The official Donald Trump thread

[U-Ute]

It appears that he's going to make the GOP nomination quite interesting. While I think this thread could be quite entertaining from that standpoint, I'm also curious as to what is going on inside that head of his.

With his Presidential announcement, I was struck with an interesting question: If he's such a great business man, why is he running for President?

I mean, from a purely business perspective, it isn't exactly the best financial investment. What was it reported that Romney spent? $50+ million? What did he get out of it? People know his name and he probably gets a lot of speaking engagements.

But Trump was already well known and well connected. I don't know if self-promotion, even on the scale of a Presidential campaign, is really going to open many doors for him.

The only conclusion I came to is that it allows him to create a super pac so people can just give him money.

Any other theories?

[Diehard Ute]

It appears that he's going to make the GOP nomination quite interesting. While I think this thread could be quite entertaining from that standpoint, I'm also curious as to what is going on inside that head of his.

With his Presidential announcement, I was struck with an interesting question: If he's such a great business man, why is he running for President?

I mean, from a purely business perspective, it isn't exactly the best financial investment. What was it reported that Romney spent? $50+ million? What did he get out of it? People know his name and he probably gets a lot of speaking engagements.

But Trump was already well known and well connected. I don't know if self-promotion, even on the scale of a Presidential campaign, is really going to open many doors for him.

The only conclusion I came to is that it allows him to create a super pac so people can just give him money.

Any other theories?

One word. Ego.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NorthwestUteFan]

One word. Ego.





Agreed.

And it must have been a HUGE hit to his ego (and pocketbook) to have NBC and Macy's dump him. NBC had for decades been the broadcast network for his Miss USA, Miss Universe, and Miss America pageants. They also broadcast his The Apprentice shows since 2005.

Macy's droped his line of expensive fragrances, ties, jewelry, etc.

In his announcement speech he stated that Mexico sends its rapists, drug runners, and charity cases. I hope he keeps it up. He writes his own jokes.

[#1 Utefan]

It appears that he's going to make the GOP nomination quite interesting. While I think this thread could be quite entertaining from that standpoint, I'm also curious as to what is going on inside that head of his.

With his Presidential announcement, I was struck with an interesting question: If he's such a great business man, why is he running for President?

I mean, from a purely business perspective, it isn't exactly the best financial investment. What was it reported that Romney spent? $50+ million? What did he get out of it? People know his name and he probably gets a lot of speaking engagements.

But Trump was already well known and well connected. I don't know if self-promotion, even on the scale of a Presidential campaign, is really going to open many doors for him.

The only conclusion I came to is that it allows him to create a super pac so people can just give him money.

Any other theories?

Or maybe he truly believes that open borders and illegal immigration are huge problems causing significant problems in this country. On this point he is 100% correct.

Where he messed up is making it sound like most of those coming here illegally are criminals and rapists. I personally think most trying to get it inare decent people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. Of course, this doesnt make it right and mean anyone from any country that wants to come here should just be able to pick up and set up shop anytime they want. While clearly the minority, there are also those that fit his description which end up contributing to gang, drug, and violence issues that and end up in our already crowded prisons on the taxpayer dime.

In true Donald fashion, his in your face, blunt way of expressing his viewpoints went too far and is now blowing up in his face. This style may be entertaining for TV but doesn't work for politicians.

With that said, make no mistake, the security at the border needs to be ratcheded up (a lot) and President Obama's do nothing but encourage more illegal immigration policies and stance is benefiting few Americans other than left wingers trying to lock in future votes so they never lose an election again.

[U-Ute]

With that said, make no mistake, the security at the border needs to be ratcheded up (a lot) and President Obama's do nothing but encourage more illegal immigration policies and stance is benefiting few Americans other than left wingers trying to lock in future votes so they never lose an election again.

Don't fall into the trap that this is just a leftist problem. The right hasn't done much to close the borders either. It's all lip service. In reality, nobody wants the borders closed down because that's where we get all of our cheap labor from.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Don't fall into the trap that this is just a leftist problem. The right hasn't done much to close the borders either. It's all lip service. In reality, nobody wants the borders closed down because that's where we get all of our cheap labor from.

I very strongly suggest that people watch the episode of HBO's 'Vice' discussing watermelon farming in rural Alabama (ep Sweet Home Alabama). The state in 2011 passed harsh regulations which made life very difficult for migrant workers (both legal and illegal) and most of them left the state.

