Political worldviews - how they differ, evolve, embody our own worldviews, etc

[Ma'ake]

Getting ready to check out of the hotel in Berkeley - great game, we were "that close" - and every time I come to California, it's an education, lots of ways. I'm glad my pioneer ancestors hopped off the California Trail - there's just too damn many people down here - but Cali's the fourth biggest economy in the world, Silicon Valley is stunning in it's sheer economic muscle, and that traffic is truly horrific.

Today's lesson - in Berkeley they've implemented a soda tax to address childhood-to-adult obesity, and it (apparently) is starting to have the intended effect.

In Texas, in Utah and a lot of the red states, this is the communism our parents warned us about.

Is it?

[Diehard Ute]

Getting ready to check out of the hotel in Berkeley - great game, we were "that close" - and every time I come to California, it's an education, lots of ways. I'm glad my pioneer ancestors hopped off the California Trail - there's just too damn many people down here - but Cali's the fourth biggest economy in the world, Silicon Valley is stunning in it's sheer economic muscle, and that traffic is truly horrific.

Today's lesson - in Berkeley they've implemented a soda tax to address childhood-to-adult obesity, and it (apparently) is starting to have the intended effect.

In Texas, in Utah and a lot of the red states, this is the communism our parents warned us about.

Is it?

Utah does that with liquor. 86% Tax. It's represented as a public health tax.

I'd argue sugar does as much damage, albeit in a different manner.

The point? It all depends on whether it's something you consume or care about.




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[Rocker Ute]

My best friend was killed by a guy sucking sprite through a red vine while driving.

Just kidding, sugar is bad too (but so tasty).

You know what'd be awesome is if a law was passed so places like Swig had to put up a Zion Curtain (or ceiling) and you couldn't refrigerate soda on the sales floor.


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[UTEopia]

I'm not sure where to post this, so I will post it here. Three players on the Nebraska football team decided to kneel during the National Anthem prior to the recent game against Northwestern. See Article: http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/nebraska-handled-anthem-protest-perfectly/ar-BBwKkLm

I guess my question is what would happen if a Utah athlete did this? It is unlikely to happen at a football game as the Anthem is played when the teams are not on the field. It could happen at a basketball game. Personally, I don't have a problem with it. I know many who have served in the military and in public safety positions that would be offended by it and I understand and agree that they have every right to be offended by it. I appreciate how Riley and the Nebraska President stood behind the right of the players to exercise their conscience and rights. The player quoted seems to have a real understanding of what he was doing and why he was doing it. I don't think it was done lightly.

[Ma'ake]

Three players on the Nebraska football team decided to kneel during the National Anthem prior to the recent game against Northwestern.

The kneeling is actually kind of a compromise "gesture of respect", which Kaepernick got from a meeting with a Green Beret, who himself still stands with hand over heart. It's still a protest, but hopefully seen as a bit more respectful.

It's too easy to get numb from the number of shootings, but this is a conversation we need to have, as a nation.

The long pregame conversation my wife and I had with Marcus Williams' uncle strayed into this topic. We were talking about all the great classic R&B music, and talked about Marvin Gaye, and how he captured the essence of 'the struggle' with "What's Going On?", and Marcus' uncle said "we really haven't made any progress".

I told him that in 29 years of being married to an African American woman from the South, IMO we have made *some* progress, but it's slow going, and it's a complicated issue that could use a LOT more discussion and exchanging of views. I told him about my coworker, who when she found out my wife is from Kentucky, asked what city, and then exclaimed, "oh yes, my father, when he was a little boy, used to go there with his grandfather to watch the lynchings".

Marcus' uncle had the same reaction everyone has, to that story. I'm guessing this was in the 1930s or 40s, when my father-in-law was a young man.

Progress has been made... but in a lot of areas (geographic and topical) we're stuck.

Just as worldviews and behaviors are passed down generations, there was a similar story my wife heard of, earlier this year, from back home. Apparently some criminal was holed up in a motel, and the cops found him, and he needed to be arrested. It turned into a standoff, more cops arrived, the fugitive asked to have his mom and his girlfriend summoned, and when they were there, he came out of the motel and pointed his gun toward a cop, and was shot, supposedly 30-something times. (Who knows how many actual shots were fired, but the basic story I believe is true.)

I totally understand the need for "safe" rules of engagement for the police. What they see, and what they have to deal with, is crazy. Over time, being a policeman has become a safer profession, I've read, and I have no problem with the precautions that allow them to go home to their families. But in the case of this kind of stand off, why not rubber bullets? Why not a shield and a taser?

