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LA Ute
02-03-2016, 12:23 PM
Why on earth did the choose those mascots, anyway?

Phil Cullen's e-mail today:


This week's games at the Oregon Schools will mark the toughest Conference Schedule in the Power 5 Conferences. We are one of two teams that play their first 7 out of 11 games on the road, Arizona is the other team.

We open up at Oregon State on Thursday at 9 pm MT on ESPN 2. They are coming off of a tough road trip to the Arizona schools and have been a much better team at home this year. They continue to be led by Sr. point guard #1 Gary Payton Jr. who is averaging 15.7 ppg, 7.9 rpg and 6 apg in Conference play. Behind him are the freshman duo of #3 Tres Tinkle and #2 Stephen Thompson averaging 13.3 ppg and 10.4 ppg respectively. They also have several key players that can make major contributions on any given night.

Oregon State has thrown a number of different defenses at us in the past and we expect them to do the same this week. We have had trouble scoring the ball at their place recently so we are adding a few things to help our chances versus their zones.

We will play Oregon on Sunday at 2 pm MT on ESPN 2. Oregon may be one of the hottest teams in the country right now. Sitting on top of the Pac-12 with an RPI of #3 they are the team to beat. They win with a group of guys who are interchangeable in their offense and compliment one another. They are led by #24 Dillon Brook 17.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, #25 Chris Boucher 14.4 ppg, 6.6 rpg. The dont have a deep bench but have 7-8 guys who have all had games of double figure scoring in conference play.

To win we will need to take care of the basketball limiting our turnovers. They turn up the heat on defense with a variety of extended pressure zones and man to man. Tempo is huge and we will need to make sure that it favors our tempo.

Solon
02-03-2016, 12:35 PM
Why on earth did the choose those mascots, anyway?

Phil Cullen's e-mail today:


Wait - beavers & ducks in lairs?
Ponds, maybe. dams for the beavers. But 'lairs'???

LA Ute
02-03-2016, 01:14 PM
Wait - beavers & ducks in lairs?
Ponds, maybe. dams for the beavers. But 'lairs'???

"Habitat" didn't have the right ring at first, but you've pushed me over the edge.

Beavers mostly live in lodges.

1776

LA Ute
02-03-2016, 01:18 PM
The beaver is a primarily nocturnal, large, semiaquatic rodent.

1777

Diehard Ute
02-03-2016, 02:14 PM
Oh I thought they named themselves after something else entirely ;)


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LA Ute
02-03-2016, 03:12 PM
Oh I thought they named themselves after something else entirely ;)

I think it's actually funnier that their mascot is a rodent.

HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-03-2016, 05:19 PM
Oregon is a special place, even our special Beaver friends. When you represent a greatness you can't just be a bear/dog/cat/American Indian you need to stand out and be different.

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 08:37 AM
I remember staying up late for last year's game vs. OSU and we won it like 41 - 40 (ok, 47-37). Still, this OSU team is better and but for a trip of an official, may have actually held on to beat us in SLC. That win, however, was the start of the winning streak we are currently on, and I think getting this win tonight will be paramount to finishing with a first round bye, especially when you consider that after this Oregon trip we're home 5 of the last 7 games of the season.

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 09:24 PM
Jeez, OSU can't miss to start this one.

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DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 09:29 PM
Kuzma off to a real nice start.

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chrisrenrut
02-04-2016, 09:35 PM
Jeez, OSU can't miss to start this one.

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Both teams shooting about 60% so far.

LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:03 PM
Halftime and not a point scored by Loveridge (which isn't unusual) or Taylor (which is).

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 10:12 PM
Taylor throws one away, Larry reacts: "come on Brandon! Get your head out of your ass"

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DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 10:44 PM
10 point lead just evaporated.

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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:44 PM
10 point lead just evaporated.

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Wow.


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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:45 PM
Team's gotta find their poise.


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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:51 PM
Right now OSU is bringing the game to the Utes. As LK would say, they're dialed in, we are not.


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DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 10:53 PM
Right now OSU is bringing the game to the Utes. As LK would say, they're dialed in, we are not.


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You would be hard pressed to find a worse performance by Taylor in his career.

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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:55 PM
Traveling. Really? In crunch time?


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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:58 PM
We're collapsing. Shades of the Stanford game.

LA Ute
02-04-2016, 10:59 PM
14-3 run by the Beavers. Gotta hand it to them.


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LA Ute
02-04-2016, 11:00 PM
Make that a 16-3 run.


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DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:03 PM
Let's see if we get a shot off.

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Diehard Ute
02-04-2016, 11:06 PM
What is Brandon Taylor doing!?!?!?!?


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DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:06 PM
Pac 12 refs giveth and they taketh away.

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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-04-2016, 11:07 PM
Two of the worst foul calls all season to end this game. That's a bad flop.

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:08 PM
I just...smh

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Diehard Ute
02-04-2016, 11:08 PM
Technically the whistle came after the clock read 0.0...not saying they'll say it's over, but the whistle was after the buzzer on the replay


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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-04-2016, 11:09 PM
Worst play of the season.

Wasn't a foul, trying to challenge the shot. I don't blame the player for that. He's straight up, gets jumped into and Beav flops.

LA Ute
02-04-2016, 11:10 PM
I don't have the words. Good night.


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Diehard Ute
02-04-2016, 11:11 PM
Wasn't a foul, trying to challenge the shot. I don't blame the player for that. He's straight up, gets jumped into and Beav flops.

But he shouldn't have even challenged it. That's the last thing you do there.


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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-04-2016, 11:11 PM
Sorry guys, that's a gut punch. I'll agree to disagree with sancho, that isn't a foul on that half court buzzer beater attempt. Sunday will be a battle.

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:12 PM
Two blown road wins...aye.

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chrisrenrut
02-04-2016, 11:12 PM
Unbelievable how many boneheaded, unforced errors we had in the last 5 minutes. I do not like how we took the air out of the ball up 10 with 5 minutes left. Our guys tighten up, we lose our offensive flow, and no one wants the ball at the end of the shot clock. They start over-thinking things, and make stupid errors.

Frustrating.

concerned
02-04-2016, 11:15 PM
Worst play of the season.


worst play in the history of basketball.

And Kuzma's in bounds pass was the second worst.

Little basketball IQ.

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:15 PM
Unbelievable how many boneheaded, unforced errors we had in the last 5 minutes. I do not like how we took the air out of the ball up 10 with 5 minutes left. Our guys tighten up, we lose our offensive flow, and no one wants the ball at the end of the shot clock. They start over-thinking things, and make stupid errors.

Frustrating.
Yeah, we aren't good enough to do that. Not enough quality ball handlers or guys that can get their own shot.

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hostile
02-04-2016, 11:19 PM
lol. Worst 8 minutes we've played to end the 2nd half. I don't like trying to run clock at the end; we just get lazy and are too easy to defend.

Diehard Ute
02-04-2016, 11:21 PM
Larry K "Not much leadership from our backcourt"

And said the last 4 minutes we went out and looked like we were point shaving.




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concerned
02-04-2016, 11:25 PM
Right after loveridge gets his big redemption for the Stanford FTs.

