Planned Parenthood and Fetal Body Parts

[LA Ute]

I'm interested in this. Pro-life activities have never been a big part of my life, although I am very sympathetic to, and supportive of, efforts to minimize elective abortions, encourage adoption, etc. But this seems like it ought to get some attention. If the video takes the PP offiicial's statements out of context, I'd like to know. If these people are violating the law I'd like to see them prosecuted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=93&v=jjxwVuozMnU

[U-Ute]

Yes. This video was fabricated. This happened to be a top story on Reddit this morning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/3dhomj/what_the_planned_parenthood_hoax_really_proves/

EDIT - If you haven't been on Reddit before: This link sends you to a page that has a link to the story and comments from the Reddit community about the story.

[LA Ute]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/07/21/planned-parenthood-abortion-fetus-parts-kirsten-powers/30426475/


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[U-Ute]

So far, all of the states that have done investigations have turned up nothing. Now the group that produced the video is being sued.

https://www.yahoo.com/health/state-probes-find-zero-planned-parenthood-125533982837.html

[NorthwestUteFan]

Of course they haven't done anything illegal. There are proper legal channels to follow to obtain tissue and organ samples for research, and they follow those laws. If the embryo is going to be destroyed anyway, it should at least be used for research to help the living.

This video shows that one of their employees (executive?) had a bad case of gallows humor, but that is all.

[LA Ute]

Another point of view:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/421974/planned-parenthood-defenses-desperate-immoral-nonsensical


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[LA Ute]

More:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/422012/we-had-really-long-day-and-theyre-all-mixed-together-bag-center-medical-progress?q8oHZpIAvqSW02jb.01

Maybe a middle ground approach to this issue would be to limit the research use of fetal tissue to that produced by non-elective abortions. This controversy reminds me of the stem cell debate, but it seems a lot less murky and nuanced. I think most people are pretty much horrified. I know I am.

[#1 Utefan]

Of course they haven't done anything illegal. There are proper legal channels to follow to obtain tissue and organ samples for research, and they follow those laws. If the embryo is going to be destroyed anyway, it should at least be used for research to help the living.

This video shows that one of their employees (executive?) had a bad case of gallows humor, but that is all.

I continue to be amazed how the left gets so worked up over a lion in Africa being shot by a guy who thought his guides were taking him on a legal hunt but could care less about aborting mudterm living fetus's/baby's with organs.

The cavalier and disturbing attitude that has been exposed by Planned Parenthood hawking these organs is disgusting and barbaric regardless of how you try to spin it. I have a difficult time comprehending why there isn't more disgust regarding the recent videos that have come to light from the left as well. It would seem the approach and attitude demonstrated in these videos should be abhorrent to any decent person regardless of political persuasion.

Has the far left really lost so much of its moral compass that an isolated shooting of a lion in Africa is more of a tragedy and disturbing than the borderline barbaric attitude displayed by some of these Planned Parenthood executives in these videos?

[LA Ute]

I think banning late term abortions is a good middle ground approach. I see no reason for people to wait until all the organs are formed and functioning before making this decision. That would be obviously be good for the babies, and it would probably be good for many of the mothers. It may also be good for some of the doctors who seemingly lose some of their reverence for life by performing the late term abortions.

Seems like a no-brainer. By banning late-term abortions we'd limit the incentive to wait until later in a pregnancy before aborting (so that the baby's organs are better formed and more usable). Man, it makes me cringe even to type those words.


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[mUUser]

I continue to be amazed how the left gets so worked up over a lion in Africa being shot by a guy who thought his guides were taking him on a legal hunt but could care less about aborting mudterm living fetus's/baby's with organs.

The cavalier and disturbing attitude that has been exposed by Planned Parenthood hawking these organs is disgusting and barbaric regardless of how you try to spin it. I have a difficult time comprehending why there isn't more disgust regarding the recent videos that have come to light from the left as well. It would seem the approach and attitude demonstrated in these videos should be abhorrent to any decent person regardless of political persuasion.

Has the far left really lost so much of its moral compass that an isolated shooting of a lion in Africa is more of a tragedy and disturbing than the borderline barbaric attitude displayed by some of these Planned Parenthood executives in these videos?

