The new prison

[LA Ute]

I'm not plugged into this issue, but I'm very curious. What state decides to build a new prison in its largest city -- its capital city, no less? And near the large and growing international airport? Is this an effort by the Legiature's conservatives to stick it to Salt Lake City?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

I'm not plugged into this issue, but I'm very curious. What state decides to build a new prison in its largest city -- its capital city, no less? And near the large be growing international airport? Is this an effort by the Legiature's conservatives to stick it to Salt Lake City?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A few things

The entire reason for moving the prison is monetary. Many in the legislature, and their big money friends, are in line to personally benefit from developing that land in Draper.

None of the final 4 site cities had a representative on the relocation committee. The chairs both represented western Davis County, whose site was removed quickly into the process. The others represented Cedar City, Price, West Valley, Murray and Kearns.

Once the decision was made that moving the prison was necessary (which is very debatable to anyone but the legislature) the available locations were quite slim due to future cost issues.

It's unfortunate the state is so short sighted. Salt Lake City already has a huge correctional population with halfway houses and other transitional centers. Couple that with the LDS Church, SLCC and the U and approximately half of SLC pays no property taxes. Moving the prison into SLC limits significantly adds to this.

I don't necessarily think it's the intent to stick it to SLC, as much as it's another example of the poor management skills most state legislators have (probably what we deserve for having a $14.3B business run by people who work a couple months a year running it)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

A few things

The entire reason for moving the prison is monetary. Many in the legislature, and their big money friends, are in line to personally benefit from developing that land in Draper.

None of the final 4 site cities had a representative on the relocation committee. The chairs both represented western Davis County, whose site was removed quickly into the process. The others represented Cedar City, Price, West Valley, Murray and Kearns.

Once the decision was made that moving the prison was necessary (which is very debatable to anyone but the legislature) the available locations were quite slim due to future cost issues.

It's unfortunate the state is so short sighted. Salt Lake City already has a huge correctional population with halfway houses and other transitional centers. Couple that with the LDS Church, SLCC and the U and approximately half of SLC pays no property taxes. Moving the prison into SLC limits significantly adds to this.

I don't necessarily think it's the intent to stick it to SLC, as much as it's another example of the poor management skills most state legislators have (probably what we deserve for having a $14.3B business run by people who work a couple months a year running it)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've seen that number that half of SLC doesn't pay property taxes and I'd love to see a source. That doesn't ring remotely true to me (although I'll happily admit I'm wrong) and I'd also love to see how that stacks against other similar sized cities. We aren't the first with public and religious buildings.

One other point: tax revenue from the proposed location can't be that high. If you are familiar with the area it is near a dump, a nature preserve and the airport on basically useless land currently held by Rio Tinto. It isn't developable in any revenue generating sort of way, nor will it ever be. Conversely the land in Draper has increased in value dramatically as part of the growing 'Silicon Slopes' corridor and limited remaining developable land. For the state that will increase tax revenue generating property pretty dramatically. Keep in mind, 70 years ago Bluffdale was essentially the middle of nowhere.

As for your statements about an inept and corrupt legislature, I can agree with all of that all the time.

[concerned]

I've seen that number that half of SLC doesn't pay property taxes and I'd love to see a source. That doesn't ring remotely true to me (although I'll happily admit I'm wrong) and I'd also love to see how that stacks against other similar sized cities. We aren't the first with public and religious buildings.

One other point: tax revenue from the proposed location can't be that high. If you are familiar with the area it is near a dump, a nature preserve and the airport on basically useless land currently held by Rio Tinto. It isn't developable in any revenue generating sort of way, nor will it ever be. Conversely the land in Draper has increased in value dramatically as part of the growing 'Silicon Slopes' corridor and limited remaining developable land. For the state that will increase tax revenue generating property pretty dramatically. Keep in mind, 70 years ago Bluffdale was essentially the middle of nowhere.

As for your statements about an inept and corrupt legislature, I can agree with all of that all the time.


the statement about tax exempt property is essentially correct. Between religious real estate, other charitable institutions, and government buildings of one kind or another (including schools) the % of tax exempt property in SLC is very high.

Your statement about the Rio Tinto property being undevelopable is wrong. Rio Tinto has plans to develop it, but in the future. Eventually the entire NW quadrant will fill in with development, in part because of its proximity to the airport and railroad lines. That is already happening.

The prison in being moved because Greg Hughes and others don't want it in Draper. They envision a high tech corridor, but I have never seen a study indicating that this land is all that is left--in other words, if a high tech corridor is developed, it will not create additional, incremental business and tax base, but just rearrange businesses that would have gone to Herriman, Lehi, American Fork, Eagle Mtn., etc. there is a lot of available land down there for devp.

[Diehard Ute]

I've seen that number that half of SLC doesn't pay property taxes and I'd love to see a source. That doesn't ring remotely true to me (although I'll happily admit I'm wrong) and I'd also love to see how that stacks against other similar sized cities. We aren't the first with public and religious buildings.