Apparently I'm not the only one



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Might have just seen the worst foul in college basketball history. Utah-Oregon State

DrumNFeather
02-04-2016, 11:27 PM
Only played 8 guys tonight. Did the staff just totally whiff on Bealer?

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Rocker Ute
02-05-2016, 07:06 AM
Guess what time I tuned into the game last night?

Seriously, tuned in with 8 minutes to go when the wheels started to come off.


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DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 07:54 AM
Guess what time I tuned into the game last night?

Seriously, tuned in with 8 minutes to go when the wheels started to come off.


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Stayed up and watched it to the bitter (literally) end at 1:30 or so AM Eastern...couldn't go to sleep for at least 45 min. Dragging a bit at the office today.

Mormon Red Death
02-05-2016, 08:18 AM
Stayed up and watched it to the bitter (literally) end at 1:30 or so AM Eastern...couldn't go to sleep for at least 45 min. Dragging a bit at the office today.

I did the same except I picked up some Kava at Target and slept like a baby.

concerned
02-05-2016, 08:28 AM
I know SoCalPat has harped on this for a while, so this question is nothing new, but does it seem like LK's teams have a tendency to snatch defeat from victory a lot more than the reverse? ie., the home meltdown against Oregon (two years ago????)

Boy it seems like a pattern --offense disappears, really dumb turnovers, falling asleep on defense. inability to inbound, head-scratching use of timeouts (not so much last night)

DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 08:39 AM
I know SoCalPat has harped on this for a while, so this question is nothing new, but does it seem like LK's teams have a tendency to snatch defeat from victory a lot more than the reverse? ie., the home meltdown against Oregon (two years ago????)

Boy it seems like a pattern --offense disappears, really dumb turnovers, falling asleep on defense. inability to inbound, head-scratching use of timeouts (not so much last night)

Bonam was also surprisingly a non-factor last night. It's like if one guy steps up, the other guys fade into the background.

Also, add to your list, lazy/terrible passes.

Solon
02-05-2016, 08:54 AM
Wasn't a foul, trying to challenge the shot. I don't blame the player for that. He's straight up, gets jumped into and Beav flops.
I thought Taylor's foul was worse than the foul that sent Loveridge to the line with 2 seconds left. The game was over before those plays, anyway. The collapse had already happened. The Utes deserved to lose this one. Dammit.

UTEopia
02-05-2016, 09:02 AM
We bitch and moan about KW sitting on a lead and it seems to me that is exactly what LK does with a lead in the last 5 minutes. He slows the ball and the players pass up decent looks for taking an extra 10 seconds off the clock. We then end up with either a turnover or a poor shot. I understand that the clock is your friend when you have the lead, but that strategy cost the game last night.

For the record, I thought both foul calls were tough calls, but if you call the foul on the Loveridge shot, you have to call Taylor's foul. I know he was not trying to foul and was trying to defend, but you need to be smarter than that.

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 09:44 AM
It's easy to dog on Taylor, and by no means should he go unscathed. His career will be over with in a few games, probably the same percentage of games Kaelin Clay had left when he dropped the ball against Oregon. Like Clay, Taylor will have his moments going forward where he's instrumental in his team's success, he'll graduate, Ute fans will move on and the feelings we have over Taylor's gaffe will diminish. Moments like last night, Stanford earlier this year and Arizona two years ago will ensure his legacy will always carry some tarnish. But I'm still on medium-high heat over last night, as opposed to hot. This was a once-in-a-generation loss.

But we'll still have Larry. And much like Kyle with Kaelin Clay, our coaches don't learn from catastrophic mistakes and as a result our players aren't prepared accordingly. Clay did against Idaho State what he did against Oregon, and Bonam did against Duke what Taylor did last night. Kyle and Lary are not the only ones guilty of this, which reinforces my stance that coaches, in general, are largely overpaid. Coaches don't take pay cuts, and they get buyouts when they're fired. To balance that out, they deserve tons of heat for when they screw up the obvious. And it's obvious Larry doesn't spend enough time on end-game situations.

We're a hot mess in situations like this, and a lot of it falls on Larry. Look at what's happening prior to the ball being inbounded. Taylor is waving for one player to come up, Bonam is waving for another to get back. That they could be instructing two different players is immaterial -- OSU has FOUR players inside the 3-point arc, including their center, Eubanks (although he flashes up the sideline after the ref hands the OSU player the ball to inbounds). That's enough evidence that we're not on the same page in these kinds of situations, as was the botched inbounds pass from Kuzma. Mind you, that also came after a timeout. Whatever Larry is saying in these timeouts is not getting through to the players and that's totally on him.

There's something about how bad Tinkle is in this situation as well, where he needs a long pass to have anything close to a decent shot, we're not pressuring the inbounder and he's got something set up where we've got 3 guys defending 1 in the frontcourt, but that's for the OSU board to discuss.

As a result, we got what we wanted defensively, and that was for OSU not to complete a long pass. (You could argue we could've defended this better by dropping four and having one player pressure the inbounder). At this point, any Ute in the backcourt should simply run off the court. Bonam does enough and just stands there. He's not getting involved. Taylor gets crossed over, which isn't the worst thing here, but once he does, he has to remove himself from the play. I'm not a results-based thinker, so if OSU makes an uncontested 50-footer, so be it. At this moment in basketball, you can't defend miracles. You can only create them. And it's a damn shame -- Loveridge came through with the most clutch moment of his career (the result of a borderline foul call, which is a miracle in and of itself), and Taylor and Larry collectively took a shit on it.

The officials also fucked up royally on this. Thompson never should have shot 3 free throws, as the clock expired before he shot the ball. Time expired is the exception to a live ball becoming dead when a foul is committed in the act of shooting. There never should have been time added AND a shooting foul awarded. If you're going to put 0.1 on the clock, you're conceding the foul took place before the shot. Now, you can say that Thompson made all three, making it immaterial whether he had 3 shots or a 1-and-1. That still doesn't take Brandon or Larry off the hook, but I'll contend that there's much more pressure on the latte than the former. The officials absolutely have to get this right, and they didn't.

Mormon Red Death
02-05-2016, 10:01 AM
We bitch and moan about KW sitting on a lead and it seems to me that is exactly what LK does with a lead in the last 5 minutes. He slows the ball and the players pass up decent looks for taking an extra 10 seconds off the clock. We then end up with either a turnover or a poor shot. I understand that the clock is your friend when you have the lead, but that strategy cost the game last night.

For the record, I thought both foul calls were tough calls, but if you call the foul on the Loveridge shot, you have to call Taylor's foul. I know he was not trying to foul and was trying to defend, but you need to be smarter than that.

Kyle whittingham is fifty something and 1 when leading at half...

SeattleUte
02-05-2016, 10:09 AM
At this point, any Ute in the backcourt should simply run off the court. Bonam does enough and just stands there. He's not getting involved. Taylor gets crossed over, which isn't the worst thing here, but once he does, he has to remove himself from the play. I'm not a results-based thinker, so if OSU makes an uncontested 50-footer, so be it.


