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LA Ute
02-22-2013, 09:21 AM
I want to try a thread for believers of any faith. This is not intended for sectarian debate or criticizing any religion or church. It's really a place for for believers, or people who want to believe, or for people who wish they could believe, to discuss their personal faith journey. I'm glad vBulletin allows us to set up these interest group-oriented threads. Let's see how this goes.

By way of introduction, as most of you probably know I am what I call a convinced Mormon. That means I believe all the church's restorationist claims and try my best to live its teachings. I'm unsuccessful in that effort daily, but I try. That doesn't mean I don't have questions or that I am blind to the church's warts. Meanwhile, having grown up in Utah and then lived for many years in L.A. I've come to appreciate, admire and even cherish the faith and traditions of others.

I'll start by borrowing the photo I posed in the astronomy thread of the Sombrero Galaxy:

http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt318/lowellbrown/sombrero.jpg

As I noted there, this galaxy is 28 million light years from Earth. It has 800 billion suns and is 50,000 light years across.

The vastness of the universe always causes me to think of what to me is the most stunning teaching of my church (and, in different ways, other churches). One of my favorite scriptures is in Moses 7:30:


And were it possible that man could number the particles of the earth, yea, millions of earths like this, it would not be a beginning to the number of thy creations; and thy curtains are stretched out still; and yet thou art there, and thy bosom is there; and also thou art just; thou art merciful and kind forever....

I choose to believe that God is the creator of all that vast universe, and yet still knows my name, and the name of every human being in all of history -- past or present. And that is stunning to me. It is a huge concept, and it's difficult to get my mind around it. But I try.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/10/you-matter-to-him?lang=eng&query=paradox):


And while we may look at the vast expanse of the universe and say, “What is man in comparison to the glory of creation?” God Himself said we are the reason He created the universe! His work and glory—the purpose for this magnificent universe—is to save and exalt mankind. In other words, the vast expanse of eternity, the glories and mysteries of infinite space and time are all built for the benefit of ordinary mortals like you and me. Our Heavenly Father created the universe that we might reach our potential as His sons and daughters.

This is a paradox of man: compared to God, man is nothing; yet we are everything to God. While against the backdrop of infinite creation we may appear to be nothing, we have a spark of eternal fire burning within our breast. We have the incomprehensible promise of exaltation—worlds without end—within our grasp. And it is God’s great desire to help us reach it....the most powerful Being in the universe is the Father of your spirit. He knows you. He loves you with a perfect love.

God sees you not only as a mortal being on a small planet who lives for a brief season—He sees you as His child. He sees you as the being you are capable and designed to become. He wants you to know that you matter to Him.



These are the kinds of ideas that keep me going every day.

SeattleUte
02-22-2013, 02:25 PM
The believer thread is an air ball. lol

SavaUte
02-22-2013, 02:28 PM
I think we are just less outspoken

IdahoUteTroutHead
02-22-2013, 02:29 PM
Agree with you Seattle. Hard to give much creedence to a quote about outer space from an airline pilot.

LA Ute
02-22-2013, 02:49 PM
Agree with you Seattle. Hard to give much creedence to a quote about outer space from an airline pilot.


The believer thread is an air ball. lol

http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc366/PlagueEleven/Smileys/icon_rolleyes.gif You guys probably are the type that wander in the women's rest room because you don't read the sign before entering.

LA Ute
02-23-2013, 07:48 PM
OK, it looks like this thread hasn't exactly caught fire. Yet. Probably because my first post makes it looks like I intended some kind of board testimony meeting. Not so!

Anyway, for now I'll just note that one thing I like about all Christian churches is choirs. I like singing in them and I like listening to them. I'm singing in our stake's choir tonight and tomorrow morning.

Any other choir aficionados out there?

tooblue
02-23-2013, 08:19 PM
OK, it looks like this thread hasn't exactly caught fire. Yet. Probably because my first post makes it looks like I intended some kind of board testimony meeting. Not so!

Anyway, for now I'll just note that one thing I like about all Christian churches is choirs. I like singing in them and I like listening to them. I'm singing in our stake's choir tonight and tomorrow morning.

Any other choir aficionados out there?

Don't let the nay sayers bring you down LA. Great idea for a thread. I consider myself a devout Mormon. I love my faith and it's cultural peculiarities. Perhaps, what brings me the most comfort is the simple yet, profound teaching of the following verse, from the book of Mormon:

“Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.” 2 Nephi 2:25

In response to the above scripture and by way of abstract connection to your opening post, as a part of my personal philosophy I have written:

"Am I an act of creation that has been added to a grand narrative with a perpetual archive … is my purpose to extricate myself from that narrative, write my own text and create a new archive as infinite as my own existence?

My faith helps me feel very much a part of the vastness of the universe as you describe it ... as if I am not merely a part of it but, that have a part in it.

LA Ute
02-24-2013, 12:01 AM
If you came this way,
Taking any route, starting from anywhere,
At any time or at any season,
It would always be the same: you would have to put off
Sense and notion. You are not here to verify,
Instruct yourself, or inform curiosity
Or carry report. You are here to kneel
Where prayer has been valid.

--T. S. Eliot, “Little Gidding” (http://allspirit.co.uk/gidding.html)

midnightversion
02-24-2013, 08:13 AM
I believe in Mormonism as established by Joseph Smith; that would include the United Order, plural marriage, the original garments and endowments, etc. I believe with all my heart. My religion defines who I am and who I want to become.

LA Ute
02-24-2013, 08:31 AM
I believe in Mormonism as established by Joseph Smith; that would include the United Order, plural marriage, the original garments and endowments, etc. I believe with all my heart. My religion defines who I am and who I want to become.

Good to see you here, MV, and thanks for joining this thread. This is a great addition.

Moliere
02-26-2013, 06:25 AM
OK, it looks like this thread hasn't exactly caught fire. Yet. Probably because my first post makes it looks like I intended some kind of board testimony meeting. Not so!

Anyway, for now I'll just note that one thing I like about all Christian churches is choirs. I like singing in them and I like listening to them. I'm singing in our stake's choir tonight and tomorrow morning.

Any other choir aficionados out there?

I hate church choirs. I was once "called" to sing in the stake choir. I accepted and didn't show up. I figured I'm not supposed to turn down a calling but I also hate choirs, so voila.

I'm a believer so don't even try and kick me out of this thread.

LA Ute
02-26-2013, 06:42 AM
I hate church choirs. I was once "called" to sing in the stake choir. I accepted and didn't show up. I figured I'm not supposed to turn down a calling but I also hate choirs, so voila.

I'm a believer so don't even try and kick me out of this thread.

This thread is about what believers like about their faiths. But I like Christianity's teachings about forgiveness, so I forgive you.

Moliere
02-26-2013, 07:07 AM
This thread is about what believers like about their faiths. But I like Christianity's teachings about forgiveness, so I forgive you.

I like that LA Ute and I belong to the same church and are both fully participating members. That's a pretty cool church that would allow two very different people to both be in leadership positions.

I also like doing service. This weekend I'm going to help a church friend move. Then the weekend after that I'm going to clean up the yard of a widower in my ward. Some of these service opportunities only arise through the connections I make at church and I come away from serving, every single time, feeling better than when I started.

LA Ute
02-26-2013, 07:41 AM
I like that LA Ute and I belong to the same church and are both fully participating members. That's a pretty cool church that would allow two very different people to both be in leadership positions.

I also like doing service. This weekend I'm going to help a church friend move. Then the weekend after that I'm going to clean up the yard of a widower in my ward. Some of these service opportunities only arise through the connections I make at church and I come away from serving, every single time, feeling better than when I started.

Good post. You and I are not so different.

tooblue
02-26-2013, 08:35 AM
I love the following two quotes:


"I am all at once what Christ is, since he was what I am.”—Gerard Manley Hopkins
http://www.poets.org/poet.php/prmPID/284


“The only begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”—Thomas Aquinas
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aquinas/

SuperGabers
02-28-2013, 07:21 AM
Here. Let me help:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlbDHejQFV4

LA Ute
03-03-2013, 12:11 PM
Bump. We need a Catholic or a Hindu believer in here. Another Mo would be fine too.:stirthepot:

DC Ute
03-08-2013, 07:21 AM
I believe in Mormonism as established by Joseph Smith; that would include the United Order, plural marriage, the original garments and endowments, etc. I believe with all my heart. My religion defines who I am and who I want to become.

The original garments? Can you still get those? Aren't they hot in the Summer?

DC Ute
03-08-2013, 07:25 AM
I'm also a Mormon. I believe in God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost. I also believe in the restoration. I believe in Jesus' teachings. I don't live them very well. I have a hard time with the current corporate Church. But I stick around anyway.

wuapinmon
03-08-2013, 07:56 AM
Argumentum OrnithologicumI shut my eyes and glimpse a flock of birds. The image lasts for a second or even less; I don't know how many birds I saw. Was the number finite or infinite? The problem concerns the existence of God. If He exists, the number is finite, because He knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is infinite, because no one could keep tally. In my case, let us say I saw fewer than ten birds and more than one but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which is not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. This integer is inconceivable; therefore, God exists.
[1952]



--Jorge Luis Borges

LA Ute
03-08-2013, 08:08 AM
I'm also a Mormon. I believe in God, Jesus & the Holy Ghost. I also believe in the restoration. I believe in Jesus' teachings. I don't live them very well. I have a hard time with the current corporate Church.

I've been thinking about this. It often drives me nuts too. I write it off to our culture and to the human factor, and try to refocus on the truly rewarding parts of membership. That response has become habitual for me. But I do think that the believers among us have to be vigilant about protecting the more vulnerable among us from the oddities of LDS culture. Interestingly, in my experience those oddities crop up most often where there is a high concentration of long-time members. That is not a knock at Utah; I've seen it here in SoCal too.

CardiacCoug
03-09-2013, 09:03 AM
Argumentum Ornithologicum

I shut my eyes and glimpse a flock of birds. The image lasts for a second or even less; I don't know how many birds I saw. Was the number finite or infinite? The problem concerns the existence of God. If He exists, the number is finite, because He knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is infinite, because no one could keep tally. In my case, let us say I saw fewer than ten birds and more than one but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which is not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. This integer is inconceivable; therefore, God exists.
[1952]



--Jorge Luis Borges

I don't get it.

LA Ute
03-09-2013, 09:58 AM
I don't get it.

You're not supposed to get Borges. ;)

tooblue
03-09-2013, 10:05 AM
You're not supposed to get Borges. ;)

It's lovely and perfectly Borgesian.

Viking
03-09-2013, 02:46 PM
The believer thread is an air ball. lol

Swish!

LA Ute
03-10-2013, 03:08 PM
C.S. Lewis on forgiveness: (http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2013/03/10/c-s-lewis-explains-why-forgiveness-makes-you-feel-better/)

CardiacCoug
03-10-2013, 05:03 PM
Gene England:


It is in the Church especially that those with the gifts of vulnerability, pain, handicap, need, ignorance, intellectual arrogance, social pride, even prejudice and sin—those Paul calls the members that “seem to be more feeble”—can be accepted, learned from, helped, and made part of the body so that together we can all be blessed. It is there that those of us with the more comely and world-honored gifts of riches and intelligence can learn what we most need—to serve and love and patiently learn from those with other gifts.

But that is very hard for the “rich” and “wise” to do. And that is why those who have one of those dangerous gifts tend to misunderstand and sometimes disparage the Church— which, after all, is made up of the common and unclean, the middle-class, middle-brow, politically unsophisticated, even prejudiced, average members. And we all know how exasperating they can be! I am convinced that in the exasperation lies our salvation, if we can let the context that most brings it out—the Church—also be our school for unconditional love.

LA Ute
03-10-2013, 05:18 PM
Gene England:

He was a great man. I had the privilege of knowing him, even had an Institute class from him at the U. He taught that principle of "dangerous gifts" often. He cared a lot about it.

Jeff Lebowski
03-10-2013, 05:54 PM
Gene England:

That's a great quote.

Moliere
03-10-2013, 05:57 PM
Argumentum OrnithologicumI shut my eyes and glimpse a flock of birds. The image lasts for a second or even less; I don't know how many birds I saw. Was the number finite or infinite? The problem concerns the existence of God. If He exists, the number is finite, because He knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is infinite, because no one could keep tally. In my case, let us say I saw fewer than ten birds and more than one but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which is not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. This integer is inconceivable; therefore, God exists.
[1952]



--Jorge Luis Borges

This is a perfect quote. Thanks for sharing wuap.

Viking
03-10-2013, 06:45 PM
He was a great man. I had the privilege of knowing him, even had an Institute class from him at the U. He taught that principle of "dangerous gifts" often. He cared a lot about it.

Gene was a great guy. I got to know him very well while at BYU.

I always considered him more a crusader than an intellect, but that does not diminish his legacy.

SoonerCoug
03-11-2013, 05:43 PM
Are nonbelievers allowed to post in the believer thread?

LA Ute
03-11-2013, 05:46 PM
Are nonbelievers allowed to post in the believer thread?

