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OrangeUte
02-16-2017, 02:53 PM
Okay, here is the unveiling of the first book in our newly established everyone-a-member-if-they-want-to-be book club...

CAUTION - THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.

But, feel free to post what you want to post and analyze what you want to analyze about this book. Remember that disagreements over something that another person took away or interpreted from a book are lame; just say "thank you for your perspective" and then give your own 2 cents about the book. We will all silently judge the caliber of your comments and keep them to ourselves. However, engaging in a conversation is a completely different beast. Challenge and digging into ideas is what makes really good literature a venture worth pursing. Also, if you take some kind of analysis from Sparksnotes or anyone else, you damn well better attribute the idea or comment to them. I don't want to get a letter about this site getting sued for plagiarism because we had a friggin' book club on here.

Once we exhaust a discussion of it, we will have someone else pick another book and create a new thread to talk about the next book.

Book to read for the Club in February 2017 is the Pulitzer winner in 2016 for Fiction, The Sympathizer by Viet Thanh Nguyen. https://www.amazon.com/Sympathizer-Novel-Pulitzer-Prize-Fiction/dp/0802124941/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487281878&sr=8-1&keywords=sympathizer

NorthwestUteFan
02-16-2017, 03:10 PM
. Remember that disagreements over something that another person took away or interpreted from a book are lame;



'Round here we call that little maneuver the 'LA Ute'.

LA Ute
02-16-2017, 03:12 PM
'Round here we call that little maneuver the 'LA Ute'.

Thank you for your perspective.

NorthwestUteFan
02-16-2017, 03:14 PM
Thank you for your perspective.
See? That wasn't so hard. Good job!

Applejack
02-16-2017, 03:32 PM
I'm in! :willy:

LA Ute
02-16-2017, 03:59 PM
See? That wasn't so hard. Good job!

...you commie.

Utebiquitous
02-16-2017, 04:48 PM
I'm in as well. Thank you OrangeUte. I'll get started this weekend.

OrangeUte
02-16-2017, 05:05 PM
I thought about the choice for a day and went over probably 30 books that I thought would be great. someone mentioned grapes of wrath in the other thread and I almost chose that, one of my favorite books. but, ultimately I have heard lots of good things about this book and got tired of torturing myself over choosing "the right book". I hope it lives up to its billing.

LA Ute
02-16-2017, 05:20 PM
Just downloaded it to my Kindle.

OrangeUte
02-16-2017, 05:40 PM
awesome!!!

feel free to start posting as soon as you begin. I will start the book Saturday or sunday and start posting then about it.

NorthwestUteFan
02-16-2017, 07:47 PM
...you commie.
Well that lasted about 5 minutes. You are improving!

I am in. I look forward to this book. I hear good things about it. And we could use a good dystopian novel to distract from our dystopian reality.

USS Utah
02-17-2017, 06:05 PM
Pulitzer Prize winner:

http://www.pulitzer.org/winners/viet-thanh-nguyen

NorthwestUteFan
02-18-2017, 02:28 PM
Here is a very interesting (excerpt of an) article written by Viet Thanh Nguyen:

http://lithub.com/the-prophecy-of-martin-luther-king-jr-from-vietnam-to-iraq/

LA Ute
02-18-2017, 02:51 PM
Here is a very interesting (excerpt of an) article written by Viet Thanh Nguyen:

http://lithub.com/the-prophecy-of-martin-luther-king-jr-from-vietnam-to-iraq/

His perspective is left-leaning. It'll be interesting to see how that expresses itself in the book. I don't mind if it does -- I like LeCarre novels and he's consistently anti-West. He says interesting things like "Ideologies have no heart of their own. They're the whores and angels of our striving selves."

NorthwestUteFan
02-18-2017, 08:12 PM
His perspective is left-leaning. It'll be interesting to see how that expresses itself in the book. I don't mind if it does -- I like LeCarre novels and he's consistently anti-West. He says interesting things like "Ideologies have no heart of their own. They're the whores and angels of our striving selves."

http://godlessmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/youre-going-to-have-a-bad-time.png

LA Ute
02-18-2017, 11:16 PM
http://godlessmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/youre-going-to-have-a-bad-time.png

Nah. I'll be fine. Besides, I already paid for the book. There's no turning back now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SeattleUte
02-18-2017, 11:24 PM
Ha. I've been struggling with this one. I don't like it much at all. But I'm only about 60% through it. I remember I was reading the Pulitzer winner from a couple of years ago, The Orphan Master's Son, and wasn't too crazy about it, then all of a sudden it pivoted--there was this amazing development and scene that transformed the whole book from beginning (retroactively) to end, and now it's one of my favorites. I've been waiting for that kind of magic with this book, but none yet. I'll give you my analysis when I get a chance after finishing it. The problem with awards these days, is they often tend to be very politically motivated. This book seems a prime example.