There has to be a way to reduce the suicide-by-cop problem, for the disturbed vets, to avoid feeding the narrative within parts of the African American community that persists, the 21st century "lynchings".

And we need to find a better way, for the police, who serve us, and have to feel more under siege, even if the stats indicate they're "safer". I'm sure there are a few cops who don't mind the shootings, but my guess is 99+% are just as sick as everyone else is, about it.

America has proven to be able to wrestle with tough problems, and improve. We can do this. We need to do this. This problem is deep, and complicated. We have to stick with it.

[Rocker Ute]

I think people getting upset about this are assuming that we can't do anything better. We can. I know LEOs are typically doing there best but let's keep talking about training and technology that allows police to stay safe and limit taking lives wherever possible. I don't think rubber bullets or teasers are necessarily the answer but that doesn't mean we stop there for a solution.


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[Devildog]

I think people getting upset about this are assuming that we can't do anything better. We can. I know LEOs are typically doing there best but let's keep talking about training and technology that allows police to stay safe and limit taking lives wherever possible. I don't think rubber bullets or teasers are necessarily the answer but that doesn't mean we stop there for a solution.


We are doing a lot to train police officers. The simulators and force on force training most police receive is as good as anything that exists. I wish civilians could experience these training scenarios... they would have a much more informed perspective about how processing through very complex and difficult life and death circumstance in seconds... really is.

10,000 ways to fail, maybe 2 possible ways to succeed perfectly. Choose wisely, you have two seconds to decide and act. Could you outperform an average basically trained officer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odk6u5R8Cy0

[Devildog]

Again perspective matters,


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g

[Diehard Ute]

We are doing a lot to train police officers. The simulators and force on force training most police receive is as good as anything that exists. I wish civilians could experience these training scenarios... they would have a much more informed perspective about how processing through very complex and difficult circumstances in seconds... really is.

10,000 ways to fail, maybe 2 possible ways to succeed perfectly. Choose wisely, you have two seconds to decide and act. Could you outperform an average officer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odk6u5R8Cy0

Excellent post Devildog.

Salt Lake County has a simulator like this. I've used it. Salt Lake City has a similar one as well as a portable one. Murray PD has a live fire simulator.

Beyond the simulators live scenarios are trained with Simunitions on a regular basis (for those who don't know Simunituions are sort of like paint balls...but they're bullet shaped and fired from actual AR-15's or Glock handguns. They hurt like hell). New recruits for SLCPD go through multiple scenarios and simulators then do 2 10 hour days responding to simulated calls where Field Training Officers play the role of citizens. Each recruit is graded and evaluated on multiple criteria.

Some things people should know.

Tasers are great but are very limited. The range is less than 25', and the failure rate is higher than 50%. That's a big gamble to take if you don't have another option.

Rubber Bullets are mostly a movie thing. Less lethal options like 40mm baton rounds, bean bag shotgun rounds etc can be deployed but are only carried by certain officers and have a lot of limitations.

Most situations are very dynamic and happen very fast. In my personal situation where someone tried to kill me the entire incident lasted 3 minutes. The actual confrontation was about 5 seconds. That guy gets out of prison in 12 days. He served 17 months.

If you really want to try and get a better understand seek out a citizens academy. Most agencies in Salt Lake County offer one. And most departments also allow ride alongs.

Are there officers who make mistakes or are bad cops? Yes. But they're very rare. 99+% of all police contacts end with no force.

SLCPD has over 1,000,000 citizen contacts a year, and on average 1-4 shootings a year. Just food for thought.


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[Rocker Ute]

We are doing a lot to train police officers. The simulators and force on force training most police receive is as good as anything that exists. I wish civilians could experience these training scenarios... they would have a much more informed perspective about how processing through very complex and difficult life and death circumstance in seconds... really is.

10,000 ways to fail, maybe 2 possible ways to succeed perfectly. Choose wisely, you have two seconds to decide and act. Could you outperform an average basically trained officer?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odk6u5R8Cy0

If you've followed my posting history on this topic I am very much on the side of LEOs and I never meant to imply that a lot of training isn't happening.

Even when we are doing our very best on something there is always something more that can be done. New technology, training, etc. That's not an attack, that is true for everything.

For the sake of everyone the ideal would be a way to safely immobilize someone while keeping an officer safe. Somebody is going to come up with it so keep working towards it.

In the meantime the first priority is to keep an officer safe and shooting to kill is the best way to do that in some situations.