Agree with this totally. If Kodiak does anything in the time out he reminds them of this. Don't even defend a 50-footer. One thing coaches are good for is preventing these types of mental lapses as the players really aren't in their right minds out there--exhausted, full of adrenaline, etc.

SeattleUte
02-05-2016, 10:10 AM
Taylor's mistake is qualitatively different from Clay's. They are not comparable at all.

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 10:24 AM
Taylor's mistake is qualitatively different from Clay's. They are not comparable at all.

Sorry SU, but this is a great example of results-minded thinking. Taylor mistake can ONLY happen when it did. Who throws up a 3-pointer from 50 feet while being closely guarded in the first half? At the same time, what if Clay did his thing in a tie game on the final play, turning a guaranteed win into a guaranteed loss?

Both mistakes are equally catastrophic. When they happened is immaterial.

LA Ute
02-05-2016, 10:26 AM
At this moment in basketball, you can't defend miracles. You can only create them.

A golden pair of sentences. That Taylor tried to defend that shot was astonishing. I was screaming at the TV, "NO! NO! GET AWAY FROM HIM!"

He didn't listen.

You're right, Kodiak has to find a way to coach these guys not to lose their brains during the closing seconds of tight games.


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SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 10:33 AM
I once aspired to work in sports information for a major D-1 program. I'm glad I don't. The whitewashing you have to take on, I couldn't handle it. Example: In the re-written AP story that's posted at utahutes.com, nowhere is Brandon Taylor's name mentioned. Way to omit half of the "Who?" from the game-ending "How?" part of Utah's loss.

DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 10:34 AM
A golden pair of sentences. That Taylor tried to defend that shot was astonishing. I was screaming at the TV, "NO! NO! GET AWAY FROM HIM!"

He didn't listen.

You're right, Kodiak has to find a way to coach these guys not to lose their brains during the closing seconds of tight games.


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There's a lot of basketball left to be played, but there are already quite a few "what ifs" to lay squarely at Larry's feet with regard to this season. Don't get me wrong, he's 100% the right guy for the job and a fantastic coach, but the tactical errors he's made on and off the court this season are starting to pile up.

UtahsMrSports
02-05-2016, 10:50 AM
I will probably get as much flack for this as I get for my "correlation between grandiose commitments and busting" theory, but now that I have had a chance to think about the game with more of a clear head, my only thought right now............I know that we have had a lot of train wrecks in the end of games, but I remember when we had Jim Boylen patrolling our sidelines. Could be worse!

SeattleUte
02-05-2016, 10:51 AM
Sorry SU, but this is a great example of results-minded thinking. Taylor mistake can ONLY happen when it did. Who throws up a 3-pointer from 50 feet while being closely guarded in the first half? At the same time, what if Clay did his thing in a tie game on the final play, turning a guaranteed win into a guaranteed loss?

Both mistakes are equally catastrophic. When they happened is immaterial.

Clay was hot-dogging and cost the team a 14 point lead. It was the next thing to point-shaving. I'm not sure he shouldn't have been cut from the team. Taylor's mistake was made while playing basketball, not being a smart ass outside the game he was playing.

DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 10:53 AM
I will probably get as much flack for this as I get for my "correlation between grandiose commitments and busting" theory, but now that I have had a chance to think about the game with more of a clear head, my only thought right now............I know that we have had a lot of train wrecks in the end of games, but I remember when we had Jim Boylen patrolling our sidelines. Could be worse!

Hence my "let's see if we even get a shot off" comment last night. I still have Boylen PTSD when we would swing it around the horn and back and back again and throw up a buzzer beater that would land somewhere between the side of the backboard and the shot clock.

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 10:54 AM
I will probably get as much flack for this as I get for my "correlation between grandiose commitments and busting" theory, but now that I have had a chance to think about the game with more of a clear head, my only thought right now............I know that we have had a lot of train wrecks in the end of games, but I remember when we had Jim Boylen patrolling our sidelines. Could be worse!

Boylen never lost a game at Utah like we did last night. You can't pick at old scabs and then tell us it feels great.

Rocker Ute
02-05-2016, 10:54 AM
At this moment in basketball, you can't defend miracles. You can only create them.

That sums it all up and should be said to every player in this situation and tattooed on a coach's forehead. Reminds me of learning from one of the best salesman I have ever met. He said, "Once someone agrees with you, stop talking about it, from that point on your only option left is to talk them back out of what they just agreed to."

Same notion, let them huck up a miracle... if it happens then we just shake our heads and move on.

I'm not pissed at Taylor, lots of pros make mistakes and we shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. I just hope it doesn't get to his head.

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 11:09 AM
Hence my "let's see if we even get a shot off" comment last night. I still have Boylen PTSD when we would swing it around the horn and back and back again and throw up a buzzer beater that would land somewhere between the side of the backboard and the shot clock.

You might have PTSD, but it didn't come from our records late in close games under Jimmy, who was 12-13 at Utah in games decided by 3 points or less, or in OT.

Larry's record, minus the 5-win season, is 6-15. He was 3-1 in his first year, so if you want to say he's 9-16, that's fine. (That also includes a 3-point win against San Diego Christian College, but omits an exhibition 1-point loss to Adams State. I think the 6-15 mark is more reflective of this discussion).

Diehard Ute
02-05-2016, 11:15 AM
While there's obviously an issue I have to wonder if some of that issue this year isn't simply Brandon.

Larry said, only after being asked by Goon, that he expressly told the players to not get near them.

Bonam's foul came from a new player. I can see that being a new guy just playing hard. Brandon has repeatedly made errors like this all season.

As Larry said we didn't get any leadership from our backcourt in the last 5 minutes. But it's his job to figure out why what he's preaching isn't registering. (Riley asked him what had to change and he said that would come after he sleeps on it)


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SeattleUte
02-05-2016, 11:16 AM
Also, SCP, you will never convince me that Clay didn't cost us the Oregon game with that stunt.

LA Ute
02-05-2016, 11:18 AM
In our loss to Oregon last year, I remember wishing someone had tried to slow down Joe Young instead of letting him get an uncontested, long look. Defense is still necessary on these heaves, but you can't cross the line.

Yep. Maybe a hand in the face or just making an obstacle of yourself (far enough away that the ball handler can't fall into you). But trying to block the 50-foot shot? From the side? That's crossing the line.

Diehard Ute
02-05-2016, 11:20 AM
Yep. Maybe a hand in the face or just making an obstacle of yourself (far enough away that the ball handler can't fall into you). But trying to block the 50-foot shot? From the side? That's crossing the line.

OSU's player told the media he saw Brandon jump first to he threw himself into him as he knew the refs were looking for contact.

All the more reason to be nowhere near him.


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SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 11:21 AM
Also, SCP, you will never convince me that Clay didn't cost us the Oregon game with that stunt.

Obviously, it didn't help. It was a massive psychological letdown and played a big part in us falling behind like we did afterward. While we did come back to get within 3, it sapped us just go get to that point. If Oregon didn't have Marcus Mariota, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. To say Clay cost us a victory is to diminish Mariota's talents, and he did win a Heisman and is arguably the greatest college QB of the last 20 years not named Tim Tebow. I'm not going over that line.