Suddenly the watermelon farmers couldn't find anybody to harvest their melons. They tried to get prisoners, with varied results. They hired local teenagers but most didn't last more than a few days. Bottom line, it is damn hard to bend over, pluck a 20# watermelon, set it onto the truck, and repeat for 12+ hours per day, 7 days per week, with pride that "the Mexicans can do this, but it is too hard for the soft Americans".

Teaser for the Vice episode (a touch of nsfw language):

JN4IHyioXMM


This is a good write up on the episode: http://latinalista.com/palabrafinal/immigration/hbos-vice-news-takes-in-depth-look-at-alabama-after-harsh-2011-anti-immigrant-bill

If we knew what was good for us we would double their salaries, beg them to keep picking our food, and pay the extra $0.12 per pound to cover it.

Also watch 'No Reservations', season 5 episode 1. I think it is on Netflix. Anthony Bourdain travels to Mexico with his friend Carlos, who rose from an illegal immigrant to one of the top chefs in NYC. He discusses his history, talks about trying to come to the USA legally, then resorting to paying a coyote to smuggle him in. It is a very eye opening episode.

Also RIP Carlos, who died earlier this year of cancer at age 38.

Here of the episode:
k9ghXu3O0YE

[U-Ute]

If we knew what was good for us we would double their salaries, beg them to keep picking our food, and pay the extra $0.12 per pound to cover it.

I thought the open market would take care of this by raising wages.

Pay enough, and someone will do it.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Watch the show. They had a hard time finding anybody to do the work, for a salary they could afford to pay.

For a few years the farmer they interviewed had to bring in his kids, his brothers, and cousins from all over to harvest the melons themselves. They couldn't hire good workers.

And the market forces wouldn't work in their favor because melon farmers in other states didn't have the same problem. In fact they had a surplus of workers because Alabama's moved into the adjoining states.

[SoCalPat]

With that said, make no mistake, the security at the border needs to be ratcheded up (a lot) and President Obama's do nothing but encourage more illegal immigration policies and stance is benefiting few Americans other than left wingers trying to lock in future votes so they never lose an election again.

Congratulations. Everything written here is 100 percent false.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Congratulations. Everything written here is 100 percent false.

The best way to end illegal immigration? Stop eating food.

Put that in your fat pipe and smoke it, TheDonald.

[#1 Utefan]

Congratulations. Everything written here is 100 percent false.

Really? Please do tell why and how. Regardless, if you don't think most of Obama's motivation for doing nothing to stop illegal immigration isn't primarily political in narure, you are kidding yourself. Everything the guy has done (which admittedly hasn't been much) is politically motivated and geared to locking in votes changing voting patterns in the country.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Please explain how TheDonald building a border fence, deporting all illegal aliens, and putting soldiers on the border would be anything other than a purely political move.

For starters the overwhelming majority of immigrants from south of the border are a very important part of our labor force. They take jobs that often pay an illegally low wage, they pay plenty of taxes (sales, car registration, property taxes, usually pay income, etc) without the ability to participate in most welfare and government services. They often live in fear of getting stopped by police officers and getting deported, completely uprooting their families.

If anything we should make it far easier to legally immigrate.

[#1 Utefan]

Always lost in this debate on some is the reality that no country in the world with any resources to speak of allow or encourages illegal immigration. My wife is from the DR and they have a huge illegal immigration problem with Haiti. Just to clue you in, they are even more upset about illegal immigration there than we (at least our current government) seem to be here. Why don't you try moving to England, Germany, France, or Australia without work authorization and see how well that lasts before you are sent home.

Ilegal immigration and open borders is a drain on federal and local financial resources including medical, educational, emergency services. This is true in most countries, not just the US. That is why there are laws in place that while selectively enforced, exist for a reason. Undocumented illegal immigrants don't pay taxes so they are in essence taking far more from the system than they contribute. I have a friend here in Utah that works in labor and delivery at a local hospital that says they deliver babies for undocumented workers frequently. They typically pay little of the medical bill for these services. We the taxpayers pay for all of that.

I don't have a problem with documenting workers and allowing them to perform many of the jobs you reference. The important thing is they are documented and paying taxes and into the system like the rest of us. Your arguments are primarily based on emotion and anecdotal reasons why it should be allowed to continue while ignoring the big picture.. The reality is the labor issue you raise is easily remedied through documentation and temporary work visas I referenced earlier.

