2014 April Conference

[arizonaute]

lets go

[arizonaute]

no new temples this time

[arizonaute]

I like when Holland starts to testify and his voic raises a notch. His talk this morning was good

[LA Ute]

I liked Pres. Eyring's talk. All members of the church have someone to thank for accepting the message and bringing it into their family -- even if they themselves are the first to do so. My wife's and my histories have both close and remote "first adopters." Our mothers are converts; on our fathers' sides church membership goes back a few generations.

[Scorcho]

Priesthood Session was extremely good tonight. I thought all 6 talks were inspirational and moving.

[LA Ute]

Priesthood Session was extremely good tonight. I thought all 6 talks were inspirational and moving.

Agreed. I learned from every one of them.

[Scorcho]

Agreed. I learned from every one of them.

Ucthdorf putting his hand on the throttle of Air Force One with Pres. Monson telling him to "not even think about it" was a funny moment. It's always nice to hear some stories about their light-hearted side, makes them much more relatable.

[Hot Lunch]

Priesthood Session was extremely good tonight. I thought all 6 talks were inspirational and moving.

Really loved everything about Priesthood session last night. I was personally able to walk away with a lot of different areas where I can make changes in my own life. Probably the best start to finish session for me in a long time.

[LA Ute]

Really loved everything about Priesthood session last night. I was personally able to walk away with a lot of different areas where I can make changes in my own life. Probably the best start to finish session for me in a long time.

I felt exactly the same way.

[Mormon Red Death]

Packer does not Look good. I could barely understand him.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

[LA Ute]

Packer does not Look good. I could barely understand him.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

I'm a bit surprised he spoke.

[Scratch]

I'm a bit surprised he spoke.

I think he spoke because it was his final, farewell address. It was a simple, straight-forward and powerful testimony, the kind of thing you see a lot from final apostolic addresses. I mean, he didn't even get mad at anyone.

[Rocker Ute]

I mean, he didn't even get mad at anyone.

My favorite President Packer story is my dad's. They were calling a new Stake President and my dad was called in for an interview. He had a pleasant interview with the GA traveling with President Packer, and then he was up to meet with him.

Pres Packer looked at a piece of paper and said to my dad, "It says here you are an attorney. What kind of an attorney are you?" My dad joked, "Well, I'd like to think a good one."

President Packer didn't even smile, that was the end of the interview and that was that.

So now you know how to get out of being called as Stake a President quick.

[LA Ute]

My favorite President Packer story is my dad's. They were calling a new Stake President and my dad was called in for an interview. He had a pleasant interview with the GA traveling with President Packer, and then he was up to meet with him.

Pres Packer looked at a piece of paper and said to my dad, "It says here you are an attorney. What kind of an attorney are you?" My dad joked, "Well, I'd like to think a good one."

President Packer didn't even smile, that was the end of the interview and that was that.

So now you know how to get out of being called as Stake a President quick.

He spent 10 days visiting my mission back in the early '70s. We were all terrified of him but it was a very positive experience.

[DrumNFeather]

I think he spoke because it was his final, farewell address. It was a simple, straight-forward and powerful testimony, the kind of thing you see a lot from final apostolic addresses. I mean, he didn't even get mad at anyone.

Seems like we went through about 6 or so conferences where people thought that we were hearing President Hinckley's final address in general conference. I will say though, President Packer looks in rough shape, as does Elder Hales.

I looked up the ages of all of the apostles and with the bulk of them in their 80s, we could see another run here in the next few years where we lose a good chunk of the quorum.

[DrumNFeather]

GC is always very interesting to me. Because of my involvement on these boards, I'm always sensitive to what will be considered controversial opinions or talks, but at the same time, I really enjoy hearing these talks and some of the topics covered. I really enjoy hearing new seventies for the first time and what they have to say, because I always think: "Ok, if I were given one shot to address the entire church, what would my message be?"

[wuapinmon]

"I have asked the Lord about ordaining women to the priesthood. He told me 'no.'"

That's what I'd expect from a prophet; that we didn't get anything like unto it disappoints me to the point of wondering if there are any prophets in this world. Elder Oaks addressing the notion of women and the priesthood, in a priesthood meeting that they were not allowed to attend in person, seems especially vindictive. I am about done. The Church no longer brings me anything but angst.

[wuapinmon]

Does it have to be said in those words? I think it has more or less been said already many times less bluntly.



We had a prophet who got revelations in meetings and wrote them down as such, telling everyone that they were. Now we get press releases. As a convert, I expected prophecies. As a missionary I was taught to teach, and I taught, that a prophet was like a telephone line between man and God. In my life, but one thing has been added to the D&C, and that only as a Declaration. I have arrived a point where I expect more from the men I'm required to sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators than reiterations of things. Someone needs to come out and say, unequivocally, "the Lord has told us in prayer, 'no.'"

Perhaps this is a personal weakness/flaw in my character, but I need this to hang on. Otherwise, what's the point of any of it?

[USS Utah]

I doubt President Monson asked God about giving the priesthood to women because I suspect that he already knows the answer, based on what has already been revealed. One revelation states that we need not be commanded in every thing. God gave us the capacity to reason, and he invites us to use that capacity.

While, as President Uchtdorf stated in his Priesthood Session talk, that the restoration is ongoing, much of it was clearly done during the life of the prophet who got revelations in meetings, wrote them down and informed the congreation. Since then, revelation has been recieved and announced only on major questions such as ending the practice of plural marriage and blacks and the priesthood. While there are many who have raised the question of women and the priesthood, I don't think it qualifies as major.

President Benson taught that we might have recieved more revelation if we had been doing what we should with the revelations already recieved. In fact, he said we were under condemnation for not doing what we should with what we have already received.

[Sullyute]

I am about done. The Church no longer brings me anything but angst.

Wuap, if you need a break from church then take it, but please don't be gone too long. The church needs people like you. I want people like you in my church. I would love to have you in my ward. I hope that change comes soon so that your angst is minimized.


I doubt President Monson asked God about giving the priesthood to women because I suspect that he already knows the answer, based on what has already been revealed. One revelation states that we need not be commanded in every thing. God gave us the capacity to reason, and he invites us to use that capacity.

I agree with you here. Monson probably did not ask. :( Unfortunately, there are a growing number of faithful women and men who are using their God given capacity to reason, and leaving the church (mentally and/or physically). It really saddens me to see good people like Wuap have the feelings they do toward the church. We are losing too many good people because of the poor decisions made at the top of the organization.

[wuapinmon]

I doubt President Monson asked God about giving the priesthood to women because I suspect that he already knows the answer, based on what has already been revealed. One revelation states that we need not be commanded in every thing. God gave us the capacity to reason, and he invites us to use that capacity.