I'm worked up over both. Where does that pigeon hole me?

[#1 Utefan]

I'm worked up over both. Where does that pigeon hole me?

It doesn't pigeon hole you anywhere (unless you want to be). What it makes you is a good, compassionate person who doesn't let their political ideology jade their thinking. Thinking that leads to rationalization of behavior that should treated with disdain and anger.

I am a conservative and feel the same as you on both issues. Where I differ from some of the nutty left and Hollywood crowd on the lion issue in that I don't think the dentist knew the lion was protected and was following his guides. I am not a hunter personally and don't think big game species with dwindling habitat and numbers like lions, rhinos, etc. should be hunted at all. My problem with the afore mentioned crowd is going so far as to issue death threats against the dentist while ignoring, downplaying, or excusing away the abhorrent behavior by Planned Parenthood. Seems most media outlets and the Hollywood crowd are far more preoccupied and concerned about the lion which strikes me as bizarre.

[Diehard Ute]

It doesn't pigeon hole you anywhere (unless you want to be). What it makes you is a good, compassionate person who doesn't let their political ideology jade their thinking that leads to rationalization of behavior that should treated with disdain and anger.

I am a conservative and feel the same as you on both issues. Where I differ from some of the nutty left and Hollywood crowd on the lion issue in that I don't think the dentist knew the lion was protected and was following his guides. I am not a hunter personally and don't think big game species with dwindling habitat and numbers like lions, rhinos, etc. should be hunted at all. My problem with the afore mentioned crowd is going so far as to issue death threats against the dentist while ignoring, downplaying, or excusing away the abhorrent behavior by Planned Parenthood. Seems most media outlets and the Holkywood crowd are far more preoccupied and concerned about the lion.

Haha, you realize the far right wing has the exact same type of crowd right?




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[LA Ute]

Haha, you realize the far right wing has the exact same type of crowd right?




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True that. Sadly so.


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[#1 Utefan]

Haha, you realize the far right wing has the exact same type of crowd right?




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Diehard, welcome to the conversation. Yes, I know there are loonies on both sides. Unfortunately, we here a lot more about the right wing than we do about the nuttie left crowd of which many in Hollywood belong. Why? It would seem for some reason that many who belong in that category are also in positions in media and movies to control the conversation.

Many that fall into this category are more concerned about this lion incident than they are about ghouls at Planned Parenthood (those that share a similar political ideology) selling aborted baby organs to the highest bidder.

As I stated, I am opposed to both. I think most big game in Africa should be off limits for hunters. That said, the response from the left (Obama abd Hillary included) on the Planned Parenthood issue has been silent while the media generally tries to ignore it and sweep it under the carpet.

Since you seem to have some opinions on these issues, care to share your thoughts?

[NorthwestUteFan]

The worst thing about this fiasco for atheists and liberals is that it will now drive up the cost of baby parts. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to stick with the all-baby diet these days? You people have no compassion for people in this difficult economy.
/s


On a serious note here is a beautiful and very poignant story about medical research on fetal/newborn tissue samples.

(TL/DR - a couple had identical twins, but one was born essentially without a brain and lived for about one week. When he died they donated his tissue for research. Several years later the mother tracked down the tissue samples and traveled to the research labs to interview the scientists. The samples have infinite value to science because they are healthy and in some cases (ESP corneas) they continue to regenerate.)

http://www.radiolab.org/story/grays-donation/

Much of the current research into cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc, is impossible without access to these types of tissues. This is the very ugly truth of the matter.

[LA Ute]

The worst thing about this fiasco for atheists and liberals is that it will now drive up the cost of baby parts. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to stick with the all-baby diet these days? You people have no compassion for people in this difficult economy.
/s


On a serious note here is a beautiful and very poignant story about medical research on fetal/newborn tissue samples.

(TL/DR - a couple had identical twins, but one was born essentially without a brain and lived for about one week. When he died they donated his tissue for research. Several years later the mother tracked down the tissue samples and traveled to the research labs to interview the scientists. The samples have infinite value to science because they are healthy and in some cases (ESP corneas) they continue to regenerate.)

http://www.radiolab.org/story/grays-donation/

Much of the current research into cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc, is impossible without access to these types of tissues. This is the very ugly truth of the matter.

