The Russell Nelson Era: Changes in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[LA Ute]

(Just thought I’d see what it’s like to type out the entire name.)

There have been so many. We had 2-hour church today. It was great.

I heard today that all stake auxiliary leader positions will be abolished. That would be great, IMO.

[LA Ute]

I was going to make a list, then ran across a thread on CS, which includes:

“No LDS President has implemented more changes in his first year of service than has Pres. Nelson.” True in my lifetime. It’s been amazing to watch and experience.

Others we’ve seen:

1. HT/VT “retired,” succeeded by ministering.
2. Consolidation of high priest groups and elders quorums
3. Church cutting ties with the BSA
4. Dropping or de-emphasizing “Mormon” in official references to the church
5. Two-hour meeting block
6. Change in youth progression between SS classes and AP quorums
7. Significant changes to temple ceremonies
8. Online Mission calls
9. Consolidated service/proselytizing mission recommendation process
10. Sister missionaries can wear pants!

I suspect that many of these have been in the hopper for awhile but we needed a healthy POTC fire them to be approved. I think they are all great changes.

[concerned]

I suspect that many of these have been in the hopper for awhile

Re the word "Mormon," a friend up mine high up told me that this has been an issue for Pres. Nelson for 30 years, and Pres's. Hinckley and Monson mostly ignored him.

[Sullyute]

Re the word "Mormon," a friend up mine high up told me that this has been an issue for Pres. Nelson for 30 years, and Pres's. Hinckley and Monson mostly ignored him.

That was wise on their point. That is the only change that I think is a head scratcher.

[LA Ute]

That was wise on their point. That is the only change that I think is a head scratcher.

I think RMN gave a talk about the subject while GBH was president. Seems like it was not urging any change, but just reminding people what to emphasize. Nothing like his recent sweeping instruction. I was struck by his adamant position. I think the greatest impact will be on members.

[SoCalPat]

That was wise on their point. That is the only change that I think is a head scratcher.

Notable in its absence on LA's list: The Church's continued meddling in affairs of a social nature, and for a change, one overwhelmingly sought after by the people, namely medical marijuana. Some things will never change.

Incorporating the Lord's demands into the name change was insulting to anyone with a brain. What, Jesus Christ can tell Nelson what his Church should be known as, but can't offer a clear path to medical marijuana that satisfies the desires of the people? What happened to agency? What happened to keeping the government out of people's affairs?

[UtahsMrSports]

I have no idea what the long term impact will be, but our sacrament meeting and sunday school hour were much more full yesterday. Sunday school featured a packed house when usually its maybe 3/4, closer to 2/3.

We were scheduled to get the dreaded (for me) 1-4 slot this year but instead we have 12-2.

I get a kick out of the fact that both the Mormon and ExMormon subreddit groups had threads detailing changes to the Temple ceremonies. The person on the Mormon subreddit thread started with something like "it started with a message from the first presidency asking us to not detail the changes" and then they proceed to list all of them.

[Rocker Ute]

Add the "Come Follow Me" home study curriculum to the list - which also is a significant change to the longstanding FHE program. We had a GA come to our Stake Conference in early December and basically said, "Do Come Follow Me on Sundays or a day that makes sense for you, Monday night can be reserved for fun activities as a family."

[LA Ute]

Add the "Come Follow Me" home study curriculum to the list - which also is a significant change to the longstanding FHE program. We had a GA come to our Stake Conference in early December and basically said, "Do Come Follow Me on Sundays or a day that makes sense for you, Monday night can be reserved for fun activities as a family."

Right. Forgot that one. I’m not sure if we are typical but once our kids got into middle and high school it was impossible to get together consistently on Monday nights anyway. This change adapts to the realities of most families’ lives.

[UBlender]

My son is now a deacon, four months earlier than we expected.

Lots of nice little changes.

My only complaint in all the changes is that I wish they had cut scouting cold turkey instead of forcing us to go through the motions this year.

Agree with this completely. Up until very recently I was a Bear Den Leader. Maybe my ward is unique, but people really checked out on scouting after the change was announced. I know that there are logistics and you can't just quit something like that without some time for transition, but my view is that keeping it going for 2019 was a miscalculation. We have the one family in our ward with four boys that LOVES scouting. The called the husband as the cubmaster (after he had just been released from that calling a year earlier) and the wife as cub committee chair (while she still serves in the primary presidency). It was the classic "no one else is willing to put any time into this dying program" move.

Anyway, there's probably more going on behind the scenes than I realize, but I think they should have announced the change with 6-8 months to transition. If they couldn't wrap everything up in scouting ore have the new program ready by the end of 2018 they should have held off on announcing the change.

[UtahsMrSports]

Agree with this completely. Up until very recently I was a Bear Den Leader. Maybe my ward is unique, but people really checked out on scouting after the change was announced. I know that there are logistics and you can't just quit something like that without some time for transition, but my view is that keeping it going for 2019 was a miscalculation. We have the one family in our ward with four boys that LOVES scouting. The called the husband as the cubmaster (after he had just been released from that calling a year earlier) and the wife as cub committee chair (while she still serves in the primary presidency). It was the classic "no one else is willing to put any time into this dying program" move.

Anyway, there's probably more going on behind the scenes than I realize, but I think they should have announced the change with 6-8 months to transition. If they couldn't wrap everything up in scouting ore have the new program ready by the end of 2018 they should have held off on announcing the change.

My oldest is turning 8 this year and we had a little "Baptism preview" this past week. The cubmaster came to talk to the kids about cubscouts and mentioned that the church is planning to implement a program that looks a lot like scouts at the cub scout and boy scout level.

I think President Monson was probably the last link between the church and the scouts. From my pov, people had started to sour on the BSA more and more over the years. The annual "friends of scouting" grew tiresome.

[LA Ute]

I think President Monson was probably the last link between the church and the scouts. From my pov, people had started to sour on the BSA more and more over the years. The annual "friends of scouting" grew tiresome.

In our ward the older boys who had gotten close to having their Eagle are hustling to get that done. At the lower levels parents and boys are already looking ahead.

I was on the executive board of our BSA council (the token Latter-day Saint member) and did not like what I saw. I loved what Scouting could be at the local level, with leaders who had the right dedication and attitude; but at the council level it was all about egos and money. Bad combination. I also saw the budgets. The LDS units brought in over 50% of the Friends of Scouting money. I can't help thinking that the BSA's recent announcement that it is considering bankruptcy is partly due to the LDS units walking away from Friends of Scouting.

[concerned]

I can't help thinking that the BSA's recent announcement that it is considering bankruptcy is partly due to the LDS units walking away from Friends of Scouting.

That has to be true. The big difference between boy and girls scouts is that the girl scouts have a stable income stream from cookie sales, in addition to donations.

[UtahsMrSports]

In our ward the older boys who had gotten close to having their Eagle are hustling to get that done. At the lower levels parents and boys are already looking ahead.

I was on the executive board of our BSA council (the token Latter-day Saint member) and did not like what I saw. I loved what Scouting could be at the local level, with leaders who had the right dedication and attitude; but at the council level it was all about egos and money. Bad combination. I also saw the budgets. The LDS units brought in over 50% of the Friends of Scouting money. I can't help thinking that the BSA's recent announcement that it is considering bankruptcy is partly due to the LDS units walking away from Friends of Scouting.

I never felt comfortable donating to friends of scouting, despite pleas from local leaders. I always felt that too much would be going to pay the salaries of useless higher ups at the BSA. Your post in a way validates my concerns. I think the church has the ability to administer a far more efficient program and keep the great things about scouting.

FWIW, I was the venture/varsity scout leader a few years ago, and our kids invited many local kids in the neighborhood who had no affiliation with the LDS church to come to camp and those that came seemed to have a great time.

[mUUser]

I give my full throated approval to the general direction of the church. I hope the progress continues at a blazing fast pace.

Curiously, I don't think my HS aged son has spent 2 minutes on scouting, yet I was called as cub scout helper -- although it was made crystal clear they didn't give a rip about the scouting program, and my calling was really just to have a fun activity once or twice a month and be a good role model. Zero emphasis on scouting. My wife's call as RS instructor was eliminated.

This move to Salt Lake in a ward with a deep, deep bench has been wonderful -- I can't remember the last time she didn't get piled on -- church wise.

[LA Ute]

I give my full throated approval to the general direction of the church. I hope the progress continues at a blazing fast pace.

Curiously, I don't think my HS aged son has spent 2 minutes on scouting, yet I was called as cub scout helper -- although it was made crystal clear they didn't give a rip about the scouting program, and my calling was really just to have a fun activity once or twice a month and be a good role model. Zero emphasis on scouting. My wife's call as RS instructor was eliminated.

This move to Salt Lake in a ward with a deep, deep bench has been wonderful -- I can't remember the last time she didn't get piled on -- church wise.

I'm one of two elders quorum instructors, which means that now at most I teach once a month. There are two emeritus GAs in the quorum, several former bishops, and one former mission president. It is a fun and easy group to "teach," because I learn a lot more than I teach. Light years away from our former ward, and it would be very different anyway now with the 2-hour block. My wife is the stake nursery leader (a calling I didn't even know existed) and I'll bet that calling will be going away soon.

[UBlender]

When I was on my mission, President Hinckley had recently spoken of the three things that were needed for activation/retention: 1. A friend, 2. A calling/responsibility and 3. Nourishing from the scriptures/teachings. That was a big focus as we tried to convert and activate members.

It seems that between the consolidation of various groups and programs and the rumors of the elimination of stake callings (which I've heard elsewhere as well) that the church is moving away from the theory that every member needs a calling. I was released from Cub Scouts a couple months ago and still don't have a calling. I've been scratching my head as to where they might put me. I'm sure I'll get something before too long but the "needs" are being significantly reduced. When they find a place for me and release someone else I don't know where that person will go.

I think this is a good thing. There are probably some that need an assignment to keep them actively engaged. I think there are more like me who are happy to help where they can but dislike assignments that become time-consuming and stressful and take me away from my family too much. I don't know if it is an objective to make personal lives of members easier and less stressful, but I can see that happening and it's for the best.

[SoCalPat]

How could continued anything make a list of changes?

Which is why the first thing I pointed out was that it was notably absent.

[DrumNFeather]

I have no idea what the long term impact will be, but our sacrament meeting and sunday school hour were much more full yesterday. Sunday school featured a packed house when usually its maybe 3/4, closer to 2/3.

We were scheduled to get the dreaded (for me) 1-4 slot this year but instead we have 12-2.

I get a kick out of the fact that both the Mormon and ExMormon subreddit groups had threads detailing changes to the Temple ceremonies. The person on the Mormon subreddit thread started with something like "it started with a message from the first presidency asking us to not detail the changes" and then they proceed to list all of them.

I was released as gospel doctrine teacher and now teach the oldest sunday school class...we had 19 kids age 15+ and I think the actual number was closer to 25 or so if they all came. We joked that I got better numbers in this class than in gospel doctrine. Should be a fun year though.

[Rocker Ute]

When I was on my mission, President Hinckley had recently spoken of the three things that were needed for activation/retention: 1. A friend, 2. A calling/responsibility and 3. Nourishing from the scriptures/teachings. That was a big focus as we tried to convert and activate members.

It seems that between the consolidation of various groups and programs and the rumors of the elimination of stake callings (which I've heard elsewhere as well) that the church is moving away from the theory that every member needs a calling. I was released from Cub Scouts a couple months ago and still don't have a calling. I've been scratching my head as to where they might put me. I'm sure I'll get something before too long but the "needs" are being significantly reduced. When they find a place for me and release someone else I don't know where that person will go.

I think this is a good thing. There are probably some that need an assignment to keep them actively engaged. I think there are more like me who are happy to help where they can but dislike assignments that become time-consuming and stressful and take me away from my family too much. I don't know if it is an objective to make personal lives of members easier and less stressful, but I can see that happening and it's for the best.