While, as President Uchtdorf stated in his Priesthood Session talk, that the restoration is ongoing, much of it was clearly done during the life of the prophet who got revelations in meetings, wrote them down and informed the congreation. Since then, revelation has been recieved and announced only on major questions such as ending the practice of plural marriage and blacks and the priesthood. While there are many who have raised the question of women and the priesthood, I don't think it qualifies as major.

President Benson taught that we might have recieved more revelation if we had been doing what we should with the revelations already recieved. In fact, he said we were under condemnation for not doing what we should with what we have already received.

I am weak. I find President Benson's statements facile and heavy-handed ways of propping up patriarchal hegemony in the church. The LDS Church will eventually ordain women, but I don't think I'll live to see it. I'd like to be able to blame Prop 8, women and the priesthood, or some other thing for wrecking my faith, but I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks now, and I now exactly when it happened. In 2004, in a branch council meeting, when I was serving in the branch presidency, was Scoutmaster to 8 boys, was the YM president, and was teaching seminary in my home every morning, all while raising a family and getting my PhD (and teaching), the stake president, in front of everyone, in response to my questioning why we should break up a group of 8 boys into a Scout troop, Varsity team, and Venturer crew (we didn't have the leadership for it), asked me if I was doing everything I could to serve the Lord. That question broke me. I was seething and hurt and dumbfounded that my priesthood leader could not see the enormous burdens placed on me and the effect they were having on me.

That got me to doubting the wisdom of priesthood leadership. In 2010, living in Hartsville, South Carolina and suffering from intense gallbladder pain for 18 months (they wouldn't take it out because I didn't have gallstones), in a temple-recommend interview with my bishop, he had the gall (pun intended) to ask me, seriously, if there was some unconfessed sin or misdeed in my life that was causing me to have all of the health problems I was facing. I was worthier at that point in my life than I had ever been, and I told him so. But, I wanted to raise up from the chair and pummel him. After that interview, my testimony has been sliding until it basically no longer exists beyond this: Joseph Smith was a remarkable man who created something that made my life better. I try to follow the example of Jesus Christ because it's an ethical way to live, no because I give a damn about eternal reward/punishment. Religion seems an incumberance, and I'm not longer convinced that there is a God, or that if He is there that he gives a shit about us. I've seen horrors in this world that defy description, and I've read of sufferings that make no sense if God supposedly answers prayers. If my earthly father had been as coy about helping me as God does, without explanation, then I'd call him a dick and never talk to him. I'm at a crisis of faith, and where people see answers to their prayers, I see only confirmation bias and subjective validation. The world was much simpler when faith seemed a given. Now, I am back to the agnosticism of my youth.

[USS Utah]

The people at the top are human, and will therefore make mistakes. A call to be a general authority does not change that fact. However, as has it has been taught, the Lord will not allow the the leadership of the church lead to lead the church as a whole astray. So the question is, so it seems to me, is whether God is at the helm or not.

[USS Utah]

I am weak. I find President Benson's statements facile and heavy-handed ways of propping up patriarchal hegemony in the church. The LDS Church will eventually ordain women, but I don't think I'll live to see it. I'd like to be able to blame Prop 8, women and the priesthood, or some other thing for wrecking my faith, but I've been thinking about this for a couple of weeks now, and I now exactly when it happened. In 2004, in a branch council meeting, when I was serving in the branch presidency, was Scoutmaster to 8 boys, was the YM president, and was teaching seminary in my home every morning, all while raising a family and getting my PhD (and teaching), the stake president, in front of everyone, in response to my questioning why we should break up a group of 8 boys into a Scout troop, Varsity team, and Venturer crew (we didn't have the leadership for it), asked me if I was doing everything I could to serve the Lord. That question broke me. I was seething and hurt and dumbfounded that my priesthood leader could not see the enormous burdens placed on me and the effect they were having on me.

That got me to doubting the wisdom of priesthood leadership. In 2010, living in Hartsville, South Carolina and suffering from intense gallbladder pain for 18 months (they wouldn't take it out because I didn't have gallstones), in a temple-recommend interview with my bishop, he had the gall (pun intended) to ask me, seriously, if there was some unconfessed sin or misdeed in my life that was causing me to have all of the health problems I was facing. I was worthier at that point in my life than I had ever been, and I told him so. But, I wanted to raise up from the chair and pummel him. After that interview, my testimony has been sliding until it basically no longer exists beyond this: Joseph Smith was a remarkable man who created something that made my life better. I try to follow the example of Jesus Christ because it's an ethical way to live, no because I give a damn about eternal reward/punishment. Religion seems an incumberance, and I'm not longer convinced that there is a God, or that if He is there that he gives a shit about us. I've seen horrors in this world that defy description, and I've read of sufferings that make no sense if God supposedly answers prayers. If my earthly father had been as coy about helping me as God does, without explanation, then I'd call him a dick and never talk to him. I'm at a crisis of faith, and where people see answers to their prayers, I see only confirmation bias and subjective validation. The world was much simpler when faith seemed a given. Now, I am back to the agnosticism of my youth.

We are going to disagree about President Benson and women and priesthood -- I don't see the latter ever happening.

You're stake president and bishiop did very dumb things. Are you going to walk away because of them? Any endeavor involving the participaltion of men will be subject to error because of the fallibility of men.

My great great great grandfather was falsely accused of apostasy and of collaborating with church enemies, yet he remained faithful.

When I have had my crises of faith, I have followed my father's advice: "If you have questions, read the Book of Mormon." I have done so, prayerfully, and it has made all the difference. I believe that my religion is between me and God -- the church exists to support my endeavors. If certain individuals fail to give that support, I don't blame God, instead recognizing that people are human and make mistakes, which allows me to forgive them, not for their sake but for my own. Some of the worst things we do are things we do to ourselves: the doubts we entertain, the grudges we carry, the habits we pick up. Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to get sick.

God has never been coy about helping me. No he hasn't given me everything I though I needed or deserved. It isn't because he has shielded me from adversity or hearthache. I used to beleive, when I was young and naive, that no one had challenges like I did. I felt like an outcast, not fitting in at school, at church, in the neighborhood, or even in my own family. I wondered who benefitted from all of the adversity I was experiencing. But then I realized that I was the one benefitting. Instead of asking God why he allowed certain thinigs to happen I started asking what he wanted me to learn from it. Maybe that sounds corny or cliched, but it doesn't change its value. I believe it when God says that he gives us weaknesses that we may be humble and that if we humble ourselves before him and have faith in Christ, then is his grace sufficient to turn our weaknesses into strengths. I know it is true because I have experienced it, and I have seen it in others. Because I felt like an outcast, I seem to have a capacity for compassion and understanding for other outcasts (I don't wish to brag).

But, utilmately, we each have to find our own way. My experiences can have only so much meaning to others. Like Sullyute, your pain and angst saddens me. I wish all people could find what I have found -- and if I can find it, anyone can.