One other point: tax revenue from the proposed location can't be that high. If you are familiar with the area it is near a dump, a nature preserve and the airport on basically useless land currently held by Rio Tinto. It isn't developable in any revenue generating sort of way, nor will it ever be. Conversely the land in Draper has increased in value dramatically as part of the growing 'Silicon Slopes' corridor and limited remaining developable land. For the state that will increase tax revenue generating property pretty dramatically. Keep in mind, 70 years ago Bluffdale was essentially the middle of nowhere.

As for your statements about an inept and corrupt legislature, I can agree with all of that all the time.

You have to look at how much land is owned by religious or government entities and where that land is. The entire LDS church complex downtown is insanely expensive real estate. The state Capitol? Same. The U? (1,600 acres) same. Salt Palace? Abravenel Hall etc etc etc. (I think you'd be hard pressed to find a downtown metropolitan area in the US with such a large church complex in the heart of downtown)

Salt Lake is somewhat unique in its makeup too, as the daily population doubles (or more). While I certainly am not intimately involved in planning it's a unique situation.

The land they're wanting to put the prison on would be developed eventually. But your point really misses the boat I think. Now not only will that land not have any chance to generate revenue but it impacts the infrastructure costs to Salt Lake. Roads etc there aren't likely to be made State highways which means they'll be maintained at SLC's expense (one reason the state put the little sales tax increase in the deal, as they're trying to throw salt lake a bone because they know it's going to cost the city money)

And as LA said, is that what you want 10 miles outside of downtown and a couple miles from your international airport? Welcome to Salt Lake, don't mind the guard tower by the runway.

I'm a big hater of the not in my backyard folks. But I fail to see any logical reason, beyond personal monetary gain by those behind the decision making process, to move the prison.

The argument that rebuilding there would be more expensive holds little water after they chose a vastly more expensive build option to lower operating costs, which would be even lower at the present location.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

The very last page of this document details the land issue. (The entire document is interesting)

42% of the city is exempt. Another 9% is owned by SLC and thus exempt.

http://slcdocs.com/mayor/SLCResponsetoProposedSitesforPrisonRelocation.pdf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sullyute]

The only fair places for it are where it is or in Provo.

Are you running for office? ...as you just won my vote?

[Rocker Ute]

You have to look at how much land is owned by religious or government entities and where that land is. The entire LDS church complex downtown is insanely expensive real estate. The state Capitol? Same. The U? (1,600 acres) same. Salt Palace? Abravenel Hall etc etc etc. (I think you'd be hard pressed to find a downtown metropolitan area in the US with such a large church complex in the heart of downtown)

Salt Lake is somewhat unique in its makeup too, as the daily population doubles (or more). While I certainly am not intimately involved in planning it's a unique situation.

The land they're wanting to put the prison on would be developed eventually. But your point really misses the boat I think. Now not only will that land not have any chance to generate revenue but it impacts the infrastructure costs to Salt Lake. Roads etc there aren't likely to be made State highways which means they'll be maintained at SLC's expense (one reason the state put the little sales tax increase in the deal, as they're trying to throw salt lake a bone because they know it's going to cost the city money)

And as LA said, is that what you want 10 miles outside of downtown and a couple miles from your international airport? Welcome to Salt Lake, don't mind the guard tower by the runway.

I'm a big hater of the not in my backyard folks. But I fail to see any logical reason, beyond personal monetary gain by those behind the decision making process, to move the prison.

The argument that rebuilding there would be more expensive holds little water after they chose a vastly more expensive build option to lower operating costs, which would be even lower at the present location.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Edit: I didn't see your source until after I had typed this... <s>You still didn't cite a source for that 'half' figure nor do you note the revenue generated by places like the Salt Palace etc. And if you are thinking the LDS church doesn't pay property taxes on City Creek mall, you'll also be wrong. I tried to google anything like that and could find nothing, so any help would be appreciated versus eyeballed figures. </s> The land that Temple Square sits on is valuable, I'll admit, but you also have to offset that by revenue generated for the city around tourism surrounding there. Salt Lake City is 109 square miles or about 70,000 acres. Assuming there was substantial property tax revenue in that location, new 500 acre prison site would represent a 0.1% decrease in property tax revenue. If half of the city isn't paying property tax, that bumps it up to 0.2%.

The 700 acres the prison currently sits on that also doesn't generate any property tax revenue might be looked at this way. If it gets developed with just single family homes, and the 700 acres is divided into, on average, .2 acre lots and homes with a valuation of $300,000. That would be a low figure of $1000 in property taxes per lot. 3500 homes now paying $1000 in property taxes a year would be $3.5M/yr, not to mention the sale of the land, which if it sold for $50k (another low figure) per parcel would net $175M. Now if you get businesses and other types of development in the mix, those numbers go up.