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[Diehard Ute]

If you've followed my posting history on this topic I am very much on the side of LEOs and I never meant to imply that a lot of training isn't happening.

Even when we are doing our very best on something there is always something more that can be done. New technology, training, etc. That's not an attack, that is true for everything.

For the sake of everyone the ideal would be a way to safely immobilize someone while keeping an officer safe. Somebody is going to come up with it so keep working towards it.

In the meantime the first priority is to keep an officer safe and shooting to kill is the best way to do that in some situations.


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But that's never what is done. You shoot to stop the threat. What happens from that happens.

The lawyer for Keith Scott made a statement today that deadly force is only justified if someone else has discharged a firearm.

It's this kind of thinking and statement that has led us to where we are. The idea that police officers, or innocent civilians, should have to take fire before officers can act is mind boggling and utterly dangerous.


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[Rocker Ute]

But that's never what is done. You shoot to stop the threat. What happens from that happens.

The lawyer for Keith Scott made a statement today that deadly force is only justified if someone else has discharged a firearm.

It's this kind of thinking and statement that has led us to where we are. The idea that police officers, or innocent civilians, should have to take fire before officers can act is mind boggling and utterly dangerous.


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Go read what I said again. I know that is never what is done.

What I said is we should keep working towards solutions that both keep you safe and ideally preserve the life of the criminal. Right now the best option is to shoot to stop. And no you shouldn't need to wait until they discharge a weapon that is just stupid.

That doesn't mean it will always be that way (shooting to stop being the best option). I was reading about a microwave emitting gun being tested by the military that makes a guy hundreds of yards away feel like his skin is on fire effectually neutralizing him from a safe distance but not causing any lasting harm (avoid the urge to tell me why that won't work right now - I get it). The point is new tech and methodology are hopefully going to come that achieve my above stated goal.


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[Diehard Ute]

Go read what I said again. I know that is never what is done.

What I said is we should keep working towards solutions that both keep you safe and ideally preserve the life of the criminal. Right now the best option is to shoot to stop. And no you shouldn't need to wait until they discharge a weapon that is just stupid.

That doesn't mean it will always be that way (shooting to stop being the best option). I was reading about a microwave emitting gun being tested by the military that makes a guy hundreds of yards away feel like his skin is on fire effectually neutralizing him from a safe distance but not causing any lasting harm (avoid the urge to tell me why that won't work right now - I get it). The point is new tech and methodology are hopefully going to come that achieve my above stated goal.


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I was clarifying your comment that "shooting to kill" was the best option.


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[Devildog]

If you've followed my posting history on this topic I am very much on the side of LEOs and I never meant to imply that a lot of training isn't happening.


I didn't intend to point that post at you specifically. I agree that there is always more that can be done. This nation often leads the way with innovative technology and training for law enforcement and the military. As always, the pressing needs of the day come first and scheduling, budgets, etc... always play a large role. Someone still has to go out and work the shift.

I've been told those Virtra simulators (like the one posted above) cost 1 million dollars. Diehard mentioned that SLCO has one. I think the A.G.'s office has one also. They make them available to agencies in the Salt Lake Valley and other Utah police departments willing to endure the cost of travel.

[Diehard Ute]

I didn't intend to point that post at you specifically. I agree that there is always more that can be done. This nation often leads the way with innovative technology and training for law enforcement and the military. As always, the pressing needs of the day come first and scheduling, budgets, etc... always play a large role. Someone still has to go out and work the shift.

I've been told those Virtra simulators (like the one posted above) cost 1 million dollars. Diehard mentioned that SLCO has one. I think the A.G.'s office has one also. They make them available to agencies in the Salt Lake Valley and other Utah police departments willing to endure the cost of travel.

You're correct.

The one UPD/SL County has was partially funded by the DA's office. It's at the UPD/Sheriff range and can be utilized by any agency. I'm not sure if the AG has one or not.

SLCPD's isn't 360 but it's the latest tech and is quite large. The city funded that last year.

I'm all for new tech, but I think it's years if not decades out. I remember when the Taser was going to change police work. While it's certainly a tool in the toolbox, it's not the answer many predicted it would be.


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[mUUser]

I'm not sure where to post this, so I will post it here. Three players on the Nebraska football team decided to kneel during the National Anthem prior to the recent game against Northwestern. See Article: http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/ncaafb/nebraska-handled-anthem-protest-perfectly/ar-BBwKkLm.....


US Soccer to Megan Rapine -- do it again and see what happens......

http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/18837878/megan-rapinoe-says-respect-us-soccer-policy-anthems