Of course. But if you want to stay on my good side (and I know that is important to you) you'll respect these wishes from the first post in the thread:


I want to try a thread for believers of any faith. This is not intended for sectarian debate or criticizing any religion or church. It's really a place for for believers, or people who want to believe, or for people who wish they could believe, to discuss their personal faith journey. I'm glad vBulletin allows us to set up these interest group-oriented threads. Let's see how this goes.

As you can see, I tried to be (relatively) inclusive. Come on in. ;)

ADMIRALUTE
03-12-2013, 05:12 PM
This is my "introduction" post from another thread that explains my faith.



Probably no surprise to 480ute as seen in previous UFN posts, I'm a devout non-denominational Christian who believes wholeheartedly in Christ as my Lord and Savior, and stands up for my faith and principles regardless of who criticizes or condemns. Grew up in Utah in a non-religious home, but identified myself with Catholicism due to my mom. My step-mom was Mormon and my dad a non-practicing Jew. My turning point came when I joined the Navy at 22 and born-again later that year, although I had nobody in my life who pointed me in that direction. I was young, dumb, and without direction until God intervened...brought me to my knees and saved me. I was never promised an easy life thereafter and life in many areas became harder; even had my momentary doubts, but the MORE I read His word, the closer I am with Him and even more I believe. I don't judge non-believers nor do I condemn them, but hope all would come to know the God that I do. Growing up in the surroundings and circumstances that I did, I have no business of being a Christian today...unless?????

LA Ute
03-13-2013, 12:16 PM
White smoke from the Vatican. We'll know who the new pope is within the hour.

Diehard Ute
03-13-2013, 01:17 PM
White smoke from the Vatican. We'll know who the new pope is within the hour.

Pope Franics I, formerly Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina, first non European Pope in over 1,000 years. And first from the America's

tooblue
03-13-2013, 02:27 PM
This is my "introduction" post from another thread that explains my faith.

Welcome.

LA Ute
03-16-2013, 10:51 PM
Tonight I am a chaperone at this month's tri-stake dance. It is light duty and the kids are having fun. I will probably go home with Taylor Swift songs playing in my head. All night.

scottie
03-16-2013, 11:13 PM
Great thread to post that in, LA. :highfive:

LA Ute
03-16-2013, 11:27 PM
Great thread to post that in, LA. :highfive:

I wouldn't be here at this dance if I weren't a believer. :D

UteBeliever aka Port
03-17-2013, 09:59 AM
Watching Music and the Spoken Word this A.M. since I'm home from church with my puking 3 year old.

The choir performed Mack Willberg's arrangement of Come Thou Fount.

Still puts me to tears... in spite of my waxing or waning stages of belief.

It used to be the music that touched me. Now it's the words.



Here I raise my Ebenezer,
Hither by Thy help I’m come;
And I hope, by Thy good pleasure,
Safely to arrive at home.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.

LA Ute
03-17-2013, 10:25 AM
Watching Music and the Spoken Word this A.M. since I'm home from church with my puking 3 year old.

The choir performed Mack Willberg's arrangement of Come Thou Fount.

Still puts me to tears... in spite of my waxing or waning stages of belief.

It used to be the music that touched me. Now it's the words.

My favorite arrangement of my favorite hymn.

Here's a biographical summary (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/o/comethou.htm) of the author, Robert Robinson. The music is a traditional tune named "Nettleton (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/w/y/wyeth_j.htm)."

A performance:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUhU0HgTq94" target="_blank

wuapinmon
03-18-2013, 12:34 PM
I don't get it.

If god exists, the number of birds he saw is conceivable because it is known. When he breaks down the number to not-9, not-8, etc, then it creates an inconceivable number, which cannot exist, meaning that the amount exists, ergo, God exists. Modus tollendo tollens.


You're not supposed to get Borges. ;)

Oh, but you're wrong. He says everything so succinctly. He wrote no novels because the short story was long enough to convey everything that needed to be said. He's like a charmingly concise Isaiah.


It's lovely and perfectly Borgesian.

Amen.


This is a perfect quote. Thanks for sharing wuap.

De nada. I have many many more.


If life's meaning were explained to us, we probably wouldn't understand it. To think that a man can find it is absurd. We can live without understanding what the world is or who we are. The important things are the ethical instinct and the intellectual instinct, are they not? The intellectual instinct is the one that makes us search while knowing that we are never going to find the answer. I think Lessing said that if God were to declare that in His right hand He had the truth and in his left hand He had the investigation of the truth, Lessing would ask God to open His left hand - he would want God to give him the investigation of the truth, not the truth itself. Of course he would want that, because the investigation permits infinite hypotheses, and the truth is only one, and that does not suit the intellect, because the intellect needs curiosity. In the past, I tried to believe in a personal God, but I do not think I try anymore. I remember in that respect an admirable expression of Bernard Shaw: ''God is in the making.''

Cf. http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/08/31/reviews/borges-barili.html

Senioritis
03-18-2013, 12:40 PM
Watching Music and the Spoken Word this A.M. since I'm home from church with my puking 3 year old.

The choir performed Mack Willberg's arrangement of Come Thou Fount.

Still puts me to tears... in spite of my waxing or waning stages of belief.

It used to be the music that touched me. Now it's the words.


My second oldest was the loner kid in the video overlaying Teach Me To Walk In The Light during the broadcast yesterday.

He makes a great loner. Reminds me of myself at Mueller Park Junior High.

LA Ute
03-18-2013, 01:42 PM
Oh, but you're wrong. He says everything so succinctly. He wrote no novels because the short story was long enough to convey everything that needed to be said. He's like a charmingly concise Isaiah.

:blink: Yes, as evidenced by cardiac, a very smart guy, who didn't get the bird parable.

wuapinmon
03-18-2013, 03:21 PM
:blink: Yes, as evidenced by cardiac, a very smart guy, who didn't get the bird parable.

Even the best fall down sometimes.


Es una insípida y notoria verdad que el arte no debe estar al servicio de la política. --Jorge Luis Borges

LA Ute
03-20-2013, 01:36 PM
This is a very well-done video. I showed it to my early morning seminary students last year and they loved it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiiadnMvm20

San Diego Ute Fan
03-20-2013, 08:30 PM
OK, it looks like this thread hasn't exactly caught fire. Yet. Probably because my first post makes it looks like I intended some kind of board testimony meeting. Not so!

Anyway, for now I'll just note that one thing I like about all Christian churches is choirs. I like singing in them and I like listening to them. I'm singing in our stake's choir tonight and tomorrow morning.

Any other choir aficionados out there?

I just found this post, so here's my response: My mom was in the Tabernacle Choir five years before I was born, and left the choir just after I completed my mission. Twenty six years total. My sisters and I went to the Thursday night rehearsals, and Sunday morning broadcasts a lot. We were little Tabernacle rats, running all over the place.

I have climbed to the skylights between the roof and the plaster in the building. I've also climbed all around the organ pipes behind the facade with organist Alexander Schreiner. Good times.

Our family has 6 consecutive generations in the MoTab. It is a part of me. I feel closer to God while listening to the choir than just about any other way. It's always been a big part of my life.

Right now, my sister is a member and I watch for her every Sunday morning during the live broadcast.

LA Ute
03-20-2013, 08:47 PM
I just found this post, so here's my response: My mom was in the Tabernacle Choir five years before I was born, and left the choir just after I completed my mission. Twenty six years total. My sisters and I went to the Thursday night rehearsals, and Sunday morning broadcasts a lot. We were little Tabernacle rats, running all over the place.

I have climbed to the skylights between the roof and the plaster in the building. I've also climbed all around the organ pipes behind the facade with organist Alexander Schreiner. Good times.

Our family has 6 consecutive generations in the MoTab. It is a part of me. I feel closer to God while listening to the choir than just about any other way. It's always been a big part of my life.

Right now, my sister is a member and I watch for her every Sunday morning during the live broadcast.

Cool, SDUF! Thanks for posting.

chrisrenrut
03-27-2013, 08:29 AM
OK, it looks like this thread hasn't exactly caught fire. Yet. Probably because my first post makes it looks like I intended some kind of board testimony meeting. Not so!

Anyway, for now I'll just note that one thing I like about all Christian churches is choirs. I like singing in them and I like listening to them. I'm singing in our stake's choir tonight and tomorrow morning.

Any other choir aficionados out there?

Our choir has been practicing for Easter next week. We are singing Christ the Lord is Risen Today and God So Loved The World. I have tunes stuck in my head this week, and find myself humming them all the time. It's a nice change from the usual fare for our choir, which is primary song arragnements.

I have a pretty good tenor voice, but am not musically trained. I know the basics of reading music, but I can't hear the tenor line when all 4 parts are played on the piano (I can pick out the base line pretty easily). Luckily, we have a member of the MoTab Choir in our ward who is a tenor. He can easily carry the entire tenor section by himself. I try to stand by or in front of him, and it's easy to follow along.

I downloaded a program called MuseScore so I can take the music home, input just the tenor part, and then have the computer play it back for me to help me "memorize" the notes. It's kind of a fun challenge and learning experience, and helps me appreciae the music more.

LA Ute
03-27-2013, 11:33 AM
I need that program! Thanks - I'll hunt it down.

LA Ute
03-29-2013, 09:29 AM
As we go into Easter weekend, this one is appropriate:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXrOG02NMB0

San Diego Ute Fan
03-31-2013, 12:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bAuaSpJ7zGs

LA Ute
03-31-2013, 12:45 PM
Another Easter thought:


The gift of immortality to all is so choice a gift that our rejoicing in these two great and generous gifts should drown out any sorrow, assuage any grief, conquer any mood, dissolve any despair, and tame any tragedy.

Even those who see life as pointless will one day point with adoration to the performance of the Man of Galilee in the crowded moments of time known as Gethsemane and Calvary. Those who now say life is meaningless will yet applaud the atonement, which saved us all from meaninglessness.

Christ’s victory over death routs the rationale that there is a general and irreversible human predicament; there are only personal predicaments, but even from these we can also be rescued by following the pathway of Him who rescued us from general extinction.

A disciple’s “brightness of hope,” therefore, means that at funerals his tears are not because of termination, but because of interruption and separation. Though just as wet, his tears are not of despair, but of appreciation and anticipation. Yes, for disciples, the closing of a grave is but the closing of a door that will later be flung open.

It is the Garden Tomb, not life, that is empty!

--Neal A. Maxwell (http://deseretbook.com/store/product?product_id=100035338)

wuapinmon
03-31-2013, 01:22 PM
Church was good today. My SS lesson was on the Atonement in the Investigators class, and while most of the comments about the afterlife and how being obedient will bless us in this life, some people actually did respond to my prompt of "Aside from the afterlife and our feeling the Spirit, what outwardly-focused reasons might there be for wanting to follow the Savior's exmaple" with notions of sowing peace and love in the world, living a good life for goodness sake, and of not contributing to the suffering of anyone else. When I mentioned that the only time I could remember the Savior ever focusing inwardly were his comments of "let this cup pass" and "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani," the class then understood the point, and we had a lively discussion of living the good life for goodness sake, forgetting about an eternal reward and just serving because we want to be good people (and in doing so, earning an eternal reward). I mentioned 3 Nephi 13:3-4, one of my favorite scriptures, and we spoke about how doing that will lead us not worry about being seen of men, but about working out our salvation while striving to deserve the Grace that awaits us.

I won't say that I felt the Spirit, but I did feel as good at Church as I have in months because we were able to think about the Savior in meaningful ways.

UtahDan
04-01-2013, 07:11 AM
Another Easter thought:



--Neal A. Maxwell (http://deseretbook.com/store/product?product_id=100035338)

I'm starting to think you like NAM.

LA Ute
04-01-2013, 09:53 AM
I'm starting to think you like NAM.

Of course you would pick up on that, despite my long-time subtlety as to my feelings about him.

Dawminator
04-01-2013, 10:50 AM
Elder Maxwell has always been one of my favorites. He passed away while I was on my mission and I still find myself reading his stuff from time to time. His best stuff, IMO, is on patience/enduring well. When he speaks you can distinctly tell that he learned about those subjects from real experience.

Good stuff.

LA Ute
04-01-2013, 02:52 PM
Elder Maxwell has always been one of my favorites. He passed away while I was on my mission and I still find myself reading his stuff from time to time. His best stuff, IMO, is on patience/enduring well. When he speaks you can distinctly tell that he learned about those subjects from real experience.

Good stuff.

His last book was written after he nearly died from leukemia. He knew it would be his last, so he entitled it "One More Strain of Praise (http://www.amazon.com/More-Strain-Praise-Neal-Maxwell/dp/1570086796)," from the hymn "Sing We Now at Parting." :cry: He wrote about all those subjects. From the introduction:


Many have helped me much with my illness. This is especially true of my oncologist, Dr. Clyde Ford, who has walked with me down the path of leukemia, including both his medical and his personal part in providing the blessed "delay en route."

Given all the "IV's" and literally hundreds of necessary injections to maintain and facilitate the "delay," this seems to be my life's pincushion period. Dr. Larry Staker, my primary-care physician, has been attentive and helpful both during and before these last leukemic years. Dr. David Hilleyer did "house calls" when my sinus problems caused concern from time to time. Numerous nurses have helped me greatly, especially Cara Mickelsen, Michelle Tittensor, Heather Swain, Julie McCandless, but also unnamed others.