They have eliminated a ton of callings actually through the consolidation. The HP consolidation eliminated about 10 callings, the revision of the ministering program eliminated 4-5 callings in the RS, same with the elimination of venture and varsity scouting. One spot that was eliminated years ago that I wish would come back is the activities committee. That was a nice place for a lot of people who wanted to help but maybe struggled with a testimony, and also a great place for people who wanted to be involved in the church but weren't members.

Not a fan of made up callings, I hope that if the intent is like you mentioned (which isn't a bad thing) I hope they explain it that way - that not everybody will have a calling - because sometimes people feel left out if they don't have one.

As far as eliminating Stake callings, that actually makes a ton of sense. I had served previously on the high council (which is doctrinally mandated) but felt that much of what the high council traditionally did had been replaced by email. In other words, relaying messages back and forth from stake leadership to ward leadership etc, and so in a lot of ways mostly useless. The high council has the bandwidth to assume the roles of guiding a lot of things that are currently done by stake auxiliary.

The big shakeup this year to expect is the new program to replace scouting. It was noted that it would be for both girls and boys, 8 years old and up, and things like activity days would be eliminated. Done right it could be really cool.

Regarding the long wait to eliminate scouting, the story I heard is that the church notified the scouts of their intent, with the plan to announce the same time they presented the new program this year (giving the 6-8 month window you mentioned). The BSA however wanted to announce it anyway, and went ahead and did it. Watching what happened in light of that, I think they half expected a backlash. I get an email about weekly from the BSA asking for my feedback now and asking for me to continue to support it. I did give them feedback once, it was pretty harsh (along the lines of what disheartened LAUte) and I got a call from some GSL Council guy who pretended to be genuinely surprised by my concerns. My concerns are the same echoed here and throughout the church, so I told him I thought he was being less than sincere about it, or they were in massive denial.

My bold predictions, based off of nothing else but observed necessity:

1. The new youth program will be big - and great because it will equalize what is going on between young men and young women
2. Elimination of unnecessary stake callings
3. More emphasis on callings and positions that give women more leadership positions, why can't a woman be a ward mission leader, sunday school president, financial clerk, etc
4. More family history and temple work integration
5. More tweaks to take some unnecessary stuff off of bishop's shoulders
6. More tweaks to allow for decision making to be made at a ward level (de-emphasis on correlation)

Oh one other thing we forgot to mention is the change that service missionaries are called the same as proselyting missionaries, which is great. What I'd really like to see is that every missionary get called to at least a 6 month service component of their mission. I had an opportunity to do service only for about 6 weeks straight and it was the most effective part of my mission. We found more people and had more converts than any other time. It was also some of the best times on my mission. Something to be said to the 'Ammon approach' to missionary work.

[Rocker Ute]

Those 15-20 callings in your ward translated to about 4-5 callings for those of us living outside of Utah. Also, ward mission leader is optional now. You can just use a counselor in the elders' quorum presidency if you prefer.


High Priests Group = 4 in the group leadership plus 2-3 teachers, etc alone.



We still use an activities committee. There's nothing in the handbook that forbids this, and, like you said, it's a good idea. Those are callings where people can actually get to know each other.
Shame... shame!!!! ;) HB2 13.2.1 - "Under the direction of the bishopric, the ward council oversees the planning of ward activities. ...[the Bishop] may also assign responsibility for an activity to other individuals or to a committee, working under the direction of the ward council. Normally these assignments are temporary for a specific activity."




For the 8-11 year olds, I'm expecting it to look a lot like activity days looks now. For the YM/YW, I'm expecting it to look a lot like YW looks now. That's basically how a lot of wards have been doing it for a while, and it works great.

I think it will all be synced and a progression all the way through. Opportunities for camping, etc. Activity Days used to include both boys and girls long ago.



The financial clerk has to spend a lot of one-on-one, closed-door time with a member of the bishopric, and I don't think the church is ready to allow that (I also don't think they should allow it, but that might make me a caveman or something).

You may be right as far as the church being ready for it, although for our current financial clerk, and when I was a clerk, I don't recall any closed door time with members of the bishopric, but still it could easily be worked around. Just an example though - plenty of places where women can and should serve that have traditionally been held by men - for no other apparent reason but tradition.

[LA Ute]

My bold predictions, based off of nothing else but observed necessity:

1. The new youth program will be big - and great because it will equalize what is going on between young men and young women
2. Elimination of unnecessary stake callings
3. More emphasis on callings and positions that give women more leadership positions, why can't a woman be a ward mission leader, sunday school president, financial clerk, etc
4. More family history and temple work integration
5. More tweaks to take some unnecessary stuff off of bishop's shoulders
6. More tweaks to allow for decision making to be made at a ward level (de-emphasis on correlation)

I have a raw hunch that more people will be used to staff the temples. A current GA who’s in our ward (but can attend only rarely) spoke the Sunday before Christmas and mentioned the increase in worldwide temple construction. Seemingly as an aside, he mentioned that the number of operating temples would increase “by tenfold” within the next few years. I didn’t notice anyone else reacting to that statement, but it sure got my attention.

[chrisrenrut]

Exactly. The activities committee works under the direction of the ward council. You read it again, and you see there's nothing there to outlaw an activities committee

A comittee should only be in place for one activity. Then it dissolves.

But this his type of micro-management rule is the type that should also go away eventually. More autonomy locally to decide “how” to achieve the “what” that the church dictates.

[LA Ute]

I believe that's how most wards interpret it. My ward does not. There's room in there for some interpretation, and my bishop is big on common sense.

I fear for you, brother. You are on the high road to apostasy.

[Rocker Ute]

I fear for you, brother. You are on the high road to apostasy.

Yes, I think things are amiss in the land of sancho. They probably have candles on the sacrament table too.




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[Rocker Ute]

Exactly. The activities committee works under the direction of the ward council. You read it again, and you see there's nothing there to outlaw an activities committee.



I'm not sure what you mean by synced and progression. I hope there aren't badges, ranks, etc. Just good activities. My brothers' ward in Boise does the following for YM:

Week 1: combined with YW
Week 2: game night (could be sport or board games)
Week 3: service (mostly service to other ward members)
Week 4: skills night

I think you need to read it again my friend.

I was an EQP when they came out with the new handbooks and discontinued the standing activities committee, which I didn't care for at the time.

If you don't believe me, here is the press release at the time:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-handbooks-introduced-during-worldwide-training?lang=eng


...Other changes of note include... eliminating a standing ward activities committee and handling activities through the ward council..."

But I actually agree that this is the type of micromanagement that will hopefully go away. If it works for your ward go for it... and as I mentioned I wish it would come back for the benefits I mentioned. I doubt my bishop will go off script for this though, he thinks he has bigger battles to fight and is a mostly harmless weirdo.


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[LA Ute]

It's not my call. I just enjoy pointing out that there is more flexibility here than y'all believe.

That’s what Thomas B. Marsh said.

[Rocker Ute]

That’s what Thomas B. Marsh said.

I bet his bishop wears light blue shirts to church.


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[LA Ute]

I bet his bishop wears light blue shirts to church.


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...and is a Ute fan.

[concerned]

There was a headline about a month ago: "Researchers say the first person to live to 150 may already have been born." Somebody tweeted "Lets hope it is RBG." Maybe it is RMN.

[UBlender]

Not a fan of made up callings, I hope that if the intent is like you mentioned (which isn't a bad thing) I hope they explain it that way - that not everybody will have a calling - because sometimes people feel left out if they don't have one.

My bold predictions, based off of nothing else but observed necessity:

1. The new youth program will be big - and great because it will equalize what is going on between young men and young women
2. Elimination of unnecessary stake callings
3. More emphasis on callings and positions that give women more leadership positions, why can't a woman be a ward mission leader, sunday school president, financial clerk, etc
4. More family history and temple work integration
5. More tweaks to take some unnecessary stuff off of bishop's shoulders
6. More tweaks to allow for decision making to be made at a ward level (de-emphasis on correlation)


I agree with pretty much everything here, but especially the statement on made-up callings. I've been there. It's demeaning and frustrating. In pretty much everything in life I HATE the concept of doing something just for show. I've had a couple of jobs where there was a culture of staying late at the office pushing papers around just to give the appearance of working really hard and I can't run from those type of situations fast enough. I feel the same way about 80% of meetings--just send me an email with the key information and I'll come to you with questions if needed.

I've been wondering recently if it says in the handbook that women can't be in the Sunday School presidency or that men can't be in the Primary presidency. I think both of those would be healthy moves, but I think you'd have to have all men or all women rather than a combination because of the need for small group (presidency) meetings. I also think that small group meeting is what may prevent a female financial clerk. I've got about 6-7 years as a financial clerk under my belt. There wasn't a lot of closed door meeting (processing donations after church was always done with the door open) but it still does lend itself to a lot of one-on-one. I just don't think the church would want to create something where a man and woman were spending that much time together in close proximity.

[LA Ute]

I feel the same way about 80% of meetings--just send me an email with the key information and I'll come to you with questions if needed.

Elder Holland visited our stake in L.A. years ago, just before he became an apostle. In the priesthood leadership meeting he said, "We've raised up a generation in the church that thinks the way to serve the Lord is to go to a meeting." That's exactly what he said; I've always remembered it, and I remember wanting to stand up and cheer when he said it. This latest change in the Sunday block will help move us away from that kind of thinking, I hope. Stake auxiliaries, for example, are the most meeting-inclined leaders in the church. Reduce those, and we reduce lots and lots of meetings.

[Rocker Ute]

I agree with pretty much everything here, but especially the statement on made-up callings. I've been there. It's demeaning and frustrating. In pretty much everything in life I HATE the concept of doing something just for show. I've had a couple of jobs where there was a culture of staying late at the office pushing papers around just to give the appearance of working really hard and I can't run from those type of situations fast enough. I feel the same way about 80% of meetings--just send me an email with the key information and I'll come to you with questions if needed.

I've been wondering recently if it says in the handbook that women can't be in the Sunday School presidency or that men can't be in the Primary presidency. I think both of those would be healthy moves, but I think you'd have to have all men or all women rather than a combination because of the need for small group (presidency) meetings. I also think that small group meeting is what may prevent a female financial clerk. I've got about 6-7 years as a financial clerk under my belt. There wasn't a lot of closed door meeting (processing donations after church was always done with the door open) but it still does lend itself to a lot of one-on-one. I just don't think the church would want to create something where a man and woman were spending that much time together in close proximity.

I agree on the close proximity issue but I think there are ways to accommodate that, similar to how the money is currently handled (nobody is ever alone handling it).

Sorry I couldn't resist.

But honestly the point really is that I hope they are looking for more ways that women can lead, because the church is missing out. This is not pandering, it is fact, the relief society runs circles around the elders quorum in any ward I've been in. They know how to get stuff done and done right and like LA mentioned regarding Elder Holland they were never lulled into thinking that attending a meeting was worship.


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[Rocker Ute]

I know this is what we are supposed to say about the RS, but I think it's okay to say that men can do a good job too. I've seen effectiveness/ineffectiveness in both EQs and RSs. My wife has had callings with unnecessary meetings just like I have. She has also given meaningful service just like I have.

There are currently many great ways for women to lead in the church. If there are even more ways in the future, that's great. I'm not sure making women clerks or sunday school presidents really increases the effectiveness of many wards, though.

I'm not saying that because I'm supposed to, I'm saying it because it is by and large reality.

But then again, maybe if we had a standing activities committee...


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[Rocker Ute]

I can't really relate. I've had great and not-as-great leaders of both genders.

Of course, who hasn't?


But it definitely is part of Mormon culture (maybe American culture?) to put down the men in a joking fashion and to praise the women.