[Rocker Ute]

Always lost in this debate on some is the reality that no country in the world with any resources to speak of allow or encourages illegal immigration. My wife is from the DR and they have a huge illegal immigration problem with Haiti. Just to clue you in, they are even more upset about illegal immigration there than we (at least our current government) seem to be here. Why don't you try moving to England, Germany, France, or Australia without work authorization and see how well that lasts before you are sent home.

Ilegal immigration and open borders is a drain on federal and local financial resources including medical, educational, emergency services. This is true in most countries, not just the US. That is why there are laws in place that while selectively enforced, exist for a reason. Undocumented illegal immigrants don't pay taxes so they are in essence taking far more from the system than they contribute. I have a friend here in Utah that works in labor and delivery at a local hospital that says they deliver babies for undocumented workers frequently. They typically pay little of the medical bill for these services. We the taxpayers pay for all of that.

I don't have a problem with documenting workers and allowing them to perform many of the jobs you reference. The important thing is they are documented and paying taxes and into the system like the rest of us. Your arguments are primarily based on emotion and anecdotal reasons why it should be allowed to continue while ignoring the big picture.. The reality is the labor issue you raise is easily remedied through documentation and temporary work visas I referenced earlier.

Taxpayers don't pay for the cost of unpaid healthcare. The government isn't cutting a check to IHC. Healthcare consumers pay for it, but we also pay for poor utilization of healthcare of fully legal and tax paying citizens too. That's a nice way of saying healthy people pay for the unhealthy.

[#1 Utefan]

Taxpayers don't pay for the cost of unpaid healthcare. The government isn't cutting a check to IHC. Healthcare consumers pay for it, but we also pay for poor utilization of healthcare of fully legal and tax paying citizens too. That's a nice way of saying healthy people pay for the unhealthy.

Good points Rocker. It doesn't change the fact that we all end up paying and subsidizing it one way or the other, though. In my mind, the inefficient use of healthcare funds by those you reference is a separate issue and discussion.

[#1 Utefan]

On second thought Rocker, your example of IHC not being subsidized by the government may not be the best example. IHC has somehow continued to maintain the ruse that they are a not for profit entity. As a result, they are paying little to no taxes.

Anyone that has worked with or had dealings with IHC knows better. They are in every sense of the word a for profit, bottomline, and borderline monopolostic business. In other words, they are a business and should pay taxes just as most of their competitors are required to do.

[U-Ute]

Watch the show. They had a hard time finding anybody to do the work, for a salary they could afford to pay.

At the risk of sounding heartless, it sounds like the market has spoken. I understand this is a family business and all, and I feel bad for them, but if your business model means you can't afford to pay for better employees, your business model is broken.

[U-Ute]

1488

[NorthwestUteFan]

At the risk of sounding heartless, it sounds like the market has spoken. I understand this is a family business and all, and I feel bad for them, but if your business model means you can't afford to pay for better employees, your business model is broken.

If you have HBO, watch the show. (If not then PM me and I might be able to add your computer to my HBOgo account). This isn't about only one family because the law affected all of the farmers in that state. But it especially affected farmers in that county, because the county sheriff went out of his way to use the new law to harrass immigrants.

"The Market" is a very cruel mistress when you are selling to a national marketplace (at a national price), but are being being unduly crushed by a reactionary local law, while your competitors do not operate under the same business conditions.

And LOL at TheDonald's merch being made in Mexico.

[U-Ute]

If you have HBO, watch the show. (If not then PM me and I might be able to add your computer to my HBOgo account). This isn't about only one family because the law affected all of the farmers in that state. But it especially affected farmers in that county, because the county sheriff went out of his way to use the new law to harrass immigrants.

I have no doubt that the law made it difficult for them to compete with their neighbors. That's just insane. Its the same problem we have with China on a global scale.

My point was a more general one since the argument of "we can't afford to pay higher wages" is made all the time to rationalize pay scales in all industries.

[NorthwestUteFan]

They offered a fairly significant pay raise over what they were paying, but still had a hard time finding workers who were as efficient as the migrant workers.

[#1 Utefan]

If you have HBO, watch the show. (If not then PM me and I might be able to add your computer to my HBOgo account). This isn't about only one family because the law affected all of the farmers in that state. But it especially affected farmers in that county, because the county sheriff went out of his way to use the new law to harrass immigrants.