All these individuals did not merely go through the motions but also went sensitively through the emotions-of mine as well as other patients' illnesses-maximizing what medicine can contribute when combined with kind care.

It is unsurprising that my wife, Colleen, has been the most responsive and helpful. This has included many times when her own supply of energy was low. Yet she was ever anxious not only to care for me but also to please me, and even to surprise me in different and thoughtful ways.

Our children and their spouses (Becky and Mike, Cory and Karen, Nancy and Mark, Jane and Marc) and all the grandchildren have likewise been special. Some may say that such familial love is merely to be expected, and in one sense it is. But when people do their family duties well, the rest of us are obvious beneficiaries. Then, rather than being something one takes for granted, it is something so generously granted in which one rejoices.

Not only have Colleen and the family, including my extended family, been superb, but Susan Jackson has also been a secondary sufferer, while being a primary helper. Furthermore, the regular prayers of so many members and friends in so many places have blessed and nurtured me, and still do, for which I shall be everlastingly grateful.
Finally, if more than in my past writings this spare volume blends the autobiographical and the doctrinal, it is because these two dimensions are actually inseparable, for I am long since rooted in the restored doctrines of the kingdom, however imperfectly I reflect them.

Doctrines believed and practiced do change and improve us, while ensuring our vital access to the Spirit. Both outcomes are crucial. No wonder, therefore, "One More Strain of Praise" especially for Jesus Christ (with chapter titles taken from the same hymn) focuses on certain key doctrines, because these continue to pervade my personal discipleship and help me to press forward in the great distance yet to be covered as to my personal improvement. How could it be otherwise? The scriptures, which we are to "liken unto ourselves," inevitably and blessedly blend the autobiographical with the doctrinal. (See 1 Ne. 19:23.)

I alone am responsible for the contents of this book, which, of course, is not an official Church publication, though I sincerely hope it will be helpful to the readers.

For some reason Elder Maxwell befriended me when I was an undergraduate at the U., and he was a huge influence on me for the rest of his life, even performing my marriage to Mrs. LAU. At a personal level he was even more magnificent than in public. I always left any meeting with him wanting to be more like him.

LA Ute
04-10-2013, 03:33 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-13tk2uPUo0#!

LA Ute
04-14-2013, 08:05 AM
Interesting, if somewhat vanilla, summary of a Bob Millett talk in Newport Beach few days ago.

Millet urges Christians to look for common beliefs (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865578144/Millet-urges-Christians-to-look-for-common-beliefs.html?pg=1)

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 09:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwiYxdgKnkk

Faith in Every Footstep 1. A marvelous work has begun to come forth among all the children of men.

O ye that embark in the service of God, give heart, mind, and strength unto him;

For prophets have spoken and angels have come to lift the world from sin,

That Christ may reign over all the earth and bless his gathered kin.


Chorus



2. Those marvelous Saints who embraced this great work and shared it in lands far and near;

Who gave all their heart, mind, and strength to the Lord with wisdom and vision so clear;

Now stand as examples of virtue and faith, of souls prepared to hear,

Of knowledge sure, born of humble heart, and love that banished fear.


Chorus



3. If we now desire to assist in this work and thrust in our sickle with might;

If we will embark in the service of God and harvest in fields that are white;

Our souls may receive the salvation of God—the fulness of his light,

That we may stand, free of sin and blame, God’s glory in our sight.




Chorus:


With faith in every footstep, we follow Christ, the Lord;

And filled with hope through his pure love, we sing with one accord.



Copyright © 1996 LDS. All rights reserved. This song may be copied for incidental, noncommercial home or church use. This notice must be included on each copy made.

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 02:12 PM
God or Atheism -- Which Is More Rational? (http://www.prageruniversity.com/Religion-Philosophy/God-or-Atheism--Which-Is-More-Rational.html)

Applejack
04-22-2013, 02:21 PM
God or Atheism -- Which Is More Rational? (http://www.prageruniversity.com/Religion-Philosophy/God-or-Atheism--Which-Is-More-Rational.html)



Now who's trolling? His own thread, no less!

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 02:43 PM
Now who's trolling? His own thread, no less!

En garde! How is an interesting little video, in a thread expressly set up for believers, stating well-known apologetic arguments, trolling? You're not suggesting that I am trying to inflame non-believer lurkers, are you? ;)

Applejack
04-22-2013, 03:44 PM
En garde! How is an interesting little video, in a thread expressly set up for believers, stating well-known apologetic arguments, trolling? You're not suggesting that I am trying to inflame non-believer lurkers, are you? ;)

I doubt that your fish (SU) will watch that video. He should, though. It's a good one.

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 03:53 PM
I doubt that your fish (SU) will watch that video. He should, though. It's a good one.

I found it interesting and compelling, but only in the context that belief in God can have a rational foundation. I'm not big on trying to prove religious beliefs.


Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish. (Austin Farrer on C. S. Lewis.)

Applejack
04-22-2013, 04:12 PM
I found it interesting and compelling, but only in the context that belief in God can have a rational foundation. I'm not big on trying to prove religious beliefs.

I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 04:15 PM
I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.

I'm just saying it was an interesting way to say it's not irrational to believe in God. And it isn't. If you disagree with me on this I shall have no choice but to put an ice cube down your neck if you come to the USC game.

woot
04-22-2013, 04:22 PM
I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.

Yeah that video is just a restatement of the same illogical, self-refuting argument that comes up in most any discussion of god (along with some shameless appeal to authority and some elementary misunderstanding of basic terminology).

If everything has a cause, then god needs a cause; sorry. If god doesn't need a cause, then not everything needs a cause. "God" is nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick in this argument.

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 04:55 PM
Nice video, shown in the General Young Women Meeting a couple of weeks ago.

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/general-young-women-meeting/2013/03?lang=eng&vid=2257665547001

Harry Tic
04-22-2013, 06:36 PM
Interesting, if somewhat vanilla, summary of a Bob Millett talk in Newport Beach few days ago.

Millet urges Christians to look for common beliefs (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865578144/Millet-urges-Christians-to-look-for-common-beliefs.html?pg=1)

Thanks for the reminder of why I can't stand Bob Millet. I can't think of anyone who has worked harder to water down Mormon doctrine in an attempt to curry favor with people whose opinions are of little interest anyway.

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the reminder of why I can't stand Bob Millet. I can't think of anyone who has worked harder to water down Mormon doctrine in an attempt to curry favor with people whose opinions are of little interest anyway.

I am not a student of Bob Millet's work so am somewhat neutral about it. What has he done that has bugged you? I ask in peace, because all I know is that he's done a lot of outreach to evangelical Christians, most of whom seem pretty impervious to his good will gestures. (I've had lots of interreligious contact with such folks.)

Harry Tic
04-22-2013, 06:58 PM
I am not a student of Bob Millet's work so am somewhat neutral about it. What has he done that has bugged you? I ask in peace, because all I know is that he's done a lot of outreach to evangelical Christians, most of whom seem pretty impervious to his good will gestures. (I've had lots of interreligious contact with such folks.)

I remember reading his book in "dialogue" with some evangelical scholar a few years back. I kept wanting to throw it across the room. He made some outright absurd statements ("there's no passage in the Bible that I don't personally believe and accept as the word of God") and generally his stance was apologetic, in the bad sense of the term. I understand the attraction of appealing to the Bible to show the reasonableness of Mormon belief. I went through that phase on my mission. But it seems to me his basic impulse is to pander to his crowd by playing up similarities with mainstream conservative Christian thought and downplaying our doctrinal distinctiveness. I would much rather be bold in emphasizing our differences. None of that "all their creeds are an abomination" stuff for Millet.

Then again, I'm not interested in scoring political points for Mormonism and I think there may be some of that in Millet's approach: i.e., "yes, you can vote for Mormon candidates, their positions are just like yours."

LA Ute
04-22-2013, 07:11 PM
I remember reading his book in "dialogue" with some evangelical scholar a few years back. I kept wanting to throw it across the room. He made some outright absurd statements ("there's no passage in the Bible that I don't personally believe and accept as the word of God") and generally his stance was apologetic, in the bad sense of the term. I understand the attraction of appealing to the Bible to show the reasonableness of Mormon belief. I went through that phase on my mission. But it seems to me his basic impulse is to pander to his crowd by playing up similarities with mainstream conservative Christian thought and downplaying our doctrinal distinctiveness. I would much rather be bold in emphasizing our differences. None of that "all their creeds are an abomination" stuff for Millet.

Then again, I'm not interested in scoring political points for Mormonism and I think there may be some of that in Millet's approach: i.e., "yes, you can vote for Mormon candidates, their positions are just like yours."

I like Mormon distinctives. The Articles of Faith are full of them. (I don't consider the location of Kolob to be a good topic for serious discussion about Mormon distinctives, however.)

Applejack
04-22-2013, 09:09 PM
I'm just saying it was an interesting way to say it's not irrational to believe in God. And it isn't. If you disagree with me on this I shall have no choice but to put an ice cube down your neck if you come to the USC game.

I won't muck up your thread anymore (although you started it). I am downgrading my USC likelihood to 50/50 - my wife's cousin is getting married that weekend. I can think of few more obnoxious reasons to miss a great roadie than "cousin's wedding," but such is life.

HuskyFreeNorthwest
04-23-2013, 12:20 AM
I am downgrading my USC likelihood to 50/50 - my wife's cousin is getting married that weekend. I can think of few more obnoxious reasons to miss a great roadie than "cousin's wedding," but such is life.

That sounds like doubt and you need to take that and GTFO of this believer thread.

Applejack
04-23-2013, 07:02 AM
That sounds like doubt and you need to take that and GTFO of this believer thread.

I'm a ProgFan - I can pick and choose the parts I like. Maybe I'll come to Eugene instead.

Harry Tic
04-23-2013, 07:33 AM
I've never read or heard anything written by him. I just dislike him because he's a BYU professor.

There are two strikes against him right there. :D

The other thing I worry about is anyone that always puts "Ph.D" after their name (or, worse, "Ed.D". Run from those like the plague).

LA Ute
04-23-2013, 08:20 AM
There are two strikes against him right there. :D

The other thing I worry about is anyone that always puts "Ph.D" after their name (or, worse, "Ed.D". Run from those like the plague).

"J.D." gets the same reaction from me.

Harry Tic
04-23-2013, 09:15 AM
What about "esquire"?

Or a roman numeral? (RGIII excepted)

LA Ute
04-23-2013, 10:08 AM
What about "esquire"?

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/2800000/Bill-S-Preston-Esq-bill-and-ted-2892235-447-671.jpg

That's generally accepted when addressing a letter to an attorney, or perhaps referring to one in the third person, but no one uses it to describe himself or herself.

LA Ute
04-23-2013, 10:16 AM
I was reminded this morning of this talk by Bruce Hafen back in 1979. I was in law school at the time and it meant a lot to me. Maybe others will like it too.

On Dealing with Uncertainty (http://http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/08/on-dealing-with-uncertainty?lang=eng)

It's my impression that talks like this are rare (about such subjects as amiguity) at BYU these days. It is pretty thoughtful. He begins:


Early in life, most of us think of things in terms of black or white—there is very little gray in either the intellectual or the spiritual dimension of our perspective. Thus, most of the freshmen at places like Brigham Young University and Ricks College have a childlike optimism and loyalty that may make them wonderfully teachable and pleasant. I consider it one of the great blessings of my life to be associated with so many young people at this point in their lives at Ricks. It is typical of these young men and women to trust their teachers, to believe what they read, and to respond with boundless enthusiasm to invitations for Church service.


Where else but in a student ward comprised mostly of freshmen would you find a Church member so thrilled to be called by the bishop as song book coordinator, sacrament (http://lds.org/study/topics/sacrament?lang=eng) bread coordinator, or Relief Society Sunday morning orange juice specialist? As one returned missionary recently told me, one thing he likes best about being in a ward of freshmen and sophomores is that when topics like faith and repentance are raised for discussion, nobody yawns.


As time goes on, however, experiences often accumulate that introduce a new dimension to a student’s perspective. In general, I would characterize this new dimension as a growing awareness that there is a kind of gap between the real and ideal, between what is and what ought to be. To illustrate, I ask you to imagine in your minds two circles, one inside the other. The inner boundary is the real, or what is. The outer boundary is the ideal, or what ought to be. We stand at the inner boundary, reaching out, trying to pull reality closer to the inspired ideals to which we have committed ourselves. When we sense that some things about ourselves or the circumstances we witness are not all we wish they were, we become aware of the distance between these two boundaries. At that point some frustrations can arise. Let me offer some examples....