I wonder if there could be a ban on use of fetal tissue from elective abortions. That would solve the moral/ethical problem, but would also reduce the amount of tissue available. For me that's an easy trade-off.

[jrj84105]

I wonder if there could be a ban on use of fetal tissue from elective abortions. That would solve the moral/ethical problem, but would also reduce the amount of tissue available. For me that's an easy trade-off.
You couldn't really get fetal tissues from non-elective abortions (miscarriages) because fetal demise is typically not immediately recognized, and even if it were the delay between recognition of fetal demise and completion of informed consent for tissue harvesting would preclude the procurement of viable tissue. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, this policy would completely halt research utilizing embryronic stem cells. And seeing as that's the only minutely redeeming aspect of this practice it would be a real shame.

I think a better policy would be to preclude whole organ collection since the clearly illegal and (in the context of abortion) unethical portion is the alteration of the procedure, in potentially unsafe ways, to accommodate whole organ procurement. It's unthinkably gruesome, and no one can talk about the practicalities of salvaging some benefit for mankind from this event without sounding like a monster, but I don't think that means that stem cell procurement shouldn't happen.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I fear that putting further restrictions on the procurement of tissue samples could create a black market for tissues from foreign countries. The live-donor organ trade worldwide already does this to some extent. (Not quite to the level of 'waking up in a tub of ice with a new incision and one fewer kidney', but still...)

Conversely it could lead to reductions in research. It is impossible to use a synthetic tissue to perform the same research, and without the tissues we cannot progress in our body of knowledge. A very large portion of all medical research is performed in the USA and restrictions based on emotions could yield far-reaching consequences for all of humanity.

It is gruesome to think about, and of course the rhetoric of tearing up babies and throwing them into a sink is highly emotional. But it is perhaps useful to remember that 91%+ of all abortions in the USA happen before 13 weeks, with an additional 8% between 13-18 weeks gestation.

And if we are talking about harvesting stem cells from an embryo we need to remember that the brain of the fly you just smashed with a flyswatter contained an order of magnitude more cells than the entire embryo.

Comprehending the situation requires a significant amount of nuance, and politicians popping off uninformed will not help.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

After Chaffetz's high publicized buffoonery with the Planned Parenthood q&a earlier this week, he's decided to run for House Speaker. God help us.

Even the D News seems to be trolling him with their photo choice.

Chaffetz is planning run for U.S. House speaker, sources say
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865638094/?user=app


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[NorthwestUteFan]

I am not much of a Seth Myers fan but this is a good discussion of the whole Planned Parenthood congressional witch hunt hearing this week.

K7pNkqVmNKM

The video that Carly Fiorina mentioned in her statement at the last debate ('a living baby was born then had its brain harvested') was in fact a video made from pictures of a baby that was born tragically at 19 weeks and only lived a few minutes. The family took some pictures holding him, sharing his brief life. The family did NOT give authorization for their pictures to be used for that video, although they won't press the issue. Carly Fiorina got duped, and did not realize it.

The person who SHOULD have been called to testify in that hearing is the president of Center for Medical Progress, David Daleiden (who put together that highly dishonest 'sting' video on PP). But there is no way they would call him to testify as his entire story would unravel in mere minutes and undermine the entire purpose of that hearing.

This entire hullabaloo about defunding PP is such a strange thing. PP doesn't get a fat check from the government; they get reimbursed for services provided. The only way to 'defund' the organization at the Federal level would be to pass a law that forbids them from billing for medical charges, or by collectively revoking their medical licenses somehow.

The chart shown in this vid by byu-p placekicker Jason Chaffetz purports to show a decrease in breast exams and a corresponding increase in abortions. But the scales are completely out of whack. The truth is the number of abortions increased over the time scale at a rate of about half the increase of the total US population increase (from ~315k to ~325k). Breast exams decreased from ~970k to ~950k over the same time frame. But the chart shows them overlapping. And this is even more out of scale if you compare the TOTAL amount of annual patient visits to the number of abortions. The total number of discrete patient visits is on the order of 10.5M annually vs the 325k abortions.