UtahsMrSports
02-05-2016, 11:25 AM
Boylen never lost a game at Utah like we did last night. You can't pick at old scabs and then tell us it feels great.

Lol. And Larry has never lost to the college of pokemon fan club, tiddlywinks university, or the cooking baking academy. (With a roster of his creating anyway).

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 11:31 AM
Lol. And Larry has never lost to the college of pokemon fan club, tiddlywinks university, or the cooking baking academy. (With a roster of his creating anyway).

You're changing the goalposts, which is to be expected of those who try and rewrite history. You're also obviously forgetting Cal State-Sacramento and Cal-State Northridge.

UtahsMrSports
02-05-2016, 11:36 AM
You're changing the goalposts, which is to be expected of those who try and rewrite history. You're also obviously forgetting Cal State-Sacramento and Cal-State Northridge.

Having been at both, ill never forget either. I admit that your criticism of Larry is fair and accurate. I acknowledged as much in my original post. I just choose to remember that it used to be much worse on the Hill. Thats hardly rewriting history (perhaps you are the one who is forgetting the losses to southwest baptist or idaho state with a senior laden team......). Things were awful under Boylen.
If you want to join Hoyo and JazzyUte at the "Now we'll never get to the tournament! Fire everyone! This season has been awful!!!" pity party, then go ahead. Im just offering some perspective.

DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 11:41 AM
Having been at both, ill never forget either. I admit that your criticism of Larry is fair and accurate. I acknowledged as much in my original post. I just choose to remember that it used to be much worse on the Hill. Thats hardly rewriting history (perhaps you are the one who is forgetting the losses to southwest baptist or idaho state with a senior laden team......). Things were awful under Boylen.
If you want to join Hoyo and JazzyUte at the "Now we'll never get to the tournament! Fire everyone! This season has been awful!!!" pity party, then go ahead. Im just offering some perspective.

We could very likely go 0-3 on the road to finish the season and we'll still comfortably be in the dance. RPI baby!

Rocker Ute
02-05-2016, 11:47 AM
I know it is many coaches philosophies to get ahead and then slow down and hold onto a lead. In some ways it is hard to argue with the success of it, but also tough to make any real comparison.

I think both Ute teams run into problems doing this at times though. But here is where the flaw lies.

If you've got a rhythm and momentum don't stop. If that momentum gets disrupted then maybe consider slowing down the game and managing the clock. I don't think that Whit or Kodiak wait for that, and then they completely disrupt the flow and we find ourselves either in the mess we were in last night or winning by the skin of our nose.

But that is why I only get paid $10k a month to post here and not the millions our coaches make.

As for the Kaelin Clay debate, I'll just say that we play enough games in b-ball that this doesn't even register on the same scale that the Oregon game does (presuming Clays fumble really did ultimately cost us that game - a big presumption).

We'll move on and hopefully get another shot at OSU.


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SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 12:08 PM
Having been at both, ill never forget either. I admit that your criticism of Larry is fair and accurate. I acknowledged as much in my original post. I just choose to remember that it used to be much worse on the Hill. Thats hardly rewriting history (perhaps you are the one who is forgetting the losses to southwest baptist or idaho state with a senior laden team......). Things were awful under Boylen.
If you want to join Hoyo and JazzyUte at the "Now we'll never get to the tournament! Fire everyone! This season has been awful!!!" pity party, then go ahead. Im just offering some perspective.

No doubt things were awful under Boylen. Which is why it shouldn't be difficult to focus on what truly was bad five years after the fact, instead of making false narratives as they relate to today. The only time I remember Boylen is when someone reminds me of him. I don't get why people keep circling back to him. (BTW, even with the losses you mentioned, we still made the tournament that year, shared a MWC regular season title and won it all in Vegas).

Boylen did about what one could expect in close games, and that's finish at or very near .500. A lot of those games are coin-flip affairs, and they even out. Take a look at our two games against Gonzaga while Jimmy was there.

Larry being so far under .500 is an indictment of his process.

I follow on Twitter and am friends with Dave and Sean, and neither of them are saying anything close to what you're claiming they are.

concerned
02-05-2016, 12:24 PM
I follow on Twitter and am friends with Dave and Sean, and neither of them are saying anything close to what you're claiming they are.

So Mr. C and jazzy Ute are still alive? They survived their blogs? Imagine that.

UtahsMrSports
02-05-2016, 12:25 PM
We could very likely go 0-3 on the road to finish the season and we'll still comfortably be in the dance. RPI baby!

Yep. hahaha, as much as I hate the RPI, it is doing us some favors this year.

UtahsMrSports
02-05-2016, 12:33 PM
No doubt things were awful under Boylen. Which is why it shouldn't be difficult to focus on what truly was bad five years after the fact, instead of making false narratives as they relate to today. The only time I remember Boylen is when someone reminds me of him. I don't get why people keep circling back to him. (BTW, even with the losses you mentioned, we still made the tournament that year, shared a MWC regular season title and won it all in Vegas).

Boylen did about what one could expect in close games, and that's finish at or very near .500. A lot of those games are coin-flip affairs, and they even out. Take a look at our two games against Gonzaga while Jimmy was there.

Larry being so far under .500 is an indictment of his process.

I follow on Twitter and am friends with Dave and Sean, and neither of them are saying anything close to what you're claiming they are.

Thats funny, because the comments that I attributed to them are a slightly exaggerated version of what each of them said just a couple of short weeks ago. I blocked both at that time and just assumed the narrative would continue. I mean, its not like I have years and years of their narrative to go on........

At any rate, my comment was rather benign and just for some perspective. Probably best for me to move on now...........

DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 12:34 PM
Here's a telling quote from Larry:


"We just didn't look like a team that has their sights set on a championship the way that we handled poise in the last 4-minute segment," Krystkowiak told ESPN 700. "I was really pleased with a majority of the game and then all of the sudden it was like an out-of-body experience and (they) started chucking it all over the place. We didn't have much leadership from the back court."

U-Ute
02-05-2016, 01:00 PM
Boylen never lost a game at Utah like we did last night. You can't pick at old scabs and then tell us it feels great.

We weren't good enough to be in a position to lose a game in that fashion.

Rocker Ute
02-05-2016, 01:10 PM
we weren't good enough to be in a position to lose a game in that fashion.


lol

UTEopia
02-05-2016, 01:11 PM
There must be some analytics somewhere that can tell us what we do do in the last 4-5 minutes of games when we are trying to protect a lead. My sense is that we pass up decent shots to run a few extra seconds and then end up with a turnover or a bad shot. Looking at the last 5 minutes last night there were 5 turnovers, 3 missed shots, 1 made 3 pointer by Brandon and 3 made FT's by Jordan. Can't win like that.

UBlender
02-05-2016, 01:14 PM
You might have PTSD, but it didn't come from our records late in close games under Jimmy, who was 12-13 at Utah in games decided by 3 points or less, or in OT.