[LA Ute]

Wuap, I'm short on time so will try to say more later. First, I'm sorry you are having such a painful time and I hope you can hang on until it gets better. We need you. Second, I have found that the more I learn about the Savior and his Atonement, the more wondrous and astonishing it is to me, the closer I feel to him, and the less I am bothered by the things in life (and in the church) that would otherwise not make much sense to me. I hope that helps. Tie a knot and hang on, brother!

[USS Utah]

One of my favorite quotes from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland:


Christ walked the path every mortal is called to walk so that he would know how to succor and strengthen us in our most difficult times. He knows the deepest and most personal burdens we carry. He knows the most public and poignant pains we bear. He descended below all such grief in order that he might lift us above it. There is no anguish or sorrow or sadness in life that he has not suffered in our behalf and borne away upon his own valiant and compassionate shoulders.

That aspect of the Atonement brings an additional kind of rebirth, something of immediate renewal, help, and hope that allows us to rise above sorrows and sickness, misfortunes and mistakes of every kind. With his mighty arm around us and lifting us, we face life more joyfully even as we face death more triumphantly.

[Sullyute]

The people at the top are human, and will therefore make mistakes. A call to be a general authority does not change that fact. However, as has it has been taught, the Lord will not allow the the leadership of the church lead to lead the church as a whole astray. So the question is, so it seems to me, is whether God is at the helm or not.

I actually don't think whether God is at the helm has anything to do with it. I realize that leaders are human and I honestly think that they try to seek and do the will of God, but I don't think that is enough. The leadership of the Church is not (talking collectively, not individually) accountable to the members of the church as a whole. Members are told not to write letters to church leaders, not to criticize church leaders even when they are wrong, they have no say in budgets, or where money is spent in general, they cannot remove church leaders, and have no say in policies and procedures (non-doctrinal areas). To many members the only way to voice displeasure or disagreence is with their feet. That shouldn't be the only option as it makes me very sad to lose good members of this church.

On a brighter side, I did catch Uchdorf's Sunday morning talk on gratitude. I thought it was very inspirational and inspiring. :)

[Sullyute]

I believe that my religion is between me and God -- the church exists to support my endeavors. If certain individuals fail to give that support, I don't blame God, instead recognizing that people are human and make mistakes, which allows me to forgive them, not for their sake but for my own. Some of the worst things we do are things we do to ourselves: the doubts we entertain, the grudges we carry, the habits we pick up. Holding on to anger is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to get sick.

God has never been coy about helping me. No he hasn't given me everything I though I needed or deserved. It isn't because he has shielded me from adversity or hearthache. I used to beleive, when I was young and naive, that no one had challenges like I did. I felt like an outcast, not fitting in at school, at church, in the neighborhood, or even in my own family. I wondered who benefitted from all of the adversity I was experiencing. But then I realized that I was the one benefitting. Instead of asking God why he allowed certain thinigs to happen I started asking what he wanted me to learn from it. Maybe that sounds corny or cliched, but it doesn't change its value. I believe it when God says that he gives us weaknesses that we may be humble and that if we humble ourselves before him and have faith in Christ, then is his grace sufficient to turn our weaknesses into strengths. I know it is true because I have experienced it, and I have seen it in others. Because I felt like an outcast, I seem to have a capacity for compassion and understanding for other outcasts (I don't wish to brag).

But, utilmately, we each have to find our own way. My experiences can have only so much meaning to others. Your pain and angst saddens me. I wish all people could find what I have found -- and if I can find it, anyone can.

Great post. Lots of wisdom there.

[wuapinmon]

The murder of Jessica Lunsford is all the evidence of the capriciousness of God that I need. Her murder, the fact that after she was raped and buried, they found dirt in her lungs, showing she was still alive for a time, leads me to wonder what lesson God wanted her to learn from her trials and adversity. Please, someone show me the silver lining in her murder. A child was raped, more than once, buried alive, and suffocated to death in a grave near her home, while they were looking for her. No answer I've found in religion or philosophy makes any difference to me. If God answers any kind of prayers, which I don't really think he does anymore, he should keep children from harm.

Kids die horribly every single day. They are raped and beaten. We look for "lessons," but it seems a desperate attempt to assign meaning where there is none, a subjective validation of horrendous proportions, a misbegotten effort to explain the cruelty of this world. If someone suffers but recovers, we praise the Lord for healing them. If they die, we say it was his time. My father was given a blessing and told he'd recover fully and go back to his calling as ward clerk. If he had, we'd've said it was the Lord's will and praised the blessing. He died of CJD, a disease no one has ever recovered from. We're told that the priesthood is the power to act in God's name and that priesthood blessings are using that priesthood to heal. But, we're told that the blessing will only come true if it's God's will. Subjective validation. Why give man the priesthood if it's all up to him anyway? Why even pretend that we have any say? The agnostic says, cause there's nothing to it. The atheist, there is nothing. The faithful, "We can't know, but we have to accept it."

[wuapinmon]

Oye, Wuap. I followed in your footsteps in New Orleans. I don't know or care what Presidente C thought of your service. I know the people of the NOLA branch love you for your willingness. I heard countless stories from Pres VanDam, Brother Brady, and others about you. You made a real, positive difference there. For that (and the Day of the Dead mosaic), I think really highly of you. I'm embarrassed that I haven't read the books you recommended to me yet.

I obviously don't know how to answer your questions. I break down when I hear or read of things happening to children. I can't watch movies where kids are kidnapped or harmed. But after the initial anguish (which sometimes lasts for a long time), I cling tightly to the idea of justice. We often think of justice as the bad guy and mercy as the good guy. I need to know that life is fair. Clearly, this life is not fair, but I need to know that eternal life is fair. I believe that all the injustices all around me will be made right - completely right in any and every sense of the word. Those denied opportunities will be given opportunities to their satisfaction. Those who unjustly suffered will experience enough pure joy to feel like they have been treated justly, maybe even enough to erase the pain altogether. A decent part of my faith is based on my hope in justice. It's the only coping mechanism I have.

The Van Dams are the best Mormons I've ever known; their example led me to do everything I possibly could to help the branch. I really gave my all there, heart and soul, and when President C asked me that, it was an exquisitely wretched feeling. I loved NOLA, and I'd move back in a second and probably be happy in the Church there. My ward in South Carolina sucks; it's just awful and I feel so alone in the faith. I'm probably having too much of a public pity party here, so I'll rein it in. Just now that there is never any guile in Pres or Sis Van Dam; he's a father figure to me since my dad died. I love them.

[USS Utah]

I actually don't think whether God is at the helm has anything to do with it. I realize that leaders are human and I honestly think that they try to seek and do the will of God, but I don't think that is enough. The leadership of the Church is not (talking collectively, not individually) accountable to the members of the church as a whole. Members are told not to write letters to church leaders, not to criticize church leaders even when they are wrong, they have no say in budgets, or where money is spent in general, they cannot remove church leaders, and have no say in policies and procedures (non-doctrinal areas). To many members the only way to voice displeasure or disagreence is with their feet. That shouldn't be the only option as it makes me very sad to lose good members of this church.