"The Market" is a very cruel mistress when you are selling to a national marketplace (at a national price), but are being being unduly crushed by a reactionary local law, while your competitors do not operate under the same business conditions.

And LOL at TheDonald's merch being made in Mexico.

Was this HBO special a Bill Maher production by chance?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Was this HBO special a Bill Maher production by chance?

He produces it, but the story was done by a contributing journalist.

Don't dismiss it out of hand based on the messenger.

[#1 Utefan]

He produces it, but the story was done by a contributing journalist.

Don't dismiss it out of hand based on the messenger.

I won't dismiss it out of hand. Something tells me, however, if I was talking up a Sean Hannity produced special on the problems and potential dangers of unchecked illegal immigration on here, you and most liberal posters would be stumbling over yourselves trying to dismiss and discredit it. I've seen that movie way too many times to think otherwise.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Again, the point of the story was to show the danger of writing emotional, reactionary laws. In this case the local outcry to seal the borders and deport all of those filthy illegals empowered the local law enforcement to chase away a significant portion of the workforce.

I am not a fan of anybody who dehumanizes another person. TheDonald is the king of this. He is the ultimate beneficiary of the Lucky Sperm Club, and has the audacity to blame a population whose aim is create a better life for their families, and to escape what amounts to a shitty civil war between drug cartels funded by users in the US of A.

'Murrica.

[U-Ute]

The next year is going to be so much fun...

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/06/1399563/-Donald-Trump-gets-into-Twitter-war-with-Modern-Family-writer-is-obliterated

EDIT: I don't know why people like that respond to comedy writers. You'll never win. It never fails to amaze me when when people like Jon Stewart or John Oliver goad people into responding. Its like that saying about wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, then you realize the pig likes it.

[Rocker Ute]

I was watching the 30 for 30 on the USFL last night, I'm now convinced that if he doesn't get the nomination that he'll run for president in Mexico or Canada and then sue the U.S. for monopolistic practices tanking the respective country in the process.

[mUUser]

Behold, The Don's 2005 tax return....

http://www.msnbc.com/sites/msnbc/files/trump2005tax.pdf

Rachel Maddow spent an hour with David Cay Johnston going over the return. Lots of anticipation to be sure, but, nothing unusual beyond the typical MSNBC speculation and innuendo. Lawrence O Donnell picked up for another 40 minutes where Maddow ended, and Maddow literally walked across the hallway to join O Donnell on his show. Johnston as well as a NYU tax attorney joined in the fun. Again, nothing revealing beyond the fact Trump made gobs of money in 2005, and paid gobs of money in 2005. The most entertaining part of the show was when Johnston said there's no way Melania Trump could've earned $1mm in salary as she was only in sleazy porns -- and which time Maddow jumped in to save the guy....and the show....from himself/itself. Brian Williams then took the baton and after about 10 minutes I turned it off. In two hours not a single interesting point was made. How does that channel stay in business?

On a related note, this is my fave Lawrence O Donnell moment......really, the guy belongs in a straightjacket rocking back and forth in a padded room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aWjIpkxcak

[U-Ute]

He's claiming that someone leaked them, but it is interesting to note they are stamped "Client Copy" leading many to speculate that he leaked his own (and I must admit - favorable) tax returns to create a false crisis.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/14/trump-may-have-leaked-his-own-tax-return-award-winning-journalist-says.html

[Utah]

I'm more appalled that he paid 24% in taxes. This is the United States. My middle class folk pay 24%, not my rich folk. How is he not smart enough to be paying 13% in taxes?

My rich people don't pay taxes, they GET help from the government. I want to tax my poor and give breaks to my rich. How dumb is this guy?

[Two Utes]

I'm more appalled that he paid 24% in taxes. This is the United States. My middle class folk pay 24%, not my rich folk. How is he not smart enough to be paying 13% in taxes?

My rich people don't pay taxes, they GET help from the government. I want to tax my poor and give breaks to my rich. How dumb is this guy?

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

[concerned]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

You and I have lots of clients who dont pay a penny in income tax, and carry forward "losses" year after year.

[Utah]

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

Ding,ding,ding.

Trump should be paying a lower tax rate than 24%.

[Utah]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

Also,youaskl
Also, your point is my point. If you are making substantial amounts of money, there are fantastic ways to change that income to a 1099 and pay a lot less taxes on it.

Whereas if you are a middle class american and you are a W-2 employee, you get screwed by the tax system and are locked into the 20-30% federal tax rate.