SeattleUte
02-19-2017, 02:44 PM
Here is a sentence that is emblematic of what I find so unpleasant about this book: "I was in close quarters with some representative specimens of the most dangerous creature in the history of the world, the white man in a suit." It isn't the politics. The statement may even contain much truth. This is supposed to be funny, and it's just not. I actually like funny novels that tease me and test my convictions--give me a guilty pleasure. See the French novelist Michel Houellebecq's novels; his views are to a large extent aligned with Donald Trump's but the stories do not anticipate greatness, they are nihilistic. I think Trump is loathsome and I am not nihilistic, but I love Houellebecq' novels. There needs to be artistry, originality, wit, artfully rendered context. The problem I'm having with this novel is the artistry. Lacking that, the tired, dogmatic, nihilistic political theme is not provocative, it's just annoying.

OrangeUte
02-19-2017, 10:33 PM
Here is a sentence that is emblematic of what I find so unpleasant about this book: "I was in close quarters with some representative specimens of the most dangerous creature in the history of the world, the white man in a suit." It isn't the politics. The statement may even contain much truth. This is supposed to be funny, and it's just not. I actually like funny novels that tease me and test my convictions--give me a guilty pleasure. See the French novelist Michel Houellebecq's novels; his views are to a large extent aligned with Donald Trump's but the stories do not anticipate greatness, they are nihilistic. I think Trump is loathsome and I am not nihilistic, but I love Houellebecq' novels. There needs to be artistry, originality, wit, artfully rendered context. The problem I'm having with this novel is the artistry. Lacking that, the tired, dogmatic, nihilistic political theme is not provocative, it's just annoying.

I got torn between this book and "Lincoln In The Bardo", which I just finished. Funny and beautiful book. Basically flipped a coin. I'll be interested in your thoughts.

I'm hoping that the Ox milking scene in the orphan master wasn't the turning point in that book for you. I had a similar experience with that book. Struggled through it and then the "escape" began and I absolutely loved it.

LA Ute
02-19-2017, 11:45 PM
I'm hoping that the Ox milking scene in the orphan master wasn't the turning point in that book for you. I had a similar experience with that book. Struggled through it and then the "escape" began and I absolutely loved it.

I loved that one too.

LA Ute
02-22-2017, 12:16 AM
Our author's bio:

http://vietnguyen.info/author-viet-thanh-nguyen

OrangeUte
02-22-2017, 03:45 PM
not much analysis yet, but I am 40 pages in and think the set up for the story has been done nicely. as with many books, most actually, that I read, until I get knee deep in the story I have a tendency to cruise over words while my mind travels elsewhere. This has happened quite a few times in this book for me so far. I haven't been disappointed with the writing, and the story really is engaging me, so I don't think it means anything yet.

A few quotes that I liked:

On the effect of the war on the Vietnamese common citizen (page 4): "She was a poor person, I was her poor child, and no one asks poor people if they want war."

On the American withdrawal from Vietnam (page 4): "Having given us the needles, they now perversely no longer supplied the dope"; and (page 6) "Why is it that the only people who do not know that the Americans are pulling out are the Americans". He has a few humorous lines thrown in, but Viet Nguyen is no George Saunders with comedic relief thus far.

Page 32: "It is always better to admire the best among our foes rather than the worst among our friends."