On a brighter side, I did catch Uchdorf's Sunday morning talk on gratitude. I thought it was very inspirational and inspiring. :)

I am struggling with how to respond to this post. I always figured that if I have a question, or even a disagreement, with something said or done by church leaders, that I could go straight to God in prayer to deal with it -- not to ask him to change it, but to help me understand or accept it.

Clearly, this church is not a democracy. The leadership is accountable to God, so it certainly matters if he is at the helm. If this is his church, it is to him that the leadership should be accountable. He is by definition all knowing and all powerful. Humans by definition are fallable. Humans decide that they want things a certain way, but they do not know what God knows. All the more reason to go to God himself, which is certainly the right of every human.

[UtahsMrSports]

Ordain Women was obviously a big part of this conference.

I have no idea if women will ever be ordained to the Priesthood. I don't think anyone can definitively say they will or they won't.

I love the structure of the church. God did not just dump everything on Joseph Smith at once and say "here you go! this is it! you have all you need!". Instead, revelations have come as issues have arisen and leaders of the church have gone to the Lord in prayer to find answers.

Here is what I do know: when the OW movement chose to disregard the polite request of the church to avoid temple square for their demonstration, they lost all credibility in my eyes. That is not to say that I believe that they are a group that has not done any good. I think that church leaders have reviewed some things and made some adjustments. Its good to include the women in saying prayers in conference. Additionally, broadcasting Priesthood live allows everyone to hear the messages.

I strongly disagree with SullyUte above. I do not believe that choices of leaders in the church are forcing people out. Quite the contrary. They have continually preached that being a member of the church will become mroe and more difficult as we approach the second coming. If someone disagrees with a church teaching, and they choose to leave, that is on them.

When it comes to general conference, there are some who take every word said without any questioning. I do not believe that is the Lord's intent. It is good to think about things that are taught and to question if something is unfamiliar. At the same time, I have heard many of the OW supporters dismiss elder Oaks talk by saying "not everything in general conference is doctrine!" Lol. You play a dangerous game when you take it upon yourself to figure out what to dismiss and what to accept.

Isn't the right approach to take to pray that you can have the spirit and take what God wants you to learn from it? I mean, why even attend or listen if you are going to accept what already believe and dismiss everything that contradicts what you believe? Its about humility, I think (something I admittedly need work on).

Just my two cents anyway.

[USS Utah]

The murder of Jessica Lunsford is all the evidence of the capriciousness of God that I need. Her murder, the fact that after she was raped and buried, they found dirt in her lungs, showing she was still alive for a time, leads me to wonder what lesson God wanted her to learn from her trials and adversity. Please, someone show me the silver lining in her murder. A child was raped, more than once, buried alive, and suffocated to death in a grave near her home, while they were looking for her. No answer I've found in religion or philosophy makes any difference to me. If God answers any kind of prayers, which I don't really think he does anymore, he should keep children from harm.

Kids die horribly every single day. They are raped and beaten. We look for "lessons," but it seems a desperate attempt to assign meaning where there is none, a subjective validation of horrendous proportions, a misbegotten effort to explain the cruelty of this world. If someone suffers but recovers, we praise the Lord for healing them. If they die, we say it was his time. My father was given a blessing and told he'd recover fully and go back to his calling as ward clerk. If he had, we'd've said it was the Lord's will and praised the blessing. He died of CJD, a disease no one has ever recovered from. We're told that the priesthood is the power to act in God's name and that priesthood blessings are using that priesthood to heal. But, we're told that the blessing will only come true if it's God's will. Subjective validation. Why give man the priesthood if it's all up to him anyway? Why even pretend that we have any say? The agnostic says, cause there's nothing to it. The atheist, there is nothing. The faithful, "We can't know, but we have to accept it."

There is no silver lining to murder -- except that death is not the end and that, because of the Atonement of Christ, those who are murdered will live again.

You are right in that we cannot always, if ever, find meaning in such trajedies as you describe.

My great great great grandfather was promised in a partriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith Sr., while still in Kirtland, Ohio, that his invalid son would be healed. After leaving Kirtland for Missouri, the son died.

Actually, it isn't God's will alone. Those giving priesthood blessings should be careful in what they promise, being as sure as possible that they are inspired by God rather than their own emotions. Then, having decided it is inspiration from God, they must have faith strong enough match it. Then those receiving the blessing must also have sufficient faith. That said, I would be loath to call into question the faith of those involved if the promise was not fulfilled in this lifetime.

I knew a missionary who visited a state hospital and, who, upon seeing a particularly afflicted child said to his companion that he wanted to go over and heal him. He even felt confident that he could do it. But then his companion asked, "do you have enough faith?" And from that moment his confidence fled.

I knew another man who was afflicted with a brain tumor. He recieved a priesthood blessing, and much of the ward fasted for him. As he was prepared for surgery, they took more x-rays (or whatever) and the tumor was gone. Years later my own mother had a brain tumor. She, too, received a priesthood blessing, but the tumor remained. She underwent surgery, and surgery on any part of the brain has long term consquences; for my mother it was losing her short term memory and the ability to memorize. So why was the first man healed, but my mother was not? I certainly cannot say. The first man's family did depend on him providing a living, while we did not so depend on my mother.

Joseph Smith once said that the mysteries of God are only found out through time and experience. My mother certainly had time and experience, as did Joseph, and I think she knew somthing of the mysteries of God before her passing. Obviously, those who are murdered are not granted time, and the experience seems unlikely to be useful.

Recall, also that God gave Joseph Smith a laundry list of awful things that could happen to him, explaining that they would be for his good, before telling him that Jesus Christ ("the son of man") had descended below them all and asking "art thou greater than he?" Any bad thing that could happen to any of God's children and more was experienced by the Savior.

You could have made a shorter post simply by quoting those who argue that the Holocaust, Hilter's Final Solution, proved that there is no God. The number killed included at least a million children, IIRC. I have given much study to the Holocuast, and have done some writing on the subject. Clearly God, if he exists, and I believe he does, allows these great evils to occur. Why he does so may be, to some, one of his great mysteries. I think I can say that it isn't always for someone's experience and learning. I was aksed in a college history class to discuss why the Holocause happened, and I gave the simple answer that Hitler ordered his people and they obeyed. Could God have stopped the Nazis? He certainly has the power to do so.