Larry's record, minus the 5-win season, is 6-15. He was 3-1 in his first year, so if you want to say he's 9-16, that's fine. (That also includes a 3-point win against San Diego Christian College, but omits an exhibition 1-point loss to Adams State. I think the 6-15 mark is more reflective of this discussion).

That's funny, that Adams State game was one of the first I thought of when reflecting on the pain of losing a game in the most excruciating game possible. If you recall, Utah took a timeout it didn't have in the waning seconds of that game that basically sealed it for Adams State. Of course, it was an exhibition and a Utah team that we all knew was going to be spectacularly awful so it doesn't compare to losing a key conference game, but still....Utah has really found some creative ways to hand games over during the Larry era.

chrisrenrut
02-05-2016, 01:16 PM
There must be some analytics somewhere that can tell us what we do do in the last 4-5 minutes of games when we are trying to protect a lead. My sense is that we pass up decent shots to run a few extra seconds and then end up with a turnover or a bad shot. Looking at the last 5 minutes last night there were 5 turnovers, 3 missed shots, 1 made 3 pointer by Brandon and 3 made FT's by Jordan. Can't win like that.

In the last 5 minutes of the game last night, we didn't even look to get a shot until under 10 seconds in the shot clock. We don't even have the opportunity to pass up better shot opportunities. I understand coaches wanting to play the percentages, but I think they need to understand what the change in game flow does psychologically to the players.

LA Ute
02-05-2016, 01:35 PM
If Larry has a weakness, it's this end-of-game problem. There's now too much of a pattern to dismiss it.


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Rocker Ute
02-05-2016, 01:56 PM
I know the solution... Blow everybody out.


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DrumNFeather
02-05-2016, 02:05 PM
I know the solution... Blow everybody out.


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Kerry Rupp was over on the other sideline thinking..."I should still be the coach there!"

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 04:14 PM
Here's a telling quote from Larry:

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Larry needs to look in the mirror sometimes. Now, I'm away from the replay and typing this from memory, but what on god's green earth do we have three guys lined up at the line to rebound for Thompson's FTs? A miss of any kind, and the clock runs out. Now, by no means do I expect a coach to have a sure-fire play drawn up to go the length of the floor in 0.1 seconds, but this is where creating the miracle comes into play. You put four guys within 10 feet of the goal, you have one guy back to inbounds the ball (because grabbing a rebound here is worthless at this point), you chuck it 90 feet and hope you get lucky. You can get a wild deflection. You can get a foul equally as dumb as Taylor's. You can have OSU FanBoy storm the court before the inbounds, thinking the game is over, and get a technical foul. But you'll never know if any of those things would've happened if you do what Utah did during and after Thompson's FTs.

SoCalPat
02-05-2016, 04:58 PM
It was the 4th foul on Poeltl that killed our momentum. We stalled because we were trying to get him back into the game. Now, when he did get back into the game, we didn't go to him, and I don't know why.

OSU was +13 with Jarmal Reid in the game, +10 if you count for the fact that he was subbed out after Taylor's foul and before Thompson's FTs (EDIT: And +16 if not for the marginal foul he committed on Loveridge's 3). He was a huge difference maker last night.

LA Ute
02-06-2016, 06:11 PM
Not to bag on Taylor but I wanted to see what happened, since I turned off the TV Thursday night as soon as the game ended and didn't see any replays. Go to 2:30 on the clip:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=165&v=upEN6ul8u-w

I just don't see any explanation for Taylor's foul. Yes, he did get turned around in the beginning (because he wasn't facing Thompson Jr. squarely) but then he went in for the block. His brain switched off, I guess.

Jarid in Cedar
02-06-2016, 07:45 PM
The game turned on Poeltl's third foul at the 12 minute mark. We were starting to take control at that point, and even though we were able to tread water for the 3 minutes he was on the bench, that bad foul led to his 4th foul with too much time in the game. Eliminate the 3rd foul on his missed free throw, and I think we would have won by 10.

We are not good enough to survive Jakob being in foul trouble late in the game.

LA Ute
02-07-2016, 07:46 AM
Goon this morning on the Oregon game today:


Watch Out For Composure. Brandon Taylor is coming off a mistake he'll remember for a long time. Does he shake it off? Does the team shake it off? Do the Utes allow blame to consume them for another game? Or are they truly over it? They've said the right things so far, but ultimately their play will be the ultimate judge of whether Utah is ready to move on.

http://www.sltrib.com/blogs/uofusports/3510408-155/utah-basketball-game-guide-utes-have

Solon
02-07-2016, 01:33 PM
Oregon on the road is a tough one. A win would be tremendous, but even a moral victory would be alright tonight.


This is pretty much exactly what I thought before the football game last fall.
I would love another road surprise.

LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:06 PM
Ugh. Tough to look at Oregon's 19-4 and 8-2 record and realize we'd have the same record but for the Stanford and OSU games.


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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 02:24 PM
Lousy call on Poeltl there. Boucher clobbered him.
Yeah...and a T on K on top of it. Let's see if the Ducks go on a run.

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:26 PM
I hope we get a good make-up call for that terrible 2nd foul on JakPot.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:26 PM
Now we need to stop Oregon at a 6-0 run. And Tucker does it!


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:30 PM
Wow. JL has a pull-up jumper.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:31 PM
I'd take it, but how do you make up for putting Poeltl on the bench for 25% of the game? You'd have to throw out 2-3 Ducks to make up for that.

Yes. That's what I am hoping for.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:35 PM
This is a good game for JL to get hot.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:40 PM
Announcers sure like Oregon.

Did Brandon really think he was going to get that shot off?


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Dwight Schr-Ute
02-07-2016, 02:42 PM
I want to see more of Taylor taking it right at Bell. Good stuff there


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Dwight Schr-Ute
02-07-2016, 02:46 PM
It's amazing how good we've been at throwing the ball out of bounds. A couple of close calls on top of the turnovers.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:47 PM
Interesting rotation right now. Reyes and Wright both in, Chapman too. Three of our most mistake-prone players. Not surprisingly, an 11-2 run by the Ducks.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:50 PM
Watching the Utes try to set up a last-second shot is an exquisite experience, matched only by watching Brandon get yet another shot blocked in the paint by a defender over a foot taller than he is.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 02:52 PM
Wouldn't be a Utah game without that. It's our signature move.

Yes. The pass is skillfully thrown in such a way that no one on either team can touch it.


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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 02:52 PM
Watching the Utes try to set up a last-second shot is an exquisite experience, matched only by watching Brandon get yet another shot blocked in the paint by a defender over a foot taller than he is.


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I thought Larry might have conceded the game there with that end of half lineup. Yowsa!

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:03 PM
By the way, I applaud Larry getting T'd up. It may have helped.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:07 PM
Looks like this one is getting away from us. By the way, what on earth is wrong with Taylor? Another unforced error?

DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 03:07 PM
Man we throw it away a lot.

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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 03:09 PM
By the way, I applaud Larry getting T'd up. It may have helped.


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I believe this is the crew that has T'd up Hurley twice.

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:10 PM
Man we throw it away a lot.

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I think our guards are just not talented enough. Hoping the incoming guys next year will be upgrades.