Some might call that sort of pandering to women part of the patriarchy, but that isn't where I am coming from and I also don't recall putting men down. I'm also talking collectively and not individually.

Forgive me if I admire how many women I know live their faith and for wanting for them to be able to share their talents in more substantive ways. That's all I'm really saying, so I'm not sure why you are pouncing on it.

[LA Ute]

I’ve been thinking about this and it occurs to me that with so many people freed up from eliminated callings, and so many temples being built, the newly-available members might be specially asked to serve in temples. The amount of temple work getting done could skyrocket. That is fine with me. Working in the temple is actual service, much more than sitting in a meeting.

[Rocker Ute]

Sorry for pouncing. It wasn't my intention.

I also value women highly. Women can obviously do a great job as clerks, SS presidents, ward mission leaders, or any other calling.

I suspect that if you ask the women you are referring to, they probably already believe they are able to share their talents in substantive ways. I hope they believe that because it's true.

I probably view it more this way:

Long before the merger of the HP and EQ my dad and I were talking and he asked me what the difference was between a HP and an Elder. There is really no difference except a HP is called to preside. He asked what all of those HP were presiding over? Nothing. He then pointed out that the scriptures state there can be up to 96 people in an EQ - in other words they are intended to be large by design. He was ahead of his time because he said he thought that when a Melch Priesthood holder was called to preside they should move to the office of HP, and then return to the EQ when they are done - exactly what is happening now. He pointed out the both the old guys and the young guys could benefit from the intermingling.

So when I suggest I'd like to see women given more opportunity to lead, it is that same sort of mutual benefit - not to say that they don't contribute a lot already or have meaningful ways to serve, just that we have a lot that we can learn from each other given those types of opportunities.

[UTEopia]

I was speaking with some friends the other day who were really upset that their daughter did not get accepted at the BYU and it got me thinking again about the future of BYU. How long can the Church justify supplementing the cost of the education of a small percentage of the college age members of the Church. I'm guessing there are maybe 50k who attend the BYU's each year and probably at least 1m who are in that age group. Those who attend BYU have done well in school and on tests and would likely be able to receive scholarships at other institutions. Many are from the higher socio-economic classes. Then you have the rest of the people. Kids in Nairobi who cannot go to high school because it costs more than their families make in a year. At some point the Church needs to see the inequality of their actions. I would love to see the Church take an amount of money equal to what they provide to BYU and make it available for scholarships to people to attend their local universities and trade schools. The Church could require those applying to have a Bishop's letter, sign an honor code and enroll in and attend the local institute. President Nelson needs to make this happen.

[Rocker Ute]

I was speaking with some friends the other day who were really upset that their daughter did not get accepted at the BYU and it got me thinking again about the future of BYU. How long can the Church justify supplementing the cost of the education of a small percentage of the college age members of the Church. I'm guessing there are maybe 50k who attend the BYU's each year and probably at least 1m who are in that age group. Those who attend BYU have done well in school and on tests and would likely be able to receive scholarships at other institutions. Many are from the higher socio-economic classes. Then you have the rest of the people. Kids in Nairobi who cannot go to high school because it costs more than their families make in a year. At some point the Church needs to see the inequality of their actions. I would love to see the Church take an amount of money equal to what they provide to BYU and make it available for scholarships to people to attend their local universities and trade schools. The Church could require those applying to have a Bishop's letter, sign an honor code and enroll in and attend the local institute. President Nelson needs to make this happen.

We've had this same discussion in my family. BYU is a school for the privileged now (which is a long shot from where it was 30 years ago).

My guess is the BYU Pathways program is going to see much more emphasis and focus (and will go a long way to providing education to the impoverished).


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[sancho]

BYU is a school for the privileged now


With a tuition like a community college. Just charge the privileged a regular tuition already!

I hate the drain on local schools. So many institutes across the country have dwindled to nothing as the BYU monster eats up college age LDS kids. The leftover kids struggle in the absence of an LDS support network. This creates a negative feedback loop where the stats show that BYU grads are more likely to stay active in the church.

[Sullyute]

The church already has the perpetual education fund to help those in need attend college or work training. I think it just needs a little more emphasis placed on it.

The church will not change the BYU model, it is exactly what they want it to be.

[sancho]

The church will not change the BYU model, it is exactly what they want it to be.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean I can't lament the downsides. And the church knows this model comes with downsides. They just think the upside is worth it.

[LA Ute]

The church will not change the BYU model, it is exactly what they want it to be.

Kind of a finishing school for the faith's best and brightest (mostly those growing up outside Utah)? Also a place to meet and marry, and to form connections that will last after school? And a way to establish an employment network for LDS grads? All of those are extra-educational goals for BYU, it seems to me. One danger is the creation of a sort of elitist aristocracy. That would include a lot of young people who think they're better than others, and that they graduated from an elite school (which is hard to get into because so many highly-qualified LDS kids want to go there, not necessarily because the education itself is elite). When I am recruiting law students from both Utah and BYU I find excellent candidates at both places and we have hired many from both, but I am often amused at the way BYU law students talk about how elite their school is.

[sancho]

Kind of a finishing school for the faith's best and brightest (mostly those growing up outside Utah)? Also a place to meet and marry, and to form connections that will last after school? And a way to establish an employment network for LDS grads? All of those are extra-educational goals for BYU, it seems to me. One danger is the creation of a sort of elitist aristocracy. That would include a lot of young people who think they're better than others, and that they graduated from an elite school (which is hard to get into because so many highly-qualified LDS kids want to go there, not necessarily because the education itself is elite). When I am recruiting law students from both Utah and BYU I find excellent candidates at both places and we have hired many from both, but I am often amused at the way BYU law students talk about how elite their school is.

Why do you hire them? You are less petty than I am.

Why do you say "mostly those growing up outside Utah"? I assume BYU still has a pretty high percentage of Utahns?

I went hiking with a church friend on Sat. Some of his kids have gone to BYU. He says at graduation, they have spouses and kids walk along with the graduate? "Walking with Skyler is his wife Brianna and their two kids Jaxsyn and Maydyn." Is that real? How did I never hear about that before? So, yeah, a place to meet and marry is a big part of it all.

I think the elitist aristocracy is real in the years immediately after high school. I've had missionaries use false modesty and say they go to school in Utah instead of saying they go to BYU (as if it were AJ telling people he goes to school in Boston). But the aristocracy dies out shortly after college age, when said elitist is the 2nd counselor in the ward sunday school presidency. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I've had almost no BYU alumni in my church leadership.

[UTEopia]

The church already has the perpetual education fund to help those in need attend college or work training. I think it just needs a little more emphasis placed on it.

The church will not change the BYU model, it is exactly what they want it to be.

The perpetual education fund is all but dead. It was a loan program and the loans did not get repaid. Maybe BYU tuition breaks should be a loan program.

[Scratch]

Kind of a finishing school for the faith's best and brightest (mostly those growing up outside Utah)? Also a place to meet and marry, and to form connections that will last after school? And a way to establish an employment network for LDS grads? All of those are extra-educational goals for BYU, it seems to me. One danger is the creation of a sort of elitist aristocracy. That would include a lot of young people who think they're better than others, and that they graduated from an elite school (which is hard to get into because so many highly-qualified LDS kids want to go there, not necessarily because the education itself is elite). When I am recruiting law students from both Utah and BYU I find excellent candidates at both places and we have hired many from both, but I am often amused at the way BYU law students talk about how elite their school is.

But it could still provide all of those benefits without the insanely low tuition (at least for those who don't need it). You'd still fill up the enrollment numbers with plenty qualified kids (although it would drop a little bit, but not much, if the rich kids had to pay full freight), but then could use whatever's left for kids around the world who really need it.

[UTEopia]

Kind of a finishing school for the faith's best and brightest (mostly those growing up outside Utah)? Also a place to meet and marry, and to form connections that will last after school? And a way to establish an employment network for LDS grads? All of those are extra-educational goals for BYU, it seems to me. One danger is the creation of a sort of elitist aristocracy. That would include a lot of young people who think they're better than others, and that they graduated from an elite school (which is hard to get into because so many highly-qualified LDS kids want to go there, not necessarily because the education itself is elite). When I am recruiting law students from both Utah and BYU I find excellent candidates at both places and we have hired many from both, but I am often amused at the way BYU law students talk about how elite their school is.

Unfortunately, the idea of continuing to fund BYU in this day and age when the Church is truly a world-wide Church is the result of too many in higher Church leadership who view themselves, probably unconsciously, as an aristocracy. There was a group in our prior Stake who dominated Stake leadership at all levels for many, many years who others in the Stake joking referred to as the Kennedys. They were primarily an East HS cabal.

[Rocker Ute]

The perpetual education fund is all but dead. It was a loan program and the loans did not get repaid. Maybe BYU tuition breaks should be a loan program.

I don't know if that is true (that it is all but dead). We have some members of our ward who teach at LDS BC and they are still getting people from all around the world on the PEF. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that it is now funded in such a way that it no longer needed donations to keep it going. I have heard people critical of it because the loans they give are solely off of the interest of the fund and not the full fund itself. Dunno - would like to learn more about that and if it is true.

I really do expect to see massive ramping up of the BYU Pathways program though to counterbalance what BYU is and provide access to a decent education to the global church.

I had to be on BYU's campus at the end of the year last year, and just looking at the massive infrastructure investments etc, it is hard to believe that the church will ever fully abandon that model. I do wish they would do as scratch suggested and let the wealthy parents pay a full tuition, and then let other students in who qualify but may not be able to pay.

As for BYU being a place to find your spouse, I've had two nieces and one nephew go there and all three have struck out at finding love at BYU, but found it elsewhere. I think they should ask for their money back.

[Sullyute]

I don't know if that is true (that it is all but dead). We have some members of our ward who teach at LDS BC and they are still getting people from all around the world on the PEF. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that it is now funded in such a way that it no longer needed donations to keep it going. I have heard people critical of it because the loans they give are solely off of the interest of the fund and not the full fund itself. Dunno - would like to learn more about that and if it is true.

President Hinckley stated that the loans were from the interest earned by the PEF endowment not the endowment itself, so it should never run out of money. That should be the greatest legacy of Hinckley if it is used correctly.

[Scratch]

I don't know if that is true (that it is all but dead). We have some members of our ward who teach at LDS BC and they are still getting people from all around the world on the PEF. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that it is now funded in such a way that it no longer needed donations to keep it going. I have heard people critical of it because the loans they give are solely off of the interest of the fund and not the full fund itself. Dunno - would like to learn more about that and if it is true.

I really do expect to see massive ramping up of the BYU Pathways program though to counterbalance what BYU is and provide access to a decent education to the global church.

I had to be on BYU's campus at the end of the year last year, and just looking at the massive infrastructure investments etc, it is hard to believe that the church will ever fully abandon that model. I do wish they would do as scratch suggested and let the wealthy parents pay a full tuition, and then let other students in who qualify but may not be able to pay.

As for BYU being a place to find your spouse, I've had two nieces and one nephew go there and all three have struck out at finding love at BYU, but found it elsewhere. I think they should ask for their money back.

The real solution would be for the church to sell BYU to private investors and let the marketplace control it. You would still have all of the supposed benefits that are being discussed in this thread, because the market would dictate that a huge private school in Provo, Utah (especially with BYU's history) would have cater to LDS students. You would still have essentially the same school, but the tuition would reflect the realities of the marketplace and you would also be able to disassociate from all of the negatives that get tied to the church (the church is fostering an elitist upper class, the church is subsidizing an education for a very small subset of largely American kids, the weird BYU-specific rules reflect the church's views in general, etc.).

[LA Ute]

Why do you hire them? You are less petty than I am.