The LDS church talks a lot about agency, that it is a gift from God. An athiest (he wasn't really a friend) I once knew claimed that the belief in the agency of man was a contradiction -- in that man had a choice but that God knew what choice would be made before it was made, and thus it wasn't really a choice -- which proved error, which thus proved to him that there was no God. I responded that he was effectivly putting an obstacle in front of a supreme being, which by definition has all knowledge and all power, and saying he cannot overcome it. I pointed out that this was a contradiction, which proved his error. He had no response to that.

God, having given the gift of agency, upon which the plan of salvation depends -- if we cannot make choices, then we cannot be accountable, nor can we learn and grow, and thus there is no purpose to our mortal existance -- appears to make it a rule not to interfere with the agency of the individual. In every story I have heard or read of the still small voice giving warning to individuals, I note that in each case it is a warning to effectively get out of the way of coming danger. I am not aware of a warning which allowed the hearer to stop the actions of another person. Certainly God could interfere if he chose to, but he does not. Many believe that he should, at least in the case of some victims, but we do not know what he knows, nor we do not see things they way he does.

God allowed evil men to kill his only begotten son in the flesh. He could have stopped it, but did not. Enoch saw God weep for the wickedness of the world, wickedness he could have stopped but did not. I can only imagine how he must weep for his innocent children tortured and killed. Their blood cries out from the dust for vegeance and he has promised not to forget them -- how could he?

In the end I cannot rely on religion or philosophy alone to find the answer, though I may look for clues. It seems to me there is only one thing to be done, go to God himself to inquire if I felt so motivated. Of course, that requires that one believe that the existance of God is at least a possibility, and that communicating with him might also be possible.

[wuapinmon]

Isn't the right approach to take to pray that you can have the spirit and take what God wants you to learn from it? I mean, why even attend or listen if you are going to accept what already believe and dismiss everything that contradicts what you believe? Its about humility, I think (something I admittedly need work on).

Just my two cents anyway.

We belong to a church in which we have zero governance, zero knowledge of financial situations, zero control over budgets--local or otherwise, zero say in discipline, doctrine, or missionary matters. The Church no longer guarantees that our donations will be used in the manner we prescribe; we cannot have a missionary farewell per our traditions; funeral talks must be centered on the Resurrection--I've seen a stake president step up and blather on about the Gospel to a room full of grieving non-members who grew angrier with every passing second. Our youth programs are relics of the mid 20th-Century fear that urban and suburban landscapes were withering our cultural memory of our agrarian roots. Correlation makes church bland. The music sucks, though you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who'll say so. We're Amish in our worship music (no progress since the 19th Century). We believe in continuing revelation, but never see it and mock those who ask/wish for it.

Not attacking you, this is my two cents in response. No meanness wished nor intended.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I am struggling with how to respond to this post. I always figured that if I have a question, or even a disagreement, with something said or done by church leaders, that I could go straight to God in prayer to deal with it -- not to ask him to change it, but to help me understand or accept it.

Clearly, this church is not a democracy. The leadership is accountable to God, so it certainly matters if he is at the helm. If this is his church, it is to him that the leadership should be accountable. He is by definition all knowing and all powerful. Humans by definition fallable. Humans decides that they want things a certain way, but they do not know what God knows. All the more reason to go to God himself, which is certainly the right of every human.

And when God gives you different direction than leadership? IOW, if you can ask of God, why do people subjugate their agency to the whims of others?

[LA Ute]

The murder of Jessica Lunsford is all the evidence of the capriciousness of God that I need. Her murder, the fact that after she was raped and buried, they found dirt in her lungs, showing she was still alive for a time, leads me to wonder what lesson God wanted her to learn from her trials and adversity. Please, someone show me the silver lining in her murder. A child was raped, more than once, buried alive, and suffocated to death in a grave near her home, while they were looking for her. No answer I've found in religion or philosophy makes any difference to me. If God answers any kind of prayers, which I don't really think he does anymore, he should keep children from harm.

Kids die horribly every single day. They are raped and beaten. We look for "lessons," but it seems a desperate attempt to assign meaning where there is none, a subjective validation of horrendous proportions, a misbegotten effort to explain the cruelty of this world. If someone suffers but recovers, we praise the Lord for healing them. If they die, we say it was his time. My father was given a blessing and told he'd recover fully and go back to his calling as ward clerk. If he had, we'd've said it was the Lord's will and praised the blessing. He died of CJD, a disease no one has ever recovered from. We're told that the priesthood is the power to act in God's name and that priesthood blessings are using that priesthood to heal. But, we're told that the blessing will only come true if it's God's will. Subjective validation. Why give man the priesthood if it's all up to him anyway? Why even pretend that we have any say? The agnostic says, cause there's nothing to it. The atheist, there is nothing. The faithful, "We can't know, but we have to accept it."

Crimes against children threaten to kill something inside of me. Here's an experience I had with that horrific subject that matters to me.

Some years ago I was preparing an Easter talk, and was pretty intimidated by the task. I happened to be listening to a radio interview of a woman who had miraculously survived the gas chambers at Auschwitz. She began describing what happened to the little children in those obscene moments in those death chambers. I won't harrow you up by repeating it here. After a few seconds of listening I turned off the radio because I couldn't bear it any more.

Then it hit me, harder than any gospel lesson has ever hit me: In Gethsemane, the Savior couldn't turn off any radio. When all that horror, multiplied millions of times, was coming at him he was "sore amazed," but willingly let it pound him, full-force. It is incomprehensible. I was reduced to tears at that moment and still am now when I reflect on the experience for more than a few moments. President Eyring has taught, and I like to believe, that the Savior could have allowed the Spirit to teach him what he learned in Gethsemane and on the cross, but He chose to experience it all personally. That's quite a thought to chew on.

When Isaiah talks of the high places being made low, the rough places being made plain, I think he is talking about the day that will come when every injustice will be righted, every loss compensated for, every tear dried from every eye. It's a glorious thought, and it is what keeps me going. Without the Atonement, to me life would make no sense at at all. Thanks to Him, I can hope to bear what would otherwise be unbearable.

Neal A. Maxwell: "Even those who see life as pointless will one day point with adoration to the performance of the Man of Galilee in the crowded moments of time known as Gethsemane and Calvary. Those who now say life is meaningless will yet applaud the atonement, which saved us all from meaninglessness."

I hope that helps. When all else fails, wuap, cling to the Savior. He's there for you whenever others are not.

[USS Utah]

And when God gives you different direction than leadership? IOW, if you can ask of God, why do people subjugate their agency to the whims of others?

I can't speak for others, but I don't go in for blind faith. The whole point of having the right to go to God himself, the source for all truth, is that I don't have to do blind faith.