I am also curious what is going to be developed next to a dump and airport... it isn't homes or businesses. For anyone curious I would suggest driving out there and checking out the site. I bet that most people won't even realize that it is part of SLC proper and you'll understand why this isn't really property that can or will be developed with any meaningful tax revenue base.

And as LA said, this will now be 10 miles out of town which is much further than the current prison is -- right now in the middle of businesses and homes. There are no projections for substantial development growth out towards the GSL in the next 100 years. Anyone who has been out by the lake understands why.

I listened to the Mayor of Draper on the radio the other day, his comments were interesting. He was excited about the prospect of being able to develop that area where the prison currently sits, but also not in a rush to get rid of the prison stating he'd be happy if it stayed, noting the prison isn't a bad neighbor like you'd think. The notion of some prison escape and takeover of the airport is pretty funny. As for 'views out the window' for flying into SLC... it isn't like it is exactly picturesque now. Out of one window you have an oil refinery, out of the other you have mine tailings, a gigantic smoke stake and industrial waste ponds.

I'm jaded enough, I just don't care who is making money on this, because someone will. I also understand that the prison is going to be built, either in place or in another location if not now, then in ten years and I also get that trying to build in place will likely be the most expensive option of all.

I can see the value in the land where the prison currently is, versus the proposed site and frankly, I would like to see that land developed. I'm biased because my business is in the tech sector and having places like Adobe, IM Flash and a billion start-ups have all helped my business. I'd like to see it grow and I'll pay more taxes in turn and it will likely bring new businesses into the area who want to capitalize on what is going on in that area.

[LA Ute]

In California we put prisons in the middle of nowhere. They actually provide economic support for the little towns nearest them.

[Rocker Ute]

The very last page of this document details the land issue. (The entire document is interesting)

42% of the city is exempt. Another 9% is owned by SLC and thus exempt.

http://slcdocs.com/mayor/SLCResponsetoProposedSitesforPrisonRelocation.pdf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah yes, Ralph Becker's famous tsunami document, but I won't let that affect my judgment. This document does further support my assertion that the land in that area is virtual undevelopable. It lies below a flood plain (which is why the current prison proposal notes the cost of building the land up for liquifaction stability and to get it out of the flood plain).

Oh and it smells like rotten eggs half the time, depending on the wind.

I am curious, considering the 42% of tax-exempt land (they don't blame the LDS church for this by the way, but federal and state land and open space) how that stacks up to cities of similar size. The addition of the prison will bump that up to 42.1%.

The infrastructure is a concern, I'm assuming that building that is part of the estimated cost of the prison?

[concerned]

In California we put prisons in the middle of nowhere. They actually provide economic support for the little towns nearest them.

Part of the equation here is close proximity to courts, hospitals, etc. The Church wants the SLC location because it has many missionaries and volunteers who service and minister the inmate population. And where would Spencer Hadley be today if the prison were in the middle of nowhere (tic)?

[Diehard Ute]

You still didn't cite a source for that 'half' figure nor do you note the revenue generated by places like the Salt Palace etc. And if you are thinking the LDS church doesn't pay property taxes on City Creek mall, you'll also be wrong. I tried to google anything like that and could find nothing, so any help would be appreciated versus eyeballed figures. The land that Temple Square sits on is valuable, I'll admit, but you also have to offset that by revenue generated for the city around tourism surrounding there. Salt Lake City is 109 square miles or about 70,000 acres. Assuming there was substantial property tax revenue in that location, new 500 acre prison site would represent a 0.1% decrease in property tax revenue. If half of the city isn't paying property tax, that bumps it up to 0.2%.

The 700 acres the prison currently sits on that also doesn't generate any property tax revenue might be looked at this way. If it gets developed with just single family homes, and the 700 acres is divided into, on average, .2 acre lots and homes with a valuation of $300,000. That would be a low figure of $1000 in property taxes per lot. 3500 homes now paying $1000 in property taxes a year would be $3.5M/yr, not to mention the sale of the land, which if it sold for $50k (another low figure) per parcel would net $175M. Now if you get businesses and other types of development in the mix, those numbers go up.

I am also curious what is going to be developed next to a dump and airport... it isn't homes or businesses. For anyone curious I would suggest driving out there and checking out the site. I bet that most people won't even realize that it is part of SLC proper and you'll understand why this isn't really property that can or will be developed with any meaningful tax revenue base.

And as LA said, this will now be 10 miles out of town which is much further than the current prison is -- right now in the middle of businesses and homes. There are no projections for substantial development growth out towards the GSL in the next 100 years. Anyone who has been out by the lake understands why.

I listened to the Mayor of Draper on the radio the other day, his comments were interesting. He was excited about the prospect of being able to develop that area where the prison currently sits, but also not in a rush to get rid of the prison stating he'd be happy if it stayed, noting the prison isn't a bad neighbor like you'd think. The notion of some prison escape and takeover of the airport is pretty funny. As for 'views out the window' for flying into SLC... it isn't like it is exactly picturesque now. Out of one window you have an oil refinery, out of the other you have mine tailings, a gigantic smoke stake and industrial waste ponds.