Why do you say "mostly those growing up outside Utah"? I assume BYU still has a pretty high percentage of Utahns?

Gotta hire the best candidates regardless of sports biases! Insufferable people are a small minority at BYU, IMO (the biggest chunk of them are among the diehard sports fans). Being from Utah or SoCal is a negative factor for BYU applicants, I’m told.

[sancho]

The real solution would be for the church to sell BYU to private investors and let the marketplace control it. You would still have all of the supposed benefits that are being discussed in this thread, because the market would dictate that a huge private school in Provo, Utah (especially with BYU's history) would have cater to LDS students. You would still have essentially the same school, but the tuition would reflect the realities of the marketplace and you would also be able to disassociate from all of the negatives that get tied to the church (the church is fostering an elitist upper class, the church is subsidizing an education for a very small subset of largely American kids, the weird BYU-specific rules reflect the church's views in general, etc.).

I always figured SVU would eventually become a BYU east campus. You are suggesting the opposite - BYU becomes SVU west. I'm on board if anyone's taking a vote!

[sancho]

Gotta hire the best candidates regardless of sports biases! Insufferable people are a small minority at BYU, IMO (the biggest chunk of them are among the diehard sports fans). Being from Utah or SoCal is a negative factor for BYU applicants, I’m told.

Yes, but sports biases should be factored in when determining "best candidates", right?

I'm sure being from Utah is a negative factor in admissions, but I'm also reasonably certain that the Utah percentage at BYU is still very high.

[sancho]

They were primarily an East HS cabal.

Ugh, the worst kind of cabal.

[Scratch]

They were primarily an East HS cabal.

That sounds more like natural selection as opposed to some sort of cabal.

[Rocker Ute]

President Hinckley stated that the loans were from the interest earned by the PEF endowment not the endowment itself, so it should never run out of money. That should be the greatest legacy of Hinckley if it is used correctly.

My comment was poorly structured (big surprise). My wondering if something was true wasn't about the PEF being run off the interest, but rather if it was all but dead.

Regarding being run solely off of the interest of the fund - I could look for it, but the church basically put out something that said as much and so I was under the impression that even if 0% of the loans ever got paid back it could go into perpetuity. I agree, that is a tremendous legacy. I only noted that people were critical that not all of PEF funds were being used, but these critics are also the same people who are critical of the Church's charitable work in general.

[LA Ute]

Yes, but sports biases should be factored in when determining "best candidates", right?

At work I’m surrounded by fans of USC, UCLA, Notre Dame, the Western Bay Area MLB franchise, and the Yankees. I can tolerate anything.

[Sullyute]

My comment was poorly structured (big surprise)....

I quoted you but was really responding to UTEopia. I interpreted his comment as the PEF was nearly dead because it was out of money as borrowers did’t pay back the loans, not that the PEF was being mothballed for lack of use. Either way I think you and I are of the same opinion on the PEF.

UTEopia, can you add some color to your comment about the PEF?

[UTEopia]

I quoted you but was really responding to UTEopia. I interpreted his comment as the PEF was nearly dead because it was out of money as borrowers did’t pay back the loans, not that the PEF was being mothballed for lack of use. Either way I think you and I are of the same opinion on the PEF.

UTEopia, can you add some color to your comment about the PEF?

I may have failed to articulate what I was told. I was told that the PEF was not being pushed because it was not functioning the way it was envisioned because recipients were unable to repay their loans. I thought the PEF was a great idea when it was rolled out. However, the more I thought about it, the less I liked it. Why provide huge subsidies for the educations of the brightest and require those who are not otherwise able to have their educations paid for resort to obtaining a loan. Education at a Church school is the only Church program that does not provide an avenue for access for all worthy members. There may have been a time when it was needed in order to bring kids together for marrying, etc., but it seems to me that the Church would be better served by keeping those people in their local areas, attending local schools and local institutes instead of waiting for the benefits from the BYU educated to trickle down to the unwashed masses.

[LA Ute]

There may have been a time when it was needed in order to bring kids together for marrying, etc., but it seems to me that the Church would be better served by keeping those people in their local areas, attending local schools and local institutes instead of waiting for the benefits from the BYU educated to trickle down to the unwashed masses.

When we first moved to L.A. in 1982 it was every pretty much every active LDS teenager's dream to go to BYU, if the kid was interested in college. It was still a rite of passage then, for most. We saw that change with the growth of the church. If the church keeps growing BYU's role has to change naturally.

[Rocker Ute]

If any of you have read the biography of David O McKay the struggle between him and Ernest Wilkinson is pretty interesting in light of this discussion and realities of the church today. Wilkinson was about building BYU and like institutions all over. He wanted to create a gigantic educational conglomerate. McKay worried about the ongoing expense and feasibility of such a thing. It would appear McKay was right and fortunately Wilkinson didn't get his full wish.


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[LA Ute]

If any of you have read the biography of David O McKay the struggle between him and Ernest Wilkinson is pretty interesting in light of this discussion and realities of the church today. Wilkinson was about building BYU and like institutions all over. He wanted to create a gigantic educational conglomerate. McKay worried about the ongoing expense and feasibility of such a thing. It would appear McKay was right and fortunately Wilkinson didn't get his full wish.


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Ernie was quite a force of nature. I interviewed him once for a political science paper. At that time he was "President Emeritus" of BYU. He had a very fiery personality, which he himself described as "tempestuous." Even when I quietly asked him polite questions, he sometimes shouted his answers. When he was BYU's president he was constantly competing with the U. If the U. put up a new building, BYU would put up a bigger one. For example, the Marriott Center was a direct response to the Huntsman Center (then the Special Events Center.) It was actually kind of funny to watch.

[mpfunk]

Notable in its absence on LA's list: The Church's continued meddling in affairs of a social nature, and for a change, one overwhelmingly sought after by the people, namely medical marijuana. Some things will never change.

Incorporating the Lord's demands into the name change was insulting to anyone with a brain. What, Jesus Christ can tell Nelson what his Church should be known as, but can't offer a clear path to medical marijuana that satisfies the desires of the people? What happened to agency? What happened to keeping the government out of people's affairs?

You also forgot doubling down on discriminatory policies and teachings about the LBGTQ community.

[Utebiquitous]

Wilkinson really looks bad in our time on the blacks and the priesthood issue. In a biography on Lowell Bennion, Mary Lythgoe Bradford writes about a debate Bennion had with Wilkinson in Provo on the matter. I'm not remembering the substance of the debate but Bennion's peaceful opposition to the issue got him banished from head of the U Institute of Religion. Wilkinson, who had grabbed power over all institutes of religion while at BYU, didn't fire Bennion (I doubt Pres. McKay would have allowed that given his friendship with Bennion), he assigned him to Weber State. Bennion declined the offer, resigned and crossed the street onto the U campus to work for a young Neal A. Maxwell in student affairs for a few years before retiring and working at the food bank.

[LA Ute]

Wilkinson really looks bad in our time on the blacks and the priesthood issue. In a biography on Lowell Bennion, Mary Lythgoe Bradford writes about a debate Bennion had with Wilkinson in Provo on the matter. I'm not remembering the substance of the debate but Bennion's peaceful opposition to the issue got him banished from head of the U Institute of Religion. Wilkinson, who had grabbed power over all institutes of religion while at BYU, didn't fire Bennion (I doubt Pres. McKay would have allowed that given his friendship with Bennion), he assigned him to Weber State. Bennion declined the offer, resigned and crossed the street onto the U campus to work for a young Neal A. Maxwell in student affairs for a few years before retiring and working at the food bank.

Bennion, my namesake, also founded the Utah Boys' Ranch, now known as West Ridge Academy.

Ironically, not long afterwards Neal Maxwell became the first Church Commissioner of Education, right after Wilkinson retired. His top priority was to restructure the church education system. The president of BYU now reported to him, and BYU did not run the system anymore -- it was simply part of it. Still the "big dog" in the system, to be sure, but not running it.

[Utebiquitous]

I didn't know that piece LA. I love that Maxwell made that move. Wilkinson was far too powerful from his BYU perch in the 60s. It was an interesting leadership style of Pres. McKay. He really allowed some interesting people to have a lot of bandwidth/influence - including Wilkinson and a young McConkie.

[concerned]

I didn't know that piece LA. I love that Maxwell made that move. Wilkinson was far too powerful from his BYU perch in the 60s. It was an interesting leadership style of Pres. McKay. He really allowed some interesting people to have a lot of bandwidth/influence - including Wilkinson and a young McConkie.

And Mark Peterson

[UTEopia]

I didn't know that piece LA. I love that Maxwell made that move. Wilkinson was far too powerful from his BYU perch in the 60s. It was an interesting leadership style of Pres. McKay. He really allowed some interesting people to have a lot of bandwidth/influence - including Wilkinson and a young McConkie.

McConkie lobbied McKay for years to make his book "Mormon Doctrine" an official publication of the Church. McKay, however, had serious reservations about the book and had a group look at the book for inconsistencies with accepted Church doctrine and revelation. They concluded that their were too many opinions being given without doctrinal support and McKay did not grant McConkie his wish.

[Rocker Ute]

McConkie lobbied McKay for years to make his book "Mormon Doctrine" an official publication of the Church. McKay, however, had serious reservations about the book and had a group look at the book for inconsistencies with accepted Church doctrine and revelation. They concluded that their were too many opinions being given without doctrinal support and McKay did not grant McConkie his wish.

And thank goodness. That book caused me more heartache as a missionary than any other source.


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[LA Ute]

And thank goodness. That book caused me more heartache as a missionary than any other source.


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I've always thought the title -- Mormon Doctrine -- was pretty, um, audacious.

[Utebiquitous]

Speaking of McConkie and Mormon Doctrine, there is a McConkie - I think a son or nephew of Bruce, who has co-written with his wife the book "Whom Say Ye That I Am." It is one of the finest books on Jesus I've read - just terrific insight into Jesus' time and teachings. The only miss is a chapter at the end where the McConkie's include a friends essay on the character of Jesus. I found it far too speculative. Other than that chapter it's a high recommend. If any of you are looking to supplement your New Testament reading - or just looking for great reading - order it.

[LA Ute]

Speaking of McConkie and Mormon Doctrine, there is a McConkie - I think a son or nephew of Bruce, who has co-written with his wife the book "Whom Say Ye That I Am." It is one of the finest books on Jesus I've read - just terrific insight into Jesus' time and teachings. The only miss is a chapter at the end where the McConkie's include a friends essay on the character of Jesus. I found it far too speculative. Other than that chapter it's a high recommend. If any of you are looking to supplement your New Testament reading - or just looking for great reading - order it.

I’m going to pick it up and read it. Checking the reviews and the publisher’s summary, it looks a little like the authors want to make Jesus out to be a social justice warrior, kind of in the liberation theology mold. I don’t lean that way at all but I’ll still read the book and learn what I can. Is my hunch right?

[Utebiquitous]

Yes LA - along the lines of how your namesake views Jesus but it's more than that. I do lean that way as you know but I think I benefited more from the contextual/historical writing. It brought new understanding for me. As I mention above - the friend essay was almost silly compared to the rest of the book. Other than that, you'll benefit.

[Scorcho]

With general conference just around the corner, there are rumors of more changes coming in April. These rumors lately are about changes to the Word of Wisdom. That makes sense to me. That revelation/inspiration is in need of an update. Apparently the rumor is the softening/removal of tea and coffee abstinence for temple worthiness among other things. Who knows if it’s true of not?

I think I’ve mentioned before, but my MIL’s bishop ok’d her to be a temple worker about a decade ago, aware that she drank coffee regularly. She was a convert and had drank coffee her entire life. In retrospect it seems like such a minor thing to be worried about today.

