An officer down in my neighborhood

[Rocker Ute]

I'm shocked and incredibly sad to hear of an officer being fatally shot in my neighborhood today. One of my closest friends and also my cousin are LEOs and this is my worst nightmare for them. Through them I've gotten to know others in law enforcement and I admire all that they do and wonder how they even deal with the awful stuff they deal with every day. I feel bad for the wife and three children this man left behind. Sickening.

And not to sound like that sort of guy, but I never expected something like this to happen in my neighborhood. My community is roiling right now in disbelief.

Be safe out there Diehard, I'm sorry for the loss of another brother out there. Remember that while there is a vocal minority shouting about the job you and your contemporaries do, the majority of us stand behind you.

[LA Ute]

Amen.


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[Diehard Ute]

I know the officer who was wounded. He worked for our agency for 25 years before going to Unified. I likely met Officer Barney at some point but I can't say for sure.

We're out working tonight as always. Some of our detectives are still working the investigation.

We appreciate the support. When this happens the color of our uniform no longer matters


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[UtahsMrSports]

I know the officer who was wounded. He worked for our agency for 25 years before going to Unified. I likely met Officer Barney at some point but I can't say for sure.

We're out working tonight as always. Some of our detectives are still working the investigation.

We appreciate the support. When this happens the color of our uniform no longer matters


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Thanks for all you do, my friend.

[Diehard Ute]

For anyone wanting to pay their respects, a candlelight vigil will be held tonight, 01/20 at 6PM at the Holladay City Office.

Funeral is Monday January 25th at 11:00 at the Maverik Center. The funeral procession will go through Holladay.


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[Rocker Ute]

For anyone wanting to pay their respects, a candlelight vigil will be held tonight, 01/20 at 6PM at the Holladay City Office.

Funeral is Monday January 25th at 11:00 at the Maverik Center. The funeral procession will go through Holladay.


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Olympus High School and the Holladay City building are lined with flags today.

[NorthwestUteFan]

This is terrible. WTF is wrong with people? So sorry to hear this happened.

Be safe out there, Diehard.

[Diehard Ute]

This is terrible. WTF is wrong with people? So sorry to hear this happened.

Be safe out there, Diehard.

Thanks.

We wonder the same thing.

Then we go read Utah Against Police Brutality's Facebook page and just shake our heads.




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[UtahsMrSports]

Thanks.

We wonder the same thing.

Then we go read Utah Against Police Brutality's Facebook page and just shake our heads.




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I just spent two minutes going through their page. What a disgrace. Cut from the same cloth as the westboro folks.

[LA Ute]

I read that the officer who was killed didn´t even unholster his gun. He was basically flat-out murdered.

[Diehard Ute]

I read that the officer who was killed didn´t even unholster his gun. He was basically flat-out murdered.

Yes. From all I know there's no doubt it was cold blooded murder.


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[Diehard Ute]

I should also add there have been threats made by the family of the shooter towards Officer Richey and other officers.


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[Diehard Ute]

For anyone interested in attending any of the Funeral or procession on Monday here are the details.

Funeral is at 11 at the Maverik center and it is open to the public. Expect 4,000+ police officers.

The funeral will likely last about 90 minutes. A cordon of honor will be formed outside by all the officers present and Officer Barney's casket will be taken to the hearse.

The procession will then leave. 200 or so police motorcycles will lead the way followed by several hundred police cars. The route will be onto I-215 NB to SR201 EB, then to I-80 EB continuing onto I-215 SB until 3900 S. At 3900 S it will exit the freeway and go west until 2300 E where it will turn south until getting back on I-215 at 6200 South. It will then back south to Orem.




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[Diehard Ute]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KFdFRqNiuFw

In law enforcement the most emotional part of a funeral is the last call over the radio.

This is the last call for Officer Doug Barney 96K.


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[chrisrenrut]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/KFdFRqNiuFw

In law enforcement the most emotional part of a funeral is the last call over the radio.

This is the last call for Officer Doug Barney 96K.


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Wow, hard not to get emotional listening to that.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Seeing all of the funeral coverage has been both heart breaking and beautiful at the same time. My grandpa was a Sergeant for SLPD and worked for the force in some capacity for about 45 years. At one point he created the Chaplain program and worked on that part time, long after his retirement. He had heart breaking stories of visiting families of victims and fallen officers alike, delivering bad news. Despite all of that, I was still surprised to see the police presence at his funeral service when he passed away eight years ago. From the chapel to the cemetery, it brought a level of honor to the service that I will always appreciate.

Much appreciation to all those that serve and protect.

[Rocker Ute]

Uhg... Who wants to repost in this thread, but it is heartbreaking the news in Dallas... Now 5 fallen officers and 11 shot.

What is this world coming to? I know that is a question asked by every generation but is this really what we want? Where the good guys have become bag guys and targets?

I hope our nation pulls together instead of falling apart. People have a right to protest but what would it do to heal both sides if instead of taking to the streets right now America said, "We love and respect the good cops so we are taking our protest online to protect them from being targeted. Get rid of corrupt and trigger happy cops, but we as a nation stand as one together and for the rule of law..."

I am very fearful of copycat attacks. Diehard and all of my other LEO friends, please stay safe out there. My heart breaks for all of you and your fallen brothers.


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[LA Ute]

Amen, Rocker.

[LA Ute]

Tweet of the year:

https://mobile.twitter.com/charlie_simpson/status/751251725625991168

[Ma'ake]

We're a big nation, with a lot of deep seated problems. Watching the news on the guy killed by police in Baton Rouge, I thought "I know these people. They're the same folks who are in my wife's neighborhood back in Kentucky".

The dysfunction in the ghettos is foreign to most of us. I was blown away when I first encountered it, 28 years ago. In some ways fascinating ways, slavery is still with us.

Brandon Cox is from Pasadena. Dominique Hatfield is from Crenshaw. Same big city. Completely different universes.

Canada had it right. They saw what was happening in our big cities, and decided to prevent the formation of ghettoes. Toronto is far less violent than most US cities, including SLC (I believe).

Into this mix we have super easy access to all kinds of guns, and throw in high quality military training, a byproduct of multiple wars in insanely dysfunctional nations, and this kind of event shouldn't be surprising.

[Rocker Ute]

The double standard is real and needs to be fixed. Black people shouldn't have to live in fear. All minorities shouldn't have to worry about whether they are going to be harassed. My bro-in-law is Puerto Rican and he has an old beat up pickup truck he uses once in a while. He says almost invariably when he drives the truck he'll get pulled over, it never happens when he is in his suit going to work in his Toyota.

But isn't it an interesting irony that while some in law enforcement profile minorities because of some past bad experience some of the public is now turning around and profiling all cops because of these other bad experiences?

I'm not dismissing anything, it is just an interesting display of human nature.

I am bothered to hear President Obama using this as an opportunity for gun control. Let's work to heal and unify the country and then fix the problems with guns but let's keep politics out of it for just one minute and stand together.


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[Rocker Ute]

I'll try to shut up about this but as I think about things a couple of truths:

There is too much police violence, although I'm sympathetic to the situations they are put in that I believe contributes to this. Specifically any situation that they go into is life threatening. Pulling over someone with a tail light out can end your life. So being in hat situation of course you are keyed up.

I believe that most officers work hard to do everything they can to never have to take a human life, yet the are prepared and trained to do what's necessary and the end of the day they just want to go home alive.

So if those are the three elements: 1. most officers don't want to kill anyone, 2. Their jobs are highly and insanely stressful and dangerous, 3. They'll do what any human would do and will act to preserve their own lives... How do we teach and train them in such a way as to provide them with the best protection so they feel safe and also work to preserve human life?

There isn't an easy answer to that but I believe there are solutions. This is at least what we need to do to approach the first problem.


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[Two Utes]

I'll try to shut up about this but as I think about things a couple of truths:

There is too much police violence, although I'm sympathetic to the situations they are put in that I believe contributes to this. Specifically any situation that they go into is life threatening. Pulling over someone with a tail light out can end your life. So being in hat situation of course you are keyed up.

I believe that most officers work hard to do everything they can to never have to take a human life, yet the are prepared and trained to do what's necessary and the end of the day they just want to go home alive.

So if those are the three elements: 1. most officers don't want to kill anyone, 2. Their jobs are highly and insanely stressful and dangerous, 3. They'll do what any human would do and will act to preserve their own lives... How do we teach and train them in such a way as to provide them with the best protection so they feel safe and also work to preserve human life?

There isn't an easy answer to that but I believe there are solutions. This is at least what we need to do to approach the first problem.