I'm jaded enough, I just don't care who is making money on this, because someone will. I also understand that the prison is going to be built, either in place or in another location if not now, then in ten years and I also get that trying to build in place will likely be the most expensive option of all.

I can see the value in the land where the prison currently is, versus the proposed site and frankly, I would like to see that land developed. I'm biased because my business is in the tech sector and having places like Adobe, IM Flash and a billion start-ups have all helped my business. I'd like to see it grow and I'll pay more taxes in turn and it will likely bring new businesses into the area who want to capitalize on what is going on in that area.

Follow the link in my last post. The very last page breaks down the property tax issues. It's from the city, so I guess if you want to say they're providing false numbers go ahead. I would then counter the state is likely providing false numbers with their statements about the current prison and costs.

(Interesting to note running sewage to the new site could run into the hundreds of millions per the same document I linked)

It's impossible to say rebuilding is the most costly option as it was never actually studied. They did preliminary work but cancelled the study as the legislature mandated the prison be moved before that process was even close to complete.

I couldn't care less about the risk, because I know what that really is.

My concern as someone who works in Salt Lake and understands budget issues because of that is cost.

Utah has a very bad habit of avoiding increases in taxes despite costs of services increasing. Instead Utah likes to try and stretch the dollar further.

Prime examples are the Utah Highway Patrol and SLCPD operating with the same staffing levels as 30-40 years ago despite population increases. Primary reason is budget.

The fact that the new prison will increase costs to SLC without increasing revenues is an issue. I would hope you understand that concern. (And reality is guards etc aren't going to move to SLC, they'll live where they currently do, another reason they wanted it in SLC)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

In California we put prisons in the middle of nowhere. They actually provide economic support for the little towns nearest them.


We already know what California does... ;)

Other proposed sites were out by Grantsville, Fairview and Eagle Mountain. Eagle Mountain area will be developed so in 20 years we'll be in the same problem as Bluffdale/Draper. It is reported that the SLC site found favor because of its current proximity to staff and a vast volunteer army supporting it. (I know of two guys in my ward who might wish the prison got moved far away).

I have no idea why I am fervently arguing this... I actually don't really care, other than I'd like to see the tech sector in that area further supported and I don't see any value in the land of the proposed site. None of it is good, but that of all the sites makes the most sense to me. I have no dog in this fight, I am just bugged by all the misinformation about it.

[Diehard Ute]

Ah yes, Ralph Becker's famous tsunami document, but I won't let that affect my judgment. This document does further support my assertion that the land in that area is virtual undevelopable. It lies below a flood plain (which is why the current prison proposal notes the cost of building the land up for liquifaction stability and to get it out of the flood plain).

Oh and it smells like rotten eggs half the time, depending on the wind.

I am curious, considering the 42% of tax-exempt land (they don't blame the LDS church for this by the way, but federal and state land and open space) how that stacks up to cities of similar size. The addition of the prison will bump that up to 42.1%.

The infrastructure is a concern, I'm assuming that building that is part of the estimated cost of the prison?

State and Federal land are 9% per the document. SLC land another 9%.

I don't know that the infrastructure costs have actually been hammered out. All of the costs listed by the state are from an outside consultant. The city has maintained the estimates may be excessively low to make the site appear better.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[concerned]

Follow the link in my last post. The very last page breaks down the property tax issues. It's from the city, so I guess if you want to say they're providing false numbers go ahead. I would then counter the state is likely providing false numbers with their statements about the current prison and costs.

(Interesting to note running sewage to the new site could run into the hundreds of millions per the same document I linked)

It's impossible to say rebuilding is the most costly option as it was never actually studied. They did preliminary work but cancelled the study as the legislature mandated the prison be moved before that process was even close to complete.

I couldn't care less about the risk, because I know what that really is.

My concern as someone who works in Salt Lake and understands budget issues because of that is cost.

Utah has a very bad habit of avoiding increases in taxes despite costs of services increasing. Instead Utah likes to try and stretch the dollar further.

Prime examples are the Utah Highway Patrol and SLCPD operating with the same staffing levels as 30-40 years ago despite population increases. Primary reason is budget.

The fact that the new prison will increase costs to SLC without increasing revenues is an issue. I would hope you understand that concern. (And reality is guards etc aren't going to move to SLC, they'll live where they currently do, another reason they wanted it in SLC)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


As you note, the State has a habit of imposing unfunded mandates on SLC (sort of ironic since the State complains about the feds doing the same thing. That is a big worry with the prison, because it is going to impose infrastructure and costs and other expenses.