[Mormon Red Death]

With general conference just around the corner, there are rumors of more changes coming in April. These rumors lately are about changes to the Word of Wisdom. That makes sense to me. That revelation/inspiration is in need of an update. Apparently the rumor is the softening/removal of tea and coffee abstinence for temple worthiness among other things. Who knows if it’s true of not?

I think I’ve mentioned before, but my MIL’s bishop ok’d her to be a temple worker about a decade ago, aware that she drank coffee regularly. She was a convert and had drank coffee her entire life. In retrospect it seems like such a minor thing to be worried about today.That would be a gigantic change.

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[Rocker Ute]

That would be a gigantic change.

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I'd be surprised if it was exactly like that, if true. Basically all of these recent changes have been a simplification accompanied by what should be a deeper commitment.


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[Sullyute]

With general conference just around the corner, there are rumors of more changes coming in April. These rumors lately are about changes to the Word of Wisdom. That makes sense to me. That revelation/inspiration is in need of an update. Apparently the rumor is the softening/removal of tea and coffee abstinence for temple worthiness among other things. Who knows if it’s true of not?

I think I’ve mentioned before, but my MIL’s bishop ok’d her to be a temple worker about a decade ago, aware that she drank coffee regularly. She was a convert and had drank coffee her entire life. In retrospect it seems like such a minor thing to be worried about today.

Boo! Keep Portland Mormons weird!!!

[chrisrenrut]

Boo! Keep Portland Mormons weird!!!

I could see the church going back to a more literal translation of the first few verses of Section 89. I think it will still be frowned on, just not a disqualifier for temple worthiness. We already don't enforce the "eat meat sparingly" as a qualifying principle.

D&C 89 is worded such that not following these "principles with promise" (not commandment or constraint) probably shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[Scratch]

I could also see more leniency with converts, that is, you can be a member in full fellowship and attend the temple if you were using those things prior to baptism and continue after, and we encourage you to cut back and/or move on as you progress.

[UTEopia]

I could see the church going back to a more literal translation of the first few verses of Section 89. I think it will still be frowned on, just not a disqualifier for temple worthiness. We already don't enforce the "eat meat sparingly" as a qualifying principle.

D&C 89 is worded such that not following these "principles with promise" (not commandment or constraint) probably shouldn't be a disqualifier.


When did the Word of Wisdom become a disqualified for temple worthiness? Was it before or just after WWII?

[Rocker Ute]

When did the Word of Wisdom become a disqualified for temple worthiness? Was it before or just after WWII?

Heber J Grant - although at the time he did give leniency to older people who had been doing it for years.

[LA Ute]

Heber J Grant - although at the time he did give leniency to older people who had been doing it for years.

My grandfather was of that era. Drank coffee all his life, served on general boards and was uber-active all his life.

[Utebiquitous]

I'm hearing some additional missionary changes. I don't know if all of them will be addressed this conference or even in conference. There has been serious discussion on length of service, including giving missionaries and their families a menu to choose from similar to what they've done with service missions. I know that the church is going to move to missionaries serving in their own countries. I don't know if that will be announced or not but it's going to happen. That will take some time but it makes sense on all kinds of levels. One reason I was told that was a little surprising was a hope to change the inactivity number. For some time now 35% of missionaries become inactive. As the brethren have studied reasons for this they've found a correlation to foreign service missions - particularly missions with very difficult languages to learn and cultural adjustments. I think there are a few more changes to come but they'll probably be down the road a bit. Conversations are happening about mission president roles and giving more "boots on the ground" power to stake presidents.

Anyway, that's a few.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm hearing some additional missionary changes. I don't know if all of them will be addressed this conference or even in conference. There has been serious discussion on length of service, including giving missionaries and their families a menu to choose from similar to what they've done with service missions. I know that the church is going to move to missionaries serving in their own countries. I don't know if that will be announced or not but it's going to happen. That will take some time but it makes sense on all kinds of levels. One reason I was told that was a little surprising was a hope to change the inactivity number. For some time now 35% of missionaries become inactive. As the brethren have studied reasons for this they've found a correlation to foreign service missions - particularly missions with very difficult languages to learn and cultural adjustments. I think there are a few more changes to come but they'll probably be down the road a bit. Conversations are happening about mission president roles and giving more "boots on the ground" power to stake presidents.

Anyway, that's a few.

I've heard this one too, and also heard it when I was serving a mission a couple of decades ago, in fact having a general authority tell us as much a couple of decades ago while I was on my mission a couple of decades back - I served stateside. A couple of reasons he cited were the ability to get people teaching quickly and effectively - at the time they estimated it took most missionaries about 18 months to be fully effective. He also cited an ongoing connection to the mission area they served, cultural barriers and expense.

FWIW, in my ward we haven't had a single stateside missionary called in about three years which had made me wonder about what I was once told (as I used to think you could see that strategy).

I wish that every mission would have a significant full-time strictly service component to it - meaning for 6 months or something you'd just help build wells or whatever. It would take some stigma away from young missionaries who can only serve service missions, I think.


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[sancho]

As the brethren have studied reasons for this they've found a correlation to foreign service missions - particularly missions with very difficult languages to learn and cultural adjustments.

It would be a shame. There are so many benefits to having a diversity of language and culture experiences within the Church. But the times, they are a changin.

[Rocker Ute]

It would be a shame. There are so many benefits to having a diversity of language and culture experiences within the Church. But the times, they are a changin.

I agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

I agree.

So do I. I do think it's clear that they are trying not to send Americans to places where there is significant anti-American sentiment. That's probably true in every situation -- e.g., sending Russians to Ukraine and Georgia and vice-versa.

[Utebiquitous]

I'm with you as well - my international experience was terrific for me; but I think of the financial cost and human cost of international service besides the worries about inactivity rates and I can see the reasoning. Perhaps it will be a mix in some regions but the person I've discussed this with was certain the church is headed this direction. He did say it would be over time and that some moves are already being made so perhaps it won't be announced.

I love the comment above on incorporating more service into the mission. I was complaining to LA recently that my son is in a stateside mission and basically knocking doors every waking hour. Some service has crept into the mission with very reluctant acceptance from the mission president. It's seeped into the mission not from the president but from elders and sisters asking if they can do it. He's agreed by saying no more than 5 to 10 percent of their time can be service per week.

[Rocker Ute]

I'm with you as well - my international experience was terrific for me; but I think of the financial cost and human cost of international service besides the worries about inactivity rates and I can see the reasoning. Perhaps it will be a mix in some regions but the person I've discussed this with was certain the church is headed this direction. He did say it would be over time and that some moves are already being made so perhaps it won't be announced.

I love the comment above on incorporating more service into the mission. I was complaining to LA recently that my son is in a stateside mission and basically knocking doors every waking hour. Some service has crept into the mission with very reluctant acceptance from the mission president. It's seeped into the mission not from the president but from elders and sisters asking if they can do it. He's agreed by saying no more than 5 to 10 percent of their time can be service per week.

Stories about my mission are old hat, but we had time each week to just do service in my mission. I've noticed the missionaries locally seem to have free latitude to do as much service as they see fit, and they seem to do a pretty significant amount. I did have a stint during my mission where I was able to just do straight service for about 6 weeks, and as a result we found more people to teach than at any other part of my mission. It was a great way to break down barriers and preconceived notions about us. It was also a time where we were doing some meaningful things for individuals and weren't irritating people by knocking on their door, and so my generally happiness was really high. It also started a pattern of service that is still pretty meaningful in my life today.

[LA Ute]

I'm with you as well - my international experience was terrific for me; but I think of the financial cost and human cost of international service besides the worries about inactivity rates and I can see the reasoning. Perhaps it will be a mix in some regions but the person I've discussed this with was certain the church is headed this direction. He did say it would be over time and that some moves are already being made so perhaps it won't be announced.

I love the comment above on incorporating more service into the mission. I was complaining to LA recently that my son is in a stateside mission and basically knocking doors every waking hour. Some service has crept into the mission with very reluctant acceptance from the mission president. It's seeped into the mission not from the president but from elders and sisters asking if they can do it. He's agreed by saying no more than 5 to 10 percent of their time can be service per week.

In our mission in L.A., which stretched from the San Fernando Valley to Bakersfield, the missionaries were doing service every week, even for active members. They have been finding lots of people to teach as a result, although that's not the reason for doing it. (Hey, it worked for Ammon.)

[Scorcho]

I'm with you as well - my international experience was terrific for me

it was always disheartening when the attractive girl asked where you went on your mission and you mumbled some obscure state in the Midwest. She was already looking elsewhere for the missionaries who spoke French or Portuguese.

What's it like to have pride in where you served? :cry:

And deep, deep down I always thought maybe I wasn't smart enough to learn a foreign language or God didn't trust me to leave the country.

I may or may not have some unresolved issues about this.

[chrisrenrut]

it was always disheartening when the attractive girl asked where you went on your mission and you mumbled some obscure state in the Midwest. She was already looking elsewhere for the missionaries who spoke French or Portuguese.

What's it like to have pride in where you served? :cry:

And deep, deep down I always thought maybe I wasn't smart enough to learn a foreign language or God didn't trust me to leave the country.

I may or may not have some unresolved issues about this.

Missionaries called to English speaking missions were those who had already proved their valiance in the pre-mortal or pre-mission life. They had no more need for the refiner's fire.

I may or may have not have already resolved personal issue about this.

[Scratch]

When I was a teenager, my ward would occasionally have sacrament meetings where parents (usually moms) of all the missionaries out from our ward would basically give updates and share some of their missionary's experiences. It inevitably turned into a brag-fest about everything the missionaries were doing. I don't know if the moms were trying to one-up each other, but it sure felt like that.

In order to properly decide who was winning, my friends and I (mostly) jokingly came up with with a test for weighing various accomplishments. You had to factor in how long the missionary had been out, if and when they became a senior companion, trainer, district leader, zone leader, or AP. Then you had to factor that by where they were serving, with the foreign speaking third-world countries getting the most credit, followed by foreign-speaking-first-world countries, foreign-speaking in America, foreign English speaking, and English-speaking in America, all in that order (although I can't quite remember the order for foreign English speaking and U.S. non-English). While we were joking around, it certainly showed how teenage boys preparing for missions viewed the different mission calls.

[sancho]

it was always disheartening when the attractive girl asked where you went on your mission and you mumbled some obscure state in the Midwest. She was already looking elsewhere for the missionaries who spoke French or Portuguese.


If it helps, my Spanish was not enough to make me attractive to the ladies.

I did win the mission lottery though. I spent 1 year climbing around the Andes mountains and 1 year in Lima. I ate like a king (no other missions in the world compare to Latin America for quality and quantity of food), and each preparation day was like a new adventure out of National Geographic. I arrived in Peru shortly after the Shining Path terrorists were defeated. There was a solid decade of no North American tourism, so I was a total novelty/celebrity. It was a tremendous spiritual experience, but it was also an amazing cultural experience.

As a nerd, there were 0 women in my classes at the U. As a senior, I finally decided to take something else just to see if I could meet girls. I signed up for French I, and of the 18 students, I was the only guy. It was a great class. In language classes, they pair you up all the time for practice. I got to know all the ladies...but I was still too shy to ask any of them out :(. The teacher was a grad student in French who had served a mission in Tahiti. I'm pretty sure she wanted me to ask her out after the semester ended, but, again, too shy back then.

[concerned]

If it helps, my Spanish was not enough to make me attractive to the ladies.

I did win the mission lottery though. I spent 1 year climbing around the Andes mountains and 1 year in Lima. I ate like a king (no other missions in the world compare to Latin America for quality and quantity of food), and each preparation day was like a new adventure out of National Geographic. I arrived in Peru shortly after the Shining Path terrorists were defeated. There was a solid decade of no North American tourism, so I was a total novelty/celebrity. It was a tremendous spiritual experience, but it was also an amazing cultural experience.