Bacana Ute
04-23-2013, 10:36 AM
Just ran across this thread, I know I'm a little late but thought I would chime anyway. I certainly don't want to turn this into a soap box for what I believe but I find religion and faith make up who I am to a great extent. For the record I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, like many I don't always agree with what the members of the church do and say(myself included) but I believe the church to be the true church of Jesus Christ. I was enthralled with the picture of the Sombrero Galaxy and the stats of the suns that are in that galaxy. A great struggle for me personally has always been the idea of infinity. As mortal beings we measure everything in the finite realm. Initially explorers set out to map the earth we live on and give everything finite measurements. It seems for the most part that goal has been completed and the same process has been turned to the cosmos. While I don't to be any sort of expert in astrology, it amazes me how scientists of the world continue to learn more and more about the universe and the many galaxies within it. As our knowledge of the surrounding universe expands, it seems to me that the idea of a finite universe is not feasible. The known universe continues to expand and strengthen my belief in God's infinite creations. The idea that God is acutely aware of any one of us, is completely mind boggling to me and my finite mind. I believe that is where faith comes in. Faith allows me to believe in something that I can't understand or measure but I believe to be true. Faith allows me to believe what I can't see or understand.

Jeff Lebowski
04-24-2013, 07:40 AM
I was reminded this morning of this talk by Bruce Hafen back in 1979. I was in law school at the time and it meant a lot to me. Maybe others will like it too.

On Dealing with Uncertainty (http://http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/08/on-dealing-with-uncertainty?lang=eng)

It's my impression that talks like this are rare (about such subjects as amiguity) at BYU these days. It is pretty thoughtful. He begins:

lol.

Look at LAU mocking the Lord's University in the Official Believer Thread. What a hypocrite.

LA Ute
04-24-2013, 07:48 AM
lol.

Look at LAU mocking the Lord's University in the Official Believer Thread. What a hypocrite.

I forgot how sensitive you are about such things. :p It's still a good talk. If you read it maybe you'll find some help with reconciling your ideal (LAU loving everything about BYU) with reality (LAU doesn't love everything about BYU). Engineers in particular struggle with ambiguity. I'm telling you, JL, Hafen's talk can help you.

Jeff Lebowski
04-24-2013, 07:57 AM
Hafen used to give great talks, but he seems unhinged lately. Sad to watch.

LA Ute
04-24-2013, 07:58 AM
Hafen used to give great talks, but he seems unhinged lately. Sad to watch.

Too much time at BYU does that to people.

Jeff Lebowski
04-24-2013, 07:59 AM
Too much time at BYU does that to people.

No, he jumped the tracks after he left!

LA Ute
04-24-2013, 08:07 AM
No, he jumped the tracks after he left!

He also got his law degree at he U. So the seeds were planted early. I'm surprised you didn't mention this.

San Diego Ute Fan
04-24-2013, 09:37 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwiYxdgKnkk

LA, what choir is this?

LA Ute
04-24-2013, 02:47 PM
LA, what choir is this?

I wish I knew!

LA Ute
04-30-2013, 10:45 PM
This is a fine essay by Terryl Givens: Letter to a Doubter (http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/letter-to-a-doubter/)

An excerpt from his concluding section:


I know I am grateful for a propensity to doubt because it gives me the capacity to freely believe. I hope you can find your way to feel the same. The call to faith is a summons to engage the heart, to attune it to resonate in sympathy with principles and values and ideals that we devoutly hope are true and which we have reasonable but not certain grounds for believing to be true. There must be grounds for doubt as well as belief in order to render the choice more truly a choice, and therefore more deliberate and laden with more personal vulnerability and investment. An overwhelming preponderance of evidence on either side would make our choice as meaningless as would a loaded gun pointed at our heads. The option to believe must appear on one’s personal horizon like the fruit of paradise, perched precariously between sets of demands held in dynamic tension. Fortunately, in this world, one is always provided with sufficient materials out of which to fashion a life of credible conviction [Page 145]or dismissive denial. We are acted upon, in other words, by appeals to our personal values, our yearnings, our fears, our appetites, and our egos. What we choose to embrace, to be responsive to, is the purest reflection of who we are and what we love. That is why faith, the choice to believe, is, in the final analysis, an action that is positively laden with moral significance.

The call to faith, in this light, is not some test of a coy god waiting to see if we “get it right.” It is the only summons, issued under the only conditions which can allow us to reveal fully who we are, what we most love, and what we most devoutly desire. Without constraint, without any form of mental compulsion, the act of belief becomes the freest possible projection of what resides in our hearts. Like the poet’s image of a church bell that reveals its latent music only when struck, or a dragonfly that flames forth its beauty only in flight, so does the content of a human heart lie buried until action calls it forth. The greatest act of self-revelation occurs when we choose what we will believe, in that space of freedom that exists between knowing that a thing is and knowing that a thing is not.

UtahDan
05-01-2013, 03:57 AM
This is a fine essay by Terryl Givens: Letter to a Doubter (http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/letter-to-a-doubter/)

An excerpt from his concluding section:

Interestingly, many people see their status as a non-believer as ennobling and reflective if their bravery, honesty, etc. I'm not sure whether both sides are right to some degree or if this is just the human tendency to flatter ourselves or both.

LA Ute
05-01-2013, 09:19 AM
Interestingly, many people see their status as a non-believer as ennobling and reflective if their bravery, honesty, etc. I'm not sure whether both sides are right to some degree or if this is just the human tendency to flatter ourselves or both.

It is indeed interesting. I think how you see it depends on where you stand. Funny how that works out in life. ;) For example, Elder Holland said in the April GC:


When problems come and questions arise, do not start your quest for faith by saying how much you do not have, leading as it were with your “unbelief.” That is like trying to stuff a turkey through the beak! Let me be clear on this point: I am not asking you to pretend to faith you do not have. I am asking you to be true to the faith you do have. Sometimes we act as if an honest declaration of doubt is a higher manifestation of moral courage than is an honest declaration of faith. It is not! So let us all remember the clear message of this scriptural account: Be as candid about your questions as you need to be; life is full of them on one subject or another. But if you and your family want to be healed, don’t let those questions stand in the way of faith working its miracle.

Depending on the circumstances, both you and he can be right.

FMCoug
05-01-2013, 09:50 AM
I googled it, and the first link to it was from BYU online, so I posted the second link instead.

You have a problem man.

LA Ute
05-01-2013, 09:52 AM
You have a problem man.

Cut the man some slack. I think he dislikes Café Rio.

Diehard Ute
05-01-2013, 09:55 AM
Cut the man some slack. I think he dislikes Café Rio.

Which speaks to high character and taste

LA Ute
05-01-2013, 10:02 AM
Which speaks to high character and taste

Yes. it would make him a kindred spirit with FM. A guy has to be good to his kindred spirits.

FMCoug
05-01-2013, 10:14 AM
It's a good story, though. Did you read it?

What can I say? I like having a rival. I get all my hate out of the way on something trivial, and I have none left for the things that actually matter.

That makes you a bigot. I prefer to hate everything and everyone equally.

Diehard Ute
05-01-2013, 10:18 AM
That makes you a bigot. I prefer to hate everything and everyone equally.

Hating people in general just saves time

Applejack
05-01-2013, 12:42 PM
I finally made it through his letter. I have a hard time reading him for some reason. I like his ideas fine, but his style seems a little ... I don't know the word. It's like when you read the Joseph Smith history, which is beautifully written, and then you hit the part at the end written by Oliver Cowdery, which is a bit over the top.

Verbose? I agree.

Solon
05-01-2013, 02:26 PM
I finally made it through his letter. I have a hard time reading him for some reason. I like his ideas fine, but his style seems a little ... I don't know the word. It's like when you read the Joseph Smith history, which is beautifully written, and then you hit the part at the end written by Oliver Cowdery, which is a bit over the top.

Givens is not always my cup of tea, but I think he's a super-smart guy and that this letter is well intentioned.

I also think that contemporary issues pose a greater threat to the faith of LDS membership than murky or unsavory history.

(I would categorize the ongoing debate about how to broach these difficult topics in LDS history, institutional openness, and apologia into the "contemporary issues" category.)

LA Ute
05-01-2013, 02:51 PM
Givens is not always my cup of tea, but I think he's a super-smart guy and that this letter is well intentioned.

I also think that contemporary issues pose a greater threat to the faith of LDS membership than murky or unsavory history.

(I would categorize the ongoing debate about how to broach these difficult topics in LDS history, institutional openness, and apologia into the "contemporary issues" category.)

Maybe it's just me but I see the Holland talk (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/04/lord-i-believe?lang=eng), this Givens piece (and other such writings and speeches that I am forgetting) as evidence that the church's faithful intelligentsia are trying to respond to the difficult topics being so widely discussed these days. Givens is great, my only reservation being that his writing seems to emote just a bit too much.


How great are the Joseph Smith quotes that he uses? I have long thought that the problem with documentaries/histories about Joseph Smith is that it takes so long to explain who he was and what he did that there is never any room for what he taught. And not what he taught about controversial subjects - what he taught about charity, service, etc. His quotes on those topics are beautiful.

I agree, and I don't think I had ever seen most of them before. I am clueless as to why those are not more widely known.

Applejack
05-01-2013, 05:54 PM
Givens is not always my cup of tea, but I think he's a super-smart guy and that this letter is well intentioned.

I also think that contemporary issues pose a greater threat to the faith of LDS membership than murky or unsavory history.

(I would categorize the ongoing debate about how to broach these difficult topics in LDS history, institutional openness, and apologia into the "contemporary issues" category.)

I'm confused by what you mean by "contemporary issues." Are you saying that the debate about whether to embrace/ignore historical warts is more of a threat to faith than the warts themselves?

Solon
05-02-2013, 10:18 AM
I'm confused by what you mean by "contemporary issues." Are you saying that the debate about whether to embrace/ignore historical warts is more of a threat to faith than the warts themselves?

Exactly.
In my opinion (and my experience), believing LDS have an easier time coming to grips with Joseph Smith's polygamy, or Book of Mormon historicity, or the sketchy timeline of the Melchizedek priesthood restoration more easily than with the way a lesson manual might whitewash or omit or selectively interpret these issues.

Every religion has a messed up past. It's the present that matters more to people (IMO).

Rocker Ute
05-02-2013, 11:07 AM
Exactly.
In my opinion (and my experience), believing LDS have an easier time coming to grips with Joseph Smith's polygamy, or Book of Mormon historicity, or the sketchy timeline of the Melchizedek priesthood restoration more easily than with the way a lesson manual might whitewash or omit or selectively interpret these issues.

Every religion has a messed up past. It's the present that matters more to people (IMO).

It has been my observation that for many converts the 'one true church' aspect is less important that what is happening in the now, and what they believe the church to currently be and how it is going to fulfill their spiritual needs. Coming to terms with that decision, that whole aspect becomes more important as validation of their choices. Members wanting to reinforce that feel it necessary to ignore the human elements of its leaders, all the way down to a local level.

Conversely, when we discover the human elements that are off-putting we then seek validation for why we don't like a person. I'm guilty of this very thing. A couple of weeks ago I had an employee I was very close to who told me he is moving on to another job in a less than ideal manner. When before I might have let pass some of his professional shortcomings, now those are what I seem to focus on when I'm trying to rationalize him going way.

Same thing with church leaders past and present. We'll dismiss or focus on their shortcomings dependent on our position relative to them.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 11:41 AM
It has been my observation that for many converts the 'one true church' aspect is less important that what is happening in the now, and what they believe the church to currently be and how it is going to fulfill their spiritual needs. Coming to terms with that decision, that whole aspect becomes more important as validation of their choices. Members wanting to reinforce that feel it necessary to ignore the human elements of its leaders, all the way down to a local level.

Conversely, when we discover the human elements that are off-putting we then seek validation for why we don't like a person. I'm guilty of this very thing. A couple of weeks ago I had an employee I was very close to who told me he is moving on to another job in a less than ideal manner. When before I might have let pass some of his professional shortcomings, now those are what I seem to focus on when I'm trying to rationalize him going way.

Same thing with church leaders past and present. We'll dismiss or focus on their shortcomings dependent on our position relative to them.

This is so true. For example, your status as a Ute fan makes me blind to (or at least very forgiving of) your shortcomings. In fact, that's the main reason I can stand associating with most of the nincompoops on this board.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 11:48 AM
This is so true. For example, your status as a Ute fan makes me blind to (or at least very forgiving of) your shortcomings. In fact, that's the main reason I can stand associating with most of the nincompoops on this board.

I think that's something that's somewhat unique to the LDS church. It's more like a private club in that aspect, a unique built in networking system.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 11:52 AM
I think that's something that's somewhat unique to the LDS church. It's more like a private club in that aspect, a unique built in networking system.

I was talking about Ute fanhood covering a multitude of sins. (I was kidding, too.) As for the LDS network I always say that for most people there are six degrees of separation. Mormons have only two.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 11:54 AM
I was talking about Ute fanhood covering a multitude of sins. (I was kidding, too.) As for the LDS network I always say that for most people there are six degrees of separation. Mormons have only two.

I know (both on the Ute and kidding points), but it brought the LDS point to mind. I think that's why everyone starts a conversation with "what ward are you in?" ;)

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 12:06 PM
I know (both on the Ute and kidding points), but it brought the LDS point to mind. I think that's why everyone starts a conversation with "what ward are you in?" ;)

When people from Salt Lake learn that I am also from SLC, they always ask where I went to high school.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 12:08 PM
When people from Salt Lake learn that I am also from SLC, they always ask where I went to high school.

