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LA Ute
08-06-2015, 06:47 PM
Really interesting P.F. Stack article:

In Mormonism’s crystal ball: a black apostle, more top women leaders, fewer temple weddings? (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2812387-155/in-mormonisms-crystal-ball-a-black)

UtahsMrSports
08-07-2015, 11:41 AM
Really interesting P.F. Stack article:

In Mormonism’s crystal ball: a black apostle, more top women leaders, fewer temple weddings? (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2812387-155/in-mormonisms-crystal-ball-a-black)




Interesting predictions.

Reminded me that a couple of times Peggy has "heard" that the church was discussing a couple of things and then hasn't really followed up on either. First was that all couples would be married civilly for one year before being allowed to be sealed, due to apparently a lot of work that goes into temple divorces and the cancellation of sealings. Second was that a couple could, if they chose, be married civilly first and then immediately go and be sealed. the obvious benefit of this one being that it would lessen the feelings of exclusion that can detract from a wedding day.

WOnder if either every comes to be.

DrumNFeather
08-07-2015, 11:53 AM
Interesting predictions.

Reminded me that a couple of times Peggy has "heard" that the church was discussing a couple of things and then hasn't really followed up on either. First was that all couples would be married civilly for one year before being allowed to be sealed, due to apparently a lot of work that goes into temple divorces and the cancellation of sealings. Second was that a couple could, if they chose, be married civilly first and then immediately go and be sealed. the obvious benefit of this one being that it would lessen the feelings of exclusion that can detract from a wedding day.

WOnder if either every comes to be.

I Think it makes a lot of sense to do that.

mUUser
08-07-2015, 12:35 PM
1. I don't need clapping, guitars and brass bands for church, but understand how it appeals to some.
2. I believe younger members will leave in droves until some of these reforms are instituted.
3. I would hope to see an AA apostle by the end of the decade, or end of the year, as opposed to the end of the century.
4. I would hope that the woman sitting next to the male leadership is a priesthood holder. In fact, I hope she IS part of the leadership. But if not, its a baby step in the right direction.
5. I would like to see the church get out of the wedding business altogether and only do sealings.
6. By far the most important prediction is that the church focuses like a BELLA laser on Christ and His teachings, and largely dismisses pioneer sermons and testimonies of Joseph Smith.

LA Ute
08-07-2015, 02:01 PM
5. I would like to see the church get out of the wedding business altogether and only do sealings.I think this will happen.


6. By far the most important prediction is that the church focuses like a BELLA laser on Christ and His teachings, and largely dismisses pioneer sermons and testimonies of Joseph Smith.

In my (our) lifetimes it is clear this has been happening. I don't think the bolded part will go away but the proportion of time and focus those topics will get will diminish. Pioneers more so than JS.

Rocker Ute
08-07-2015, 02:09 PM
1. I don't need clapping, guitars and brass bands for church, but understand how it appeals to some.
2. I believe younger members will leave in droves until some of these reforms are instituted.
3. I would hope to see an AA apostle by the end of the decade, or end of the year, as opposed to the end of the century.
4. I would hope that the woman sitting next to the male leadership is a priesthood holder. In fact, I hope she IS part of the leadership. But if not, its a baby step in the right direction.
5. I would like to see the church get out of the wedding business altogether and only do sealings.
6. By far the most important prediction is that the church focuses like a BELLA laser on Christ and His teachings, and largely dismisses pioneer sermons and testimonies of Joseph Smith.

I think you just described mainstream Christianity. A close friend of mine who was a convert but left the church said to me, "I don't get it, the church has a lot more appeal being weird than it does being mainstream." I think embracing some of the things of our past, including the seer stone, is kind of doing that. I'll note that the FLDS people and those other spin-offs aren't shocked in the least by these recent essays... they've known this stuff all along. Their criticism of the mainstream LDS church is departure from the history both big and small.

UtahsMrSports
08-07-2015, 02:26 PM
I am not sure what you guys mean by "wedding business"? Im not sure what else is done besides sealings and bishops marrying people? Sorry, its Friday after a long week.....

mpfunk
08-07-2015, 02:47 PM
I think this will happen.