OrangeUte
02-22-2017, 03:49 PM
Our author's bio:

http://vietnguyen.info/author-viet-thanh-nguyen

I listened to a discussion with him on youtube last night. here is one about the author's experience as a refugee in 1975. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOc6Unc_9ws

OrangeUte
02-22-2017, 03:52 PM
I listened to a discussion with him on youtube last night. here is one about the author's experience as a refugee in 1975. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOc6Unc_9ws

I do love the fact that a Vietnamese refugee is not only a Pulitzer winner for a novel written in English, but also a Berkeley PhD in English, and a professor at UCLA and Chair at that school's English Department.

concerned
02-22-2017, 05:03 PM
I do love the fact that a Vietnamese refugee is not only a Pulitzer winner for a novel written in English, but also a Berkeley PhD in English, and a professor at UCLA and Chair at that school's English Department.

lucky for him he isn't Muslim

chrisrenrut
02-24-2017, 08:55 AM
I learned a new word from this book. I am listening to it on Audible, and while talking about the fat major, I assumed the narrator was butchering the pronunciation of "corpulent", because he continued to refer to the major's weight as his most defining feature. I did not know that "crapulent" was a real word. I would have guessed it meant something different from it's Oxford dictionary definition, referring to excessive drinking or intoxication.

Rocker Ute
02-24-2017, 12:26 PM
I learned a new word from this book. I am listening to it on Audible, and while talking about the fat major, I assumed the narrator was butchering the pronunciation of "corpulent", because he continued to refer to the major's weight as his most defining feature. I did not know that "crapulent" was a real word. I would have guessed it meant something different from it's Oxford dictionary definition, referring to excessive drinking or intoxication.

Fans of The Simpson's will recognize this famous line from Mr Burns:

"Smithers had thwarted my earlier attempt to take candy from a baby, but with him out of the picture, I was free to wallow in my own crapulence."

SeattleUte
02-24-2017, 05:56 PM
I do love the fact that a Vietnamese refugee is not only a Pulitzer winner for a novel written in English, but also a Berkeley PhD in English, and a professor at UCLA and Chair at that school's English Department.

Which makes his contempt for this country all the more ironic.

OrangeUte
02-25-2017, 11:31 AM
Which makes his contempt for this country all the more ironic.

I am not far enough in to know if his novel is contemptuous. The interviews with him that I have heard have all been late night talk shows as I don't usually listen to anything analytical on a book until after I read it. sounds like his writing, at least, strikes chords of annoyance?

SeattleUte
02-27-2017, 05:51 PM
I am not far enough in to know if his novel is contemptuous. The interviews with him that I have heard have all been late night talk shows as I don't usually listen to anything analytical on a book until after I read it. sounds like his writing, at least, strikes chords of annoyance?

His protagonist is very unhappy in America and a Communist spy (no spoiler), even though given his birth conditions in Vietnam he's been really lucky and received a superb education in the US. That he lacks self-awareness and bites the hand that feeds him (not just the USA) is not his worst trait, but I don't want to give away any spoilers. It's hard to tell just what the US did to him that is so terrible, given where he came from, and where he is. It's not even clear to me that the US did anything so terrible to his country. The entity that got the worst deal seems to me the US, particularly those GIs who got mixed up in an ages old conflict not of their making that they probably didn't even really understand.

I'm not really close to any Vietnamese here in the US. I quite often eat in their restaurants, and sometimes go with my wife and get pedicures from them. I don't discern that any of them feel that this country has been unfair to them. I know some of these small business owners have kids in places like UW and Stanford.

But the protagonist is not the author of course. One of those canned bits of advice for aspiring novelists you hear all the time is that if you write in first person, you should make the protagonist likeable. I think that's an oversimplification. I'd say that if he's not likeable, make him interesting, and I could give you plenty of examples of dastardly and fascinating first person narrators. This character just hasn't measured up in my opinion. We'll see. I'm not devouring this book, to say the least, and I've set it down for a few days as I've been traveling, working hard, and also engrossed in my own writing project which I'm trying to finish. I'll finish The Sympathizer eventually and give you my final assessment. Fiction awards have gotten increasingly political, and it seems to me that this novel may have gotten the Pulitzer because it's contrary to all the Vietnam war stories that have come before it. But I'm not finished with it.

SeattleUte
02-27-2017, 06:00 PM
I got torn between this book and "Lincoln In The Bardo", which I just finished. Funny and beautiful book. Basically flipped a coin. I'll be interested in your thoughts.

I'm hoping that the Ox milking scene in the orphan master wasn't the turning point in that book for you. I had a similar experience with that book. Struggled through it and then the "escape" began and I absolutely loved it.