That's usually the second question I get...although the people in handcuffs don't get a real answer haha

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 12:13 PM
Where did you go to high school?

518

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 12:16 PM
That explains a lot LA

(My Dad went there too....)

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 12:30 PM
That explains a lot LA

(My Dad went there too....)

I played football with your uncle there.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 12:31 PM
I played football with your uncle there.

Ok. Couple years ahead of my dad then.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 12:44 PM
518

It warms my heart to see the red bleeding through in the background.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 12:51 PM
It warms my heart to see the red bleeding through in the background.

In my day any vandalism by the hooligans from the secondary education entity located in northeastern Salt Lake was always covered up within an hour or two.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 01:03 PM
Where did you go to high school?

519

Solon
05-02-2013, 01:57 PM
518

As a graduate student at the U, I taught at that high school as a long-term sub for most of a semester just after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 01:58 PM
In my day any vandalism by the hooligans from the secondary education entity located in northeastern Salt Lake was always covered up within an hour or two.

In your day I'm sure there wasn't much vandalism, as the superior education entity located in northeastern SLC was busy winning state titles.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 02:13 PM
519

We had a song we used to sing about your school. It was about where we thought you all should go as your eternal reward.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 02:30 PM
In your day I'm sure there wasn't much vandalism, as the superior education entity located in northeastern SLC was busy winning state titles.

Oh, I figured you were going to say that it was because spray paint had yet to be invented

concerned
05-02-2013, 02:36 PM
It warms my heart to see the red bleeding through in the background.

When I went to Highland, I hated East. Now my kids go to East and I hate Highland. Kicked their butts in lacrosse Saturday.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 02:44 PM
We had a song we used to sing about your school. It was about where we thought you all should go as your eternal reward.

Yeah, well my Vranes beat your Judkins!

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 02:51 PM
Yeah, well my Vranes beat your Judkins!

They weren't even in school at the same time. Typical Eagles exaggeration! Juddy graduated one year after me. We called him "spider."

By the way, we beat you in football two out of my three years.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 02:54 PM
They weren't even in school at the same time. Typical Eagles exaggeration! Juddy graduated one year after me. We called him "spider."

By the way, we beat you in football two out of my three years.

Now I'm beginning to doubt myself. Maybe they did overlap a little bit in high school. Age is playing tricks on me. I can't help it.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 03:05 PM
Oh, I figured you were going to say that it was because spray paint had yet to be invented

My Dad tells a story of when he was in high school at East, garage door openers were just becoming popular, and all of the newer Highland High homes on the hill had garage door openers. However, there were apparently not a lot of frequencies in use, so my Dad and his friends gathered up a bunch of garage door openers and went around the neighborhoods pushing them all, opening random garages. If no one closed it or came out to investigate after several minutes, they would assume no one was around and they were in the clear. They would then scope out the garages for red and white paint, which they helped themselves to in order to paint over the "H."

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:09 PM
When people from Salt Lake learn that I am also from SLC, they always ask where I went to high school.

I can say based on 20+ years experience, it is absolutely true that "in every city in the country, they ask you where you went to college. In Salt Lake, they ask you where you went to high school."

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:10 PM
They weren't even in school at the same time. Typical Eagles exaggeration! Juddy graduated one year after me. We called him "spider."

By the way, we beat you in football two out of my three years.

Fair enough, Lowell. The year I graduated we took state in football and hoops.

Not to go all Uncle Rico on you or anything, but don't look up the number of state football championships at Skyline vs Highland. It'll ruin your afternoon.

On the other hand, John Bytheway was a Rams grad. So at least you have that.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:12 PM
My Dad tells a story of when he was in high school at East, garage door openers were just becoming popular, and all of the newer Highland High homes on the hill had garage door openers. However, there were apparently not a lot of frequencies in use, so my Dad and his friends gathered up a bunch of garage door openers and went around the neighborhoods pushing them all, opening random garages. If no one closed it or came out to investigate after several minutes, they would assume no one was around and they were in the clear. They would then scope out the garages for red and white paint, which they helped themselves to in order to paint over the "H."

What is the statute of limitations on that sort of activity, counselor?

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:12 PM
My Dad tells a story of when he was in high school at East, garage door openers were just becoming popular, and all of the newer Highland High homes on the hill had garage door openers. However, there were apparently not a lot of frequencies in use, so my Dad and his friends gathered up a bunch of garage door openers and went around the neighborhoods pushing them all, opening random garages. If no one closed it or came out to investigate after several minutes, they would assume no one was around and they were in the clear. They would then scope out the garages for red and white paint, which they helped themselves to in order to paint over the "H."

My son spends Saturday nights running in a large pack of teenage boys all through the neighborhoods and Bonneville golf course, and I don't think it has changed much.

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:14 PM
Fair enough, Lowell. The year I graduated we took state in football and hoops.

Not to go all Uncle Rico on you or anything, but don't look up the number of state football championships at Skyline vs Highland. It'll ruin your afternoon.

On the other hand, John Bytheway was a Rams grad. So at least you have that.

That kind of smack is on a par with BYU 84 national championship smack. Skyline now has 400 kids in its senior class (not 1000) and it cant recruit football players any more, and you are down with the rest of us.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 03:15 PM
My son spends Saturday nights running in a large pack of teenage boys all through the neighborhoods and Bonneville golf course, and I don't think it has changed much.

Sounds like that's exactly how it was 43-44 years ago when it was my Dad, and I know that's how it was 18-19 years ago when it was me.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:17 PM
That kind of smack is on a par with BYU 84 national championship smack. Skyline now has 400 kids in its senior class (not 1000) and it cant recruit football players any more, and you are down with the rest of us.

This is kind of fun. Is there anyone on here that will admit having attended Olympus? (Drops mike and walks away)

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:20 PM
That kind of smack is on a par with BYU 84 national championship smack. Skyline now has 400 kids in its senior class (not 1000) and it cant recruit football players any more, and you are down with the rest of us.

The year I graduated ('76) we had +/- 1100 kids in the senior class. There was no need to recruit outside the boundaries. Man, it was huge.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 03:22 PM
I can say based on 20+ years experience, it is absolutely true that "in every city in the country, they ask you where you went to college. In Salt Lake, they ask you where you went to high school."

I know where you went to high school.

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:24 PM
The year I graduated ('76) we had +/- 1100 kids in the senior class. There was no need to recruit outside the boundaries. Man, it was huge.

its funny how the large high schools have just continued to move South. First Highland, then Skyline, then Brighton, now Alta, and especially now Lone Peak.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 03:24 PM
My son spends Saturday nights running in a large pack of teenage boys all through the neighborhoods and Bonneville golf course, and I don't think it has changed much.

You may as well just give me your phone number now, it'll save dispatch the time finding it ;)

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:25 PM
I know where you went to high school.


Hey, I admitted it (see above).

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 03:25 PM
The year I graduated ('76) we had +/- 1100 kids in the senior class. There was no need to recruit outside the boundaries. Man, it was huge.

We disliked Skyline intensely because you had the unfair advantage we used to have, and we wanted it back!

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:26 PM
You may as well just give me your phone number now, it'll save dispatch the time finding it ;)

My guess is you already have talked to my son, but you were nice to him.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 03:27 PM
This is kind of fun. Is there anyone on here that will admit having attended Olympus? (Drops mike and walks away)

So if that's how you feel, how do you feel about the rumor about closing Skyline and sending everyone to Olympus?

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 03:28 PM
My guess is you already have talked to my son, but you were nice to him.

Maybe, my area is actually south of 1700 so that's where I spend most of my time.

We're having some issues with the Highland crowd, but it's usually around the school.

Kids from Highland really like to egg things.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:31 PM
So if that's how you feel, how do you feel about the rumor about closing Skyline and sending everyone to Olympus?

That would be a sad day for me. BTW, how did all of this wind up in the believer thread?

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:34 PM
Maybe, my area is actually south of 1700 so that's where I spend most of my time.

We're having some issues with the Highland crowd, but it's usually around the school.

Kids from Highland really like to egg things.

I haven't heard about eggs. Snowballs and TP, yes.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 03:35 PM
I haven't heard about eggs. Snowballs and TP, yes.

The eggs have slowed since one ended in arrests.

concerned
05-02-2013, 03:37 PM
The eggs have slowed since one ended in arrests.

I am pretty sure none of the East kids has ever been arrested or done anything to warrant it. They have been giveing warnings, and told to knock it off, which I think they have done.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 03:39 PM
I am pretty sure none of the East kids has ever been arrested or done anything to warrant it. They have been giveing warnings, and told to knock it off, which I think they have done.

Yeah. This one ended up going beyond eggs unfortunately.

Eggs were a Highland thing, East tends to like to take over the parking lot of the Red Robin and harass people. They usually leave when we show up.

Most the kids we deal with are decent, just not always using common sense.

GUBA
05-02-2013, 03:41 PM
Maybe, my area is actually south of 1700 so that's where I spend most of my time.

We're having some issues with the Highland crowd, but it's usually around the school.

Kids from Highland really like to egg things.

I will have to ask my son about this. He is supposed to go straight home after school and as far as I know he does. May have to check to make sure he is.

Diehard Ute
05-02-2013, 03:41 PM
I will have to ask my son about this. He is supposed to go straight home after school and as far as I know he does. May have to check to make sure he is.

I work at night, so this is after 10pm

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 03:48 PM
BTW, how did all of this wind up in the believer thread?

It may have been my fault.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 03:50 PM
It may have been my fault.

Perhaps a new thread is in order, "The Uncle Rico Thread"?

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 03:50 PM
It's fast and testimony meeting this Sunday and I am conducting. Looking forward to it.

Scratch
05-02-2013, 03:53 PM
Maybe, my area is actually south of 1700 so that's where I spend most of my time.

We're having some issues with the Highland crowd, but it's usually around the school.

Kids from Highland really like to egg things.

We East kids engaged in the occasional eggings back in the day. Our preferred method of delivery was to toss a spool of string over a tree branch and then hang the egg so it would hit the car's windshield. The advantages were that we knew it would only get windshield, which are easier to clean and less likely to damage than paint, plus we could sit in a car a block or so away and watch cars stop and run around looking for who threw the eggs.

We were snowballing once from off the roof of the white church right next to Clayton Jr. High, and we thought we were safe up there, but one guy and his friends in a white van stopped and tracked us down. He gave us the option of going with him in his van or calling the cops, so being brilliant kids wanting to avoid cops we got in his van. He drove us to his studio apartment by the U, made us write our names down (all fake, of course) and screamed at us for about 20 minutes while he drank a beer before we just took off. Smart move on our part.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 03:59 PM
We were snowballing once from off the roof of the white church right next to Clayton Jr. High, and we thought we were safe up there....

That would be the Hillside Stake center, where I went to church my entire life before leaving home. Early Morning Seminary was there too. Good times.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 04:05 PM
We East kids engaged in the occasional eggings back in the day. Our preferred method of delivery was to toss a spool of string over a tree branch and then hang the egg so it would hit the car's windshield. The advantages were that we knew it would only get windshield, which are easier to clean and less likely to damage than paint, plus we could sit in a car a block or so away and watch cars stop and run around looking for who threw the eggs.

We were snowballing once from off the roof of the white church right next to Clayton Jr. High, and we thought we were safe up there, but one guy and his friends in a white van stopped and tracked us down. He gave us the option of going with him in his van or calling the cops, so being brilliant kids wanting to avoid cops we got in his van. He drove us to his studio apartment by the U, made us write our names down (all fake, of course) and screamed at us for about 20 minutes while he drank a beer before we just took off. Smart move on our part.

I thought "hanging an egg" was specific to Skyline. We used to do that on my street (Old Millcreek Road, that diagonally connects Wasatch Blvd to 3800 South at the 4 way stop). We were never caught. Not even once.

Two Utes
05-02-2013, 04:23 PM
The eggs have slowed since one ended in arrests.

My daughter's car (my car) has been egged three times in the last year. We've been toilet papered twice. The house across the street has probably been toilet papered 10 times in the last 6 or 7 years (they have two very pretty girls). Last Friday night, someone threw a damn water balloon at my window while I was having a party. I took it upon my self to let all the kids on my street know the next day that they are clearly not afraid enough of me and to spread the word that the wrath of two utes is about to come down hard on those I catch.

LA Ute
05-02-2013, 04:25 PM
I thought "hanging an egg" was specific to Skyline. We used to do that on my street (Old Millcreek Road, that diagonally connects Wasatch Blvd to 3800 South at the 4 way stop). We were never caught. Not even once.

Hey, this is the believer thread, not a place to brag about past transgressions.

Two Utes
05-02-2013, 04:25 PM
My daughter's car (my car) has been egged three times in the last year. We've been toilet papered twice. The house across the street has probably been toilet papered 10 times in the last 6 or 7 years (they have two very pretty girls). Last Friday night, someone threw a damn water balloon at my window while I was having a party. I took it upon my self to let all the kids on my street know the next day that they are clearly not afraid enough of me and to spread the word that the wrath of two utes is about to come down hard on those I catch.