Why should some schlup pay 28% of his income to taxes making $150,000 a year while Mitt and Buffett pay 13% of their income to taxes?

That is my problem with the tax system. You get penalized for being less well off and pay a substantially higher taxes than those who make more money. Then, you add taxes to gas, taxes to food, property taxes, etc...

It's not good to be making less than $250,000 a year in the US. The system is designed for those who make less than $250,000 to fail, not succeed. For those making $50,000-75,000? I feel bad. You're screwed over. There is literally no shot to move up after taxes, healthcare and retirement savings. You're toast.

[concerned]

Ding,ding,ding.

Trump should be paying a lower tax rate than 24%.


I frankly don't think it is a conicidence that the first two pages of the "client copy" of Trump's 2005 return leaked, who no info as to the source of the $150 million income. Trump had that billion dollar write off from the casino bankruptcy on OPM, and likely didn't pay any taxes year after year. 2005 might have been the one year he paid taxes. Who knows.

[Utah]

I frankly don't think it is a conicidence that the first two pages of the "client copy" of Trump's 2005 return leaked, who no info as to the source of the $150 million income. Trump had that billion dollar write off from the casino bankruptcy on OPM, and likely didn't pay any taxes year after year. 2005 might have been the one year he paid taxes. Who knows.

Yeah.
This leak doesn't make any sense, unless Trump leaked it.

[Two Utes]

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

You and I have lots of clients who dont pay a penny in income tax, and carry forward "losses" year after year.

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

[Two Utes]

Also,youaskl
Also, your point is my point. If you are making substantial amounts of money, there are fantastic ways to change that income to a 1099 and pay a lot less taxes on it.

Whereas if you are a middle class american and you are a W-2 employee, you get screwed by the tax system and are locked into the 20-30% federal tax rate.

Why should some schlup pay 28% of his income to taxes making $150,000 a year while Mitt and Buffett pay 13% of their income to taxes?

That is my problem with the tax system. You get penalized for being less well off and pay a substantially higher taxes than those who make more money. Then, you add taxes to gas, taxes to food, property taxes, etc...

It's not good to be making less than $250,000 a year in the US. The system is designed for those who make less than $250,000 to fail, not succeed. For those making $50,000-75,000? I feel bad. You're screwed over. There is literally no shot to move up after taxes, healthcare and retirement savings. You're toast.

This is not true. You can't change your income to "1099" and magically stop paying taxes. Stop perpetuating this stupid shit.

[concerned]

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

If you think it is just a perception you are delusional. But we knew that anyway.

I absolutley agree that the tax code is tilted against W-2 wage earners, like us. But most business people, esp. small business, don't take income as w-2 income. And the gain on investment income is not taxed twice. That is a shioboleth, as you certainly know.

[Two Utes]

If you think it is just a perception you are delusional. But we knew that anyway.

So you concede you pay a shit pound of taxes and are in at least the top 2%. Thank you.

However you need to figure out that magical way to change your income to 1099 like Utah describes and then not pay taxes like Warren Buffett. Everybody is doing it.

You obviously need a better accountant.

[Utah]

This is not true. You can't change your income to "1099" and magically stop paying taxes. Stop perpetuating this stupid shit.

Itmost
It most certainly is true. I have two options right now:

I can pay myself as a W-2 employee and pay my 28% in taxes every year.

OR

I can pay myself a small salary as a W-2 employee, pay 20% in taxes on that amount and bonus the rest as capital gains and pay a much, much lower tax rate, taking my tax rate from 28% to less than 20%.

This "stupid shit" saves me thousands in taxes every year, and some poor guy who makes the same as me as an employee has to pay the 28% in taxes.

Like I said, the system is set up to screw the guy in the middle down.

Why should I pay 20% and Mitt pay 13%? Why should some guy making the same as me pay 28% and Mitt pays 13%?

Doesn't that seem a little messed up? Shouldn't Mitt and Trump be paying 28% and the middle class be paying 13%? Or 20%

That's the stupid shit.

[Two Utes]

Itmost
It most certainly is true. I have two options right now:

I can pay myself as a W-2 employee and pay my 28% in taxes every year.

OR

I can pay myself a small salary as a W-2 employee, pay 20% in taxes on that amount and bonus the rest as capital gains and pay a much, much lower tax rate, taking my tax rate from 28% to less than 20%.