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And my thoughts are Police officers have guns. If you attack a police officer with a shovel he is going to shoot you. If you resist arrest and he feels threatened, there is good chance he is going to shoot you. If you refuse to cooperate and he feels threatened, he might shoot you. So, do you what normal humans do when dealing with cops--cooperate. Then, if they are being difficult, after you roll up the window, call them mother fuckers under your breath. Or, if they arrest you (even if you think wrongfully), cooperate and live to fight another day.

[Two Utes]

The double standard is real and needs to be fixed. Black people shouldn't have to live in fear. All minorities shouldn't have to worry about whether they are going to be harassed. My bro-in-law is Puerto Rican and he has an old beat up pickup truck he uses once in a while. He says almost invariably when he drives the truck he'll get pulled over, it never happens when he is in his suit going to work in his Toyota.

But isn't it an interesting irony that while some in law enforcement profile minorities because of some past bad experience some of the public is now turning around and profiling all cops because of these other bad experiences?

I'm not dismissing anything, it is just an interesting display of human nature.

I am bothered to hear President Obama using this as an opportunity for gun control. Let's work to heal and unify the country and then fix the problems with guns but let's keep politics out of it for just one minute and stand together.


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And I can't believe Obama still has a pretty high approval rating.

[UtahsMrSports]

And my thoughts are Police officers have guns. If you attack a police officer with a shovel he is going to shoot you. If you resist arrest and he feels threatened, there is good chance he is going to shoot you. If you refuse to cooperate and he feels threatened, he might shoot you. So, do you what normal humans do when dealing with cops--cooperate. Then, if they are being difficult, after you roll up the window, call them mother fuckers under your breath. Or, if they arrest you (even if you think wrongfully), cooperate and live to fight another day.

I saw multiple people on twitter last night saying that anyone who says stuff like this doesn't have a voice in this discussion because...........#privilege. That attitude might be the most useless and strange contribution to this discussion Ive seen. (For Clarity...........their attitude, not yours Two Utes, as I agree with you.)

[Diehard Ute]

In the end it's better if I just don't say anything at all.

[Two Utes]

I saw multiple people on twitter last night saying that anyone who says stuff like this doesn't have a voice in this discussion because...........#privilege. That attitude might be the most useless and strange contribution to this discussion Ive seen. (For Clarity...........their attitude, not yours Two Utes, as I agree with you.)

I get it that I don't get pulled over like people of color do. I also don't get pulled over as much as poor white people because my registration is up to date and I regularly fix any problems with my car that might cause a cop to pull me over (partly because I have enough money to do that and partly because I pay attention to stuff that needs to be done).

So what? Are you entitled to resist arrest because you get pulled over more than rich people? (rich black people also tend to do fairly well in the justice system)

It's a problem that minorities get pulled over more. But that still doesn't give them a right to resist arrest.

[Rocker Ute]

In the end it's better if I just don't say anything at all.


FWIW I am behind you and grateful you go out each day. I am afraid for you and other people I know and love in your profession now more than ever. Please be safe and remember there are millions and millions of people behind you and grateful for your service.

[Sullyute]

In the end it's better if I just don't say anything at all.

Diehard, i would love to hear your perspective on things. do you mind sending me a pm or putting it in another forum? I also understand if you don't becuase of your occupation.

[concerned]

I get it that I don't get pulled over like people of color do. I also don't get pulled over as much as poor white people because my registration is up to date and I regularly fix any problems with my car that might cause a cop to pull me over (partly because I have enough money to do that and partly because I pay attention to stuff that needs to be done).

So what? Are you entitled to resist arrest because you get pulled over more than rich people? (rich black people also tend to do fairly well in the justice system)

It's a problem that minorities get pulled over more. But that still doesn't give them a right to resist arrest.

Well, I didn't see anything in the Minnesota video to suggest that the passenger was resisting arrest or going for a gun (after he supposedly told the officer he had one per protocol), although the video only captures the aftermath. It is unclear to me why the officer had his gun drawn or why he told the passenger to put his hands in the air for a broken tail light. I suspect, but dont know, that the officer panicked when the passenger told him he had a gun and a permit.

I don't think any of us can appreciate what it means to an African American and be pulled over because of skin color. My daughter has a very close friend who wants to be a doctor with a 4.0 gpa in the West IB. Her parents are both on the faculty at the U. They were coming back from Moab up highway 6 a couple of weeks ago. The daughter was driving. The highway patrol pulled her over. When he approached the car and realized that there was a family inside, he waved them off and told them to never mind. They knew they were pulled over because the driver was African American. The daughter has expressed to my daughter an extreme sense of violation, and says her parents feels the same way, at least as strongly. Knowing them, I am sure that is true.

That doesn't happen to us.


But you are right about one thing--I heard Don Lemon say on CNN the other night that he always always always does exactly what the police say, because he cant take any risk as an AA.
.

[Two Utes]

Well, I didn't see anything in the Minnesota video to suggest that the passenger was resisting arrest or going for a gun (after he supposedly told the officer he had one per protocol), although the video only captures the aftermath. It is unclear to me why the officer had his gun drawn or why he told the passenger to put his hands in the air for a broken tail light. I suspect, but dont know, that the officer panicked when the passenger told him he had a gun and a permit.

I don't think any of us can appreciate what it means to an African American and be pulled over because of skin color. My daughter has a very close friend who wants to be a doctor with a 4.0 gpa in the West IB. Her parents are both on the faculty at the U. They were coming back from Moab up highway 6 a couple of weeks ago. The daughter was driving. The highway patrol pulled her over. When he approached the car and realized that there was a family inside, he waved them off and told them to never mind. They knew they were pulled over because the driver was African American. The daughter has expressed to my daughter an extreme sense of violation, and says her parents feels the same way, at least as strongly. Knowing them, I am sure that is true.

That doesn't happen to us.

.

I think I made it pretty clear in my post that I get that they get pulled over more. I've witnessed cars on Highway 6 and on I 80 in between Nephi and and Fillmore being pulled over and the passengers being people of color (the % of the number of cars going through those sections of road whose drivers are black has to be 2% at best, yet, in my limited time driving through those sections of road, I've seen the pull overs). It's disgusting. It's happening. We agree. That still doesn't give anybody right to resist arrest.

And I should have been more clear. Sure there are instances where there is no resistance and people get shot. But probably 75% of these issues are happening when there is some sort of fleeing or resisting arrest. Shooting at someone fleeing isn't justifiable, but it happens. And I'm not even saying that the police are right in some or most of these instances.

I'm just saying Cops have guns. If you attack them they WILL shoot you. If you resist arrest in any way, they MAY shoot you. And if you give them lip and refuse to cooperate they just MIGHT shoot you. So, don't do it.

Are we even disagreeing here? And no kidding it isn't happening to me. I think I made that clear.

[concerned]

I think I made it pretty clear in my post that I get that they get pulled over more. I've witnessed cars on Highway 6 and on I 80 in between Nephi and and Fillmore being pulled over and the passengers being people of color (the % of the number of cars going through those sections of road whose drivers are black has to be 2% at best, yet, in my limited time driving through those sections of road, I've seen the pull overs). It's disgusting. It's happening. We agree. That still doesn't give anybody right to resist arrest.

And I should have been more clear. Sure there are instances where there is no resistance and people get shot. But probably 75% of these issues are happening when there is some sort of fleeing or resisting arrest. Shooting at someone fleeing isn't justifiable, but it happens. And I'm not even saying that the police are right in some or most of these instances.

I'm just saying Cops have guns. If you attack them they WILL shoot you. If you resist arrest in any way, they MAY shoot you. And if you give them lip and refuse to cooperate they just MIGHT shoot you. So, don't do it.

Are we even disagreeing here? And no kidding it isn't happening to me. I think I made that clear.

We are not disagreeing except to the extent that you suggest that "it happens to whites too" etc., but not me because I don't have a broken tail light and have insurance. This family I mentioned didn't have a broken tail light either and I assume their registration is current; my only point is that even if whites get pulled over, the sense of violation is not necessarily the same.

[Two Utes]

We are not disagreeing except to the extent that you suggest that "it happens to whites too" etc., but not me because I don't have a broken tail light and have insurance. This family I mentioned didn't have a broken tail light either and I assume their registration is current; my only point is that even if whites get pulled over, the sense of violation is not necessarily the same.

it does happen to poor people a lot more than wealthier people. But I could have been clearer.

[Rocker Ute]

I think I made it pretty clear in my post that I get that they get pulled over more. I've witnessed cars on Highway 6 and on I 80 in between Nephi and and Fillmore being pulled over and the passengers being people of color (the % of the number of cars going through those sections of road whose drivers are black has to be 2% at best, yet, in my limited time driving through those sections of road, I've seen the pull overs). It's disgusting. It's happening. We agree. That still doesn't give anybody right to resist arrest.