I don't care what opinion people have of PP, but you have to admit that Exec Director Cecile Richards is a cool cat. Just like her mom (former Texas Governor Anne Richards).

[LA Ute]

I am not much of a Seth Myers fan but this is a good discussion of the whole Planned Parenthood congressional witch hunt hearing this week.

K7pNkqVmNKM

The video that Carly Fiorina mentioned in her statement at the last debate ('a living baby was born then had its brain harvested') was in fact a video made from pictures of a baby that was born tragically at 19 weeks and only lived a few minutes. The family took some pictures holding him, sharing his brief life. The family did NOT give authorization for their pictures to be used for that video, although they won't press the issue. Carly Fiorina got duped, and did not realize it.

The person who SHOULD have been called to testify in that hearing is the president of Center for Medical Progress, David Daleiden (who put together that highly dishonest 'sting' video on PP). But there is no way they would call him to testify as his entire story would unravel in mere minutes and undermine the entire purpose of that hearing.

This entire hullabaloo about defunding PP is such a strange thing. PP doesn't get a fat check from the government; they get reimbursed for services provided. The only way to 'defund' the organization at the Federal level would be to pass a law that forbids them from billing for medical charges, or by collectively revoking their medical licenses somehow.

The chart shown in this vid by byu-p placekicker Jason Chaffetz purports to show a decrease in breast exams and a corresponding increase in abortions. But the scales are completely out of whack. The truth is the number of abortions increased over the time scale at a rate of about half the increase of the total US population increase (from ~315k to ~325k). Breast exams decreased from ~970k to ~950k over the same time frame. But the chart shows them overlapping. And this is even more out of scale if you compare the TOTAL amount of annual patient visits to the number of abortions. The total number of discrete patient visits is on the order of 10.5M annually vs the 325k abortions.

I don't care what opinion people have of PP, but you have to admit that Exec Director Cecile Richards is a cool cat. Just like her mom (former Texas Governor Anne Richards).


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424689/fiorina-chuck-todd-abortion-videos-do-you-think-not-happening-jim-geraghty

[NorthwestUteFan]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/424689/fiorina-chuck-todd-abortion-videos-do-you-think-not-happening-jim-geraghty

Can you give an exec summary?

[U-Ute]

Can you give an exec summary?

Fiorino: "Well, yeah, we lied, but can you say that's not happening?"

[LA Ute]

Do you guys think there are any legitimate questions or concerns about PP and fetal tissue?

[U-Ute]

I don't even know if I understand the rules well enough to say.

What I can say is I don't necessarily trust the people attacking the system because they keep using unscrupulous techniques to try and discredit them and if they had any real information they wouldn't have to resort to trying to trick people.

[LA Ute]

I don't even know if I understand the rules well enough to say.

What I can say is I don't necessarily trust the people attacking the system because they keep using unscrupulous techniques to try and discredit them and if they had any real information they wouldn't have to resort to trying to trick people.

I get that and am no activist in this area. But as I understand it the people who made the videos used typical investigative reporter-type techniques. They also made complete unedited versions of their videos available so no one can say they edited them unfairly. I don't know that PP violated any laws but if what they do is callous and repulsive to people, and taxpayers are funding it, there's no reason not to shine a spotlight on it. Just my opinion.

[U-Ute]

I get that and am no activist in this area. But as I understand it the people who made the videos used typical investigative reporter-type techniques. They also made complete unedited versions of their videos available so no one can say they edited them unfairly. I don't know that PP violated any laws but if what they do is callous and repulsive to people, and taxpayers are funding it, there's no reason not to shine a spotlight on it. Just my opinion.

If they have the complete unedited videos available, then whomever understands the law can make a decision as to whether or not they are doing anything illegal.

Until I hear that the videos actually show something, then I'll have to assume everything is fine.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Do you guys think there are any legitimate questions or concerns about PP and fetal tissue?

Absolutely. And those questions do get asked. And in this case medical ethics committees and/states attorney general in twelve separate states DID investigate.