[Diehard Ute]

As you note, the State has a habit of imposing unfunded mandates on SLC (sort of ironic since the State complains about the feds doing the same thing. That is a big worry with the prison, because it is going to impose infrastructure and costs and other expenses.

Very much so.

For example, per the state, about 25% of the SLC water system budget comes from property tax. The prison won't be paying property tax, but will require water for over 4,000 people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

Follow the link in my last post. The very last page breaks down the property tax issues. It's from the city, so I guess if you want to say they're providing false numbers go ahead. I would then counter the state is likely providing false numbers with their statements about the current prison and costs.

(Interesting to note running sewage to the new site could run into the hundreds of millions per the same document I linked)

It's impossible to say rebuilding is the most costly option as it was never actually studied. They did preliminary work but cancelled the study as the legislature mandated the prison be moved before that process was even close to complete.

I couldn't care less about the risk, because I know what that really is.

My concern as someone who works in Salt Lake and understands budget issues because of that is cost.

Utah has a very bad habit of avoiding increases in taxes despite costs of services increasing. Instead Utah likes to try and stretch the dollar further.

Prime examples are the Utah Highway Patrol and SLCPD operating with the same staffing levels as 30-40 years ago despite population increases. Primary reason is budget.

The fact that the new prison will increase costs to SLC without increasing revenues is an issue. I would hope you understand that concern. (And reality is guards etc aren't going to move to SLC, they'll live where they currently do, another reason they wanted it in SLC)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't necessarily disagree with any of those points, but don't see how they invalidate mine.

Being somewhat familiar with building costs, I know that building in place is always much more expensive than building from scratch, mostly because it is a logistical and technical nightmare. The only reasons to consider doing it is limited space, historical or aesthetic preservation. But still, is it a safe estimate to say that it would at least cost the same to build in place as it would to relocate? And if so, which land is more valuable?

I think ultimately the answer from the city and its citizens is the state supports the infrastructure cost increases, as this is a state facility.

Some other interesting stats is it would cost the state ~$240M over the next 20 years to repair and maintain the current prison. Economic output from development of that area over the same time is estimated at near $2B. http://www.utah.gov/pmn/files/89997.pdf

It's complex. Maybe we can just renovate Salt Aire into a prison.

There are a lot of moving parts here.

[Diehard Ute]

I don't necessarily disagree with any of those points, but don't see how they invalidate mine.

Being somewhat familiar with building costs, I know that building in place is always much more expensive than building from scratch, mostly because it is a logistical and technical nightmare. The only reasons to consider doing it is limited space, historical or aesthetic preservation. But still, is it a safe estimate to say that it would at least cost the same to build in place as it would to relocate? And if so, which land is more valuable?

I think ultimately the answer from the city and its citizens is the state supports the infrastructure cost increases, as this is a state facility.

Some other interesting stats is it would cost the state ~$240M over the next 20 years to repair and maintain the current prison. Economic output from development of that area over the same time is estimated at near $2B. http://www.utah.gov/pmn/files/89997.pdf

It's complex. Maybe we can just renovate Salt Aire into a prison.

There are a lot of moving parts here.

And at least one legislator has said the economic output development is vastly exaggerated. So who knows.

And while some of the initial infrastructure costs will be paid by the state. They will not be responsible for the maintenance costs.

I think you're far too trusting of the state legislature if you think they're planning on footing this entire bill.

The legislature has shown time and time again they're willing to override anything SLC does if they don't like it. This won't be any different. (They've passed new bills to nullify SLC ordinances they didn't like)

As for rebuilding, sure it's needed. However I maintain it could have been done on the current site, but that desire was never there due to obvious reasons.

On a side note I'd love to see how the committee was picked. Seems rather funny it was made almost entirely of legislators whose communities had no chance of being picked (the only two who did got their site yanked immediately). (And it's funny at least two admitted they picked SLC months ago, long before the process was extended)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

San Diego and Seattle have done this well. Fly into San Diego, and you immediately want to live there. Fly into Seattle, and you see Boeing on the way to town (or is it Lockheed?).

The SLC airport approach has a nice view out one side. Would have been even better if all those darn Mormons hadn't fled the city for their Bluffdale utopias (and now they want to dump their trash in SLC). The last thing Utah needs is more people/business/soccer stadia fleeing SLC. It's fools gold to grow the suburbs at the expense of the capital. That's how you end up looking like the midwest.

How bout we do a swap? Salt Lake builds the prison where the refinery is, and we move the refinery to where the prison is?

Excellent point.

See the state legislature refusing to commit to the fair park and thus costing SLC the new minor league soccer stadium, sending it to WVC instead.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

And at least one legislator has said the economic output development is vastly exaggerated. So who knows.

And while some of the initial infrastructure costs will be paid by the state. They will not be responsible for the maintenance costs.

I think you're far too trusting of the state legislature if you think they're planning on footing this entire bill.