This "stupid shit" saves me thousands in taxes every year, and some poor guy who makes the same as me as an employee has to pay the 28% in taxes.

Like I said, the system is set up to screw the guy in the middle down.

Why should I pay 20% and Mitt pay 13%? Why should some guy making the same as me pay 28% and Mitt pays 13%?

Doesn't that seem a little messed up? Shouldn't Mitt and Trump be paying 28% and the middle class be paying 13%? Or 20%

That's the stupid shit.

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

[concerned]

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

here is an example, a guy I was working with this morning. He owns a number of fast-food restaurants. He makes a really really good living. Just about all his expenses can be accounted for as business related, including his cars, his country club membership, and his hunting trips and other travel, and are paid for by the company. He hasnt paid federal income tax at least since 2005, and probably never will because of the NOL's associated with the restaurants. That happens all the time, and you know it.

[Utah]

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

Wait, I should volunteer to pay more? That is a dumb argument. No, I should not volunteer to pay more. BUT, that doesn't mean it's right.

I HATE this argument that you put forward: "Well, it benefits you, so you should just shut up and be happy".

Maybe, just maybe, I want it to be better for those behind me. Maybe, just maybe, I grew up dirt poor, and realize that if I pitch in a little more, if we all pitch in a little more, especially those who can afford it, we can make it a better place.

Maybe, just maybe, I missed the part when Jesus said, "take what you can take and screw everyone else".

Maybe I see when I pay my tax rate and someone who makes the same as me pays a higher tax rate and someone who makes exponentially more than both of us pays a lower tax rate, I think to myself, "huh, this seems off".

I duuno.

[Utah]

The tax code needs to be simplified. It shouldn't be this hard.

Do something like this:

$35,000 and under: you pay no taxes.
$35-50,000: 5% fed, 2% state, 3% health care
$50-75,000: 7%% fed, 3% state, 3% health care
$75,000-120,000: 10% fed, 4% state, 5% health care
$120-250,000: 15% fed, 7% state, 7% health care
$250,000-1,000,000: 18% fed, 10% state, 8% health care
1,000,000+: 20% fed, 11% state, 8% health care.

That's it. Whatever money you pull from whatever, is taxed at that rate. Now, there will be some issues as well, such as "I should make $999,999 instead of $1,000,000, but that's not a bad thing either. But, this is a lot better than what we have now.

[Two Utes]

here is an example, a guy I was working with this morning. He owns a number of fast-food restaurants. He makes a really really good living. Just about all his expenses can be accounted for as business related, including his cars, his country club membership, and his hunting trips and other travel, and are paid for by the company. He hasnt paid federal income tax at least since 2005, and probably never will because of the NOL's associated with the restaurants. That happens all the time, and you know it.

You should know that small businessmen like him get tagged and audited by the IRS if they don't pay a certain portion of their income to taxes. They have software that spits out guys just like him for audit if his tax payments do not equal a certain percentage of his income. Sure he gets aggressive with his deductions. But he still must pay taxes. In a business like his, he can only declare two years of losses out of 5.

As to people who are just skimming cash, they are cheating and there will always be people like them, but it's harder now because so many people use credit to pay for everything. He can't run an active business for several years without paying taxes. He is paying taxes. Perhaps not on the business because it breaks even if he distributes everything (which he likely does, just like your law firm does. Can you believe it, concerned? Yours and my law firm distribute everything to the partners every year so that the firm doesn't have to pay taxes. My firm doesn't pay taxes, can you believe it? I hate America.), but he (and we) is paying on his income. It's not as easy as you think.

I have a client who I love. He hates paying taxes (because he's paid so much tax over the years). He loves to call me for legal stuff and pay me so he can have an expense offset to the profit he makes. He'd rather do that than pay more taxes. I will repeat, he hates hates hates paying taxes. But he still has to pay taxes on his income and has for years.

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

[Utah]

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

Now,thi
Now, this is stupid shit.

[Two Utes]

The tax code needs to be simplified. It shouldn't be this hard.

Do something like this:

$35,000 and under: you pay no taxes.
$35-50,000: 5% fed, 2% state, 3% health care
$50-75,000: 7%% fed, 3% state, 3% health care
$75,000-120,000: 10% fed, 4% state, 5% health care
$120-250,000: 15% fed, 7% state, 7% health care
$250,000-1,000,000: 18% fed, 10% state, 8% health care
1,000,000+: 20% fed, 11% state, 8% health care.