From New England Journal of Medicine:



Along the way, the target broadened, and the use of fetal tissue in research was also attacked. Portrayed as ghoulish vivisection and body-part snatching, it was decried as barbaric by members of Congress. Within weeks, inquiries were announced in Arizona, Indiana, Florida, Kansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas; Arizona began looking into making it more difficult to provide tissue; and bills were drafted in Wisconsin and California to make it virtually impossible to use fetal tissue or fetal cells. The inquiries revealed no law broken by Planned Parenthood, but only time will tell how many bills become law.


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1510279

[Rocker Ute]

If they have the complete unedited videos available, then whomever understands the law can make a decision as to whether or not they are doing anything illegal.

Until I hear that the videos actually show something, then I'll have to assume everything is fine.

I think for a lot of people it is just repulsive to hear someone speak so callously and non-chalantly and often even pridefully about killing fetuses. I watched some of these videos, I wish I hadn't.

Also, as far as the purported deception by Fiorina regarding these videos you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe that what they were showing were actual pictures and video of the abortion practices as described by the former abortion technician. She is recounting her co-worker's triggering the heart of a 19 week old fetus and then cutting down its face to procure the brain. They also show a fetus that is still breathing but discarded in a bowl with some surgical tools. I don't know what that video is from but it is terribly painful to see it being treated like that. I wish I hadn't seen it.

The problem in all of this is people are realizing exactly what is going on with these procedures and realizing it is really disturbing. Hearing a woman over lunch describing forcing a soon to be aborted fetus to be delivered breach because it is easier to chop it up and also keep the brain intact is shocking.

I get that people who deal with awful things often become callous or have gallows humor or what not, but it is as disturbing as if you realized a mortician was being callous or disrespectful to the deceased. It probably happens with some but is better not seen.


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[SeattleUte]

Poor women need Planned Parenthood. They are among society's most vulnerable and at risk people. That is the bottom line. People who are deploying whatever was said -- callous or even illegal as it may have been (I've really not read it, I admit) -- are evil, for lack of a better term.

[Rocker Ute]

Honest question: what care for the poor that is provided by PP isn't now covered through Obamacare?


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[LA Ute]

That is a practical question for an issue that is merely symbolic.

Conservatives blew this opportunity (surprise). They had a great chance with the videos to build momentum against late term abortions, but they allowed the debate to center on PP funding instead. No way they win that fight. The real question has been completely swept away.

I think you are right.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Pardon my French, but the 'Defund PP!' attempt is just fucking stupid. PP doesn't get a fat check delivered to them on a silver platter by the gubmint. They are reimbursed for ICD-9 charges just like every other hospital and clinic in the nation (except those who do not bill insurance and/or Medicare). Even a placekicker from byu should be able to comprehend that. I can envision the politicians who keep pushing this trope covering themselves in white ash, spraying chrome paint on their mouths, and screaming, "Witness Me!! " a la the War Boys in Mad Max:Thunder Road.

Witness Me!

y4cafPOBubc

[Rocker Ute]

Sancho hit it on the mark, the right got distracted by the shiny thing and went for the defund PP, when it was a real opportunity to show just how deplorable late term abortion really is.

[LA Ute]

Sancho hit it on the mark, the right got distracted by the shiny thing and went for the defund PP, when it was a real opportunity to show just how deplorable late term abortion really is.

Ted Cruz has a lot of responsibility for that. He's an egotist and most of the positions he takes are for his own political benefit. Yes, almost all politicians are like that but he takes it to the extreme. Shutting down the government is a stupid thing to do, for example, but it energizes his base so he makes that his hobby horse. This last time around the adult Republicans in the room shut him down instead.

[Rocker Ute]

Ted Cruz has a lot of responsibility for that. He's an egotist and most of the positions he takes are for his own political benefit. Yes, almost all politicians are like that but he takes it to the extreme. Shutting down the government is a stupid thing to do, for example, but it energizes his base so he makes that his hobby horse. This last time around the adult Republicans in the room shut him down instead.


So there is hope...