[USS Utah]

We belong to a church in which we have zero governance, zero knowledge of financial situations, zero control over budgets--local or otherwise, zero say in discipline, doctrine, or missionary matters. The Church no longer guarantees that our donations will be used in the manner we prescribe; we cannot have a missionary farewell per our traditions; funeral talks must be centered on the Resurrection--I've seen a stake president step up and blather on about the Gospel to a room full of grieving non-members who grew angrier with every passing second. Our youth programs are relics of the mid 20th-Century fear that urban and suburban landscapes were withering our cultural memory of our agrarian roots. Correlation makes church bland. The music sucks, though you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who'll say so. We're Amish in our worship music (no progress since the 19th Century). We believe in continuing revelation, but never see it and mock those who ask/wish for it.

Not attacking you, this is my two cents in response. No meanness wished nor intended.

When my mother died, no one gave us instructions on what we were to talk about. But, then, we had her funeral service in a funeral home, not in an LDS chapel.

It seems to be a reasonable expectation that if you attend a funeral in an LDS chapel there will be some LDS theoology discussed. To expect no LDS theology to be discussed does not seem reasonable.

I actually agree with the change on missionary farewells/homecomings -- but that might be because no one attended my homecoming. Having done something for me, I would like the church to do something for my wife and stop the practice of baby blessings in Sacrament meeting.

And here is a surprise, I have no problems with the music. On my mission one of the people we taught invited us to attend one of the weekly services of the church he attended -- something called the New Life Fellowship. For the first half hour I thought I was at a rock concert as the congregation stood and sang along to a selection of gospel music. If that's what you want, in the name of progress, you can count me out.

Many of the hymns we sing were collected at the direction of God, when Emma Smith was called by revelation to put the first hynmbook together. Elder Gene R. Cook, in a visit to my mission, said that we could consider the hymns to be scripture.

Some people, it appears, want revelation to suit themselves, and I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

When we see suffering in this world, our hearts are touched, yet there are some who, because of the suffering, appear to harden their hearts toward God, for allowing it.

Finally, I apologise if I have inadvertently mocked anyone asking for continuing revelation, for I certainly never meant to do so.

[wuapinmon]

Neal A. Maxwell: "Even those who see life as pointless will one day point with adoration to the performance of the Man of Galilee in the crowded moments of time known as Gethsemane and Calvary. Those who now say life is meaningless will yet applaud the atonement, which saved us all from meaninglessness."

I hope that helps. When all else fails, wuap, cling to the Savior. He's there for you whenever others are not.

LAU, I appreciate the thoughts, and the investment that you put into responding to me. I hope this doesn't shit all over your feelings.

The cynicism sets in when I think about even the need for a Savior. God could've made us good, yet apparently chose to make us flawed and evil and natural. He made us prize our life while cutting it short for the vast majority of humans who have existed. He requires us to earn happiness as we suffer through torments of body and mind. He is a jealous god, of whom? He speaks of mercy and justice, yet considers endless punishment for breaking his rules in this brief life. He demands forgiveness and demands morals, yet seems entirely amoral sometimes (e.g. Nephi killing Laban. the Holocaust, Rwanda 1994). He created me, without me asking him to, and then seeks to push the responsibility for all of my actions onto me, all while demanding that I worship him as righteous and perfect when all I see is suffering that he could, apparently, prevent, if he gave a damn/was his divine will/prelapsarian fit into his plot/postlapsarian fit into his plot. He's the most obtuse father ever, if he's even there at all. That's where I am, brother, and it sucks. I wish I could see the Savior as necessary, but all I see is a story about a Father who creates one perfect kid, gives the rest of them flaws, on purpose (no parent I know would ever do that), tells them they all have to behave, kills the only one who ever does, and then demands that the rest of them eat his flesh and blood once a week to redeem themselves from being made in his image? WTF? I'm past redemption. I think the example of Christ to follow is the humanist one. I don't need a Savior, just an example of how to strive to be.

[UtahsMrSports]

We belong to a church in which we have zero governance, zero knowledge of financial situations, zero control over budgets--local or otherwise, zero say in discipline, doctrine, or missionary matters. The Church no longer guarantees that our donations will be used in the manner we prescribe; we cannot have a missionary farewell per our traditions; funeral talks must be centered on the Resurrection--I've seen a stake president step up and blather on about the Gospel to a room full of grieving non-members who grew angrier with every passing second. Our youth programs are relics of the mid 20th-Century fear that urban and suburban landscapes were withering our cultural memory of our agrarian roots. Correlation makes church bland. The music sucks, though you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who'll say so. We're Amish in our worship music (no progress since the 19th Century). We believe in continuing revelation, but never see it and mock those who ask/wish for it.

Not attacking you, this is my two cents in response. No meanness wished nor intended.

None taken. Though i happen to disagree wtih you, I appreciate the sharing of opinions.

[UtahsMrSports]

When my mother died, no one gave us instructions on what we were to talk about. But, then, we had her funeral service in a funeral home, not in an LDS chapel.

It seems to be a reasonable expectation that if you attend a funeral in an LDS chapel there will be some LDS theoology discussed. To expect no LDS theology to be discussed does not seem reasonable.

I actually agree with the change on missionary farewells/homecomings -- but that might be because no one attended my homecoming. Having done something for me, I would like the church to do something for my wife and stop the practice of baby blessings in Sacrament meeting.

And here is a surprise, I have no problems with the music. On my mission one of the people we taught invited us to attend one of the weekly services of the church he attended -- something called the New Life Fellowship. For the first half hour I thought I was at a rock concert as the congregation stood and sang along to a selection of gospel music. If that's what you want, in the name of progress, you can count me out.

Many of the hymns we sing were collected at the direction of God, when Emma Smith was called by revelation to put the first hynmbook together. Elder Gene R. Cook, in a visit to my mission, said that we could consider the hymns to be scripture.

Some people, it appears, want revelation to suit themselves, and I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.

When we see suffering in this world, our hearts are touched, yet there are some who, because of the suffering, appear to harden their hearts toward God, for allowing it.

Finally, I apologise if I have inadvertently mocked anyone asking for continuing revelation, for I certainly never meant to do so.

This is spot on.

[USS Utah]

I think to understand the Atonement -- the need for it, etc. -- one must first understand the Fall.

I am reminded of a discussion at my history group with an old friend -- one of the original members of the group -- from Alabama, an atheist or agnostic, and an engineer (worked at NASA in Huntsville).

Out of frustration one day I suggested that he was so wrapped up in efficiency that it was all he could see. He responded that it was a fair criticism as it was his nature to look for efficiency and logic in everthing.

My friend suggested that God, being all powerful, logically would have had no problem making who were infallible in the first place. I answered, "Of course he could, but what would be the point?"

God: "Here is the plan."
Man: "Sounds great, there's just one thing wrong with it."

Instead of living in some dreamlike paradiscal state, with no knowledge of good and evil, and without an understanding of how good the paradiscal state is, we live in a telestial world where we can taste the bitter so that we may know to prize the sweet.

[DrumNFeather]

I think to understand the Atonement -- the need for it, etc. -- one must first understand the Fall.