Sugar House, by the way.

concerned
05-02-2013, 04:28 PM
Sugar House, by the way.

You mean Country Club. You are not in Sugar House. But those Highland boys can be animals. At least when I was young.

Two Utes
05-02-2013, 04:32 PM
You mean Country Club. You are not in Sugar House. But those Highland boys can be animals. At least when I was young.
Country Club presumes I live on a golf course. I don't.

concerned
05-02-2013, 04:34 PM
Country Club presumes I live on a golf course. I don't.

you are infinitely closer to the golf course than to sugar house.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-02-2013, 04:37 PM
Hey, this is the believer thread, not a place to brag about past transgressions.

Sometime I'll have to describe the afternoon that four scouts (I may or may not have been one of them) dumped an ENTIRE gallon of Coleman fuel into a latrine at Camp Steiner, then threw matches between the wall and roof.

Two Utes
05-02-2013, 04:38 PM
And there is a simple explanation for the high school thing. If you ask someone where they went to high school you will inevitably know someone who went to high school with them. You will know where they grew up and you will automatically know a shit load of information about them (that's Utah folks).

It's that two degrees to Kevin Bacon thing that LA Ute was referring to the other day.

Rocker Ute
05-02-2013, 10:00 PM
...so being brilliant kids wanting to avoid cops we got in his van...

Kidnapping is usually a fitting punishment for snowballing a car. I'm both horrified and laughing at the notion in teenagers heads that ending up dead in the back of some random guy's van is better than calling your parents from the police station... Why? Because I'm pretty sure I would have gone with that logic at the time too.

LA Ute
05-03-2013, 07:32 AM
This is a cool story on so many levels.

From 'Book of Mormon' musical to Mormon convert (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579364/From-Book-of-Mormon-musical-to-Mormon-convert.html?s_cid=Email-4)

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865579364/From-Book-of-Mormon-musical-to-Mormon-convert.html?s_cid=Email-4

It brings to mind this OT scripture, which we studied in Seminary last year:

"Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks." --Jeremiah 16:16.

Rocker Ute
05-03-2013, 08:03 AM
I had my recurring dream last night that I'm curious if others of you who have served LDS missions have had. Basically it is right now and I get a call from my mission president who says they need me to come back out, to which I agree to do. Next thing I know, I'm out there matched up with some 19yo kid and I'm thinking, "I should be home with my family, how are they going to survive?" I usually wake up to a ton of relief, and admiration for the old days where guys did just that.

Anybody else have recurring dreams/nightmares like that?

chrisrenrut
05-03-2013, 08:12 AM
I had my recurring dream last night that I'm curious if others of you who have served LDS missions have had. Basically it is right now and I get a call from my mission president who says they need me to come back out, to which I agree to do. Next thing I know, I'm out there matched up with some 19yo kid and I'm thinking, "I should be home with my family, how are they going to survive?" I usually wake up to a ton of relief, and admiration for the old days where guys did just that.

Anybody else have recurring dreams/nightmares like that?

I have that same dream every year or so. I think it's God's way of telling me to stop complaining about teaching primary or home teaching.

Two Utes
05-03-2013, 08:31 AM
I have that same dream every year or so. I think it's God's way of telling me to stop complaining about teaching primary or home teaching.

For at least ten years after my mission I had dreams about being back out on my mission and wondering "how the hell did I get back out here?" Then I wake up in a cold sweat realizing it was just a dream. Trauma?

Jeff Lebowski
05-03-2013, 08:43 AM
This is a cool story on so many levels.

From 'Book of Mormon' musical to Mormon convert (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579364/From-Book-of-Mormon-musical-to-Mormon-convert.html?s_cid=Email-4)

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865579364/From-Book-of-Mormon-musical-to-Mormon-convert.html?s_cid=Email-4

It brings to mind this OT scripture, which we studied in Seminary last year:

"Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks." --Jeremiah 16:16.

Awesome.

LA Ute
05-10-2013, 04:06 PM
Thought for the weekend:

"One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

-- C.S. Lewis

jrj84105
05-10-2013, 07:31 PM
Thought for the weekend:

"One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

-- C.S. Lewis
That quote is flat retarded. Christianity is currently hugely influential in the world when its veracity is unknown. A large proportion of the population operates with near certainty that Christianity is true, and yet one would never guess from their behavior. Similarly, a large proportion of the population operates with near certainty that Christianity is false, yet even they are strongly influenced by the narratives, archetypes, and moral codes presented in the bible. The religious traditions of Greece and Rome still influence our lives and thinking today. Finally, regardless of any amount of evidence as to the veracity of Christianity, people will still not change their prior conviction. For instance, certain aspects of historical Christianity such ad the creation myth are clearly not true, yet people still adhere to the belief and the belief continues to have influence over Christians and non-Christians alike. To say that powerful ideas lose their power simply because they're false is plain wrong.

Solon
05-11-2013, 08:08 AM
That quote is flat retarded. Christianity is currently hugely influential in the world when its veracity is unknown. A large proportion of the population operates with near certainty that Christianity is true, and yet one would never guess from their behavior. Similarly, a large proportion of the population operates with near certainty that Christianity is false, yet even they are strongly influenced by the narratives, archetypes, and moral codes presented in the bible. The religious traditions of Greece and Rome still influence our lives and thinking today. Finally, regardless of any amount of evidence as to the veracity of Christianity, people will still not change their prior conviction. For instance, certain aspects of historical Christianity such ad the creation myth are clearly not true, yet people still adhere to the belief and the belief continues to have influence over Christians and non-Christians alike. To say that powerful ideas lose their power simply because they're false is plain wrong.

Obviously, Christianity is important historically. I'm guessing that Mr. Lewis means "important" in the sense of human salvation or connection with the divine.

The truth or falsity of Christianity's statement (I like that phrase, btw) is a cosmic question, not an issue of assessing Christianity's influence on the world.

-at least, that's how I read it. I don't find it a particularly profound point since you could say the same thing about any religion (in this sense that I'm reading it).

LA Ute
05-11-2013, 09:30 AM
Obviously, Christianity is important historically. I'm guessing that Mr. Lewis means "important" in the sense of human salvation or connection with the divine.

The truth or falsity of Christianity's statement (I like that phrase, btw) is a cosmic question, not an issue of assessing Christianity's influence on the world.

-at least, that's how I read it. I don't find it a particularly profound point since you could say the same thing about any religion (in this sense that I'm reading it).

I think you have Lewis's intent right. He's saying that in one way, Christianity's (and Christ's) claim is binary: Either Jesus was all he said he was, or he is not. If he saved mankind and is the Way, the Truth and the Life, then he is everything to us. If he did not and is not, then he's a very important important figure historically but a fraud. I guess you could say the same about Mormonism and Joseph Smith, but only because of the connection to Christianity and the claim of being restored Christanity.

You're right that the same could be said about other faiths, to the extent they claim exclusivity. Islam, for example. Not Judaism, as I understand it.

Diehard Ute
05-11-2013, 02:27 PM
You're right that the same could be said about other faiths, to the extent they claim exclusivity. Islam, for example. Not Judaism, as I understand it.

Exclusivity of what?

LA Ute
05-11-2013, 02:31 PM
Exclusivity of what?

That was shorthand for the "one true church," or the one way to worship/please/return to the only true God.

Ma'ake
05-11-2013, 07:47 PM
Here's a thought for Mormons, or Christians or Muslims: What if the "truth" of your religion is not factually correct? For LDS, for example, what if Joseph Smith (more or less) fabricated the Book of Abraham? (Given what we know about Egyptian today this is not an outrageous hypothetical) Does that mean every other aspect of the religion is purely a façade, a fraud, worthless?

The same question could be asked of Christianity, and Islam. If Jesus really was just a man, and he's not coming back, does that mean all of his teachings are worthless?

What is our view today of the believers of Thor (since a lot of our ancestors certainly were in this school of thought)? All of their beliefs were basically just a futile attempt to make sense of this life?

I suppose there is the scenario where Joseph Smith was a fraud, but Jesus is truly the Son of God, at which point you could make the case that Joseph Smith and the adherents of the LDS faith helped a lot of people come closer to Jesus, so it’s not as though the entire exercise is without merit.

jrj84105
05-12-2013, 06:55 AM
"One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

You could say the exact thing about any mythology created for the express purpose of being infinitely important. If Unicornizm (the belief that unicorns will once again roam the earth farting eternal happiness) were true, it would be infinitely important. If I believed my toaster could transport me instantaneously anywhere through space and time, it would be of infinite importance if true. If Pauly Shore had the ability to raise the dead, it would be of infinite importance. It's a nonsensical quote where the key word Christianity could be replaced mad libs style for the same effect.

it is infuriating because it poses the single stupidest reason for being religious in that it is a good risk/reward ratio neglecting the cumative potential lost by millions of people over centuries pursuing a false reason for existing. It is the equivalent of playing spiritual lottery except with worse odds.

Solon
05-12-2013, 11:46 AM
Here's a thought for Mormons, or Christians or Muslims: What if the "truth" of your religion is not factually correct? For LDS, for example, what if Joseph Smith (more or less) fabricated the Book of Abraham? (Given what we know about Egyptian today this is not an outrageous hypothetical) Does that mean every other aspect of the religion is purely a façade, a fraud, worthless?

The same question could be asked of Christianity, and Islam. If Jesus really was just a man, and he's not coming back, does that mean all of his teachings are worthless?

What is our view today of the believers of Thor (since a lot of our ancestors certainly were in this school of thought)? All of their beliefs were basically just a futile attempt to make sense of this life?

I suppose there is the scenario where Joseph Smith was a fraud, but Jesus is truly the Son of God, at which point you could make the case that Joseph Smith and the adherents of the LDS faith helped a lot of people come closer to Jesus, so it’s not as though the entire exercise is without merit.

For the past 3 years, I've done a guest-lecture in an ancient history class on ancient Roman & Greek religion. In those cultures, there were the established civic cults where everyone would go to the ritual and then the barbecue (comparable to a 4th of July celebration in the US, I suggest), but there was also the personal religion, the one-on-one deals, the ex-voto offerings and side-bets with God. These almost always operated on a quid pro quo basis: if God/deity does X, then the suppliant will do Y. If X doesn't happen, then the two parties go their separate ways and a polytheistic worshiper will try another deity.

This the model for Hannah asking for a child and promising it to God (1 Samuel 1.11), or any number of examples from ancient Greece & Rome. The students in these classes are always understandably dismissive of ancient religious belief, but they grow quiet when I remind them that, if the prayers and requests didn't work, there wouldn't be statues, dedications, and inscriptions telling us that the people believed that they did. The sheer number of ex-voto offerings suggests that these people believed that their prayers had been answered. Curse-tablets asking for horrible and violent actions have been uncovered spanning about a thousand years and huge geography. Ancient religion was inherently practical - if one god didn't fulfill your needs, you went and found another god. (note the 1st commandment to the Hebrews suggests that there are lots of options out there, but that they should have no other God before Jehovah; this is different from declaring that only one God exists). So, if these things didn't work in some way, why did people keep doing them for hundreds and hundreds of years? There was no belief (like today's) of "pay your tithing and then God will bless you temporally." It was "If God blesses me temporally, I'll pay some tithing."

The pragmatic nature of these transactions means that the dedicators considered their prayers and requests to have been fulfilled. Who am I to discredit their loyalty and integrity in fulfilling the human end of the vow, when today's religions rely much more heavily on things like faith and patience and confidence in a final judgment? Most religions today expect their followers to obey God, submit offerings, and to meekly submit to whatever God wills. Ancient peoples expected to pay only for services rendered.

Even if I don't believe in the gods of other times and other places, I sense a reverence or sacredness in places where people recognized their gods, whether it's Chartres Cathedral, a temple in ancient Greece, or a Native American vision-quest site. Maybe the hallowed nature of the ground stems solely from the human effort expended on that spot, and the human hopes and reverence towards something outside of themselves, but it's still there. At least to me.

LA Ute
05-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Excellent posts, Solon and Ma'ake.

UtahDan
05-12-2013, 12:58 PM
"One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

You could say the exact thing about any mythology created for the express purpose of being infinitely important. If Unicornizm (the belief that unicorns will once again roam the earth farting eternal happiness) were true, it would be infinitely important. If I believed my toaster could transport me instantaneously anywhere through space and time, it would be of infinite importance if true. If Pauly Shore had the ability to raise the dead, it would be of infinite importance. It's a nonsensical quote where the key word Christianity could be replaced mad libs style for the same effect.

it is infuriating because it poses the single stupidest reason for being religious in that it is a good risk/reward ratio neglecting the cumative potential lost by millions of people over centuries pursuing a false reason for existing. It is the equivalent of playing spiritual lottery except with worse odds.

You know, it makes me roll my eyes too, but don't lose sight of the fact this is the believers thread. I'm not sure this is the right thread for a harsh critique, even though I'm sympathetic to your views. But maybe the believers don't mind? I don't know.

Jeff Lebowski
05-12-2013, 01:04 PM
Fascinating post, Solon. Thanks.