And I should have been more clear. Sure there are instances where there is no resistance and people get shot. But probably 75% of these issues are happening when there is some sort of fleeing or resisting arrest. Shooting at someone fleeing isn't justifiable, but it happens. And I'm not even saying that the police are right in some or most of these instances.

I'm just saying Cops have guns. If you attack them they WILL shoot you. If you resist arrest in any way, they MAY shoot you. And if you give them lip and refuse to cooperate they just MIGHT shoot you. So, don't do it.

Are we even disagreeing here? And no kidding it isn't happening to me. I think I made that clear.


I've told my kids that this isn't about police, it is just basic survival. If someone, anyone, has a gun pointed at you, do whatever they say as you can't win. Or if not, run serpentine.


https://youtu.be/A2_w-QCWpS0

[LA Ute]

1870

[Ma'ake]

We were talking in my family about the Black Lives Matter movement, the police shootings situation, etc. My oldest son, just about to get his Masters in Mining Engineering at the U, told us about an incident he had in high school that we'd never heard before.

My son and his friend, who is adopted, originally from El Salvador, were pulled over, and the officer took a very aggressive approach with my son's friend, who was the driver. Basically, the officer shoved the kid up on the hood, then had him face down on the pavement, and cuffed him.

My son got out of the car to try and appeal for calm, and the officer pointed his gun at him, and ordered him back in the car.

Eventually, both kids were released. The issue? An unpaid parking ticket.

Understood there are knucklehead cops, just like in every other field, but for a couple of middle class teenagers of color to get this kind of treatment, in Davis County, Utah, is a small indication of what the BLM folks are talking about.

[Rocker Ute]

When I was a teenager we got pulled over asked to exit the car and then thrown up against the car and handcuffed. We matched the description of some other teenagers causing problems (4 teenaged boys in a suburban). Call came in that they had caught them and he let us go warning us to 'watch out step' because you know... we matched a description.

Not being dismissive, these biases are real but we were lily white and got treated like crap too probably because we were teenagers (a curable ailment).


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[Scratch]

In high school my buddies and I were in my friend's old Oldsmobile (is that repetitive?) to go screw around at the governor's mansion on South Temple (we were friends with the governor's kid and he was with us). We got pulled over by a couple of cops who were just screaming at us, pushing us roughly against the car, and then having us lie face down on the sidewalk on South Temple while he went through the car. He asked us where we were going, so we told him but the cops thought we were screwing with them so they just yelled at us with a lot of rough language. After they searched the car they demanded our IDs, which we turned over. They got really sheepish when they saw the Leavitt driver's license and told us that the car matched a car that had been involved in a shooting and that's why they were acting that way.

Another time I had seminary, and the seminary at East High is right next to a 7-11. They always let seminary out a few minutes before class gets out to give the kids time to get to class, and I had time to run to 7-11 to grab a donut and Dr. Pepper. As soon as I walked in an undercover cop grabbed me, spun me around, and cuffed me roughly for being out of class. I explained to him what was going on and he didn't care. He shoved me into his unmarked cop car and drove me downtown to a detention-type center and made my mom come pick me up. She was furious because I had to miss a half day of classes. I was pretty polite even though he swore at me a couple of times while I was trying to explain what was going on and that I wasn't actually missing any classes. I was pissed off when he forced me to get into his Dodge Daytona, so when he told me at least I got to drive in a cool cop car I told him that I had the same car and it was a piece of crap (of course mine was about 12 years old and a much bigger piece of crap). After we started driving I also asked him if he was going to put my seat on (since I was cuffed) or if he was going to ticket me for that, too.

Anyway, to the extent there is a point to this, if I had been black I would have assumed the cop was racist. In fact, he was just a D-Bag. Not to say that there aren't racist cops out there, as I'm sure there are, but I have to believe a lot of the perceived racism is just due to some cops being jerks.

[Ma'ake]

Anyway, to the extent there is a point to this, if I had been black I would have assumed the cop was racist. In fact, he was just a D-Bag. Not to say that there aren't racist cops out there, as I'm sure there are, but I have to believe a lot of the perceived racism is just due to some cops being jerks.

I think there's a lot of truth here. Thanks for this feedback. People naturally see what they want to see.

This has been a fundamental dilemma for black Americans - do you object to racism when you (think you) see it? Or do you acknowledge that racism exists, and push forward, one day at a time, and choose to assume any given person you meet is fundamentally fair, and non-racist?

My kids are mostly like Obama - they've grown up in a predominantly white area, and have really not encountered much in the way of racism. Obama came of age in Honolulu, and had an upbringing that gave him positive self-esteem.

I don't think there's any way that Barack Obama could have become POTUS if he'd grown up in the South, or many big cities back east. He's been impervious to the subliminal stream of ill will and negative projections, from the warriors from a different time, like Mitch McConnell, apparently frustrating them, because he never cracked.

[LA Ute]

In my experience it is generally a bad idea to tell people they should not feel the way they feel. I think every black person I know feels at least a little uncomfortable around police officers and it seems foolish to me to say to them, "You shouldn't feel that way." All of them have experienced something like what Senator Scott describes, not once, but several times. I also know many LEOs, and not one of them is racist.

Statistics do show (1) that Black Americans are not more likely to face deadly force from law enforcement than others, but that (2) they are treated differently than whites, and are more likely to see non-deadly force used against them in encounters with police officers. I'm thoroughly sympathetic to, and supportive of, LEOs and of the rule of law -- everyone who knows me knows that. Still, we need to find a way to give all our citizens confidence in those who are sworn to protect and serve them.

http://www.npr.org/2016/07/14/485995136/watch-black-gop-senator-says-hes-been-stopped-7-times-by-police-in-a-year?sc=17&f=1001

[Rocker Ute]

So after saying what I did I am reminded of going to Texas as a missionary. Up to that point I believed that the KKK was largely reserved for the back woods of Mississippi and was basically in hiding. To drive by the Koffee Kup Kafe and to witness a KKK march down a predominantly black street a few days later was shocking. I didn't realize that racism was alive and well.

My observation in Utah is that if anything people try to overcompensate for other races that creates a different kind of awkwardness.

For example, I was in some training in Park City. The guy doing the training was black, a very funny guy. He asks the question, "Okay name a celebrity who owns a house here..." Someone says "Michael Jordan." He pauses for a second and says, "The group before you said Tiger Woods, and the group before that said Dr J. Now I've been walking around town and I'm not seeing a lot of brothers here..."

But racism in Utah is Ver real and shouldn't be dismissed. Don't believe it? Read cougarboard. So I hope I didn't come off as dismissive, just that as a teenager I experienced some profiling as well. I think I mentioned my Puerto Rican brother-in-law who gets pulled over every time he drives this beater pickup truck he has, but never when he is in a suit in his Toyota.


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[UtahsMrSports]

So after saying what I did I am reminded of going to Texas as a missionary. Up to that point I believed that the KKK was largely reserved for the back woods of Mississippi and was basically in hiding. To drive by the Koffee Kup Kafe and to witness a KKK march down a predominantly black street a few days later was shocking. I didn't realize that racism was alive and well.


I lived in East Texas for three years as a child. My parents bought a house that was under construction and we rented until it was finished. One night, some idiot who was working on the house parked a trailer backwards in front of it. In the late hours of the night, a black man crashed his car into the trailer. Because it was backwards, the light reflectors were not facing him and he didn't see it until it was too late.

In the morning, my mom came to the site to take a look. She asked another idiot working on the house if the man involved in the crash was ok. This moron says "why do you care? That (insert racial slur here, yes, that one.) had no business being in this neighborhood." My mom said "ummmm, excuse me?" and this guy explained that this was a white neighborhood and he shouldn't have been here.

This was in 1993, so quite some time ago, but not the 60's either. What's funny is that most of my friends were racial minorities. As a mormon kid, I was blackballed from hanging out with most of the other white kids. One time when I was 7, a friends mom even asked me to leave immediately once she found I was mormon. Im not saying that this helped me know what other folks go through and face on a day to day basis, but it taught me that despite differences in skin color, we are all still people and should be treated as such.

[UtahsMrSports]

Just wanted to say that I appreciate everyone's thoughts and perspectives here. I feel like I've grown as a person and learned a lot from reading everyone's thoughts on this, so I thank you all.

[Rocker Ute]

Uhg, 7 more officers shot in Baton Rouge, at least 3 dead. This all needs to stop.


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[LA Ute]

Uhg, 7 more officers shot in Baton Rouge, at least 3 dead. This all needs to stop.


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I have no words.

[mUUser]

Grateful my brother is retiring at the end of the month after 30 years as a Dallas police officer. My parents are even more grateful. He's had more than his fair share of close calls over the years. Appears to be an historic summer ahead of us....and not in a good way.

[Diehard Ute]

And another ambushed in Milwaukee, but he appears to have non life threatening injuries.