Yes, the escape was really when the book pivoted; such a rush when he emerged from that mine with the new identity and then the trip "home"! But my favorite scene--probably in retrospect--may have been the scene in Texas. It was very funny but also surprisingly affectionate and compassionate toward a bunch of goofy red state Americans. It was an amazing piece of artistry.

SeattleUte
02-27-2017, 06:01 PM
not much analysis yet, but I am 40 pages in and think the set up for the story has been done nicely. as with many books, most actually, that I read, until I get knee deep in the story I have a tendency to cruise over words while my mind travels elsewhere. This has happened quite a few times in this book for me so far. I haven't been disappointed with the writing, and the story really is engaging me, so I don't think it means anything yet.

A few quotes that I liked:

On the effect of the war on the Vietnamese common citizen (page 4): "She was a poor person, I was her poor child, and no one asks poor people if they want war."

On the American withdrawal from Vietnam (page 4): "Having given us the needles, they now perversely no longer supplied the dope"; and (page 6) "Why is it that the only people who do not know that the Americans are pulling out are the Americans". He has a few humorous lines thrown in, but Viet Nguyen is no George Saunders with comedic relief thus far.

Page 32: "It is always better to admire the best among our foes rather than the worst among our friends."

So far I'd say the first 40 pages are the best part.

OrangeUte
02-28-2017, 10:09 AM
Thanks for the comments SU. I look forward to comments on this book from you and all of the others. Hopefully these scenes of artistry as you described one of them, will carry the book through. I have some time today to read at lunch so I hope to bang out a chapter or two.

chrisrenrut
03-12-2017, 05:35 PM
I finished this on the drive home from the PAC-12 tournament today. The thing I like about books like this, The Orphan Master's Son, etc. is the opportunity to learn about people from vastly different culture, time, and experiences than me, in an entertaining way. As I read it, I was thinking about SU's initial perception, and I just didn't see it through that lens. I suppose SU being an author himself, looks at a book and really thinks about an author's motivation.

I listen to books, instead of read them, because that it the only way I can find time to get through them (while commuting, exercising, etc.). It has some disadvantages, and I feel like l may miss out on some of the deeper meanings as a result. It's easy to become visually distracted, lose focus or attention, and not as easy to go back and re-read a passage to search for deeper understanding.

The ending of the book to me was a little disappointing, but then again, I'm not sure what I would have expected. Everything was resolved, but I was expecting something more profound.

One recurring theme I noticed was a person or people having to be represented when they could not represent themselves. It came up often and in different situations enough that I think it was part of a larger point the author was trying to make. But I am still going over in my mind what that larger point is.

OrangeUte
03-17-2017, 08:36 AM
I finished this on the drive home from the PAC-12 tournament today. The thing I like about books like this, The Orphan Master's Son, etc. is the opportunity to learn about people from vastly different culture, time, and experiences than me, in an entertaining way. As I read it, I was thinking about SU's initial perception, and I just didn't see it through that lens. I suppose SU being an author himself, looks at a book and really thinks about an author's motivation.

I listen to books, instead of read them, because that it the only way I can find time to get through them (while commuting, exercising, etc.). It has some disadvantages, and I feel like l may miss out on some of the deeper meanings as a result. It's easy to become visually distracted, lose focus or attention, and not as easy to go back and re-read a passage to search for deeper understanding.

The ending of the book to me was a little disappointing, but then again, I'm not sure what I would have expected. Everything was resolved, but I was expecting something more profound.

One recurring theme I noticed was a person or people having to be represented when they could not represent themselves. It came up often and in different situations enough that I think it was part of a larger point the author was trying to make. But I am still going over in my mind what that larger point is.

I am glad that you posted this. I am 220 pages in and have had lots of work distractions this week. I am really enjoying the book and reading your take makes me feel motivated to get in and read the rest to find out how it resolves.

SeattleUte
03-20-2017, 04:09 PM
I am glad that you posted this. I am 220 pages in and have had lots of work distractions this week. I am really enjoying the book and reading your take makes me feel motivated to get in and read the rest to find out how it resolves.

I've finished it but will wait until you finish to give my comprehensive comments.

UTEopia
04-23-2017, 03:31 PM
I am a little late to the party because I was reading something else, but I am about 2/3 into the book and very much enjoying it.

OrangeUte
05-17-2017, 03:55 PM
I put it down because work got heavy and then started Brother's K. I will get back into this next week and post once again. I haven't forgotten about the book or this thread.