That's it. Whatever money you pull from whatever, is taxed at that rate. Now, there will be some issues as well, such as "I should make $999,999 instead of $1,000,000, but that's not a bad thing either. But, this is a lot better than what we have now.

The fed is a ton higher right now than your scale.

[concerned]

You should know that small businessmen like him get tagged and audited by the IRS if they don't pay a certain portion of their income to taxes. They have software that spits out guys just like him for audit if his tax payments do not equal a certain percentage of his income. Sure he gets aggressive with his deductions. But he still must pay taxes. In a business like his, he can only declare two years of losses out of 5.

As to people who are just skimming cash, they are cheating and there will always be people like them, but it's harder now because so many people use credit to pay for everything. He can't run an active business for several years without paying taxes. He is paying taxes. Perhaps not on the business because it breaks even if he distributes everything (which he likely does, just like your law firm does. Can you believe it, concerned? Yours and my law firm distribute everything to the partners every year so that the firm doesn't have to pay taxes. My firm doesn't pay taxes, can you believe it? I hate America.), but he (and we) is paying on his income. It's not as easy as you think.

I have a client who I love. He hates paying taxes (because he's paid so much tax over the years). He loves to call me for legal stuff and pay me so he can have an expense offset to the profit he makes. He'd rather do that than pay more taxes. I will repeat, he hates hates hates paying taxes. But he still has to pay taxes on his income and has for years.

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

Everything he does is above board, done by accountants, and is perfectly legal and very common--that is the point.

[U-Ute]

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

It is a matter of percentage vs real amount.

Rich people pay a large amount of real money but a very small percentage of their wealth in taxes.

Poor people pay a small amount but a large percentage of their wealth in taxes.

Republicans like to talk about the real amount because it is a large number. Democrats prefer to talk about percentages because that is a true indicator of the impact of how much something costs.

[pangloss]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.Other than professional athletes and entertainers, most seriously rich folks don't get compensated with salaries. Hedge fund managers, for example, get millions in annual long term capital gains - which ought to be a misnomer.

[pangloss]

IRS income tax audits plummet as agency faces budget cuts (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2017/0306/IRS-income-tax-audits-plummet-as-agency-faces-budget-cuts)
draw your own conclusions

[Utah]

This was in reply to Two Utes reply to me:

Yup. It would take a drastic philosophy change. It would funnel a lot more money into the states, which would decrease reliance on federal dollars.

I'd be ok with moving the state % down as well.

Cap the state at 5% and shift the rest to fed.

My biggest issue is all the corporate welfare. I'm ok with paying taxes. I'm ok with everyone paying their fair share. BUT, when some poor mom is making $65,0000 a year paying a higher tax rate that Buffett and Romney...that's a problem.

[Two Utes]

This was in reply to Two Utes reply to me:

Yup. It would take a drastic philosophy change. It would funnel a lot more money into the states, which would decrease reliance on federal dollars.

I'd be ok with moving the state % down as well.

Cap the state at 5% and shift the rest to fed.

My biggest issue is all the corporate welfare. I'm ok with paying taxes. I'm ok with everyone paying their fair share. BUT, when some poor mom is making $65,0000 a year paying a higher tax rate that Buffett and Romney...that's a problem.

The biggest problem is the benefits we are paying retired and "disabled" state and federal employees and veterans. We're living longer. the benefits we are paying out are now extended out to three generations. Grandpa who is still alive, his kid who retired at 50, 55 or 60 and the grand kid who is actually working. That and the extremely high costs of medical care for the elderly baby boomers who are such a massive number of people. It's fucking killing this country. Our infrastructure is falling apart and no one will take on this problem because they are such a large voting block (and yes also defense costs are massive.)

[Utah]

The biggest problem is the benefits we are paying retired and "disabled" state and federal employees and veterans. We're living longer. the benefits we are paying out are now extended out to three generations. Grandpa who is still alive, his kid who retired at 50, 55 or 60 and the grand kid who is actually working. That and the extremely high costs of medical care for the elderly baby boomers who are such a massive number of people. It's fucking killing this country. Our infrastructure is falling apart and no one will take on this problem because they are such a large voting block (and yes also defense costs are massive.)



Yeah, the Baby Boomers have royally screwed a lot up.

It's just going to take a huge philosophical shift in this country. I think my generation (the damned millennials) are starting to see this and the benefits of it, but I'm not sure much will change until the Boomers die off.