Guarantee everyone will still be at work with me tonight. We're all feeling a bit more tired though these days.


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[LA Ute]

Michael Jordan weighs in.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/07/25/michael-jordan-speaks-out-recent-shootings-police-violence/87527386/

[Diehard Ute]

MJ's response is what I would love to see more.

Dialogue and mutual respect is key. It's awesome to see places like Kansas City having a bbq so police and BLM folks can talk.

But it's disturbing to see the national leaders of BLM put down the bbq and some go so far as to say they "eat pig, not with pigs".

SLC has been on the dialogue route for some time. There are two or three separate groups who meet with SLCPD's admin on a biweekly basis.


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[Rocker Ute]

So an interesting observation (to me at least) this week. My LDS Stake was coerced, err... asked to enter a float into the children's parade last Saturday. We of course supported because of past float trauma (I'll tell the story someday - I hate parades) and my little kids marched in the parade with our Stake and my son and I sat on the sidelines near the end of the parade.

Because it was hot as hell, we found shade sitting on the steps of a building about 20-30 feet from the side of the road and a lot of people joined us there too. The kids kind of ran back and forth from the shade to the side of the road to see what was going on and then back to the shade. If something interesting came along all of the kids would run up. The crowd there was an interesting cross-section, because you had a mix of people of basically any demographic you could think of. Wealthy people, poor people, middle class, different ethnicities, etc. I think this was largely attributed to the fact that Stakes get assigned to do floats, and so you had people from upper-east bench, and people from Magna etc.

Anyway, during the parade some people dressed silly on motorized scooters came by and stopped in front of where we were at and started waving at the kids. Nearly all the kids were excited and came running up to them or waved back. Then the motorcycle cops came along driving in their formations. It was actually pretty cool to watch. But what happened was they'd do their stunts and 4 motorcycle cops would pull off the side - up the road and behind them - to keep things safe. Then they'd rotate back in.

A cop stopped right in front of the crowd of kids who were previously all happily waiving at the people on scooters. While he sat there he waved to the kids, but this time only about half of the kids waved back, and the rest kind of turned around and left angrily or sat there giving him dirty looks. I noted that it didn't seem to be divided by race, but rather by (my perceived) income level. I found that fascinating. The cop was good about it, he kept smiling and waving at the kids who were giving him dirty looks.

I'm not claiming anything, nor saying that those kids reactions weren't based on something real (like cops treating poor people differently than wealthy people), but it seemed clear to me that all of these kids had learned something from their parents. To the wealthy kids the cop was a friend, to the poor he was an enemy, or at the very least someone that couldn't be trusted.

Fixing all of this is going to take some time (generations even) and some real coming together and not just by racial boundaries. But when kids are taught and/or learn to hate cops, that is a hard thing to fix. That is what is concerning to me about all of this, and I have to say I'm glad to see MJ's approach of trying to bring people together. That is going to be the only solution.

[Two Utes]

So an interesting observation (to me at least) this week. My LDS Stake was coerced, err... asked to enter a float into the children's parade last Saturday. We of course supported because of past float trauma (I'll tell the story someday - I hate parades) and my little kids marched in the parade with our Stake and my son and I sat on the sidelines near the end of the parade.

Because it was hot as hell, we found shade sitting on the steps of a building about 20-30 feet from the side of the road and a lot of people joined us there too. The kids kind of ran back and forth from the shade to the side of the road to see what was going on and then back to the shade. If something interesting came along all of the kids would run up. The crowd there was an interesting cross-section, because you had a mix of people of basically any demographic you could think of. Wealthy people, poor people, middle class, different ethnicities, etc. I think this was largely attributed to the fact that Stakes get assigned to do floats, and so you had people from upper-east bench, and people from Magna etc.

Anyway, during the parade some people dressed silly on motorized scooters came by and stopped in front of where we were at and started waving at the kids. Nearly all the kids were excited and came running up to them or waved back. Then the motorcycle cops came along driving in their formations. It was actually pretty cool to watch. But what happened was they'd do their stunts and 4 motorcycle cops would pull off the side - up the road and behind them - to keep things safe. Then they'd rotate back in.

A cop stopped right in front of the crowd of kids who were previously all happily waiving at the people on scooters. While he sat there he waved to the kids, but this time only about half of the kids waved back, and the rest kind of turned around and left angrily or sat there giving him dirty looks. I noted that it didn't seem to be divided by race, but rather by (my perceived) income level. I found that fascinating. The cop was good about it, he kept smiling and waving at the kids who were giving him dirty looks.

I'm not claiming anything, nor saying that those kids reactions weren't based on something real (like cops treating poor people differently than wealthy people), but it seemed clear to me that all of these kids had learned something from their parents. To the wealthy kids the cop was a friend, to the poor he was an enemy, or at the very least someone that couldn't be trusted.

Fixing all of this is going to take some time (generations even) and some real coming together and not just by racial boundaries. But when kids are taught and/or learn to hate cops, that is a hard thing to fix. That is what is concerning to me about all of this, and I have to say I'm glad to see MJ's approach of trying to bring people together. That is going to be the only solution.


From 538, according to a new Harvard study:

Take, for instance, a high-profile study (http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399) released this month, though not yet peer-reviewed, by Harvard University economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. and covered in The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0) and many (http://www.houstonchronicle.com/about/article/Houston-Police-Chief-takes-credit-for-finding-of-8355293.php)other (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/07/11/economist-roland-fryer-injects-new-data-into-the-debate-about-police-and-race-generating-more-debate-about-data/)media (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/07/11/study_finds_police_officers_no_more_likely_to_shoo t_black_suspects.html)outlets (http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/07/11/harvard-economists-study-finds-no-racial-bias-police-shootings). It found that police are no more likely to shoot a black suspect than a white suspect in encounters in which using deadly force could be deemed justified — such as when suspects attack officers or resist arrest. The implication: Black people are shot at a higher rate relative to their population simply because they have more high-risk encounters with officers.

[Two Utes]

From 538, according to a new Harvard study:

Take, for instance, a high-profile study (http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399) released this month, though not yet peer-reviewed, by Harvard University economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. and covered in The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upshot/surprising-new-evidence-shows-bias-in-police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=0) and many (http://www.houstonchronicle.com/about/article/Houston-Police-Chief-takes-credit-for-finding-of-8355293.php)other (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/07/11/economist-roland-fryer-injects-new-data-into-the-debate-about-police-and-race-generating-more-debate-about-data/)media (http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/07/11/study_finds_police_officers_no_more_likely_to_shoo t_black_suspects.html)outlets (http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/07/11/harvard-economists-study-finds-no-racial-bias-police-shootings). It found that police are no more likely to shoot a black suspect than a white suspect in encounters in which using deadly force could be deemed justified — such as when suspects attack officers or resist arrest. The implication: Black people are shot at a higher rate relative to their population simply because they have more high-risk encounters with officers.






And according to another article (NY Times) discussing the Harvard report, while persons of color receive more physical contact from police officers, there is no statistical difference between whites and people of color when it comes to being shot by an officer when the "victim" has not attacked the officer.

[Rocker Ute]

And according to another article (NY Times) discussing the Harvard report, while persons of color receive more physical contact from police officers, there is no statistical difference between whites and people of color when it comes to being shot by an officer when the "victim" has not attacked the officer.

So maybe what I'd like to see is a study along economic lines. One easy place to start as I believe domestic disputes go across all demographic lines is how often those escalate or where arrests occur. In other words when Lovey and Thurston Howell have a screaming match on the lawn, do they get tossed into jail less often than Archie and Edith Bunker?

If my unscientific theory holds true it doesn't discount that blacks are disproportionally represented when it comes to police violence, rather they disproportionally are represented in poorer classes and that is another significant problem in itself.


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[Diehard Ute]

So maybe what I'd like to see is a study along economic lines. One easy place to start as I believe domestic disputes go across all demographic lines is how often those escalate or where arrests occur. In other words when Lovey and Thurston Howell have a screaming match on the lawn, do they get tossed into jail less often than Archie and Edith Bunker?

If my unscientific theory holds true it doesn't discount that blacks are disproportionally represented when it comes to police violence, rather they disproportionally are represented in poorer classes and that is another significant problem in itself.


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Yelling doesn't get anyone arrested.

Under Utah law any physical violence between cohabitants requires a mandatory arrest of the predominant aggressor. This da be an assault or damaged property during the course of an argument.

Officers have no discretion, an arrest has to be made.

The reality is socioeconomic factors are the biggest issue. But it's not in domestics etc.

It's in not having insurance, registering cars etc etc. Those things then cause interaction with the police in traffic stops.

The reality is many of the problems people have with police aren't actually a police issue. The issue they have is with the law, which the police are the face of.