As a nerd, there were 0 women in my classes at the U. As a senior, I finally decided to take something else just to see if I could meet girls. I signed up for French I, and of the 18 students, I was the only guy. It was a great class. In language classes, they pair you up all the time for practice. I got to know all the ladies...but I was still too shy to ask any of them out :(. The teacher was a grad student in French who had served a mission in Tahiti. I'm pretty sure she wanted me to ask her out after the semester ended, but, again, too shy back then.

Was this 1985? I hiked the Inca trail right after the Sendero Luminoso (?) blew up the train to Macho Piccu. No Americans, but lots of Germans.

[sancho]

Was this 1985? I hiked the Inca trail right after the Sendero Luminoso (?) blew up the train to Macho Piccu. No Americans, but lots of Germans.

I should have written that there was a solid decade of no north american missionaries in Peru. I arrived in 1996, which is a year after the church started sending north americans there again. There were 120 missionaries in my mission, and only 7 were north american.

When I say I was a novelty/celebrity, I was referring mostly to my status within the LDS Church.

Callao is not a tourist city at all. It is a port city. The people there had not seen north american sailors for a long time. They had dealt with Russian sailors, though, and many people in Callao assumed I was Russian. I got called "Ruso" on a routine basis.

By the time I arrived in Cusco in 1997, the people in Inca country were used to American tourists but still not used to North American missionaries. In every ward/branch I served in, I was the first American there in over a decade.

Anyway, that's pretty amazing that you were there in 1985. I thought our tourism was basically nonexistent at that time.

When I was serving in Ollantaytambo, my companion and I would try to guess the country of origin of tourists before talking with them. It was a fun game.

[LA Ute]

Was this 1985? I hiked the Inca trail right after the Sendero Luminoso (?) blew up the train to Macho Piccu. No Americans, but lots of Germans.

These assassinations probably had a lot to do with reductions in North American missionary activity in the country:

Two Mormon missionaries killed in Peru (https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/08/23/Two-Mormon-missionaries-killed-in-Peru/4502651384000/)

This was 1990. I remember feeling shocked and very sad (not to mention angry). These victims were Peruvians, and it was the Shining Path that murdered them, but the year before two North Americans were murdered in Bolivia by another radical leftist group (https://apnews.com/20c765bda8046e8c1cef48bfba222745). The two elders were opening the door to their apartment when the killers shot them -- surely after lying in wait for them.

Imagine being the families of those four missionaries.

[Rocker Ute]

With GC coming in less than two weeks, the rumor mill of impending changes is at an all-time high. I think a lot of these rumors are actually just people's wish lists, but I'm curious what people have been hearing is coming down the pipeline.

FWIW - We had a GA at our last Stake Conference and in the adult meeting he mentioned that he expected the new youth program that encompasses everything for both YM/YW 8 and up would be announced in March of this year - since the month is almost over - will that be the big reveal in GC? He was also in charge of the church handbooks and told us to throw away our paper copies they had been so drastically revamped.

[sancho]

With GC coming in less than two weeks, the rumor mill of impending changes is at an all-time high. I think a lot of these rumors are actually just people's wish lists, but I'm curious what people have been hearing is coming down the pipeline.


Every rumor I've heard:

- Removal of stake auxillaries
- Shorter missions, missions only within home nation
- Coffee/tea will be removed from Word of Wisdom
- Garments will be temple clothes only

Hmmm, I guess I haven't heard that many. I'm not very connected to rumor mills, though. This board is my primary source.

Of the rumors I listed, I think I'm only hoping for the first one. The others are all meh.

[sancho]

FWIW - We had a GA at our last Stake Conference and in the adult meeting he mentioned that he expected the new youth program that encompasses everything for both YM/YW 8 and up would be announced in March of this year - since the month is almost over - will that be the big reveal in GC? He was also in charge of the church handbooks and told us to throw away our paper copies they had been so drastically revamped.

If they announce it in March, I would think we'd just transition immediately instead of waiting until January. We're in limbo now, not knowing really what to plan.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Every rumor I've heard:

- Removal of stake auxillaries
- Shorter missions, missions only within home nation
- Coffee/tea will be removed from Word of Wisdom
- Garments will be temple clothes only

Hmmm, I guess I haven't heard that many. I'm not very connected to rumor mills, though. This board is my primary source.

Of the rumors I listed, I think I'm only hoping for the first one. The others are all meh.

Man, I'd be thrilled about this one for both me and my wife. I work outside a bunch during the summer and even though I opt out of garments more and more these days, I'd love to do without the guilt hesitation. Also, I'd take my wife's pre-endowment underwear choices over her post-endowment underwear choices anytime.

Having said that, I give the possibility of that happening about 2%.

[Rocker Ute]

If they announce it in March, I would think we'd just transition immediately instead of waiting until January. We're in limbo now, not knowing really what to plan.

I think the big challenge would be learning what the new program is and implementing it. Particularly if what the YM and YW do is parallel, and if it encompasses both Primary and the Youth Organizations - and has a scouting component to it... that might take some time to learn and do. For example when they dropped HT/VT in April they gave until August to fully implement.


However, they have sent around a letter regarding scouting and basically June is the cut off and when they've given scouts permission to go do their own thing, but there is to be no recruiting of leaders, and no use of the building for scout purposes after the end of the year.

[sancho]

I think the big challenge would be learning what the new program is and implementing it. Particularly if what the YM and YW do is parallel, and if it encompasses both Primary and the Youth Organizations - and has a scouting component to it... that might take some time to learn and do. For example when they dropped HT/VT in April they gave until August to fully implement.


However, they have sent around a letter regarding scouting and basically June is the cut off and when they've given scouts permission to go do their own thing, but there is to be no recruiting of leaders, and no use of the building for scout purposes after the end of the year.

Well, I hope your rumor about announcing something is correct. It would be nice to have some direction. Right now, we are trying to do the following in YM:

Week 1: combine with YW
Week 2: service project
Week 3: game night
Week 4: skills night

It's a pretty good system, but it's very hard to come up with service projects in the winter.

Some leaders want more Saturday excursions, some don't want any. My son is in YM, so I like the idea of cool Saturday excursions (biking, hiking). But I can understand that other leaders want to keep their saturdays free.

[LA Ute]

With GC coming in less than two weeks, the rumor mill of impending changes is at an all-time high. I think a lot of these rumors are actually just people's wish lists, but I'm curious what people have been hearing is coming down the pipeline.

FWIW - We had a GA at our last Stake Conference and in the adult meeting he mentioned that he expected the new youth program that encompasses everything for both YM/YW 8 and up would be announced in March of this year - since the month is almost over - will that be the big reveal in GC? He was also in charge of the church handbooks and told us to throw away our paper copies they had been so drastically revamped.

I heard that a huge new building is going up across the street from Temple Square. It will house all the rumors that have emerged in the last 12 months. x:)x

[Rocker Ute]

Well, I hope your rumor about announcing something is correct. It would be nice to have some direction. Right now, we are trying to do the following in YM:

Week 1: combine with YW
Week 2: service project
Week 3: game night
Week 4: skills night

It's a pretty good system, but it's very hard to come up with service projects in the winter.

Some leaders want more Saturday excursions, some don't want any. My son is in YM, so I like the idea of cool Saturday excursions (biking, hiking). But I can understand that other leaders want to keep their saturdays free.

Tangental, but when it comes to non-weekday-night activities, the leaders who like doing these are the ones who seem to make the real difference. This doesn't mean that you have to do this regularly, but we have a leader who will frequently just email the YM and say, "Hey, next Saturday me and a couple leaders want to go mountain biking with you guys... if you can make it great, but no worries if you can't." Or "Who wants to go to the temple at 5am this next Wednesday with me!" Surprisingly kids show up and the kids LOVE this guy. He is a nice guy, but not over the top personality. During the activities he doesn't really do anything extraordinary - but the kids know he cares about them and that he LIKES being with them, versus being simply assigned. It has made all the difference.

[Utebiquitous]

Rocker,
A friend who works in the big building commented to me recently and it relates to your point about effective leaders. He never said that the weeknight for YM/YW would change from weekly but he did say that the church is allowing and even encouraging flexibility in a number of areas. There are stakes/wards who are not meeting weekly. They'll meet one week and then the leaders will do "ministering" visits the following week to quorum members. They may be visits in the home or other activites focused on one or a couple of YM/YW. This is also encouraging more activities like you mention - leaders feeling like they have the time to just go and be with YM/YW at other times of the week.

I emphasize we weren't talking new policy/practice. He was just telling me how some are dealing with the current schedule and affirmed that church leadership was fine and even encouraging of greater flexibility.

[LA Ute]

Rocker,
A friend who works in the big building commented to me recently and it relates to your point about effective leaders. He never said that the weeknight for YM/YW would change from weekly but he did say that the church is allowing and even encouraging flexibility in a number of areas. There are stakes/wards who are not meeting weekly. They'll meet one week and then the leaders will do "ministering" visits the following week to quorum members. They may be visits in the home or other activites focused on one or a couple of YM/YW. This is also encouraging more activities like you mention - leaders feeling like they have the time to just go and be with YM/YW at other times of the week.

I emphasize we weren't talking new policy/practice. He was just telling me how some are dealing with the current schedule and affirmed that church leadership was fine and even encouraging of greater flexibility.

In our ward we've been assigned areas to serve and minister to -- everyone in the area, members or not. I basically have my street. The assignment is both ambiguous and exciting.

[Scorcho]

Man, I'd be thrilled about this one for both me and my wife. I work outside a bunch during the summer and even though I opt out of garments more and more these days, I'd love to do without the guilt hesitation. Also, I'd take my wife's pre-endowment underwear choices over her post-endowment underwear choices anytime.

Having said that, I give the possibility of that happening about 2%.

how have you not been killed or maimed by a possessed rake or out of control leaf blower :)

My last underwear purchase I mistakenly bought extra short garments. Don't do it, you might be able to get away with wearing John Stockton like shorts but they ride up like they think they're internal organs.

[UTEopia]

I know they have been testing some dri-fit garments.

[Rocker Ute]

I know they have been testing some dri-fit garments.

New styles online as we speak.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UtahsMrSports]

My go-to source for conference rumors is @TheStakeClerk. He (mostly) nailed it with the 2 hour church.

He is hearing that we are going to see a sharp uptick in the number of temples.

[LA Ute]

He is hearing that we are going to see a sharp uptick in the number of temples.

FWIW, we have a current GA in our ward who says the same thing.

[concerned]

FWIW, we have a current GA in our ward who says the same thing.


According to some in my book group, the coffee/tea WOW rumor has legs, because the ban is inhibiting missionary work in Asia. In their work, they interface with higher-ups in the Church, so they might be on to something.

[Scratch]

According to some in my book group, the coffee/tea WOW rumor has legs, because the ban is inhibiting missionary work in Asia. In their work, they interface with higher-ups in the Church, so they might be on to something.

I could easily see them saying that the word of wisdom prohibitions are not barriers to baptism or full membership in good standing for converts. That would actually track the history of the WOW, where it was initially just general advice that was later turned to a commandment after the church's membership had had the opportunity to acclimate to it. In other words, it would essentially be a micro, individual implementation of that historical macro principle.

[concerned]

I could easily see them saying that the word of wisdom prohibitions are not barriers to baptism or full membership in good standing for converts. That would actually track the history of the WOW, where it was initially just general advice that was later turned to a commandment after the church's membership had had the opportunity to acclimate to it. In other words, it would essentially be a micro, individual implementation of that historical macro principle.

You could be baptized, you can go to temple, but you still couldn't go to BYU.

[Scratch]

You could be baptized, you can go to temple, but you still couldn't go to BYU.

So it would have multiple blessings for those individuals.

[concerned]

So it would have multiple blessings for those individuals.