In my (our) lifetimes it is clear this has been happening. I don't think the bolded part will go away but the proportion of time and focus those topics will get will diminish. Pioneers more so than JS.

I disagree that this is happening. Let me ask you a simple question, what have you heard sung more often in church Praise to the Man or A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief? I heard the former at least every few months, can't remember the last time I heard the later.

Edit: This question equally applies to what have you heard more often, We Thank Thee Oh God for a Prophet or A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief.

LA Ute
08-07-2015, 03:05 PM
I disagree that this is happening. Let me ask you a simple question, what have you heard sung more often in church Praise to the Man or A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief? I heard the former at least every few months, can't remember the last time I heard the later.

Edit: This question equally applies to what have you heard more often, We Thank Thee Oh God for a Prophet or A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief.

I think experiences vary. It will be harder, IMO, for Utah-centric Mormons to make the shift in emphasis than, say, those in Latin America, because they are not as wedded to the Utah culture. (This is not a knock on any culture; I'm just trying to describe what I see. And, I am speculating because I have very little info about what is actually happening in this regard in the Jello Belt.) In my area it's clear this shift is happening.

Also, I think there are better indicators than the hymns we are singing. Go online and look at the subjects of General Conference talks over the last 5 years and see how many focus on the Atonement. In our stake, based on guidance from our area authority, bishoprics are asking that every sacrament meeting talk be tied in to Jesus Christ and the Atonement. So maybe by view is anecdotal; I hope not. That's just what I am seeing.


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Sullyute
08-09-2015, 08:10 AM
A close friend of mine who was a convert but left the church said to me, "I don't get it, the church has a lot more appeal being weird than it does being mainstream."

I am not a fan of the misogyny in the church and some of the recent changes have been good steps to overcome that, but i agree with your friend....Keep Mormonism Weird.

LA Ute
08-09-2015, 02:01 PM
My experience in Latin America is that the Mormons there also like Joseph Smith. But they call him Jose.

By "harder", do you mean it will be a 1 on the hardness scale instead of a 0? It's not like there's any resistance to Christ worship in the Mormon faith.

Fair enough; I wasn't clear. I agree, it would be absurd to say there's any such resistance -- the contrary is true. I meant the proportion of time and focus given to topics like 1800s pioneer stories. (I say this as a descendant of many pioneers and a lover of those stories.) We'll hear more about more modern pioneers and a very high proportion of anything we hear, no matter the topic, will tie in to the Atonement. Our view of Christ's nature and of the Atonement are quite different from most other faiths (it bothers many Evangelicals and makes us non-Christian to their minds) so we'll be plenty unique.

I served my mission from 1973-1975. The missionary lesson in those days were:

The Restoration (JS + BofM)
Plan of Salvation -- pre-existence, mortal life as a test
Current church's structure (apostles, prophets, etc.)
The commandments (tithing, sabbath day, chastity, WofW)
"Truth vs. Error" -- how to know the truth, the need to repent
Our Relationship with Christ (His role as Creator, the Atonement -- including both resurrection and forgiveness of sins), His Role as our eventual Judge
Our future in the Kingdom (for newly baptized members)

Only one lesson focused on Christ. Now, if you look at Preach My Gospel, you'll see that everything is Christ-focused in some way. I am not criticizing the way we were taught in the past, just saying that we are getting better at it and focusing more on Jesus Christ. Even the change in the church logo shows that emphasis.

LA Ute
08-12-2015, 11:19 AM
By "harder", do you mean it will be a 1 on the hardness scale instead of a 0? It's not like there's any resistance to Christ worship in the Mormon faith.

This is relevant to the point you and I were discussing. It's an interesting perspective from a non-Mormon observer, in the journal First Things:

MORMONISM OBSESSED WITH CHRIST (http://www.firstthings.com/article/2012/02/mormonism-obsessed-with-christ)



I too used to think of Mormonism as little more than an exotic and abnormal addition to Christianity. When I taught Mormon history to my students, I emphasized its remarkable spirit of endurance, its organizational savvy, and the sheer scope of its religious imagination. Yet I regret to say that I did not try to hide my condescension.