In an average year more white people are killed during police encounters. Those who post statistics often base them on the percentage of people killed vs the percentage of that persons race in society as a whole. The problem becomes who do police deal with? And that's a question no one can really answer

If you look at the number of deaths that occur each year vs number of police contacts each year 99%+ of police contacts end with no such instance.

The SLC Civilian Review Board's latest report indicates they average approximately one complaint of excessive force a month. That's just accusations, not founded claims. For perspective SLCPD officers have over 1,000,000 citizen contacts per year. (All internal affairs cases are routed to them and anyone can file their own complaint directly to them as well)

I have zero doubt socioeconomic status plays a huge role. And that's where politicians should be focusing their time.

And yes I have personally witnessed people at that very parade tell their children that officers in uniform are the "bad guys"


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[Diehard Ute]

Officer Cody Brotherson West Valley Police Department was killed 11/06/16.

He was attempting to spike the tires of a vehicle that was fleeing from police when the subjects hit him with the vehicle.

Officer Brotherson was 25, he'd joined WVCPD in 2013.




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[U-Ute]

I saw the news reports and wondered how he was hit by a car. Sad news.

[Diehard Ute]

I'm sad to relay that Officer Jon Richey, the officer wounded in the encounter with the suspect who killed Officer Barney, was found dead at his residence this morning.

SLCPD and the ME are handling the investigation. No signs of foul play.

Jon retired from SLCPD about the time I got hired and went to work for UPD. He was one of the nicest people you'll ever meet.


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[LA Ute]

A Southern California story:

Suspect in Whittier cop killing, East L.A. slaying was AB 109 probationer

http://m.ocregister.com/articles/police-744630-cousin-whittier.html

[LA Ute]

This looks like a harrowing experience for the officer involved. I hope no one we know here ever has to go through anything like this.

Video shows Bradenton officer fight off attacker

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/246509237-story

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Kudos Diehard and the rest of SLPD. Now if we can just keep the bad guys from shooting cops, we'd be golden.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/salt-lake-city-police-de-escalation_us_591c9070e4b03b485cae1129?ncid=inblnk ushpmg00000009

[LA Ute]

Kudos Diehard and the rest of SLPD. Now if we can just keep the bad guys from shooting cops, we'd be golden.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/salt-lake-city-police-de-escalation_us_591c9070e4b03b485cae1129?ncid=inblnk ushpmg00000009

<like>

[LA Ute]

This is a very interesting and persuasive analysis of the Philando Castile shooting:

The Unwritten Law That Helps Bad Cops Go Free (http://amp.nationalreview.com/article/448828/philando-castile-shooting-police-must-display-reasonable-fear)

[UtahsMrSports]

This is a very interesting and persuasive analysis of the Philando Castile shooting:

The Unwritten Law That Helps Bad Cops Go Free (http://amp.nationalreview.com/article/448828/philando-castile-shooting-police-must-display-reasonable-fear)

I am admittedly ignorant on this subject, but I have a few thoughts after watching the video.

-Why does the officer unload a good portion, if not all, of his clip? I know its a thin line in a brief moment and anything can mean life and death but even then seems excessive.
-I have not heard anyone talk about this, but does the girlfriend seem just a little too calm here? I mean, within 30 seconds, she has facebook live going and while certainly upset, doesn't seem to be out of sorts mentally. I am not making any suggestions, I just find it odd.

Curious to know from those who have experience how this kind of stuff should be/is normally handled.

[Devildog]

I am admittedly ignorant on this subject, but I have a few thoughts after watching the video.

-Why does the officer unload a good portion, if not all, of his clip? I know its a thin line in a brief moment and anything can mean life and death but even then seems excessive.
-I have not heard anyone talk about this, but does the girlfriend seem just a little too calm here? I mean, within 30 seconds, she has facebook live going and while certainly upset, doesn't seem to be out of sorts mentally. I am not making any suggestions, I just find it odd.

Curious to know from those who have experience how this kind of stuff should be/is normally handled.

Well... it's not a clip. It's a magazine. So if you don't even recognize the basic terminology involved, you will struggle when it gets complex... Lets just agree you are ignorant on the subject.

[Devildog]

This is a very interesting and persuasive analysis of the Philando Castile shooting:

The Unwritten Law That Helps Bad Cops Go Free (http://amp.nationalreview.com/article/448828/philando-castile-shooting-police-must-display-reasonable-fear)

I read it. Easy to sit back and judge. Try it yourself counselor... get it wrong and you are dead. Complex variables, one second to decide. Humans are humans. Maybe years of education beats training for reality... I doubt it though.

[UtahsMrSports]

Well... it's not a clip. It's a magazine. So if you don't even recognize the basic terminology involved, you will struggle when it gets complex... Lets just agree you are ignorant on the subject.

This is from a guy who claimed to be in the Military and got operations in Afghanistan and Iraq mixed up?

Thank you for bringing your insight to the discussion. As always, this board is better because of you, Bill Nye the Science Guy.

[Devildog]

This is from a guy who claimed to be in the Military and got operations in Afghanistan and Iraq mixed up?

And there it is. You buy anything you are sold.

[Diehard Ute]

I am admittedly ignorant on this subject, but I have a few thoughts after watching the video.

-Why does the officer unload a good portion, if not all, of his clip? I know its a thin line in a brief moment and anything can mean life and death but even then seems excessive.
-I have not heard anyone talk about this, but does the girlfriend seem just a little too calm here? I mean, within 30 seconds, she has facebook live going and while certainly upset, doesn't seem to be out of sorts mentally. I am not making any suggestions, I just find it odd.

Curious to know from those who have experience how this kind of stuff should be/is normally handled.

For most departments 7 rounds isn't even half of a magazine. Most departments issue Glock 17's. A magazine holds 17 rounds with an 18th in the chamber.

Round count in a shooting is something that's often misunderstood.

The average shooter can fire 3 or so rounds a second. The brain takes time to recognize the threat has stopped and then there is time to send the signal to the hands to stop.

Even in sterile testing conditions most officers will fire at least one more round after a stop stimulus is given, some 2 or 3.

The Force Science Institute has done some really great research on these kinds of things. There are lots of factors involved in any police encounter, some are just physiological things that can't be changed.

http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/144.html


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[chrisrenrut]

Well... it's not a clip. It's a magazine. So if you don't even recognize the basic terminology involved, you will struggle when it gets complex... Lets just agree you are ignorant on the subject.

Geez DD, lately all you want to do is point out other people's weaknesses, and assert your superiority. Mr. admitted he was ignorant, and asked questions. All you did was point out a minor semantics issue, and act all superior. It gets tiresome.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I am admittedly ignorant on this subject, but I have a few thoughts after watching the video.

-Why does the officer unload a good portion, if not all, of his clip? I know its a thin line in a brief moment and anything can mean life and death but even then seems excessive.
-I have not heard anyone talk about this, but does the girlfriend seem just a little too calm here? I mean, within 30 seconds, she has facebook live going and while certainly upset, doesn't seem to be out of sorts mentally. I am not making any suggestions, I just find it odd.

Curious to know from those who have experience how this kind of stuff should be/is normally handled.

Well, for starters, she just witnessed what happened to her calm, polite boyfriend in a matter of 5 seconds. Said overreacting was still yelling, swearing and pointing a gun in her face. It's not a stretch to say that staying calm was her only chance of survival. The fact that in these circumstances, she's still managing to punctuate each exchange with "sir" impresses me beyond words.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

geez dd, lately all you want to do is point out other people's weaknesses, and assert your superiority. Mr. Admitted he was ignorant, and asked questions. All you did was point out a minor semantics issue, and act all superior. It gets tiresome.

lol.

[Rocker Ute]

I can't imagine being put in these sort of situations. My observation is that friends I have in law enforcement have a pretty dim view of society in general and that is because all they deal with all day is the dregs of society. That factor alone has to play into how an officer reacts... they believe someone is trying to hurt them because often people are. So I'm not saying Philando did anything wrong, but we also see through a different lens than an officer typically does.

Tragic no matter how you slice it.

One other thing about his wife acting calm at the time. A few years back I was riding my bike down Millcreek Canyon and was stopped at the light at the base of the canyon and Wasatch Blvd. A VW Scirocco was traveling south through the intersection going full speed, a lady in a Toyota turned left in front of her before she even could react to brake or brace or anything. Old car, no airbags or other safety features, her face went full speed into the steering wheel.

I dropped my bike, ran up to her and put compression on the wound on her head that was squirting blood everywhere. It is quite the sensation to have someone's warm blood pouring over your hands like that. We were able to slow the bleeding, the fire station was right there and so help came fast and my understand was she lived. The police came and took a report, I put my bike gloves in a bag and washed my hands, looked at the blood all over my jersey and kind of shrugged and went to get my bike to go home. About two minutes down the road I started to shake so bad I had to stop riding and sit down and process for a bit. The reality of what had just happened finally hit (and at the time I didn't think she was going to live, it felt like she had lost a TON of blood).