LA Ute
05-12-2013, 01:15 PM
You know, it makes me roll my eyes too, but don't lose sight of the fact this is the believers thread. I'm not sure this is the right thread for a harsh critique, even though I'm sympathetic to your views. But maybe the believers don't mind? I don't know.

I don't mind at all, as long as this remains a place where believers in any faith can feel comfortable discussing their faith and sharing what they value in it without ridicule, mocking, challenge, etc.

As for the Lewis quote, Sancho had it right. Lewis, a believer if ever there was one, is simply saying that Christianity's claims (its "statement") are bold, in the cosmological sense (as Solon noted). The discussion about Christianity's merits is a separate topic.

LA Ute
05-18-2013, 09:11 AM
Anybody else have their father-son overnight this weekend? We're just finishing ours. I had pancake-flipping duty and acquitted myself rather well, I think.

San Diego Ute Fan
05-18-2013, 09:38 AM
Ours is not for another 2 weeks. Where did you go?

LA Ute
05-18-2013, 10:01 AM
Ours is not for another 2 weeks. Where did you go?

Steckel Park, in the mountains between Santa Paula and Ojai. Beautiful place.

Solon
05-19-2013, 09:19 AM
Steckel Park, in the mountains between Santa Paula and Ojai. Beautiful place.

We went to Snow Canyon State park near St. George. Glorious day. Windy-Rainy night. Glorious Saturday.
Since I don't have any sons, I took my daughter.

So jealous that you were in Ojai this weekend.

LA Ute
05-19-2013, 09:28 AM
We went to Snow Canyon State park near St. George. Glorious day. Windy-Rainy night. Glorious Saturday.
Since I don't have any sons, I took my daughter.

So jealous that you were in Ojai this weekend.

It's one of my favorite places. The drive there, if you do it right, is as much fun as being there. Highway 23 north to Fillmore, 10 miles west on 126 to Santa Paula, then Ojai Road north over the mountains. Lots of places to stop, out-of-the-way eateries, mountain farms, and some spectacular views of Ventura County.

LA Ute
05-19-2013, 09:35 AM
A pretty interesting blog post by an Episcopal priest, Danielle Tumminio (who seems like a pretty cool person, based on her bio):


Don't Judge a Book of Mormon By Its Cover: How Mormons Are Discovering the Musical as a Conversion Tool (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danielle-tumminio/)

jrj84105
05-19-2013, 06:31 PM
I don't see how a toaster time machine would be of infinite importance to me. .

You underestimate the toaster. I could go find young CS Lewis, kick him in the nads, take a deuce on his carpet, and wipe my ass with his Narnia manuscript. Then I could go back a few thousand years, keep an eye on the tomb, know the Truth with certainty, and repent for the whole CS Lewis thing if applicable :)

And as others stated better, my issues were that you could make the same claim about any number of religions, and as Ma'ake said, the teachings of Jesus still hold immense value even if he wasn't a deity/savior. I just have a thing about CS Lewis; he tries to hit these high exultant notes, but just comes across as flat and tinny at best to me. Not sure why he gets under my skin so much, but from my first encounter with the Narnia stuff in grade school, I've found his writing immensely annoying.

LA Ute
05-19-2013, 07:19 PM
You underestimate the toaster. I could go find young CS Lewis, kick him in the nads, take a deuce on his carpet, and wipe my ass with his Narnia manuscript. Then I could go back a few thousand years, keep an eye on the tomb, know the Truth with certainty, and repent for the whole CS Lewis thing if applicable :)

And as others stated better, my issues were that you could make the same claim about any number of religions, and as Ma'ake said, the teachings of Jesus still hold immense value even if he wasn't a deity/savior. I just have a thing about CS Lewis; he tries to hit these high exultant notes, but just comes across as flat and tinny at best to me. Not sure why he gets under my skin so much, but from my first encounter with the Narnia stuff in grade school, I've found his writing immensely annoying.

I get it. Shall we try Chesterton next time? ;)

jrj84105
05-19-2013, 07:23 PM
I get it. Shall we try Chesterton next time? ;)
Chesterton away!

concerned
06-09-2013, 10:09 AM
saw this this morning in Real Clear Politics Religion; may be of interest to many

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

LA Ute
06-09-2013, 10:30 AM
saw this this morning in Real Clear Politics Religion; may be of interest to many

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the-spectacles-the-stone-the-hat-and-the-book-a-twenty-first-century-believers-view-of-the-book-of-mormon-translation/

Thanks. I downloaded it to my Kindle earlier this morning and look forward to reading it.

LA Ute
06-22-2013, 08:49 AM
“The Work of Salvation” Missionary Broadcast (https://www.lds.org/church/events/the-work-of-salvation-missionary-broadcast?cid=HPL1P01W01031&lang=eng)


Ward and stake council members, their spouses, full-time missionaries, and other interested Church members are invited to participate in a special session of the Seminar for New Mission Presidents entitled “The Work of Salvation,” which will be broadcast from the Marriott Center in Provo, Utah, on Sunday, June 23, 2013, at 4:00 p.m. mountain daylight time. The program will be subsequently rebroadcast to many areas of the world. President Thomas S. Monson, President Boyd K. Packer, and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles will share messages about how members and missionaries work together in a unified effort.

Where necessary, local leaders should adjust scheduled worship services so that members are able to participate in the live broadcast of this historic event.

A schedule including broadcast information for the Church satellite system, the Internet, and other media is available online at broadcastinfo.lds.org.

San Diego Ute Fan
06-24-2013, 03:01 PM
If any of you missed the live missionary broadcast yesterday, it's worth watching.

Here it is:


http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/the-work-of-salvation/2013/06?lang=eng&vid=

LA Ute
08-15-2013, 10:08 AM
Fun article:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865584709/Sistas-in-Zion-are-voices-of-humor-and-faith-on-stereotypes-misconceptions-and-all-things-Mormon.html?pg=1

LA Ute
08-15-2013, 12:22 PM
This piece, by a very smart guy who is an Evangelical Christian (and not not of the insufferable type) fits in this thread.

Yes, There is Evidence God Exists (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frenchrevolution/2013/08/14/there-is-evidence-god-exists/)

LA Ute
08-15-2013, 02:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxNMF2z4pOM#at=12

http://carmensvoice.blogs.deseretnews.com/2013/08/12/lets-talk-burnout-is-there-a-way-to-avoid-it/?s_cid=Email-4

LA Ute
09-29-2013, 07:03 AM
When I listened to this Dieter Uchtdorf talk the second time, it seemed that I had never before heard it. It made my week.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfg6NxUBkk

Solon
10-01-2013, 05:32 AM
http://www.lds.org/liahona/2013/10/our-responsibility-to-rescue/the-gift-of-jen?lang=eng

This is in the Oct. 2013 Ensign (although I don't know why it shows up as a Liahona article on lds.org).

Jen is my sister. I thought this was a really nice compliment to her.

Funny, though - I have some very different memories of my sister & the author in high school.

:drunk: (just kidding)

wuapinmon
10-02-2013, 10:10 AM
It's a nice compliment, but a specific example would help the reader identify more with how that one person's gift was so meaningful. I wanted to know more why.

Solon
10-02-2013, 05:37 PM
It's a nice compliment, but a specific example would help the reader identify more with how that one person's gift was so meaningful. I wanted to know more why.

I totally agree. I remember my sister & the author during those years. My suspicion is that the specific examples are not Ensign-approved.
:rockon:

LA Ute
10-02-2013, 05:39 PM
I totally agree. I remember my sister & the author during those years. My suspicion is that the specific examples are not Ensign-approved.
:rockon:

Probably.

Solon
10-02-2013, 05:42 PM
Probably.

She was out of your league, LA.

LA Ute
10-02-2013, 05:55 PM
She was out of your league, LA.

Probably, but more importantly out of my generation.

wuapinmon
10-02-2013, 06:02 PM
The snark of other shores is absent here.

SeattleUte
10-02-2013, 06:08 PM
Believers, here are some excellent sermons for you.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0u7ZMWqkr7cKD_rvEXZUuQ

LA Ute
10-02-2013, 06:11 PM
The snark of other shores is absent here.

852

Dwight Schr-Ute
10-02-2013, 06:14 PM
http://www.lds.org/liahona/2013/10/our-responsibility-to-rescue/the-gift-of-jen?lang=eng

This is in the Oct. 2013 Ensign (although I don't know why it shows up as a Liahona article on lds.org).

Jen is my sister. I thought this was a really nice compliment to her.

Funny, though - I have some very different memories of my sister & the author in high school.

:drunk: (just kidding)

They have to boost those Liahona numbers some how.

wuapinmon
10-03-2013, 05:37 AM
852

I believe that's DU Ute's job.

LA Ute
10-07-2013, 06:56 PM
A different twist on this thread's topic:


How Far Should Churches Go To Appeal To Men? (http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2013/10/06/how-far-should-churches-go-to-appeal-to-men/)

One church in Canada reevaluated their worship song repertoire to attract more male members. Should other churches do the same?

LA Ute
10-09-2013, 10:26 PM
If anyone is in the neighborhood on Oct. 17, this looks interesting:

The Howard W. Hunter Foundation and Mormon Studies Council at
Claremont Graduate University
are pleased to invite you to...

A Free Public Lecture
by Dr. Laurie Maffly-Kipp
Distinguished University Professor in the Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University, St. Louis

Thursday, October 17
at 7:30 p.m.
Albrecht Auditorium in Stauffer Hall
Claremont Graduate University
925 N. Dartmouth Ave.
Claremont, CA

Mormon Schisms: The Logic of Scriptural Abundance

========================
Laurie Maffly-Kipp received her B.A. from Amherst College in English and Religion (summa cum laude), and completed the PhD in American History at Yale University (1990). She spent twenty-four years at the University of North Carolina as a professor of Religious Studies, and served as department chair for five years. In 2013 she was appointed as a Distinguished University Professor in the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University in St. Louis.

Professor Maffly-Kipp's research and teaching focuses on African-American religions, religion on the Pacific borderlands of the Americas, and issues of intercultural contact. In Religion and Society in Frontier California (Yale University Press, 1994) she explored the nature of Protestant spiritual practices in Gold Rush California. In articles on Mormon-Protestant conflicts in the Pacific Islands, African-Americans in Haiti and Africa, and Protestant outreach to Chinese immigrants in California, Laurie has analyzed the religious contours of nineteenth-century American life.

She is the recipient of numerous fellowships and grants, including a grant for a collaborative project on the History of Christian Practice from the Lilly Endowment, Inc., fellowships at the National Humanities Center, and an NEH Fellowship for University Professors.

Currently Laurie is working on a survey of Mormonism in American life that will be published by Basic Books.

=======================
Driving Directions:
The best way to get to Claremont Graduate University is either from the San Bernardino (I-10) freeway or the Foothill Freeway (I - 210).
From the 10 Freeway: Exit at Indian Hill Blvd. and travel north a couple of miles to Tenth St. Turn right and travel down Tenth until you see your destination on the right at the corner with Dartmouth Ave.

From the westbound 210: Exit at Baseline/Padua and travel west, turn left and travel down Monte Vista until you reach Foothill Blvd. Turn right onto Foothill and travel one mile until you reach Dartmouth Ave. Turn left and travel down Dartmouth until you see your destination on the right hand side after crossing the intersection with Tenth St.

From the eastbound 210: Exit at Towne and turn right. Travel down Towne until you reach Foothill Blvd. Turn left onto Foothill and travel east a few miles until you reach Dartmouth Ave. Turn right and travel down Dartmouth until you see your destination on the right hand side after crossing the intersection with Tenth St.

PARKING: There is a parking lot just south of the auditorium on Dartmouth (also between Eighth and Tenth Streets) and handicapped parking spaces on 10th Street (right next to the Auditorium). For help finding your way around campus, please click on this link:Map of CGU Campus

For more information, please contact Steve Bradford at stephenlbradford@gmail.com

==========================

LA Ute
10-12-2013, 08:28 AM
This is the kind of piece that some Mormons are going to be all triumphal about, but it is an interesting perspective from a Presbyterian Evangelical who has what many call "holy envy" of LDS culture and growth:

Six Reasons Why Mormons Are Beating Baptists (In Church Growth) (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frenchrevolution/2012/07/10/six-reasons-why-mormons-are-beating-baptists-in-church-growth/)

LA Ute
10-19-2013, 07:17 PM
"My parents brainwashed me."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isLtc5lFgf8#t=10

Sisyphus
10-24-2013, 02:01 AM
His Grace is Sufficient. I wish I had this perspective growing up but I am so thankful to teach my children and share with my ward. It has transformed me:


http://youtu.be/yLXr9it_pbY

Diehard Ute
10-24-2013, 09:35 AM
This is the kind of piece that some Mormons are going to be all triumphal about, but it is an interesting perspective from a Presbyterian Evangelical who has what many call "holy envy" of LDS culture and growth:

Six Reasons Why Mormons Are Beating Baptists (In Church Growth) (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frenchrevolution/2012/07/10/six-reasons-why-mormons-are-beating-baptists-in-church-growth/)

Given that the PCA's stance on things like women's role in religion and homosexuality is far closer to the LDS church than the PCUSA's stance this really should come as no surprise.