I have come to repent of this view, and not just because I came to my senses about how wrong it is to be rude toward somebody else’s faith. I changed my mind because I came to realize just how deeply Christ-centered Mormonism is. Mormonism is more than Christianity, of course—most obviously by adding the Book of Mormon to the Bible—and that makes it much less than Christianity as well. Nevertheless, the fact that Mormonism adds to the traditional Christian story does not necessarily mean that it detracts from Christianity to the point of denying it altogether.

After all, what gives Christianity its identity is its commitment to the divinity of Jesus Christ. And on that ground Mormons are more Christian than many mainstream Christians who do not take seriously the astounding claim that Jesus is the Son of God.

Mormonism is obsessed with Christ, and everything that it teaches is meant to awaken, encourage, and expand faith in him. It adds to the plural but coherent portrait of Jesus that emerges from the four gospels in a way, I am convinced, that does not significantly damage or deface that portrait....

mUUser
08-14-2015, 12:40 PM
I think you just described mainstream Christianity. A close friend of mine who was a convert but left the church said to me, "I don't get it, the church has a lot more appeal being weird than it does being mainstream." I think embracing some of the things of our past, including the seer stone, is kind of doing that. I'll note that the FLDS people and those other spin-offs aren't shocked in the least by these recent essays... they've known this stuff all along. Their criticism of the mainstream LDS church is departure from the history both big and small.

I guess I see it differently. There's lots that distinguish the LDS Church from others.....our positions on the Godhead/Trinity, immortality and eternal life, heaven/hell and our accompanying breadth of the Atonement, Eternal Marriage/Families, temple covenants, full time missionary work and the list goes on and on. Generally speaking I can embrace the uniqueness, but not the bizarro/wierdness.


I am not sure what you guys mean by "wedding business"? Im not sure what else is done besides sealings and bishops marrying people? Sorry, its Friday after a long week.....

Been 28 years ago but in the day if you married outside the temple, then it was a one year wait to be sealed, even if both parties held a temple recommend. You had to be married in the temple to be sealed immediately. Is this not the case anymore?

If not, I suppose, at minimum, I'd like to see the church waive the one year wait period.

Also, if I recall, we didn't actually exchange rings in the temple. Has the church issued an opinion on "ring ceremonies" to follow the temple wedding? This could be a viable option for some.

LA Ute
08-14-2015, 01:07 PM
I guess I see it differently. There's lots that distinguish the LDS Church from others.....our positions on the Godhead/Trinity, immortality and eternal life, heaven/hell and our accompanying breadth of the Atonement, Eternal Marriage/Families, temple covenants, full time missionary work and the list goes on and on. Generally speaking I can embrace the uniqueness, but not the bizarro/wierdness.



Been 28 years ago but in the day if you married outside the temple, then it was a one year wait to be sealed, even if both parties held a temple recommend. You had to be married in the temple to be sealed immediately. Is this not the case anymore?

If not, I suppose, at minimum, I'd like to see the church waive the one year wait period.

Also, if I recall, we didn't actually exchange rings in the temple. Has the church issued an opinion on "ring ceremonies" to follow the temple wedding? This could be a viable option for some.

People exchange rings but it's not part of the ordinance. We did, 34 years ago.

Outside the U.S. people are married outside the temple and then immediately sealed. I think that has to do with local laws. I'd really like to see that relaxed in the USA but I think I understand what are probably the arguments against doing so. The church wants temple marriage to be the goal of all unmarried members. Allowing people to have a big fancy wedding and then schedule the sealing later tends to put the temple ceremony in second place. Not sure how to address that.


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U-Ute
09-11-2015, 02:19 PM
Quite possibly the end of the world (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2935776-155/some-mormons-stocking-up-amid-fears).

LA Ute
09-11-2015, 02:56 PM
Quite possibly the end of the world (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2935776-155/some-mormons-stocking-up-amid-fears).

LOL. I see this as the kind of thing that pops up among a tiny minority of Mormons along the Wasatch Front and in the Great Basin area generally (bless their hearts!). I don't know why Peggy thought it was newsworthy.

Rocker Ute
09-11-2015, 03:16 PM
Perfect time for the end of the world, I'll just be wrapping up a vacation and I likely won't want to go back to work anyway.


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