I am reminded of a discussion at my history group with an old friend -- one of the original members of the group -- from Alabama, an atheist or agnostic, and an engineer (worked at NASA in Huntsville).

Out of frustration one day I suggested that he was so wrapped up in efficiency that it was all he could see. He responded that it was a fair criticism as it was his nature to look for efficiency and logic in everthing.

My friend suggested that God, being all powerful, logically would have had no problem making who were infallible in the first place. I answered, "Of course he could, but what would be the point?"

God: "Here is the plan."
Man: "Sounds great, there's just one thing wrong with it."

Instead of living in some dreamlike paradiscal state, with no knowledge of good and evil, and without an understanding of how good the paradiscal state is, we live in a telestial world where we can taste the bitter so that we may know to prize the sweet.

I boiled it down to Risk in an EQ lesson a few weeks ago. I have a book called Against the Gods: The Remarkable Story of Risk. It essentially talks about how everything since the beginning of time comes down to human beings desire to test the fates with the strong belief that someone, lady luck, will intervene on their behalf and tip the odds in their favor. The plan of salvation from the very beginning (according to LDS theology) follows a similar pattern. If you believe there was indeed a war in heaven, then on the one hand you have God's plan - which essentially asks us to bet on ourselves, providing a savior when we fall. On the other hand, you have a plan that offers no risk. A risk-free existence sounds pretty nice no? So for us, the way we have to try to make it through our daily lives (because eternity is not tangible enough to set aside as a serious goal on a day to day basis) we have to continue to bet on ourselves and allow our actions to reflect that. Should we fall, we know what we need to do in that case as well. And so the cycle goes.

I also believe (gospel according to me) that both plans are flawed because they rely on humans to execute them. A risk-free existence isn't a legitimate possibility, IMO, because even with the almighty presenting a plan, revolution occurred. Thus any way things happened it was inevitable.

[wally]

The murder of Jessica Lunsford .... "

I hear you here wuap. This sort of thing makes my insides want to fall out. I don't have any answers for why a loving God would allow this to happen, but in my simple mind the fact that this stuff happens, and all too often, makes me want to believe in eternal/ultimate justice and mercy even more. When I encounter the ugliness of life, I cannot accept that there is nothing after this. That children who anonymously suffered the same fate that Jessica did, don't matter. That the sum total of our existence is to perpetuate our genetic code and that the only meaning that we attribute to life comes from our individual or collective imaginations. Because like it or not humanism is by necessity a construct of man and only matters in that context. Meaning if that asteroid hits earth and wipes us out, or if we choke to death on our own pollution before we find a way to colonize off-world, or what ever our extinction event ends up being, that humanism for all of the merit we attribute to it will be worth zip. It will be as if our little growth of mold on the ass-end of the universe finally died and no one cares. I can go on and wax even more nihilistic, but I cannot accept that other "little Jessicas" out there whose names were never recorded don't matter and that it as if they never were. Because of suffering I HAVE to believe that there is some greater power at play that will heal things, because without that healing, why have I even brought more life into this world if only for my own selfish indulgence to add meaning to my own life which is only destined to blend into the human tapestry that will eventually whither and then burn when the sun goes supernova. The only hope for mankind outside of a loving God is the church of star trek the next generation and, frankly, I think we'd kill ourselves off before that ever happenes.

[jrj84105]

I remember in college standing in front of the hominid display and wondering who the first one was to figure out that it was all pointless endless suffering and cruelty punctuated by transient happiness? How did he cope with that realization while lacking the narratives and mythology that eons of culture have contributed to insulate us from the harshness of this reality? How would it feel to be Adam- to be the first to become aware of good, evil, and mortality with no preconceived narrative for understanding and accepting this awareness?

I find the Mormon take on Gethsemane to be incredibly uplifting even completely divorced from a belief in god or redemption in an afterlife. To me it means that human redemption comes from empathy and shouldering one another's burdens. That even though our awareness of suffering, evil, and mortality doesn't allow us to escape it, our ability to care for one another prevents us from having to experience most of it alone. The garden of Gethesename narrative is only topped by Louis CK's food chain bit for appreciating the transcendant benefits of being human.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uur0e7zbRGU

[Sullyute]

no new temples this time

I am not surprised by this. They announced a temple in Star Valley Wyoming two years ago and have not even broken ground yet.

[Viking]

I should mention that I have an abiding and prounf belief in God. But mine is more a benevolent organizerand guide than he is a controller. In fact, the evils that take place emphasize my view of God (as much as I abhor those acts of evil). God lets them happen because he gave us freewill. If he intervened, he'd cease to be God. I pray for his mercy but know that I'm responsible for my destiny. And thank God for that.

[wuapinmon]

I still wish it could somehow all be true but it just is not.

That is the desire of my heart.

[Viking]

That is the desire of my heart.

Wuap, my only advice would be to not formally leave. I did that and I think it was a mistake. I'd rather be a force for change inside (reformist movement) than outside altogether.

The Mormon church is ultimately a business organization and so I think they'll adapt over time.

We have significant jewish ancestry, my closest friends have always been jewish and all of my partners are jewish so we've thought about converting to reformed judaism but can't really get excited about much of any sort of formalized religion right now. I think it will happen but we are taking the next ten years to decide. Maybe, just maybe, when the Mormon church accepts the truth about what it really is, I might be back as a cultural member.

I have never believed in Jesus--and still don't--and the idea of a there being a devil is just silly to me so going to another Christian religion is not even a consideration (i think you have to be scared of the devil to be a de facto christian, which is just weird to me).

I scream far too much to be a buddhist or practice eastern religion.

[Sullyute]

Viking at podium at Fast & Testimony meeting, "[I want to bear my testimony of the Church]
The core message is POWERFUL. The people are generally great people. I love that I was raised Mormon and I'm very proud of my heritage.[In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.]"

Works for me. Thanks for sharing.

[Viking]

Viking at podium at Fast & Testimony meeting, "[I want to bear my testimony of the Church][In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.]"

Works for me. Thanks for sharing.

Ha. I actually said something similar other than the Jesus part at a family reunion. I will always be proud of my family my upbringing and my values

[jrj84105]

We have significant jewish ancestry, my closest friends have always been jewish and all of my partners are jewish so we've thought about converting to reformed judaism but can't really get excited about much of any sort of formalized religion right now. I think it will happen but we are taking the next ten years to decide. Maybe, just maybe, when the Mormon church accepts the truth about what it really is, I might be back as a cultural member.

I have never believed in Jesus--and still don't--and the idea of a there being a devil is just silly to me so going to another Christian religion is not even a consideration (i think you have to be scared of the devil to be a de facto christian, which is just weird to me).