But it will hurt the Asian BYU sports TV market

[Rocker Ute]

You could be baptized, you can go to temple, but you still couldn't go to BYU.

Just like a beard AND independent thought!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

From the inimitable Jana Reiss:

Mormons will soon drink coffee! Debunking a dubious General Conference rumor (https://religionnews.com/2019/03/30/mormons-will-soon-drink-coffee-debunking-a-dubious-general-conference-rumor/)

[sancho]

From the inimitable Jana Reiss:
(https://religionnews.com/2019/03/30/mormons-will-soon-drink-coffee-debunking-a-dubious-general-conference-rumor/)

Should I know this name?

[DrumNFeather]

Should I know this name?

She does a lot of research on why millenials are leaving the church, etc. Has a pretty good presence on the SLTrib. May have been involved in the origins of Ordain Women, but I can't remember.

[chrisrenrut]

She does a lot of research on why millenials are leaving the church, etc. Has a pretty good presence on the SLTrib. May have been involved in the origins of Ordain Women, but I can't remember.

And she didn’t actually debunk anything. She admitted she’s just as clueless as the rest of us.

[LA Ute]

Should I know this name?

She writes a lot about the church, leans progressive, is pretty fair in my experience reading her stuff. I usually hear about her work from others.

[sancho]

And she didn’t actually debunk anything. She admitted she’s just as clueless as the rest of us.

Yeah, that was what caused me to ask. LA made it sound like she is well known or well respected or both, but she didn't say anything except that she was wrong last time.

[Utebiquitous]

I think Jana Reiss' book "Flunking Sainthood" is a must read. Really meaningful to me anyway.

[UtahsMrSports]

I took a poll on twitter for people to vote on whether or not there would be changes to the Wow, temple numbers, and missionary program. So far I have about 25 responses on each question. 52% think the wow will change, 64% think the temple numbers will go way up and 88% think there will be changes to the missionary program. Thats a majority of each and my "n" is clearly high enough that I feel safe saying that each of these rumors are confirmed.

[DrumNFeather]

Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019

[Rocker Ute]

Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019


Thank goodness.

[LA Ute]

Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019

Key text:


At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.

A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.

Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.

[UTEopia]

While I am happy about the change. I believed the policy was wrong from the start. Changes like these cause many to doubt. Did God's will change in the past 4 years? I understand the difference between policy and doctrine, but many don't.

[UtahsMrSports]

While I am happy about the change. I believed the policy was wrong from the start. Changes like these cause many to doubt. Did God's will change in the past 4 years? I understand the difference between policy and doctrine, but many don't.

In my opinion, and maybe its a hope, is that had this policy not been leaked and the leaders had a chance to discuss it further, they may have come to the conclusions of today. I think the fact that it got leaked, they felt their hand was forced and went with it.

[mUUser]

...….I believed the policy was wrong from the start.......

Yeah anybody with an ounce of common sense did. Gonna happily this one behind us.

[LA Ute]

Looks like the November 2015 policy related to baptism of children of LGBTQ parents is no more. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/first-presidency-messages-general-conference-leadership-session-april-2019

Key text:


At the direction of the First Presidency, President Oaks shared that effective immediately, children of parents who identify themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender may be baptized without First Presidency approval if the custodial parents give permission for the baptism and understand both the doctrine that a baptized child will be taught and the covenants he or she will be expected to make.

A nonmember parent or parents (including LGBT parents) can request that their baby be blessed by a worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holder. These parents need to understand that congregation members will contact them periodically, and that when the child who has been blessed reaches 8 years of age, a Church member will contact them and propose that the child be baptized.

Previously, our Handbook characterized same-gender marriage by a member as apostasy. While we still consider such a marriage to be a serious transgression, it will not be treated as apostasy for purposes of Church discipline. Instead, the immoral conduct in heterosexual or homosexual relationships will be treated in the same way.

The very positive policies announced this morning should help affected families. In addition, our members’ efforts to show more understanding, compassion and love should increase respect and understanding among all people of goodwill. We want to reduce the hate and contention so common today. We are optimistic that a majority of people — whatever their beliefs and orientations — long for better understanding and less contentious communications. That is surely our desire, and we seek the help of our members and others to attain it.

[LA Ute]

Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.

[Scorcho]

I'll argue that LDS church leaders look at baptism rates the last few years and recognized it has slowed to a crawl, despite having more missionaries than ever, and decided "all hands on deck"

:saythat:

okay not really, but I was late to this thread and all of the good commentary had already been posted

[Applejack]

Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.

It never seemed logical.

[concerned]

This is to stop the bleeding. This policy is having a big effect on membership, especially among millennials.

[LA Ute]

It never seemed logical.

It can seem logical but only if one does not think it through, IMO. I don’t think that was done.

[LA Ute]

This is to stop the bleeding. This policy is having a big effect on membership, especially among millennials.

Do you really think so? Are data available?

[Scorcho]

Do you really think so? Are data available?

I know this doesn't directly deal with the subject discussed, but clearly growth has slowed. In the 80's there were years when nearly 500k were joining every year.



Year
Total membership
New converts added
Percentage growth


2013
15,082,028
299,555
2.03%


2014
15,372,337
290,309
1.92%


2015
15,634,199
261,862
1.70%


2016
15,882,417
248,218
1.59%


2017
16,118,169
233,729
1.47%


https://religionnews.com/2018/04/13/mormon-growth-continues-to-slow-especially-in-the-u-s/

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626695/Number-of-LDS-converts-missionaries-increasing-conversion-rate-declines.html\

I blame BYU :D

[LA Ute]

I know this doesn't directly deal with the subject discussed, but clearly growth has slowed. In the 80's there were years when nearly 500k were joining every year.



Year
Total membership
New converts added
Percentage growth


2013
15,082,028
299,555
2.03%


2014
15,372,337
290,309
1.92%


2015
15,634,199
261,862
1.70%


2016
15,882,417
248,218
1.59%


2017
16,118,169
233,729
1.47%


https://religionnews.com/2018/04/13/mormon-growth-continues-to-slow-especially-in-the-u-s/

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865626695/Number-of-LDS-converts-missionaries-increasing-conversion-rate-declines.html\

I blame BYU :D

No doubt it is their fault.

[concerned]

Do you really think so? Are data available?

Yes I really think so. Based on comments I have heard.

[Scratch]

No doubt it is their fault.

It's their fault because the football program is down. I would guess the 60,000 convert decrease correlates directly to the state of the football program. If only they would spend more money on it!

[LA Ute]

Yes I really think so. Based on comments I have heard.

If that's a trend we will soon be in an interesting era in the church's history. For much of the 20th century many (most?) members saw steady growth as a sign of the church's divinity. From this believer's perspective, however, since the beginning of life on earth "membership" as we now understand it has always included only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. That's not an easy concept for some members to embrace. Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints," and that the church would be a phenomenon for sociologists of religion: "the chance to watch an extraordinarily rare event, the rise of a new world faith." I remember thinking, "Well, we'll see." It hasn't worked out that way so far.

https://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/latter-day-saint-social-life-social-research-lds-church-and-its-members/1-rise-new-world

[Rocker Ute]

If that's a trend we will soon be in an interesting era in the church's history. For much of the 20th century many (most?) members saw steady growth as a sign of the church's divinity. For this believer's perspective, however, since the beginning of life on earth "membership" as we now understand it has always included only a tiny percentage of the people on the planet. That's not an easy concept for some members to embrace. Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints," and that the church would be a phenomenon for sociologists of religion: "the chance to watch an extraordinarily rare event, the rise of a new world faith." I remember thinking, "Well, we'll see." It hasn't worked out that way so far.

https://rsc.byu.edu/es/archived/latter-day-saint-social-life-social-research-lds-church-and-its-members/1-rise-new-world

It wasn't an easy concept for Joseph Smith to embrace. He had envisioned that kings and rulers would flock to the religion. I remember seeing a somewhat apologetic letter from Brigham Young as he was sending converts to the states who were the poor and would be a strain on the community. Those weights on society are our pioneer ancestors. The verdict is still out on whether they and their progeny turned out okay.

[LA Ute]

It wasn't an easy concept for Joseph Smith to embrace. He had envisioned that kings and rulers would flock to the religion. I remember seeing a somewhat apologetic letter from Brigham Young as he was sending converts to the states who were the poor and would be a strain on the community. Those weights on society are our pioneer ancestors. The verdict is still out on whether they and their progeny turned out okay.

There are a few who seem to be doing well.

Seriously, to me church growth rate is not something to hang my convictions on. I do hope it grows because I believe it is indeed divine. And there is Daniel 2 to consider. We'll see what happens!

[Rocker Ute]

There are a few who seem to be doing well.

Seriously, to me church growth rate is not something to hang my convictions on. I do hope it grows because I believe it is indeed divine. And there is Daniel 2 to consider. We'll see what happens!

I am interested to see if that stagnating growth trends the same as religious growth in general. It seems to expand far beyond LDS borders in that millenials in general are increasingly identifying as 'nones'.

I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...

On a side note, a missionary friend from many years ago who was a convert and ended up leaving the church (but has many fond feelings towards it still) once was critical of our desire to be mainstream. He said, "Mormonism has power in its weirdness..." I kind of agree.

[sancho]

Some years ago a sociology prof at Washington named Rodney Stark wrote a book claiming that "within a century there may well be more than 250 million Latter-day Saints,"

And Stark just fit the current population with purely exponential growth to arrive at his prediction, something only a sociologist could call science.

That fact that so few of God's children have/want God's gospel has always been one of my nagging sources of doubt. I personally find that question more compelling and interesting than silly stuff about the Book of Abraham.

[LA Ute]

I am interested to see if that stagnating growth trends the same as religious growth in general. It seems to expand far beyond LDS borders in that millenials in general are increasingly identifying as 'nones'.

I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...

On a side note, a missionary friend from many years ago who was a convert and ended up leaving the church (but has many fond feelings towards it still) once was critical of our desire to be mainstream. He said, "Mormonism has power in its weirdness..." I kind of agree.

So do I. In its beginnings Christianity was pretty doggone weird: The son of God himself was born as a humble mortal who was known only to a small group of people in a tiny corner of the world, taught for three years, was largely rejected by his own people, died an ignominious death, and was then resurrected -- and thereby made possible the eternal salvation of all mankind, living or dead. Crazy.

[LA Ute]

That fact that so few of God's children have/want God's gospel has always been one of my nagging sources of doubt. I personally find that question more compelling and interesting than silly stuff about the Book of Abraham.

I agree -- it's an excellent question. What I like about our faith is its true universality -- every single person will have a full and fair opportunity to understand and accept or reject it.

[sancho]

I've always been with you though in this regard, I never thought we would become a dominant religion. Even when Christ was on earth he offended a lot and had many who turned away, plus we have those prophecies that even the very elect will turn away... so...


We kinda get conflicting messages/prophecies, though. Plenty of scriptures indicate that we will be small in number. But we also have prophecies from Joseph Smith and Daniel and others about incredible growth. Of course, we've already seen miraculous growth.

I like to think there's one more day of pentecost out there waiting to happen.

[LA Ute]

We kinda get conflicting messages/prophecies, though. Plenty of scriptures indicate that we will be small in number. But we also have prophecies from Joseph Smith and Daniel and others about incredible growth. Of course, we've already seen miraculous growth.

I like to think there's one more day of pentecost out there waiting to happen.

I guess the question is, what does Daniel 2 mean when it says the stone will "fill the whole earth?" It means something big but it might not men 250 million members. It would be cool if it did.

[UTEopia]

Regarding the policy change on children of the same-sex parents, my opinion is that we should take “yes“ for an answer. It seems to me the prior policy was based on treating those kids the same as children of polygamist parents, which might have seemed logical at the time, but on reflection is not. Polygamy is illegal; same-sex marriage is not.