[Diehard Ute]

Yeah, but it's stupid on both sides. It's purely symbolic. On the one hand, PP doesn't cost us more than another clinic would. On the other, we already have other clinics to cover these health issues. The whole debate is really about separating things so that PP only deals in abortion.

But many places don't have other clinics that cover those things.

PP also will charge on a sliding scale for those who don't have the ability to pay. This is especially important in the states that have refused to expand Medicaid. (See Utah)


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[Devildog]

I just stumbled on this damn thread. Makes me want to use forceps to crush that damn doctor's calvarium. What a callous bitch she is.

[LA Ute]

The onion "goes there."

Defunded Planned Parenthood Reassures Supporters It Has Enough Fetus Cash To Keep Going (http://www.theonion.com/article/defunded-planned-parenthood-reassures-supporters-i-51662)

[NorthwestUteFan]

Congress establishes a committee to investigate abortion providers. This committee will spend a lot of time and money and will build a lot of political capital for politicians, and will ultimately come to the same conclusion as the 12 state committees, AGs, and medical ethics boards. Nothing illegal happened and medical ethics have not been violated.

[LA Ute]

PP needs to get better at PR.

http://freebeacon.com/issues/ohio-planned-parenthood-facilities-dispose-aborted-fetuses-landfills/

[Diehard Ute]

PP needs to get better at PR.

http://freebeacon.com/issues/ohio-planned-parenthood-facilities-dispose-aborted-fetuses-landfills/

That article is woefully short of detail.

Here's one with a bit more information

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/12/11/dewine-fetal-parts-go-landfills/77151954/




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[LA Ute]

That article is woefully short of detail.

Here's one with a bit more information

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/12/11/dewine-fetal-parts-go-landfills/77151954/




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It does fill in some details. In every state I know about, however, the buck stops with the medical provider to be sure tissue is disposed of properly. PP needs to deal with its contracted disposal entity. Still bad PR.

[NorthwestUteFan]

It does fill in some details. In every state I know about, however, the buck stops with the medical provider to be sure tissue is disposed of properly. PP needs to deal with its contracted disposal entity. Still bad PR.

It is the same with hazardous waste. About 15 years ago there was a scandal in Utah where a company was found dumping oil in the West Desert. Apparently they gathered used oil from auto parts stores, dealers, lube centers, etc, and were being paid to take it for 'recycling'. They were digging a hole in the ground and dumping it.

Well when people would drop off waste oil at the local auto parts store they would collect some info from them. Guess who the EPA was threatening to fine for dumping the oil? They wanted to hit the original 'producers' of the various hazardous waste streams. Thus means every shade tree mechanic who dropped off 5 quarts at Autozone was at risk.

Fortunately the state was able to sort it all out, otherwise thousands of people potentially could have been fined thousands of dollars each for the actions of one bad actor.

The waste disposal company should take a huge hit in this. They should also be investigated for the disposal of other medical waste. Chances are very good that they improperly disposed of plenty of other things, since it must be cheaper to chuck it in the garbage than to incinerate it.

[Diehard Ute]

It does fill in some details. In every state I know about, however, the buck stops with the medical provider to be sure tissue is disposed of properly. PP needs to deal with its contracted disposal entity. Still bad PR.

Which may be true

But if that's the case it sure makes this appear to be politically motivated, since Ohio's AG admits he didn't look at the disposal of anything else


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[LA Ute]

Which may be true

But if that's the case it sure makes this appear to be politically motivated, since Ohio's AG admits he didn't look at the disposal of anything else


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Of course he is trying to score political points. He's from a political family (his dad was Senator for decades) and he has ambitions.

[SeattleUte]

Wow. Turned tables.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us/2-abortion-foes-behind-planned-parenthood-videos-are-indicted.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[LA Ute]

Wow. Turned tables.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us/2-abortion-foes-behind-planned-parenthood-videos-are-indicted.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Lol.


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[LA Ute]

Texas DA withdraws all remaining charges against CMP’s Daleiden over Planned Parenthood videos
http://hotair.com/archives/2016/07/26/texas-da-withdraws-all-remaining-charges-against-cmps-daleiden-over-planned-parenthood-videos/