As someone who was raised in the PCUSA, the PCA really is "Presbyterian" in historical doctrinal aspects only

LA Ute
10-24-2013, 09:54 AM
Given that the PCA's stance on things like women's role in religion and homosexuality is far closer to the LDS church than the PCUSA's stance this really should come as no surprise.

As someone who was raised in the PCUSA, the PCA really is "Presbyterian" in historical doctrinal aspects only

I've always been a little confused about the PAC and the PCUSA. I have a good friend who is a member of the PCUSA but describes himself as an Evangelical Christian. He is very conservative politically as well. Is he anomalous?

Diehard Ute
10-24-2013, 10:36 AM
I've always been a little confused about the PAC and the PCUSA. I have a good friend who is a member of the PCUSA but describes himself as an Evangelical Christian. He is very conservative politically as well. Is he anomalous?

Yeah he is.

PCUSA is not evangelical at all, and while not on the liberal end of things to the Unitarian scale, it's certainly not conservative.

Men and women are both encouraged and welcomed as ordained Ministers (I have two aunts who are ordained Presbyterian Ministers), elders, deacons etc. there is absolutely no differentiation

The issue of homosexuality is a bit dicey only because all single and homosexual ministers are, by rule, supposed to be celibate. (However this rule is not investigated for a single pastor or a homosexual pastor in most cases) But homosexuality certainly isn't considered a sin by any means.

The PCA does not allow women to hold leadership positions and feels homosexuality is a sin that can be reformed. There are other differences, but those are the most glaring.

LA Ute
10-24-2013, 10:28 PM
This will get mixed reactions, but I liked it. (Having a 16 year-old daughter has something to do with my response.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVPdk4aBZ6U

mUUser
10-25-2013, 08:10 AM
Love it. No reason to love it, but do. The adult leaders voice is awesome.

(Have a 16 y/o daughter too, so maybe that has something to do with it)

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 08:44 AM
:snack:

Devildog
10-25-2013, 10:17 AM
This will get mixed reactions, but I liked it. (Having a 16 year-old daughter has something to do with my response.)


The mullah LDS culture is amazing to me. Especially this bubble here in Utah. They honestly seem to revel in their absolute nerdiness.

I swear... if these kids made this video where I grew up, they would get their asses kicked just for participating... and well they should.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 10:32 AM
That video is horrible in every way. I would have much rather had the boulder pushing young men's leader than somebody who would try to get me to perform like that. And the boulder pusher is probably a better example.

First, I really think you'd be a more valuable contributor to this forum if you'd stop being so shy about your opinions. You too, DevilDog. ;)

Second, my daughter liked it a lot. Based on that all-important demographic, I declare this video superb.

Scratch
10-25-2013, 11:43 AM
Yes, they should. All Lone Peak students could probably benefit from more frequent beatings.

It was understood growing up that I would attend all church activities, firesides, and meetings (and I wanted to because I enjoyed them), but there were a handful (4-5 total maybe) of activities that it was just clear I would not be attending - young ambassador fireside, EFY, etc. This would have fit that category. I'm pretty sure that the attendance from my YM group would have been zero for that activity and that my YM group was superior to those boys in every measurable way. The chosen generation game and went and is now wasting time on the internet while at work.

Modesty songs, activities, proms, etc are so strange. Do we underestimate our youth, or do I underestimate the pull of immodest dress?

I believe Sancho and I may have been raised in the same family. I was a really, really good kid by LDS standards. I also treated the YW I associated with very well, especially by YM standards. That said, there was no chance in hell I would have participated in that video, and there is similarly no chance that I would have refrained from making fun of the guys who did it. I've just never been a fan of all of the "manufactured" spirituality and wholesomeness that seems to be so popular with LDS youth. I think we're doing them a big disservice when we try to create and magnify spirituality out of nothing and then shove it down their throats.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 12:19 PM
I believe Sancho and I may have been raised in the same family. I was a really, really good kid by LDS standards. I also treated the YW I associated with very well, especially by YM standards. That said, there was no chance in hell I would have participated in that video, and there is similarly no chance that I would have refrained from making fun of the guys who did it. I've just never been a fan of all of the "manufactured" spirituality and wholesomeness that seems to be so popular with LDS youth. I think we're doing them a big disservice when we try to create and magnify spirituality out of nothing and then shove it down their throats.


Yes, they should. All Lone Peak students could probably benefit from more frequent beatings.

It was understood growing up that I would attend all church activities, firesides, and meetings (and I wanted to because I enjoyed them), but there were a handful (4-5 total maybe) of activities that it was just clear I would not be attending - young ambassador fireside, EFY, etc. This would have fit that category. I'm pretty sure that the attendance from my YM group would have been zero for that activity and that my YM group was superior to those boys in every measurable way. The chosen generation came and went and is now wasting time on the internet while at work.

Modesty songs, activities, proms, etc are so strange. Do we underestimate our youth, or do I underestimate the pull of immodest dress?


The mullah LDS culture is amazing to me. Especially this bubble here in Utah. They honestly seem to revel in their absolute nerdiness.

I swear... if these kids made this video where I grew up, they would get their asses kicked just for participating... and well they should.

You are all a bunch of humorless sticks in the mud. I say this with love.

Scratch
10-25-2013, 12:38 PM
It's interesting to me that the LDS church makes so much effort emphasizing gender differences and roles, but also seems hell-bent on turning young men into a bunch of emasculated, namby pamby wusses.

wally
10-25-2013, 01:33 PM
LOL @ that youtube!!! Those YM in the vid are going to SOOOOO regret this. BTW, YW don't dress for YM, they dress for other YW. This is true of women in general. Women are concerned with how other women perceive them and their wardrobe WAYYYYYY more than what men think (at least my wife tells me this).

Based on this understanding, the video would be much more effective if instead of a bunch of dorky teenage boys singing in cracking voices about their fake desire for a modest hottie, there were a bunch of snotty looking teenage girls singing about how they will label a girl a tramp and start a salacious rumor about her if she dresses "skanky". It is more effective because it is more truthful. And honesty is a virtue too you know!

Rocker Ute
10-25-2013, 02:14 PM
This may be the first embarrassing video young LDS men have ever made.

I'm with Scratch on you couldn't have dragged me to do this, and I would have taken liberty to mock my friends who did, all while being a somewhat upstanding young man by LDS standards. However, we also shouldn't forget what it is like being a teenager regardless of faith or virtue. Goofiness and silliness just abounds.

I just watched that video with a smirk and felt grateful, like I often do when watching teenagers do what they do, that that stage of my life is over.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 03:13 PM
I want all you humorless sticks in the mud to consider he possibility that the video is only half-serious and that the dorky teen boys just had a blast making it. I say this also with love.

Scratch
10-25-2013, 03:23 PM
I want all you humorless sticks in the mud to consider he possibility that the video is only half-serious and that the dorky teen boys just had a blast making it. I say this also with love.

I never doubted that. In fact, that's what worries me.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 03:45 PM
I believe Sancho and I may have been raised in the same family. I was a really, really good kid by LDS standards. I also treated the YW I associated with very well, especially by YM standards. That said, there was no chance in hell I would have participated in that video, and there is similarly no chance that I would have refrained from making fun of the guys who did it. I've just never been a fan of all of the "manufactured" spirituality and wholesomeness that seems to be so popular with LDS youth. I think we're doing them a big disservice when we try to create and magnify spirituality out of nothing and then shove it down their throats.


Yes, they should. All Lone Peak students could probably benefit from more frequent beatings.

It was understood growing up that I would attend all church activities, firesides, and meetings (and I wanted to because I enjoyed them), but there were a handful (4-5 total maybe) of activities that it was just clear I would not be attending - young ambassador fireside, EFY, etc. This would have fit that category. I'm pretty sure that the attendance from my YM group would have been zero for that activity and that my YM group was superior to those boys in every measurable way. The chosen generation came and went and is now wasting time on the internet while at work.

Modesty songs, activities, proms, etc are so strange. Do we underestimate our youth, or do I underestimate the pull of immodest dress?

Next thing I know you naysayers will be telling those kids to get off your lawn. You're all far too young for that.

Diehard Ute
10-25-2013, 03:45 PM
I watched less than a minute. My life expectancy was just cut short.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 03:54 PM
You have my target demographic wrong. I don't hate teenagers. I hate dirtbags and people from Utah county.

I was able to get over the Utah County aspect of the video. It was not easy, I'll admit. I urge you to find it in your heart to do the same.

Scratch
10-25-2013, 03:58 PM
By the way, if that was the Lone Peak stake, doesn't that mean half those dudes are going to be playing basketball for Dave Rose? At least they're ready to contribute to the next generation of BYU's promotional videos.

LA Ute
10-25-2013, 04:07 PM
By the way, if that was the Lone Peak stake, doesn't that mean half those dudes are going to be playing basketball for Dave Rose? At least they're ready to contribute to the next generation of BYU's promotional videos.

Some of them may be savable. You never know. Many of them may yet be susceptible to the whisperings of the Ute spirit.

Scratch
10-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Some of them may be savable. You never know. Many of them may yet be susceptible to the whisperings of the Ute spirit.

Not a chance. If there's one thing we've taught our youth with today's preferred instructional methods it's that the spirit doesn't whisper, it shouts with a microphone while telling a lot of bad jokes after you pay it an appearance fee, and you can also pick up the message from the spirit in black and white for a small fee at Deseret Book. Interestingly, most youth also believe that the spirit sounds a lot like John Bytheway.

Viking
10-25-2013, 11:12 PM
That was weird. We spend a lot of time at our place in PC and I will never really understand the UC culture. Maybe Lebowski can explain this in some way.

FMCoug
10-26-2013, 12:14 PM
Your Ute educations are showing.

That was clearly not shot at Lone Peak HS so I googled Lone Peak Stake and found a DesNews article about the video. Turns out this stake is in Sandy.

Funny thing about mountains. There are multiple sides.



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FMCoug
10-26-2013, 12:18 PM
Also, since you hate kids from LP so much, we'll be happy to welcome Chase Hansen back to the fold.

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Viking
10-26-2013, 05:46 PM
I stand corrected. JL owes no explanation.

Why is sandy so weird?

chrisrenrut
10-26-2013, 06:49 PM
Your Ute educations are showing.

That was clearly not shot at Lone Peak HS so I googled Lone Peak Stake and found a DesNews article about the video. Turns out this stake is in Sandy.

Funny thing about mountains. There are multiple sides.



Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk

I take it you hate the video so much, that you came here to ensure that everyone understood that it was not filmed with kids from your neck of the woods?

LA Ute
10-26-2013, 07:17 PM
It doesn't matter where the video was made, it is the content that matters, and my daughter loved it so I don't care if you guys don't like it. (Insert here smiley sticking tongue out.)

Viking
10-26-2013, 08:49 PM
It doesn't matter where the video was made, it is the content that matters, and my daughter loved it so I don't care if you guys don't like it. (Insert here smiley sticking tongue out.)

My devout, super orthodox Mormon teenage daughter thinks it is "lame".

Different strokes for different folks

FMCoug
10-26-2013, 09:30 PM
I take it you hate the video so much, that you came here to ensure that everyone understood that it was not filmed with kids from your neck of the woods?

I am indifferent about the video. Although I live in Utah County at the moment, I am not "from" Utah at all. My observations on Utah culture are well documented on various boards. :) I was just cracking up at the fact that you all jumped on this as being a Utah County thing. The fact that folks in the Salt Lake Valley consider Utah County "the bubble" is highly amusing to me and other Mormons not from here. The whole state (and most of Idaho) are a bubble.

LA Ute
10-27-2013, 06:36 AM
So who here is in favor of modesty in dress, regardless of your feelings about regions of Utah?

CardiacCoug
10-27-2013, 11:17 AM
So who here is in favor of modesty in dress, regardless of your feelings about regions of Utah?

I think the problem I have with the video is making "virtue" synonymous with conforming to traditional LDS dress/grooming.

My idea of virtue is for my kids to be nice to and reach out to all the other kids and especially those that don't conform to the stereotypes.

I think this video makes more sense for LDS kids outside of Utah. Here in Utah they should be singing a song about the virtue of LDS kids being nice to non-LDS kids, gay kids, etc., not pressuring other kids to dress exactly like a stereotypical Mormon.

LA Ute
10-27-2013, 11:33 AM
I think the problem I have with the video is making "virtue" synonymous with conforming to traditional LDS dress/grooming.

My idea of virtue is for my kids to be nice to and reach out to all the other kids and especially those that don't conform to the stereotypes.

I think this video makes more sense for LDS kids outside of Utah. Here in Utah they should be singing a song about the virtue of LDS kids being nice to non-LDS kids, gay kids, etc., not pressuring other kids to dress exactly like a stereotypical Mormon.

I just saw it as a whimsical video that made me laugh while sending a very positive message - that young men can see beauty in modestly dressed young women, and actually admire that. I don't see anything about stereotypical dress, just some guys having fun talking about a valid principle.