The difficulty I have with this is that President Nelson doubled down on the "policy" in a speech given at BYU-H by saying that it resulted from the "Prophetic Process." https://www.thechurchnews.com/archive/2016-01-10/president-russell-m-nelson-becoming-true-millennials-43657.

Sharing personal experiences he has had working with the First Presidency while serving in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, President Nelson spoke of the process they — the 15 men sustained as prophets, seers and revelators — go through when discussing issues in the Church.
“The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles counsel together and share all the Lord has directed us to understand and to feel, individually and collectively,” he said. “And then, we watch the Lord move upon the President of the Church to proclaim the Lord’s will.”
This “prophetic process” — which also includes fasting, prayer, studying, pondering, counseling with each other as they wrestle with the issue — was followed in 2012 with the change in age for missionary service, as well as the recent additions to the Church’s handbook, consequent to the legalization of same-sex marriage in some countries, President Nelson said.

[chrisrenrut]

Do you really think so? Are data available?

I think the negative effect of this was more about attrition than growth. I remember at the time there was a huge increase (at least locally) of record removal requests. I think it also drove more than a few highly active members towards inactivity.

[Diehard Ute]

I think the negative effect of this was more about attrition than growth. I remember at the time there was a huge increase (at least locally) of record removal requests. I think it also drove more than a few highly active members towards inactivity.

As someone who knows a lot of people who haven’t been active for years, I can tell you that policy change was the catalyst for them to jump through the hoops to have their names removed

Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience


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[LA Ute]

Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience

I think this is probably true.

[LA Ute]

Davis Bitton’s presentation seems relevant to this discussion.

I Don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2004/i-dont-have-a-testimony-of-the-history-of-the-church

[Rocker Ute]

As someone who knows a lot of people who haven’t been active for years, I can tell you that policy change was the catalyst for them to jump through the hoops to have their names removed

Let’s be honest, the LDS church doesn’t make it easy to drop out, so many just never bother. That policy really spurred a lot of people to bother in my experience


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This was the experience for our local congregation. 9 people had their names removed, 7 had never darkened the doors of the church in at least their adult lives. 2 were a couple who had been active members but had quit coming about a decade ago.

Lots of faithful members were rocked by this though and struggled with it.

I should add that for a brief period during this time anyone who made the request didn't have to jump through the regular hoops, they simply honored the request immediately.




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[sancho]

I should add that for a brief period during this time anyone who made the request didn't have to jump through the regular hoops, they simply honored the request immediately.


What are the regular hoops? I thought they just had to make a request in person or in writing to the bishop.

We didn't have anyone ask out over this in my little Colorado ward.

[Rocker Ute]

What are the regular hoops? I thought they just had to make a request in person or in writing to the bishop.

We didn't have anyone ask out over this in my little Colorado ward.

They've actually made some minor changes to this since this all happened, but basically it is this:

A member needs to send a written and signed letter to their bishop requesting their names be removed from the records. The bishop needs to go and confirm with them that this is their request and review with them that they understand the consequences - specifically any baptismal or temple covenants they make are void and that if they are to return they will need to be baptized again. Then the bishop submits it to the Stake President and writes a letter to the person again outlining the consequences and letting them know they have 30 days to rescind their request. After that 30 days, the stake president sends the request to church HQ and the name is removed.

What has been changed since is that they will waive the 30 day wait period if you request it and process it immediately; or if a request is made directly to church HQ, that request will be sent to the Stake President and if there is no response by the SP in 60 days they'll remove your records.

So, it isn't climbing Everest. But during that time when the old policy came out, if you made the request they simply cut out the whole bishop and stake president and waiting period part and honored it. Some might scoff at the waiting period, but I actually had a friend whose daughter made this request, then after talking to her mom about it a bit and understanding the consequences decided she had made a mistake and decided to keep her membership.

[UTEopia]

Davis Bitton’s presentation seems relevant to this discussion.

I Don’t Have a Testimony of the History of the Church

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2004/i-dont-have-a-testimony-of-the-history-of-the-church

That was a good article. I enjoyed it. I follow a similar thought process in my belief.

[LA Ute]

This is is a compassionate, well-researched, thoughtfully written piece.

A Look at the Church’s Change of Policy on Same-Sex Couples and their Children

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019/04/05/a-look-at-the-churchs-change-of-policy-on-same-sex-couples-and-their-children

[sancho]

This is is a compassionate, well-researched, thoughtfully written piece.

A Look at the Church’s Change of Policy on Same-Sex Couples and their Children

https://www.fairmormon.org/blog/2019/04/05/a-look-at-the-churchs-change-of-policy-on-same-sex-couples-and-their-children

I think they could (should?) have saved a lot of heartache and frustration if they had phrased it all and rolled it all out differently. They could have just said that First Presidency approval would be necessary to baptize children of LGBTQ parents and explained that they just wanted to speak with the parents first to avoid potential problems in the future. That would have kept the spirit of the rule without appearing to be so harsh.

[LA Ute]

I think they could (should?) have saved a lot of heartache and frustration if they had phrased it all and rolled it all out differently. They could have just said that First Presidency approval would be necessary to baptize children of LGBTQ parents and explained that they just wanted to speak with the parents first to avoid potential problems in the future. That would have kept the spirit of the rule without appearing to be so harsh.

I am not sure the policy was reviewed carefully enough before it was issued.

[concerned]

I guess the question is, what does Daniel 2 mean when it says the stone will "fill the whole earth?" It means something big but it might not men 250 million members. It would be cool if it did.

Maybe Daniel was referring to the Pentecostals. They have gone from non-existence in 1900 to nearly 300 million members worldwide.

[LA Ute]

Maybe Daniel was referring to the Pentecostals. They have gone from non-existence in 1900 to nearly 300 million members worldwide.

You’re upsetting my narrative.

[Diehard Ute]

You’re upsetting my narrative.

Well we could get into what members really are....since every religion reports that far differently.


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[LA Ute]

Well we could get into what members really are....since every religion reports that far differently.

Now my narrative is stone cold dead. :p

[LA Ute]

“It is clear that in our daily labors, in our families, and in our Church associations is a significant share of the clinical material that God has given us to practice on. This means we will experience at each others’ hands some pain, some lack of finesse, and certainly some genuine mistakes. In fact, as we see each other developing and growing (as well as sometimes when we are not at our best), we are privy to an intimate and precious thing.”

--Neal A. Maxwell, All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2007 edition), loc. 879, kindle Edition

[Rocker Ute]

What am I supposed to do with all these Starbucks gift cards and short shorts? Also, how are all these missionaries supposed to learn how long they are going to serve? ;)


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[Diehard Ute]

What am I supposed to do with all these Starbucks gift cards and short shorts? Also, how are all these missionaries supposed to learn how long they are going to serve? ;)


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You can gift the starbucks to me. Diehard Ute runs on coffee. :)


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[Rocker Ute]

You can gift the starbucks to me. Diehard Ute runs on coffee. :)


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Actually, for some reason it seems like people give me Starbucks gift cards all the time. Next one is coming your way.


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[Diehard Ute]

Actually, for some reason it seems like people give me Starbucks gift cards all the time. Next one is coming your way.


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They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


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[Rocker Ute]

They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


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Yeah I've used them for that stuff before but it is kind of a pain if you don't go there regularly if you know what I mean. Kind of like, not really destination food. Plus I've been avoiding sugar for a while now.

So I usually pass on the cards to people who will enjoy them more than me.


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[LA Ute]

Yeah I've used them for that stuff before but it is kind of a pain if you don't go there regularly if you know what I mean. Kind of like, not really destination food. Plus I've been avoiding sugar for a while now.

So I usually pass on the cards to people who will enjoy them more than me.


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I get hot chocolate there once or twice a year. Usually during the Christmas season, for some reason.

[Applejack]

They have lots of good non coffee stuff. Their food is really good, and their non coffee drinks are pretty good too

I of course stick to coffee....especially on weekends like this. 22 hours of traffic and crowd control at conference.


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Bleh! What food are you speaking of? The assorted muffins and brownies that I have tried there are not good.

And, before you ask, SeattleUte, no, I have never tried their brioche.

[Diehard Ute]

Bleh! What food are you speaking of? The assorted muffins and brownies that I have tried there are not good.

And, before you ask, SeattleUte, no, I have never tried their brioche.

Their breakfast sandwiches are good, the sous vide egg bites are also good. And their cheese danish is pretty good too if you get it warmed.




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[UTEopia]

I am an active member of the LDS Church. I attend Sunday meetings, hold callings, have been a temple worker and a regular attendee. Having said this, I acknowledge that on the liberal - conservative spectrum within the LDS Church I am far to the left and on a general liberal - conservative spectrum I am left-center. It has been interesting to me to watch church leadership respond to the pandemic. It is interesting because they must consider members throughout the world and not simply those within a city, county, state or country. Their initial response attempted to address things by locality, closing some temples and suspending meetings in hot spots like Italy, they then suspended Sunday services globally and reduced the number of ordinances in which you could participate in temples. That was short-lived and all temple activity was suspended. This week they released guidelines on a number of things but have not, to my knowledge, lifted the suspension of Sunday services or temple activities. It will be interesting to me to see how they respond now that states and countries are beginning to lift restrictions. Will they act globally or will they go county, by county, state by state and country by country and, if the latter, how much authority will they delegate to local leaders and on what basis? Will they simply follow the lead of political leaders and when political leaders allow for gatherings in excess of a certain number allow local church leaders to do the same? I certainly hope not.

[Scorcho]

I am an active member of the LDS Church. I attend Sunday meetings, hold callings, have been a temple worker and a regular attendee. Having said this, I acknowledge that on the liberal - conservative spectrum within the LDS Church I am far to the left and on a general liberal - conservative spectrum I am left-center. It has been interesting to me to watch church leadership respond to the pandemic. It is interesting because they must consider members throughout the world and not simply those within a city, county, state or country. Their initial response attempted to address things by locality, closing some temples and suspending meetings in hot spots like Italy, they then suspended Sunday services globally and reduced the number of ordinances in which you could participate in temples. That was short-lived and all temple activity was suspended. This week they released guidelines on a number of things but have not, to my knowledge, lifted the suspension of Sunday services or temple activities. It will be interesting to me to see how they respond now that states and countries are beginning to lift restrictions. Will they act globally or will they go county, by county, state by state and country by country and, if the latter, how much authority will they delegate to local leaders and on what basis? Will they simply follow the lead of political leaders and when political leaders allow for gatherings in excess of a certain number allow local church leaders to do the same? I certainly hope not.

My wife is immuno-supressed we've already had discussions about not attending the temple or any church meetings for the foreseeable future. It's simply too risky, and I'm not willing to take that chance.

We are fortunate/blessed that President Nelson with his medical background was called during this unique time. I have faith he will make the appropriate decisions.

[sancho]

My wife is immuno-supressed we've already had discussions about not attending the temple or any church meetings for the foreseeable future. It's simply too risky, and I'm not willing to take that chance.

We are fortunate/blessed that President Nelson with his medical background was called during this unique time. I have faith he will make the appropriate decisions.

My wife is in the same boat. I am in the bishopric now, and I'd feel torn between church duty and family if they start meeting again. I'm not sure how many people would understand any reticence on my part.

Also, I really have enjoyed our little Sunday services at home. We have one kid and one adult give a talk each week, and it's nice. My son is a deacon, and he passes the sacrament to us. I could do quarantine forever. For a homebody like me, this is the life. I was thinking about things starting up again in the summer, and a part of me was dreading having to go out to meetings, ward activities, youth activities, sports practices, and social engagements all the time.

[UTEopia]

I always joked with my kids that I could not wait for the days of e-church. I like it. I like it a lot.