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Dwight Schr-Ute
02-07-2016, 03:11 PM
Wow. Poeltl's back on the '15 foul sensitivity regime.


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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 03:19 PM
Boucher sure gets to use his body more defensively than Poeltl does.

Now we're down 11. Time to see what we're made of.
He's 6'10 205...Mawien is 6'8 210. I understand that you want to red shirt him and help out some weight on that frame, but man could we use some size and 5 fouls behind Poetel.

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:21 PM
Brooks is becoming easy to dislike.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:22 PM
I think the Reyes "oops" TO belongs on the season lowlight reel.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:22 PM
Wow. Even Bealer is in now.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:25 PM
So...lets start cheering for a moral victory. Is less than a 10-point margin a moral victory? Or do we need to beat the spread?


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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 03:26 PM
Wow. Even Bealer is in now.


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I'm willing to see what he has.

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:41 PM
Jakob's foul trouble is the story of this game. The wheels started to come off when he went out in the first half.


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Mormon Red Death
02-07-2016, 03:41 PM
Brooks pac12 player of the year?

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:42 PM
Brooks pac12 player of the year?

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I'd say he's in the top 3. In head to head games he has the edge over Jakob.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:43 PM
We look so hapless out there.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:51 PM
Brooks.


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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 03:52 PM
Well, we have a 10-point margin. Can we break it? Nope.


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DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 04:03 PM
Brooks pac12 player of the year?

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If Washington finishes in the top half of the league, I can see them giving it to Andrews. Jakob has no shot, IMO.

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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-07-2016, 09:13 PM
Brooks was a monster again. He was a good frost last year, but the jump he's made this year has been unbelievable. I'm officially worried he's going to leave after this year. He plays an NBA game.

DrumNFeather
02-07-2016, 09:47 PM
Brooks was a monster again. He was a good frost last year, but the jump he's made this year has been unbelievable. I'm officially worried he's going to leave after this year. He plays an NBA game.
I wouldn't mind seeing him go...

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LA Ute
02-07-2016, 10:41 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing him go...

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I think he'd better go. It's really in the young man's best interests. 😉


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SoCalPat
02-08-2016, 09:39 AM
Brandon Taylor just had the worst road trip of any player in Utah history. And this was the worst game ever for a Utah backcourt. 58 minutes between Bonam, Taylor and Wright, and they shoot 0 for 6 with 5 assists and 5 turnovers. No rebounds, no fouls. There are above average HS guards who could not have done any worse. I still cannot get over how Taylor has regressed. He was miles ahead better as a freshman when he shared minutes with Jared Dubois. He is the sole reason our record isn't better than it is.

Very puzzled as to how Taylor gets 34 minutes in a game like this, but Wright and Bealer eat into Bonam's. The 31 minutes for Dakari had to be a career-high. He's been our third-best player in league play. Kuzma should get strong notice for most improved player. Brooks is amazing, though. Kuzma and Chapman combine to go 11 for 19 with 24 points and 7 rebounds. Brooks easily surpassed that on his own.

Utebiquitous
02-08-2016, 09:56 AM
I think Bonham will be a very good guard for us next year. We're seeing the typical up and down year for a transfer or first year player at this level. At least I give Bonham that pass. Taylor and Wright are extreme frustrations at this point.

We had better help Brooks get an agent. We don't have anyone who can guard him this year and I don't see who guards him next year. While he's a terrific player, it's very frustrating to see Coach K ignore improving the three spot on this team. We all know Loveridge is a horrendous defender. Perhaps they were hoping to give Ogbe more minutes there but he's a tweener (2/3) just like Chapman is a tweener (4/3).

Utebiquitous
02-08-2016, 02:03 PM
Kuzma and Chapman were recruited as 4s. I believe Chapman could become a 3 so perhaps some effort will happen there. I agree that Bealer was supposed to fit that bill.

The reason I'm critical is that I don't see a player or two who are lock down defenders. It can certainly be learned but I'd love to see it recruited and/or spelled out to the player. Defensive toughness seems to be part of the Coach K culture that is slipping away after being so important the first few years. I think about how well Brandon defended last season - both guards and forwards by the way. His defensive struggles have bothered me more than his more visible gaffes.

Anyway, I'll grant you Bealer but I worry that the Utes are not intentionally recruiting a defensive guy or two who can guard up and down a roster. Easier said than done but we really aren't close to being a strong defensive team this year - at least not yet.

Dwight Schr-Ute
02-08-2016, 04:57 PM
An interesting graphic.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160208/99843a3106fed5a5d76d5d126e9e6411.jpg


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chrisrenrut
02-08-2016, 05:06 PM
An interesting graphic.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160208/99843a3106fed5a5d76d5d126e9e6411.jpg


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Funny they would leave out rebounds for a center. 8.8 so far this year for Jakob, 12.2 that year for Andrew.

justaute
02-08-2016, 05:08 PM
Yup...my point and concern. If you don't learn by jr/sr years, then it becomes very challenging.

""We've got guys on our team who play really hard, but they don't play smart. And we've got really intelligent players that maybe don't play hard enough," he said. "You've got to put it all together."" -- Larry Kryskowiak

http://www.sltrib.com/sports/3514031-155/utah-basketball-mental-mistakes-leave-utes?fullpage=1

SeattleUte
02-08-2016, 11:21 PM
Brandon Taylor just had the worst road trip of any player in Utah history. And this was the worst game ever for a Utah backcourt. 58 minutes between Bonam, Taylor and Wright, and they shoot 0 for 6 with 5 assists and 5 turnovers. No rebounds, no fouls. There are above average HS guards who could not have done any worse. I still cannot get over how Taylor has regressed. He was miles ahead better as a freshman when he shared minutes with Jared Dubois. He is the sole reason our record isn't better than it is.

Yeah, the fact that he's worse than he was as a freshman really indicates that it isn't just that he's not playing opposite Delon any more.

concerned
02-09-2016, 08:13 AM
The reason I'm critical is that I don't see a player or two who are lock down defenders.

We don't have a lock-down defender or a go-to scorer. If I had to pick one or the other, I would much rather have the scorer this year, if not every year.

Bill Riley tweeted out last night that Buddy Hield almost came to Utah and flipped to Oklahoma at the last minute. Damn.

SoCalPat
02-09-2016, 01:29 PM
Yeah, the fact that he's worse than he was as a freshman really indicates that it isn't just that he's not playing opposite Delon any more.

Delon wasn't on the team when Brandon was a freshman.

concerned
02-09-2016, 01:32 PM
Delon wasn't on the team when Brandon was a freshman.

i think that was his point--he has regressed even from his freshman year, so the absence of Delon cant be the only reason, or maybe a reason at all.

SoCalPat
02-09-2016, 01:32 PM
Funny they would leave out rebounds for a center. 8.8 so far this year for Jakob, 12.2 that year for Andrew.

Just another example of how fans and/or athletic departments will do anything to boost the image of today's players, even if it means taking down one of their own past greats. I think Poeltl is a great player and a future top-10 pick. If he can avoid injuries, he'll likely have a better NBA career than Bogut. But Bogut was a monster rebounder from Day 1, and we've never been able to say that about Jakob. Omitting rebounds from this comparison is disingenuous.