The legislature has shown time and time again they're willing to override anything SLC does if they don't like it. This won't be any different. (They've passed new bills to nullify SLC ordinances they didn't like)

As for rebuilding, sure it's needed. However I maintain it could have been done on the current site, but that desire was never there due to obvious reasons.

On a side note I'd love to see how the committee was picked. Seems rather funny it was made almost entirely of legislators whose communities had no chance of being picked (the only two who did got their site yanked immediately). (And it's funny at least two admitted they picked SLC months ago, long before the process was extended)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You make a lot of assumptions about me... that is okay. I don't trust the state legislature for anything except being corrupt.

$2B over 20 years seems low to me actually. But if you get three more companies like eBay, Adobe, IM Flash etc into or around that location it is going to be a big big winner for the community. Simply building out single-family homes on the location justifies the decision from an economic standpoint.

[Diehard Ute]

You make a lot of assumptions about me... that is okay. I don't trust the state legislature for anything except being corrupt.

$2B over 20 years seems low to me actually. But if you get three more companies like eBay, Adobe, IM Flash etc into or around that location it is going to be a big big winner for the community. Simply building out single-family homes on the location justifies the decision from an economic standpoint.

Maybe. How long did Flash sit almost empty? How much does the state give these companies in tax breaks to come?

It's just not as simple as if you clear it they will build


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

We already know what California does... ;)

Yes, Cali is a political basket case now, but there are some things we do very well. One of them is recognize that tourism is a huge part of the economy and you don't put the stat prison where people can see it as they fly into SFO or LAX or SAN. It's nuts to do that.

[Rocker Ute]

Maybe. How long did Flash sit almost empty? How much does the state give these companies in tax breaks to come?

It's just not as simple as if you clear it they will build


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Snort... okay. There is no reasoning at this point. There of course is no sure bet when it comes to development, but there is reason that money grubbing and corrupt politicians are drooling over this land and it isn't their affinity to open space or their deep desire to put it to Ralph Becker.

[Rocker Ute]

Yes, Cali is a political basket case now, but there are some things we do very well. One of them is recognize that tourism is a huge part of the economy and you don't put the stat prison where people can see it as they fly into SFO or LAX or SAN. It's nuts to do that.

What if the prison looks like this:

1535

or this?


1536


Of course imagine those adjacent to a dump and industrial park and seagulls and stuff flying around.

This is the current view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7836959,-112.0362232,3a,75y,319.65h,101.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_TvHeuOghN9fo4i9izjEGw!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656

;)

Alright, I'm done with this argument. Back to apathy.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm certain the land is valuable, but I don't think it's fair to move the prison. I don't really care if Bluffdale misses out on the revenue, and I definitely don't care if the legislators miss their payday.

I guess I look at it this way: I care about the economic viability of the state, and that is why I even remotely care about this. We were fortunate to weather the Great Recession fairly well and a lot of that had to do with sustained economic growth and economic diversity. Capitalizing on building the tech sector more in Utah is a smart move, and that is what this should help to do. Tech unemployment in SLC right now is essential 0%, that means if you want a job in the tech sector, you've got a job. The point of the mountain area has found success in attracting big tech firms because of the affordability of the land, favorable economic climate and a highly educated population with feeder markets of talent from Utah and BYU. Good quality jobs and lots of them have come as a result of that. I personally see another wave of economic problems coming if not in the next few years in at least a decade and whatever we can do to hedge our bets against that as a community I am for.

[Rocker Ute]

I will only change my mind if it looks like this:

1537

Seagulls or not, the prison will effect home values on the west side, and I'm not in favor of robbing the poor to feed the rich any more than we already do.

There is not a home within 8 miles of that location. If industrial waste, mine tailings, the city dump and Rio Tinto weren't in between the new prison site and West Valley and Magna, it might move the needle ever slightly.

[LA Ute]

It just seems odd to me. A prison is a prison, even if it looks nice.

[Diehard Ute]

It just seems odd to me. A prison is a prison, even if it looks nice.

Apparently you should care more about tech money flooding into draper ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mpfunk]

Why are people in this thread talking about soccer stadiums not being in a city as a bad thing? A soccer stadium in your city is one of the worst things that you can have, it means that people are playing soccer there. I'm ashamed that I grew up in a city that now has a soccer stadium.

[chrisrenrut]

Why are people in this thread talking about soccer stadiums not being in a city as a bad thing? A soccer stadium in your city is one of the worst things that you can have, it means that people are playing soccer there. I'm ashamed that I grew up in a city that now has a soccer stadium.

Fortunately SLC was smart enough to ship it's hockey arena to a west-side city, where it closer to the class of people that normally attend hockey games.

[Rocker Ute]

It doesn't matter. Just the act of dumping something undesirable over on the west side perpetuates attitudes that keep those neighborhoods down.

I don't care about economic growth as much as you do, but all the great things you mention about Bluffdale can be achieved elsewhere. That's not the only place in the valley that can house a new tech firm.