And while we dig deeper into Reaganomics, other countries pass us up in terms of the "American Dream".

[Utah]

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2013/dec/19/steven-rattner/it-easier-obtain-american-dream-europe/

[mUUser]

Based on your analysis of 2 ppgs of his 1040 you could save this guy $16 million in taxes? I'm certain he'd hire you on the spot and fire the team of dolts that work for him. Once word got out that all these millionaires/billionaires are paying twice what they're obligated they'll be beating down your door for your help. The downside is you'll probably need to cut back on your UB5 posts so maybe it isn't worth it. 🙄

[Utah]

Based on your analysis of 2 ppgs of his 1040 you could save this guy $16 million in taxes? I'm certain he'd hire you on the spot and fire the team of dolts that work for him. Once word got out that all these millionaires/billionaires are paying twice what they're obligated they'll be beating down your door for your help. The downside is you'll probably need to cut back on your UB5 posts so maybe it isn't worth it. 

Yeah,you'resosmart.

You got me there.

Did I invade your safe space?

[Two Utes]

Yeah, the Baby Boomers have royally screwed a lot up.

It's just going to take a huge philosophical shift in this country. I think my generation (the damned millennials) are starting to see this and the benefits of it, but I'm not sure much will change until the Boomers die off.

And while we dig deeper into Reaganomics, other countries pass us up in terms of the "American Dream".

Yep, all of this is Reagan's fault. sheesh.

[Utah]

Yep, all of this is Reagan's fault. sheesh.

Do
I'd like if better if you posted something substantial. Why is it not Reagan's fault? How has trickle down worked? Does it not worry you that our economy looks just like it did right before the Great Depression? That it looks nothing like it did when we were at our greatest?

I guess the silver lining is that if we do have another Great Depression looming, with what Trump is doing with North Korea, we can just jump into another world war to fix it, right?

He really is trying to make America great again...just like it was in the 1930's.

[LA Ute]

A rare departure for Saturday Night Live:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=imUigBNF-TE

[pangloss]

David Cay Johnson:


Donald Trump, in writing, in his campaign documents, has said, "We’re going to get rid of the alternative minimum tax." Well, of the $36.6 million in tax that he paid, more than $31 million was because of the alternative minimum tax. And the reason for that is that that $103 million that was disallowed under the alternative minimum tax—it’s allowed under the regular tax, disallowed under the alternative—even with it being disallowed, Donald Trump still got a 20 percent tax discount on his taxes. And here’s why. At that level of income in 2005, your tax rate is 35 percent of your income. But if you’re on the alternative minimum tax, your tax rate is only 28 percent. That’s 20 percent less. So he was only paying 80 cents on the dollar to begin with. And this is part of what I’ve been writing about for years. We really have a tax system in America that very effectively and efficiently taxes your wages, your labor income. But if, like Donald Trump, you’re a business owner, and if, like Donald Trump, you’re willing to buy aggressive and dubious tax shelters and do sketchy things, you can pay very little tax. And we know that there are at least two years when Donald Trump did not pay any income taxes, even though he had multimillion-dollar income, because he had to put some of that information into the public record.

[concerned]

David Cay Johnson:

Now however the amt is way out of whack. You get hit with at if you have dependent credits and state and local income tax credits. It affects a zillion more taxpayers than it was originally intended to-- people like trump, because ut has never been indexed for inflation.

[U-Ute]

Something fun in this thread...?

Warning: Rated R for language.

Xm6w6aT6QBM

[Utah]

Ha ha. I'll go first.

While not "The Secret Life of Pets", my sex life is semi-interesting (lol...semi). We have a 9, 7, and 5 year old. So more like...lol. I found it, but I will change it a little due to the fact that this is my first (and last) year in snow for awhile...The Spy Who Came In The Cold...ha ha.

p.s. I did do a google search for spy movie titles. Thank god "The Third Man' doesn't apply...hopefully.

[Applejack]

Ha ha. I'll go first.

While not "The Secret Life of Pets", my sex life is semi-interesting (lol...semi). We have a 9, 7, and 5 year old. So more like...lol. I found it, but I will change it a little due to the fact that this is my first (and last) year in snow for awhile...The Spy Who Came In The Cold...ha ha.

p.s. I did do a google search for spy movie titles. Thank god "The Third Man' doesn't apply...hopefully.
Uh....what?