SoCalPat
02-09-2016, 01:33 PM
i think that was his point--he has regressed even from his freshman year, so the absence of Delon cant be the only reason, or maybe a reason at all.

What missing a word in a sentence will do to the meaning of it. You're right -- I get SU's point now.

LA Ute
02-09-2016, 02:07 PM
Just another example of how fans and/or athletic departments will do anything to boost the image of today's players, even if it means taking down one of their own past greats. I think Poeltl is a great player and a future top-10 pick. If he can avoid injuries, he'll likely have a better NBA career than Bogut. But Bogut was a monster rebounder from Day 1, and we've never been able to say that about Jakob. Omitting rebounds from this comparison is disingenuous.

Bogut was much stronger than Poeltl is, and had more bulk, even as a freshman. Seems to me that is his biggest deficiency. He needs to eat a few more sandwiches and spend a few more months in the weight room (so does Chapman, as long as I am on the subject).

concerned
02-09-2016, 02:10 PM
Bogut was much stronger than Poeltl is, and had more bulk, even as a freshman. Seems to me that is his biggest deficiency. He needs to eat a few more sandwiches and spend a few more months in the weight room (so does Chapman, as long as I am on the subject).

IMHO, he really needs to work on that 8-10 foot jumper from around the elbow that Doleac mastered.

Irving Washington
02-09-2016, 03:55 PM
IMHO, he really needs to work on that 8-10 foot jumper from around the elbow that Doleac mastered.

I think the large majority of college basketball players could work on a midrange jumper. A lost art.

311ute
02-09-2016, 04:06 PM
The biggest difficulty in comparing Poeltl/Bogut is the difference in competition. Imagine Poeltl going against Air Force, CSU, Wyo, etc (04/05 MWC was weak).

SoCalPat
02-09-2016, 04:51 PM
The biggest difficulty in comparing Poeltl/Bogut is the difference in competition. Imagine Poeltl going against Air Force, CSU, Wyo, etc (04/05 MWC was weak).

Bogut had 20 and 10 (albeit with 6 turnovers) on 8 of 10 shooting against an Arizona team that was one epic collapse against eventual runner-up Illinois from going to the Elite 8.

He had 23 and 12 against Washington, which made the Sweet 16. 24 and 17 against LSU, which also made the Dance.

Bogut showed up against everyone. He was the MVP of the FIBA Junior World Championships before coming to Utah. If anything, the competition angle would look on Bogut even more favorably, as he would have played in more meaningful minutes in the Pac 12 than Poeltl would have in the MWC.

SoCalPat
02-09-2016, 04:57 PM
The only time I got to see him in person. Brandon Bass and Big Baby Davis had no answer.

That LSU team went to the Final Four the following year, too.

Yeah, the idea that Bogut fattened his numbers up against overmatched MWC players is silly.

311ute
02-10-2016, 09:20 AM
That LSU team went to the Final Four the following year, too.

Yeah, the idea that Bogut fattened his numbers up against overmatched MWC players is silly.

I'm not trying to discredit anything Bogut did, he was great, no question. Deserving of all the POY and AA honors he received. But the idea that Poeltl's numbers wouldn't be better playing against a very weak MWC is silly. And it's not like Bogut's numbers were hurt by "not playing meaningful minutes" as you said in your earlier post; he averaged 35 mpg.

LA Ute
02-10-2016, 09:23 AM
Just looking at the statistics for that OSU game. We had 12 turnovers in the whole game, with seven of them occurring in the final seven minutes. Epic.


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UtahsMrSports
02-10-2016, 09:31 AM
I think the large majority of college basketball players could work on a midrange jumper. A lost art.

Analytics has killed the midrange jumper, and it probably wont come back anytime soon. You take it if its open, obviously. But the numbers overwhelmingly say that you shoot at the rim, or you shoot behind the line for maximum efficiency.

LA Ute
02-10-2016, 09:37 AM
Analytics has killed the midrange jumper, and it probably wont come back anytime soon. You take it if its open, obviously. But the numbers overwhelmingly say that you shoot at the rim, or you shoot behind the line for maximum efficiency.

I think a mid range jumper would open up the space under the basket. If defenders had to respect that shot from a Utah player, that would leave more room for Jakob and others to pass iinside, something which they are very good at already.


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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-10-2016, 09:39 AM
Analytics has killed the midrange jumper, and it probably wont come back anytime soon. You take it if its open, obviously. But the numbers overwhelmingly say that you shoot at the rim, or you shoot behind the line for maximum efficiency.

I hope this isn't an anti-analytics post or prepare for the wrath of mpfunk to descend upon you!

Two Utes
02-10-2016, 09:47 AM
Analytics has killed the midrange jumper, and it probably wont come back anytime soon. You take it if its open, obviously. But the numbers overwhelmingly say that you shoot at the rim, or you shoot behind the line for maximum efficiency.

The mid range jumper is a low percentage shot. I cringe when a kid takes a shot barely in front of the three point line--particularly when there is time left on the shot clock. It's just a bad shot. Yet, players do it all the time still.

UtahsMrSports
02-10-2016, 10:19 AM
I love analytics. They are not the ultimate authority, but they do share some insights. I also think you can overthink things- I once heard Jazz radio voice David Locke enthusiastically question a Jazz player's game preparation because he had taken a three from the left side and David's numbers CLEARLY showed that this player shot better from the right side when there was less than four minutes left in the half and the Jazz were leading by more than 5 points. At that point, you are just trying to sound cool, and you long ago left any valid statistical analysis.

One thing that is practically indisputable.........a midrange jumper is generally one of the worst shots you can take. Now before this turns into another "grandiose announcement and bust potential" discussions, let me say that an open midrange jumper is never a bad shot. Heck, Gordon Hayward won a game for the Jazz last night with a midrange J. It is far, far better to stretch the floor further and take the three. The pure analytics folks will tell you that to maximize your likelihood of winning, you should only shoot threes or at the rim. While I generally agree, I also like LA's point that a nice open midrange jumper can and should be taken when its open.

Two Utes
02-10-2016, 10:29 AM
I love analytics. They are not the ultimate authority, but they do share some insights. I also think you can overthink things- I once heard Jazz radio voice David Locke enthusiastically question a Jazz player's game preparation because he had taken a three from the left side and David's numbers CLEARLY showed that this player shot better from the right side when there was less than four minutes left in the half and the Jazz were leading by more than 5 points. At that point, you are just trying to sound cool, and you long ago left any valid statistical analysis.

One thing that is practically indisputable.........a midrange jumper is generally one of the worst shots you can take. Now before this turns into another "grandiose announcement and bust potential" discussions, let me say that an open midrange jumper is never a bad shot. Heck, Gordon Hayward won a game for the Jazz last night with a midrange J. It is far, far better to stretch the floor further and take the three. The pure analytics folks will tell you that to maximize your likelihood of winning, you should only shoot threes or at the rim. While I generally agree, I also like LA's point that a nice open midrange jumper can and should be taken when its open.