There's something kind of funny about that statement about the west side... East side pity for the west side died in the late 80s. Given the massive growth on the west side I don't know that people feel like they are being 'kept down'.

You've all convinced me, keeping the prison in the middle of the community in the center of massive economic growth vs on the outskirts of town on virtually unusable land is the right thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

There's something kind of funny about that statement about the west side... East side pity for the west side died in the late 80s. Given the massive growth on the west side I don't know that people feel like they are being 'kept down'.

You've all convinced me, keeping the prison in the middle of the community in the center of massive economic growth vs on the outskirts of town on virtually unusable land is the right thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A 10 minute drive from downtown really isn't the outskirts of town.

It's obvious your stance is as long as someone makes money it's ok. Many of us see issues with that philosophy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Why not someplace in Kane County? Juab County?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[chrisrenrut]

I'm with Rocker Ute on this. Something needs to be done with the prison that will cost a lot of money. If it is ever going to be moved off the current spot which on increasingly valuable property, now is the time to do it.

I don't have a problem with where it is going. I currently work in the "International Center" west of the airport. There are a bunch of business buildings out there, some with stable usage, but many that turn over every 2 or 3 years. We can't get UTA to run more bus routes out there, even from the airport Trax line. We couldn't get a shuttle from the airport Trax line to be economically viable. There is just not going to be a big demand for the land west of 5600 West along I-80 any time soon. The land in Bluffdale where the prison currently is will be in big demand the instant it is available.

[Diehard Ute]

Why not someplace in Kane County? Juab County?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

The big issue there is transportation to courts and hospitals as well as lack of staff (most of the guards aren't moving out there, the state doesn't pay them enough)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rocker Ute]

A 10 minute drive from downtown really isn't the outskirts of town.

It's obvious your stance is as long as someone makes money it's ok. Many of us see issues with that philosophy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That isn't my stance at all but that seems to be your MO.

Here is my stance:

1. Whether today or in a few years the prison is going to need to be rebuilt, so that money is essentially spent.

2. The prison needs to be in a good location for transportation and services as you noted.

3. The current prison currently sits on prime real estate, particularly good for future economic growth in an area becoming known worldwide for tech. The value of that land and in that corridor would be irresponsible to ignore and it should be developed to support our economy.

4. Of the proposed locations only two were really viable, the SLC location and Eagle Mountain. Of those two, Eagle Mountain is the most likely to grow into wherever the prison is located and we'll be in the same mess in the future.

5. The SLC location is on land that is viable for little else and meets the transportation and support criteria, so why not.

That's it, a change has to be made so make the right change.

Oh and by the way, 10 minutes out of downtown is the very definition of 'outskirts'.

"Outlying or bordering areas, districts, etc, as of a city"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Why not Antelope Island? Utah could have its own mini-Alcatraz.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

Why not Antelope Island? Utah could have its own mini-Alcatraz.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Apparently that was looked at at some point back in the 50's when it was moved from....Salt Lake.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

Apparently that was looked at at some point back in the 50's when it was moved from....Salt Lake.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The old State prison was located where Sugarhouse Park is now. Highland High School too. I remember as a very small child going with my parents to the prison demolition site to collect sandstone blocks that were available free to the public. Those were later used to build a retaining wall in our backyard.

It is kind of funny to think of a state prison situated on about 17th East and 21st South, but there is a lesson in that. It is a bad idea to build a prison in the path of a growing residential and commercial population. Utah has already done that twice. Why do it again? But that is just me, a former (and perhaps future) Salt Laker, talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Diehard Ute]

The old State prison was located where Sugarhouse Park is now. Highland High School too. I remember as a very small child going with my parents to the prison demolition site to collect sandstone blocks that were available free to the public. Those were later used to build a retaining wall in our backyard.

It is kind of funny to think of a state prison situated on about 17th East and 21st South, but there is a lesson in that. It is a bad idea to build a prison in the path of a growing residential and commercial population. Utah has already done that twice. Why do it again? But that is just me, a former (and perhaps future) Salt Laker, talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There was supposed to be a guard tower left at the park as a monument to the site. Some kids with dynamite blew it up. Now all that's left is a hard to find plaque built from the blocks.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[concerned]

6 years ago, the church wanted to put residential subdivisions on the very land where the prison is now post. They couldn't get zoning approval from Salt Lake City, because the land is owned industrial. So they sold their land to Rio Tinto. It isn't fair to say that land is not available.l

[#1 Utefan]

The old State prison was located where Sugarhouse Park is now. Highland High School too. I remember as a very small child going with my parents to the prison demolition site to collect sandstone blocks that were available free to the public. Those were later used to build a retaining wall in our backyard.