Point is, in situations that traumatic you can't judge how you'll react. I remember when I was trying to help the lady the other lady driving the car was in hysterics screaming and she kept trying to get me to agree with her that it was the injured lady's fault. I finally to get out of my face on less than nice terms. Her reaction was also not seemingly appropriate for the situation in the other direction.

[Devildog]

Geez DD, lately all you want to do is point out other people's weaknesses, and assert your superiority. Mr. admitted he was ignorant, and asked questions. All you did was point out a minor semantics issue, and act all superior. It gets tiresome.

Did you completely miss the point where he came at me?

[Ma'ake]

The article is very disturbing, but it's reality.

I'm not going to share this article with my wife and sons. They will almost certainly deal with more DWB incidents, but if they haven't read this article, they're less likely to be freaked out by being pulled over, which in turn could freak out the officer, which conceivably might escalate to... I don't even want to think about it.

The African American community knows about these kinds of incidents well, and word travels, which is how you have perfectly innocent people pulled over, but panic and take off on a high-speed chase, which results in them going to prison, at best. I've heard about these panic reactions and thought "if you would have just relaxed and complied, you would have been fine", but I would have never thought my wife and kids would experience DWB pullovers... here in Utah.

Even after being married for 30 years to a "sista", I learn new things on racial topics I would have never considered, before. For many, many African Americans, these verdicts exonerating the police - in what appear to be clear-cut situations - translates into a rational fear that if they're pulled over, for whatever reason, their life may be about to end. That's seriously bad, on multiple levels.

(Just as Diehard and others accurately describe the mind's reaction in high stress situations, many good, decent people have racist "inklings" pop up in their minds, nature's signal that "this person is different - beware!".)

But hopefully... hopefully... articles like this can help most other Americans understand that the Black Lives Matter movement is not an irrational, unreasonable group of reverse-racists who only want to cause problems, or get free stuff from the government.

[chrisrenrut]

Did you completely miss the point where he came at me?

i must have. I didn't see anywhere in his original message where he "came at you".


I am admittedly ignorant on this subject, but I have a few thoughts after watching the video.

-Why does the officer unload a good portion, if not all, of his clip? I know its a thin line in a brief moment and anything can mean life and death but even then seems excessive.
-I have not heard anyone talk about this, but does the girlfriend seem just a little too calm here? I mean, within 30 seconds, she has facebook live going and while certainly upset, doesn't seem to be out of sorts mentally. I am not making any suggestions, I just find it odd.

Curious to know from those who have experience how this kind of stuff should be/is normally handled.

[mUUser]

Throw the book at this scum sucking loser......

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44912894&nid=148&title=unified-police-k-9-shot-and-killed-while-chasing-fugitive

[UTEopia]

Diehard - thanks for being out there.

[Diehard Ute]

Diehard - thanks for being out there.

Happy to do it.

I love my job and can't imagine doing anything else

I appreciate the post though. Honestly people thanking us really does make it all worth it.




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[tooblue]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?hpid=hp_hp-morning-mix_mm-nurse%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.10ea88b2efa3

[UtahsMrSports]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?hpid=hp_hp-morning-mix_mm-nurse%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.10ea88b2efa3

I consider police officers to be heroes. That guy is a tool and I would expect he will no longer be a public servant soon.

[LA Ute]

I consider police officers to be heroes. That guy is a tool and I would expect he will no longer be a public servant soon.

I don't know why the officer's training did not kick in. Everybody in the hospital world knows the rules on taking blood from unconscious patients, and I am sure SLPD does too. He must have been having a bad day. I doubt he'll remain on the blood draw team after this.

[UtahsMrSports]

I don't know why the officer's training did not kick in. Everybody in the hospital world knows the rules on taking blood from unconscious patients, and I am sure SLPD does too. He must have been having a bad day. I doubt he'll remain on the blood draw team after this.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45629038&nid=148&title=stop-ive-done-nothing-wrong-nurse-shares-police-video-of-crazy-arrest-by-sl-officer

Sounds like his off the team, but still on the force pending an internal investigation. His comment about bringing that hospital all the transients and taking the good patients elsewhere is another indicator that this guy might not be fit for public service, even if he is joking.

[mUUser]

I think the key sentence in this story is: "He snapped." People that carry weapons for a living don't have the luxury of "snapping" on the job. I suspect the both the officer and the lieutenant will be strongly disciplined. Maybe termination? IDK.

[NorthwestUteFan]

That D-bag should lose his badge, lose his right to own a gun, and be forced to shave his mustache.

Oh, and the nurse and hospital should very easily win a huge lawsuit over it

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

That D-bag should lose his badge, lose his right to own a gun, and be forced to shave his mustache.

Oh, and the nurse and hospital should very easily win a huge lawsuit over it

This video has had me pissed off all morning, but that mustache line cracked me. Thanks.


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[concerned]

That video and story has really gone viral and national. Being reported everywhere.

[LA Ute]

That video and story has really gone viral and national. Being reported everywhere.

That he did what he did knowing a body cam was recording him adds to the puzzle. Maybe the officer needs a stress leave or something along those lines. As someone said, LEOs don't have the privilege of "snapping."

[Two Utes]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/01/this-is-crazy-sobs-utah-hospital-nurse-as-cop-roughs-her-up-arrests-her-for-doing-her-job/?hpid=hp_hp-morning-mix_mm-nurse%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.10ea88b2efa3


Yikes. WTF? Most citizens want to defend cops because they do a difficult job. Sometimes they just make it really difficult.

[hostile]

Yikes. WTF? Most citizens want to defend cops because they do a difficult job. Sometimes they just make it really difficult.
Where I work cops interact routinely with nurses, techs, MD's and other health care workers. Never seen or heard of an incident like this. They usually are calm and measured in the face of stressful and crazy situations. Not sure why it was was different in this case.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Where I work cops interact routinely with nurses, techs, MD's and other health care workers. Never seen or heard of an incident like this. They usually are calm and measured in the face of stressful and crazy situations. Not sure why it was was different in this case.Victim was a full-time truck driver and part-time cop in Idaho. The accident was caused by a person evading police. There is a very high chance the PD will get sued for causing the accident, and it is not unreasonable to think they will try to get some incriminating info on the victim, just in case.

[LA Ute]

"Every Cop Involved in the Arrest of This Utah Nurse for Refusing to (Illegally) Draw a Patient’s Blood Needs to Be Fired (http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-this)"
http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-this

[sancho]

"Every Cop Involved in the Arrest of This Utah Nurse for Refusing to (Illegally) Draw a Patient’s Blood Needs to Be Fired (http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-this)"


http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/every-cop-involved-in-the-arrest-of-this

Did this officer have a long, clean record of service up to this point? If so, I'd reprimand him and forgive him, especially if he genuinely feels bad about losing it.

[Rocker Ute]

What I don't understand in all of this is up to the point of when things getting crazy it was obviously just two people trying to do their jobs and doing what their supervisors demanded. Why not get their supervisors talking to each other and sort it out. She was clearly trying to comply with the cop's request by contacting various supervisors, it wasn't just her being belligerent.

As a cop I would be worried that if the draw was done illegally it would later be inadmissible in court too.

Paul Cassell's take was pretty interesting: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/


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[LA Ute]

What I don't understand in all of this is up to the point of when things getting crazy it was obviously just two people trying to do their jobs and doing what their supervisors demanded. Why not get their supervisors talking to each other and sort it out. She was clearly trying to comply with the cop's request by contacting various supervisors, it wasn't just her being belligerent.

As a cop I would be worried that if the draw was done illegally it would later be inadmissible in court too.

Paul Cassell's take was pretty interesting: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/09/01/paul-cassell-cop-who-arrested-nurse-was-wrong-but-the-law-is-complicated/

The Cassell op-ed is enlightening. If the officer hadn't lost it this could have ended without all the drama.


Did this officer have a long, clean record of service up to this point? If so, I'd reprimand him and forgive him, especially if he genuinely feels bad about losing it.

The article I linked to is from a libertarian publication that leans anti-cop. I'll leave it to the SLPD to sort this out. I doubt that officer will ever be back on the blood draw detail, however.

[Rocker Ute]

Another reasonable solution given the apparent impasse would be to have the hospital do the blood draw but retain possession of it until the issue could be sorted out, or they could get a warrant, since time was of the essence regarding his potential BAC.

[mUUser]

Union doubling down on Wubbels incident......


https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45952173&nid=148

[UtahsMrSports]

Union doubling down on Wubbels incident......


https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45952173&nid=148

Hartney's comments deserve a laugh track behind them. What a stooge.