Love LA but his point is not a good one. If he wants more spacing, then that jumper needs to be behind the three point line. If you have an open foul shot jumper you should take it. If you have a 5 foot open look you should take it, but to suggest that we would have more space if we took more mid range jumpers is not true. Our shooting percentage would just go down.

But yeah, if you have a mid range jumper to win the game in overtime, you need to take it.

LA Ute
02-10-2016, 10:44 AM
Love LA but his point is not a good one. If he wants more spacing, then that jumper needs to be behind the three point line. If you have an open foul shot jumper you should take it. If you have a 5 foot open look you should take it, but to suggest that we would have more space if we took more mid range jumpers is not true. Our shooting percentage would just go down.

But yeah, if you have a mid range jumper to win the game in overtime, you need to take it.

Well, all right then!

SoCalPat
02-10-2016, 01:56 PM
I am all for Division I and the NBA to abolish the 3-point shot in alternating years. The 3-point shot should be part of the game, but if we're interested in developing all-around talent and increasing the quality of basketball, this is probably the only way to accomplish that. The way the game is trending is the absolute right way to play -- the numbers bear it out. But with it, comes a lot of collateral damage, especially in the growth stage of the individual player.

Rocker Ute
02-10-2016, 02:17 PM
Bogut had 20 and 10 (albeit with 6 turnovers) on 8 of 10 shooting against an Arizona team that was one epic collapse against eventual runner-up Illinois from going to the Elite 8.

He had 23 and 12 against Washington, which made the Sweet 16. 24 and 17 against LSU, which also made the Dance.

Bogut showed up against everyone. He was the MVP of the FIBA Junior World Championships before coming to Utah. If anything, the competition angle would look on Bogut even more favorably, as he would have played in more meaningful minutes in the Pac 12 than Poeltl would have in the MWC.

I agree. Obviously this is a silly though exercise, but take Andrew Bogut at Utah vs Poeltl right now and play them and think of who would win? Bogut, you can simply see it. That is no slight of Poeltl by the way, it is just that Bogut was that good.

I'll refrain from the, "If Bogut had a decent coach we would have been to the..." speak that I like to get into.

SoCalPat
02-10-2016, 03:03 PM
I agree. Obviously this is a silly though exercise, but take Andrew Bogut at Utah vs Poeltl right now and play them and think of who would win? Bogut, you can simply see it. That is no slight of Poeltl by the way, it is just that Bogut was that good.

I'll refrain from the, "If Bogut had a decent coach we would have been to the..." speak that I like to get into.

Well, Majerus was 0-5 against Kentucky. But outside of Rajon Rondo, there's very little on that Kentucky roster in 2005 in terms of NBA ability and longevity. You might have a point.

Mormon Red Death
02-10-2016, 06:04 PM
Bogut was amazing, but he was surrounded by average. A one man team can only go so far, even if the one man is pretty good. We are about to witness this fact again in March.

Give that team a better coach and let it play 100 tournaments, and I think sweet 16 is the most common outcome.
I maintain that mark Jackson was the most underrated player in Utah basketball history. Markson was better than any of our current 3s

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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-10-2016, 07:32 PM
I maintain that mark Jackson was the most underrated player in Utah basketball history. Markson was better than any of our current 3s

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Since this is the Oregon thread, I still hate Jackson for the ridiculous 3 he hit to eliminate Luke Ridnour from his final NCAA game. I've never before or since seen a shot he the front of the rim dead on and bounce in like that. :angry:

DrumNFeather
02-10-2016, 08:48 PM
Since this is the Oregon thread, I still hate Jackson for the ridiculous 3 he hit to eliminate Luke Ridnour from his final NCAA game. I've never before or since seen a shot he the front of the rim dead on and bounce in like that. :angry:
That game was a defensive masterpiece by Majerus. Held the Ducks to 58 when they came in averaging 82.

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HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-10-2016, 08:50 PM
That game was a defensive masterpiece by Majerus. Held the Ducks to 58 when they came in averaging 82.

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Yes the Luke to Luke show could never get running that game. Really frustrating. I need some kind of professional help, I still feel frustrated from a basketball game that happened 13 years ago.

chrisrenrut
02-10-2016, 09:25 PM
Who else is in contention?

Jon Hansen, McKay McGrath, and Chaz Menotti.

Solon
02-10-2016, 09:33 PM
I maintain that mark Jackson was the most underrated player in Utah basketball history. Markson was better than any of our current 3s

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Marc had a lot of talent. He was a pretty good football player too, IIRC. Really well coached.

UBlender
02-10-2016, 10:17 PM
Yes the Luke to Luke show could never get running that game. Really frustrating. I need some kind of professional help, I still feel frustrated from a basketball game that happened 13 years ago.

Wasn't that the game where Swoop and the Duck got into a fight, like a real mascots-knocking-each-other's-giant-plush-heads-off fight?

HuskyFreeNorthwest
02-10-2016, 10:38 PM
Wasn't that the game where Swoop and the Duck got into a fight, like a real mascots-knocking-each-other's-giant-plush-heads-off fight?

Yes, https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=20030322&id=N1RWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_-sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2679,5082773&hl=en

Rocker Ute
02-11-2016, 05:02 AM
Bogut was amazing, but he was surrounded by average. A one man team can only go so far, even if the one man is pretty good. We are about to witness this fact again in March.

Give that team a better coach and let it play 100 tournaments, and I think sweet 16 is the most common outcome.

He was surrounded by untapped talent. Jackson was already mentioned but there was also one of the more highly touted recruiting classes of Drisdom, Markson and Chaney along with Justin Hawkins around Bogut. Plus the comedic bonus of Jonas Langvad.

But I promised I wasn't going to get into this sort of talk... I just wanted to say Bogut was great.


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SoCalPat
02-11-2016, 08:33 PM
He was surrounded by untapped talent. Jackson was already mentioned but there was also one of the more highly touted recruiting classes of Drisdom, Markson and Chaney along with Justin Hawkins around Bogut. Plus the comedic bonus of Jonas Langvad.

But I promised I wasn't going to get into this sort of talk... I just wanted to say Bogut was great.


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Langvad will always hold a fond spot in my heart for this game ... http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2004-2005/ut-wy.html

Wyoming is celebrating 100 years of hoops -- and we open the game on a 16-0 run and Wyoming goes the first 11 minutes without a FG. It was the worst home loss for Wyoming in nearly 50 years, and has only been surpassed recently by a 28-point loss to UNLV under Heath Schroyer. If not for a 7-0 Wyoming run in the final minute, it would remain to date the worst loss for Wyoming since WWI.

Rocker Ute
02-11-2016, 09:33 PM
Langvad will always hold a fond spot in my heart for this game ... http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2004-2005/ut-wy.html

Wyoming is celebrating 100 years of hoops -- and we open the game on a 16-0 run and Wyoming goes the first 11 minutes without a FG. It was the worst home loss for Wyoming in nearly 50 years, and has only been surpassed recently by a 28-point loss to UNLV under Heath Schroyer. If not for a 7-0 Wyoming run in the final minute, it would remain to date the worst loss for Wyoming since WWI.

I remember that game and wondering if we had another Hanno on our hands.


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