I scream far too much to be a buddhist or practice eastern religion.

when you start your church for atheist cultural Mormons let me know. I am deeply, deeply jealous of my Jewish friends and colleagues who are able to raise their children with a sense of cultural heritage and belonging but without the religious baggage. As it stands, it is very hard to impart a cultural heritage and traditions outside of the framework of the church. My Catholic wife converted to Jack Mormonism and we are trying to raise potentially the first ever second generation jack Mormon. We have a glass of wine or beerduring FHE, which so far is our most successful Jack Mormon tradition

[wuapinmon]

I have never believed in Jesus--and still don't--and the idea of a there being a devil is just silly to me so going to another Christian religion is not even a consideration (i think you have to be scared of the devil to be a de facto christian, which is just weird to me).

I scream far too much to be a buddhist or practice eastern religion.

I don't believe there's a devil......but I do believe that evil exists. I don't think it's shades following us around like Tom & Jerry's shoulder angels and demons, but there is something evil in some people. I don't let my kids play with a little boy in our town because he is a Dexter/sociopath in the making. The kid, literally, never feels any remorse. He'll get caught in an out-and-out lie about injuring his little brother, and all he ever cares about is not getting into trouble, but making people believe his lie. He gives me the chills.

The last line made me snort.

[cowboy]

I don't believe there's a devil......but I do believe that evil exists. I don't think it's shades following us around like Tom & Jerry's shoulder angels and demons, but there is something evil in some people. I don't let my kids play with a little boy in our town because he is a Dexter/sociopath in the making. The kid, literally, never feels any remorse. He'll get caught in an out-and-out lie about injuring his little brother, and all he ever cares about is not getting into trouble, but making people believe his lie. He gives me the chills.

The last line made me snort.
wuap, I don't have time to write much as I'm just leaving for work, but give me a call sometime. I'll be back in SC someday, and we'll go out for a long dinner.

To the rest of you, I miss a lot of you old CUFers, and wish you'd stop by more. Also, this is a far more respectful and less cynical conference thread than anything to be found on CS, and I've enjoyed reading it. This is irony. Thanks for your insights, folks.

[wuapinmon]

wuap, I don't have time to write much as I'm just leaving for work, but give me a call sometime. I'll be back in SC someday, and we'll go out for a long dinner.

To the rest of you, I miss a lot of you old CUFers, and wish you'd stop by more. Also, this is a far more respectful and less cynical conference thread than anything to be found on CS, and I've enjoyed reading it. This is irony. Thanks for your insights, folks.

cowboy,

Thanks, man. I am still in Costa Rica and won't be home until August. I'll call you when I get back to the States, and the next time you're in SC, or I'm in Wyoming, we'll get together.

[Rocker Ute]

I don't believe there's a devil......but I do believe that evil exists. I don't think it's shades following us around like Tom & Jerry's shoulder angels and demons, but there is something evil in some people. I don't let my kids play with a little boy in our town because he is a Dexter/sociopath in the making. The kid, literally, never feels any remorse. He'll get caught in an out-and-out lie about injuring his little brother, and all he ever cares about is not getting into trouble, but making people believe his lie. He gives me the chills.

The last line made me snort.

I think fundamentally it is far easier to believe in a devil than it is to believe in God. I remember reading a book called, "Bless Me Ultima". It was a while ago so my details may be messed up. As I remember, the protagonist in this particular story goes into the desert and prays to the devil to reveal himself, and nothing happens. He concludes that of course the devil wouldn't reveal himself, because then he would know there was a devil.

I've always thought that interesting. Particularly when I see so many people who find that they can't relate to a god for whatever reason. I always think, "If I was the devil, that's how I would do it... genius..." ;)

[Sullyute]

I don't think I agree with this. On a church wide level, we recently saw a few counterexamples: "What's that? Women saying the prayers in general conference? Sure. Wish we'd thought of that." "No, we will keep the priesthood session attendance as is, but as a compromise, we'll broadcast it live, ok?" Another that comes to mind is the new youth curriculum. This is a clear response to modern education trends promoting active learning over traditional lectures.

On a local level, I usually feel like I am heard. I have been in enough ward councils to know that good opinions and ideas are appreciated. It feels bad when one of my ideas is shot down, but sometimes my ideas are adopted. The Church has been pretty clear about adapting the handbook to local needs, and my wards have taken advantage of that.

I'm not sure what you have in mind, but when I read these two posts, I thought of community meetings on the sitcom Parks & Rec. Chaos.

With 3000 stakes and 15,000 wards worldwide, there is definitely going to be some variance on how things are run on a local level. I am glad to hear that you feel that your ideas and concerns are being addressed (at least locally). I would love more financial transparency in the church. I don't need to know the net worth or annual income, but I think as members we should be entitled to know where funds are being spent. I would be happy with just percentages. So a report that says in 2013, 15% of expenses were for temple building and maintenance, 18% for ward and stake budgets, 10% for savings, 35% for Church colleges and universities, 21% for institutes and seminaries, 8% for humanitarian causes, 15% for employee costs, 10% for missionary work, etc. I feel like we should have a better idea of where the funds go beyond "we have audited the church records and everything is accounted for."

I agree that there is constant change in the church as it expands and grows with time and technology. I am happy that the curriculum is being updated, as it was decades overdue. I also realize that they church does lots of surveys to find out what members think, the temple ceremony was altered based on member feedback. It does seem that many changes come from the bottom up, but they also seem to come at effort from individuals who have to fight and scratch to get this change. Also the ordain women didn't care about getting to watch the priesthood session, they are trying to bring attention to women wanting more equity in the church. So the church made a concession that the sisters were not really looking for. But that is a whole other thread.

I realize that I am asking a giant corporation to act like a nimble start up. It may just be a pipe dream to be able to let everyone be involved and be heard. I have tried to do this on a local level and have been able to find my own little patch of heaven (or at least acceptance), but it hurts me when I hear or read about others that struggle or leave. I know the church cannot be all things to all people but I do think that with a few minor changes it could be more inviting to our brothers and sisters on the outskirts.


I have the day off, so I plan on spamming y'all with unfinished thoughts all day. Keep'em coming. :)

[Viking]

Wuap, I've been thinking about you my man.

I love the Life of Pi, and the punchline "and so it goes with God," may apply to both of us.

Which version of the story do you prefer to believe? Which makes you happier? Maybe that's all that matters.

[wuapinmon]

Wuap, I've been thinking about you my man.

I love the Life of Pi, and the punchline "and so it goes with God," may apply to both of us.

Which version of the story do you prefer to believe? Which makes you happier? Maybe that's all that matters.

The story with the animals is the better story; it used to make me happier. Now, I think I'd rather just know that the tiger was me.

El tiempo es la sustancia de que estoy hecho.
El tiempo es un río que me arrebata, pero yo soy el río;
es un tigre que me destroza, pero yo soy el tigre;
es un fuego que me consume, pero yo soy el fuego.
El 'mundo, desgraciadamente, es real;
yo, desgraciadamente, soy wuapinmon