I've spoken to officer Payne myself and he said, 'Yes, of course I could have done things differently.' But once he made the decision to make the arrest, he needs to follow through. And he did follow through,"

Based on what little he says he has seen, Hartney believes Payne gave Wubbels ample time to peacefully put her hands behind her back before arresting her more forcefully.
"I would say yes, because in that video I saw, I could see that she was informed that she was under arrest. I saw her swat officer Payne's hand away using her hand. I saw her back up. I saw her spin around. There was lots of movements there," Hartney said.

He also noted that "any resisting of arrest, it's embarrassing and it does not look good. There's no way it ever can. It's odd to say, but known criminals are easier to arrest than a first-time offender because they know the process: they turn around, they put their hands behind their back, we put handcuffs on them and escort them to the car."

[mUUser]

Payne terminated. Brown demoted. Appeals and lawsuits likely to follow........

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46118645&nid=148&title=chief-fires-officer-who-arrested-u-nurse-lieutenant-demoted

[Sullyute]

That seems a little harsh, but maybe I haven't followed the story close enough.


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[UtahsMrSports]

That seems a little harsh, but maybe I haven't followed the story close enough.


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I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone, but just watching that video, even once, shows that he has no business being a police officer. I don't see what other choice they had.

[sancho]

I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone

I think this matters. If he's always beeb a great cop, i have no problem forgiving this mistake. I imagine they want to do that but can't because the video went viral, and we are really unforgiving towards people we don't know.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone, but just watching that video, even once, shows that he has no business being a police officer. I don't see what other choice they had.He probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or wear a mustache either.

[Rocker Ute]

I think this matters. If he's always beeb a great cop, i have no problem forgiving this mistake. I imagine they want to do that but can't because the video went viral, and we are really unforgiving towards people we don't know.

FWIW, a guy I trust who is familiar with Payne had a very low opinion of him before this happened as an officer.

I mentioned elsewhere that I don't think the sentence he has received (as dealt by public opinion) truly matches the crime, meaning he has been so publicly castigated that he probably won't be able to get a job anywhere. However, I also believe he probably should have lost his job with the SLCPD. Guys going nuts in a non-hostile non-urgent situation should probably not be out there protecting the public. Hopefully that distinction makes sense.

[Sullyute]

He probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or wear a mustache either.

We have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.

[NorthwestUteFan]

We have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.I don't care. He is no longer worthy of his mustache card.

[LA Ute]

This seems to fit here better than anywhere else.

The NFL Stops Indulging a Dangerous Narrative

By Jason L. Riley
May 29, 2018 7:20 p.m. ET

Is the National Foodball League’s new national-anthem policy a sop to President Trump or a nod to the millions of football fans who were beginning to think the people in charge of the country’s most popular professional sport were losing their way?

After two seasons of sheepish thumb-twiddling, Commissioner Roger Goodell announced last week that players will now be required to stand for the playing of the “The Star-Spangled Banner” or remain in the locker room until the anthem has been performed. No more kneeling before the television cameras to protest this or that social cause ahead of game time on any given Sunday. Teams will be fined if players violate the new rule.

Mr. Trump, a harsh critic of the player protests, offered support for the new policy and called for the league to go further. “I don’t think people should be staying in the locker rooms,” he told “Fox & Friends.” “You have to stand proudly for the national anthem. Or you shouldn’t be playing, you shouldn’t be there. Maybe you shouldn’t be in the country.”

It’s doubtful many Americans believe kneeling for the anthem is a firing offense—let alone a deportable one. And the Supreme Court has held that such protests are constitutionally protected. Mindful of First Amendment values, the league is wise to give the athletes safe harbor if they don’t want to stand for the anthem. The protesting players, who say they are calling attention to police treatment of black criminal suspects, among other causes, are free to showcase their higher consciousness at other times and in other places. Just not on the field before kickoff.

Mr. Goodell said in a statement that the goal of the new policy is to “keep our focus on the game and the extraordinary athletes who play it—and on our fans who enjoy it.” That makes perfect sense. What’s odd is how long it took for the league management to realize that it was out of step with so many ticket holders and viewers. A Yahoo Sports/YouGov survey released last week found that 53% of self-described NFL fans support the policy change while only 32% oppose it. The general public supports the policy by a 16-point margin.

Those numbers haven’t moved much since Colin Kaepernick, a former backup quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, first took a knee during the anthem at a preseason game in 2016. Polls have consistently shown that Americans oppose this behavior. Mr. Trump isn’t the only person in the country who tunes into the NFL to watch, you know, football.

But the protests have been more than an annoying distraction for sports fans. On a more substantive level, they have been used by political progressives and the mainstream media to advance a dangerous antipolice narrative at odds with the available empirical data. An increase in the coverage of police shootings, thanks to social media and cable news, has been presented as evidence of an increase in the number of police shootings. Statistically rare and isolated incidents are offered as evidence of an epidemic.

In fact, police use of lethal force has been falling for decades. Police shootings in New York City are down by more than 90% since the early 1970s. In Chicago, shootings involving police fell by more than half—to 44 from 107—between 2011 and 2015, according to a database compiled by the Chicago Tribune. That means police-involved shootings represented just over 1% of total shootings in the Windy City in 2015. Over the same five-year period, police in other major cities with sizable minority populations, including Los Angeles, Houston and Philadelphia, resorted to lethal force less frequently than Chicago police officers.

A recent study published in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery assessed more than a million service calls to police departments in North Carolina, Louisiana and Arizona and found that cops used physical force in the course of arrests less than 1% of the time.

Writing earlier this month about the study’s findings, the Manhattan Institute’s Rafael Mangual lamented “a media landscape that regularly devotes front pages and opening monologues to graphic cases of police force, against racial minorities in particular” without providing proper context. “Despite the slim chances of being subjected to police violence, many Americans continue to harbor fear of the police, substantially attributable to near-constant coverage of isolated incidents.”

The NFL’s indulgence of this false narrative perpetrated by the political left has contributed to this undermining of social trust. Even those of us who don’t watch football should be grateful for the new policy.

Appeared in the May 30, 2018, print edition.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nfl-stops-indulging-a-dangerous-narrative-1527636018

[Scorcho]

truth can be stranger than fiction

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DmfUjV6UYAAtJ7a.jpg:large

[Sullyute]

Yikes! Definitely more to the story there.

[LA Ute]

I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/09/police-shootings-david-french-changed-writing/

[Diehard Ute]

I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/09/police-shootings-david-french-changed-writing/

It’s not bad, although I still think he’s throwing out all kinds of stuff just for attention.

His statements about combat are uninformed.

An officer I work with, who I happened to train, had been in the military for years and has done combat tours without harm

In March of 2014 he and another officer were shot in downtown salt lake. He suffered injuries which kept him off working the streets until this year, and some of his injuries will never fully heal.

While he was out he was assigned to the training unit, and with his military experience he was wondering what the odds were he’d be shot in the US and not in combat

So he crunched the numbers, and discovered a police officer is statistically more likely to be shot than a combat soldier. It’s a small margin, but it exists.

Now, he mentions learning from combat soldiers. Something we already do, but at the same time, there’s a need to retrain soldiers who become police officers.

Military rules of enhancement are basically someone shoots at you, you shoot back. It doesn’t matter where your rounds hit, that’s part of war.

We don’t get that luxury. We’re accountable for every single round. Having never used deadly force, but been on scene when others have, I have had my gun and magazines downloaded in an interrogation room on camera.

So when we get a soldier in to law enforcement they often have great technical skills, but we have to teach them how to do what we do.

As I’ve always said there are bad police shootings but they’re very rare. There are instances of racial bias as well, although I think that’s is rare and continues to decrease. I don’t know that this narrative will ever stop, simply because regardless of the reason an officer takes action, someone will claim a bias, even if there wasn’t one.

The situation in Dallas is NOT a police shooting. It’s a police officer who used force off duty. While that invoked the increased investigations of an on duty incident, it certainly should not be looked at as such. (In Salt Lake an officer discharging their weapon starts 5 investigations. A citizen doing so starts 1)

I could have shot several people in my career. I haven’t. I’m glad I was able to do something else, but sometimes there isn’t. Almost every veteran officer I know has similar stories

This is always going to be a conversation. I appreciate the author changing his stance some, but I also believe there’s still more to be done so we can all be on the same page. (Salt Lake has a TON of opportunities for citizens to get involved, yet activists continue to demand control, not involvement)



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[Sullyute]

I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/09/police-shootings-david-french-changed-writing/

That was a refreshing piece to read.

[LA Ute]

It’s not bad, although I still think he’s throwing out all kinds of stuff just for attention.

His statements about combat are uninformed.

An officer I work with, who I happened to train, had been in the military for years and has done combat tours without harm

In March of 2014 he and another officer were shot in downtown salt lake. He suffered injuries which kept him off working the streets until this year, and some of his injuries will never fully heal.

While he was out he was assigned to the training unit, and with his military experience he was wondering what the odds were he’d be shot in the US and not in combat

So he crunched the numbers, and discovered a police officer is statistically more likely to be shot than a combat soldier. It’s a small margin, but it exists.

Now, he mentions learning from combat soldiers. Something we already do, but at the same time, there’s a need to retrain soldiers who become police officers.

Military rules of enhancement are basically someone shoots at you, you shoot back. It doesn’t matter where your rounds hit, that’s part of war.

We don’t get that luxury. We’re accountable for every single round. Having never used deadly force, but been on scene when others have, I have had my gun and magazines downloaded in an interrogation room on camera.

So when we get a soldier in to law enforcement they often have great technical skills, but we have to teach them how to do what we do.

As I’ve always said there are bad police shootings but they’re very rare. There are instances of racial bias as well, although I think that’s is rare and continues to decrease. I don’t know that this narrative will ever stop, simply because regardless of the reason an officer takes action, someone will claim a bias, even if there wasn’t one.

The situation in Dallas is NOT a police shooting. It’s a police officer who used force off duty. While that invoked the increased investigations of an on duty incident, it certainly should not be looked at as such. (In Salt Lake an officer discharging their weapon starts 5 investigations. A citizen doing so starts 1)

I could have shot several people in my career. I haven’t. I’m glad I was able to do something else, but sometimes there isn’t. Almost every veteran officer I know has similar stories

This is always going to be a conversation. I appreciate the author changing his stance some, but I also believe there’s still more to be done so we can all be on the same page. (Salt Lake has a TON of opportunities for citizens to get involved, yet activists continue to demand control, not involvement)

Excellent info. Thanks for posting. This subject's complexity is amazing.

[LA Ute]

Diehard, this looks like a training failure by the Chicago PD. Fair guess?

Officer shoots, kills armed security guard outside south suburban bar

https://wgntv.com/2018/11/11/multiple-wounded-in-robbins-bar-shooting-police-say/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5be90a0c04d3010e98049d31&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

[Diehard Ute]

Diehard, this looks like a training failure by the Chicago PD. Fair guess?

Officer shoots, kills armed security guard outside south suburban bar

https://wgntv.com/2018/11/11/multiple-wounded-in-robbins-bar-shooting-police-say/?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5be90a0c04d3010e98049d31&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

No where near enough information there to draw any conclusions.

That’s the hardest part of these investigations. The public can say whatever they want....investigating agencies can’t say anything, so no one really knows what happened.


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[LA Ute]

No where near enough information there to draw any conclusions.

That’s the hardest part of these investigations. The public can say whatever they want....investigating agencies can’t say anything, so no one really knows what happened.


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Right, I meant to say "based on this information," but I forgot.

[Diehard Ute]

Right, I meant to say "based on this information," but I forgot.

Without seeing the investigation results I’d never comment....this stuff is just so complex.

Many never realize the off duty Ogden PD Officer at Trolley Square was the reported “second gunman” and very easily could have been shot in the chaos. He was lucky Sgt Oblad was a square away guy who picked up on physical clues and realized he was a cop.


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[Diehard Ute]

I spent most of the game tonight struggling to enjoy the Utes comeback.

Approximately an hour before the game an officer from South Salt Lake was run over by a burglary suspect.

About 90 minutes in to the game I was advised the officer had died.

It’s a small community. There are about 7,000 sworn peace officers in Utah. Word travels fast. I did not know this officer. But I know many from his department. The color of his uniform does not matter, he wore a badge and he was my brother.

The news of his death has just broken on social media....hours after we knew. I will always be a Ute, but honestly tonight it really was just a game....the outcome wasn’t really important.




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[Sullyute]

Beautifully written. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and the peace officer community at large.

[LA Ute]

I spent most of the game tonight struggling to enjoy the Utes comeback.

Approximately an hour before the game an officer from South Salt Lake was run over by a burglary suspect.

About 90 minutes in to the game I was advised the officer had died.

It’s a small community. There are about 7,000 sworn peace officers in Utah. Word travels fast. I did not know this officer. But I know many from his department. The color of his uniform does not matter, he wore a badge and he was my brother.

The news of his death has just broken on social media....hours after we knew. I will always be a Ute, but honestly tonight it really was just a game....the outcome wasn’t really important.

Thanks for that, Diehard, and for your dedication and service. I’m so sorry for your loss, and the community’s loss. I’m a Salt Lake City resident now and feel this one a bit more personally..

[Diehard Ute]

Just an update now that the information has been made public

Officer David Romrell was killed in the line of duty.

Officer Romrell was 31, he had been with South Salt Lake for only 11 months. Prior to law enforcement he was a US Marine with multiple tours. He leaves behind a wife and 4 month old child.


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[UTEopia]

Just an update now that the information has been made public

Officer David Romrell was killed in the line of duty.

Officer Romrell was 31, he had been with South Salt Lake for only 11 months. Prior to law enforcement he was a US Marine with multiple tours. He leaves behind a wife and 4 month old child.


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Terrible.

[chrisrenrut]

Dang, just read the article about the situation. So sad. Any call or incident could be a life-threatening situation. Officer Romero served multiple tours as a marine, but a burglary call in South Salt Lake is where his life ended. The article says this is the first Line of duty death is South Salt Lake.

t makes me appreciate what LEO’s do for us everyday.

[Diehard Ute]

Dang, just read the article about the situation. So sad. Any call or incident could be a life-threatening situation. Officer Romero served multiple tours as a marine, but a burglary call in South Salt Lake is where his life ended. The article says this is the first Line of duty death is South Salt Lake.

t makes me appreciate what LEO’s do for us everyday.

One of my former recruits is also in the national guard and had deployed multiple times.

He was curious about the risks in both jobs so he did the math. He found he’s slightly more at risk of being killed as a law enforcement officer than he was on any combat tour.




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[Scorcho]

One of my former recruits is also in the national guard and had deployed multiple times.

He was curious about the risks in both jobs so he did the math. He found he’s slightly more at risk of being killed as a law enforcement officer than he was on any combat tour.




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The officer killed last night had a wife and 4 month old son. Hoping this isn't an insensitive comment, but do the spouses get taken care of financially? I sure hope they get great life insurance and a pension?

[Diehard Ute]

The officer killed last night had a wife and 4 month old son. Hoping this isn't an insensitive comment, but do the spouses get taken care of financially? I sure hope they get great life insurance and a pension?

Not really. The legislature changed the law so a survivor can get the pension, but he had 11 months on so there’s little to be had.

Unless you pay for extra life insurance most cities give $50,000 tops.

There is a charity foundation in Utah who will give his wife a check for $25,000 this week.

Utah is not the greatest at taking care of their fallen


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[Scorcho]

Not really. The legislature changed the law so a survivor can get the pension, but he had 11 months on so there’s little to be had.

Unless you pay for extra life insurance most cities give $50,000 tops.

There is a charity foundation in Utah who will give his wife a check for $25,000 this week.

Utah is not the greatest at taking care of their fallen


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That is disappointing.

[Diehard Ute]

Provo City police Officer shot and killed yesterday.

There have now been 6 officers killed on January 5th in Utah. Deadliest single day in the state.

Both Josie Greathouse Fox and Jared Francom we’re killed on the 5th (Josie was the first line of duty death funeral I attended 8 years ago. Sadly I’ve been to almost 10 since)




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[Sullyute]

Provo City police Officer shot and killed yesterday.

There have now been 6 officers killed on January 5th in Utah. Deadliest single day in the state.

Both Josie Greathouse Fox and Jared Francom we’re killed on the 5th (Josie was the first line of duty death funeral I attended 8 years ago. Sadly I’ve been to almost 10 since)

I am sorry to hear this... for you, your follow officers, and the community as a whole.

[Ma'ake]

Provo City police Officer shot and killed yesterday.

There have now been 6 officers killed on January 5th in Utah. Deadliest single day in the state.

Both Josie Greathouse Fox and Jared Francom we’re killed on the 5th (Josie was the first line of duty death funeral I attended 8 years ago. Sadly I’ve been to almost 10 since)

Every time I hear this kind of news, it's a blow.

Public servants, overwhelmingly good people, put in crazy amounts of stressful situations... then something like this.

Pretty sure I speak for everyone on this board when I say we feel for you & the rest of the law enforcement community.

[LA Ute]

Pretty sure I speak for everyone on this board when I say we feel for you & the rest of the law enforcement community.

You do for me, Ma’ake. Be safe, Diehard.