It is kind of funny to think of a state prison situated on about 17th East and 21st South, but there is a lesson in that. It is a bad idea to build a prison in the path of a growing residential and commercial population. Utah has already done that twice. Why do it again? But that is just me, a former (and perhaps future) Salt Laker, talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm with you LA. Why rebuild so close to downtown with the,area growing so rapidly. I personally thought they'd wise up this time and put it somewhere between Grantsville and Dugway. Out somewhere in the middle of the west desert made the most sense to account for future growth.

[U-Ute]

The value of that land and in that corridor would be irresponsible to ignore and it should be developed to support our economy.

I believe the issue is this: in this deal there are winners and losers. The (financial) winners are the ones making the decisions and the losers don't have a voice in the decision

[UtahsMrSports]

I spent three weeks in the MTC. Felt like prison. Maybe they could just move it nearby?

[DrumNFeather]

I spent three weeks in the MTC. Felt like prison. Maybe they could just move it nearby?

"And I'm bad comedian UtahMrSports and I have cable"


1540

[Two Utes]

I will only change my mind if it looks like this:

1537

Seagulls or not, the prison will effect home values on the west side, and I'm not in favor of robbing the poor to feed the rich any more than we already do.


I didn't know the prison was affecting the home values in Bluffdale and Draper. And planes never fly over the international center or the dump. They come in and either go over the great Salt Lake to the North or over the Oquirrs to the south. Yeah, flying in, you see the refineries. But that's been the case since I've been alive. You're not even going to notice the prison. Ironically, the current flight paths from the south go right over the prison.

The only reasonable argument one could make for it being a bad spot, is that as Salt Lake grows, that wasteland on the west side out by the Great Salt Lake will fill in with residences. How has that worked for Magna? It could happen, but I am skeptical.

[Rocker Ute]

The old State prison was located where Sugarhouse Park is now. Highland High School too. I remember as a very small child going with my parents to the prison demolition site to collect sandstone blocks that were available free to the public. Those were later used to build a retaining wall in our backyard.

It is kind of funny to think of a state prison situated on about 17th East and 21st South, but there is a lesson in that. It is a bad idea to build a prison in the path of a growing residential and commercial population. Utah has already done that twice. Why do it again? But that is just me, a former (and perhaps future) Salt Laker, talking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think this land is remotely in the path of growing residential or commercial population. I think if you go and stand out on this land you'll see why it is being considered, and why it isn't a threat to be developed like Bluffdale or even Sugarhouse. (On a side note my mom told me about when they first moved out to about 40th South... they felt like they were in the boondocks. Obviously that isn't the case today).

There is a miserable bike ride I do occasionally that goes along the frontage road along 201 and you can take it all the way out to the GSL and into Tooele County, through Stockton to Eagle Mountain and then along the freeway corridor and back to SLC. The ride out to Tooele County goes somewhat past here. The land is laced with salt and little can grow there. As mentioned it is on the flood plain, so whatever site will need to be built up. There is a 50-50 chance you have lake stink and the land is marshy, lots of bugs. We will be at the height of desperation if any reasonable sort of development happens there in the next 50-100 years. Warehouses maybe, but no real commercial or residential building.

I am fascinated to hear that the church considered developing out there unless they were planning on doing a Nauvoo recreation or something.

Anyway, who knows why I am so passionate about this, I'm really not. I just don't think it is the horrible idea it is being portrayed to be for the reasons I've cited too many times here.

[LA Ute]

I don't think this land is remotely in the path of growing residential or commercial population. I think if you go and stand out on this land you'll see why it is being considered, and why it isn't a threat to be developed like Bluffdale or even Sugarhouse. (On a side note my mom told me about when they first moved out to about 40th South... they felt like they were in the boondocks. Obviously that isn't the case today).

There is a miserable bike ride I do occasionally that goes along the frontage road along 201 and you can take it all the way out to the GSL and into Tooele County, through Stockton to Eagle Mountain and then along the freeway corridor and back to SLC. The ride out to Tooele County goes somewhat past here. The land is laced with salt and little can grow there. As mentioned it is on the flood plain, so whatever site will need to be built up. There is a 50-50 chance you have lake stink and the land is marshy, lots of bugs. We will be at the height of desperation if any reasonable sort of development happens there in the next 50-100 years. Warehouses maybe, but no real commercial or residential building.

I am fascinated to hear that the church considered developing out there unless they were planning on doing a Nauvoo recreation or something.

Anyway, who knows why I am so passionate about this, I'm really not. I just don't think it is the horrible idea it is being portrayed to be for the reasons I've cited too many times here.

Well, I admit I don't know what I am talking about because I don't even live in SLC and haven't for years. I just thought the proposal looked odd. I have learned a lot in this thread.

[LA Ute]

Consultant group hired for state prison has past of corruption, fraud (http://kutv.com/news/local/consultant-group-hired-for-state-prison-has-past-of-corruption-fraud)
:snack:

[Diehard Ute]

Today the Utah State Legislature started the process to repeal the sales tax increase authorization they gave SLC as part of forcing the prison on them.

"Here's your reward....psych!"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk