Allegations Chris Hill Ignored Swim Team Abuses...

[Hoyos Revenge]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/students--parents-claim-university-of-utah-ignored-coach-s-abusive-behavior-232018663.html

If most of this is true, I think Hill should be dismissed for ignoring this. I'd be curious to hear other opinions.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

Completely agree. This doesn't sound like one kid with a beef. This is several incidents over a 5 year period. Sorry Mr. Hill, your time is probably up.

[Jarid in Cedar]

If true, Hill will get that "retirement" early.

[LA Ute]

For what it's worth, it would be completely out of character for the Chris Hill I know to ignore such allegations over such a long period of time. I am sure the story will be told, and I hope justice is done for all concerned. I feel sick for the athletes who were abused.

[UBlender]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/students--parents-claim-university-of-utah-ignored-coach-s-abusive-behavior-232018663.html

If most of this is true, I think Hill should be dismissed for ignoring this. I'd be curious to hear other opinions.

If it's all true then Dr. is probably done, although I could see a scenario where everybody but Hill is cleared out and Hill gets to stay with the understanding that he retires very soon.

Still, there's things that don't make sense like why he would turn a blind eye for a mediocre swimming program. I also wonder how much of the allegations actually made it to Hill and how many were pre-emptlively dismissed by the associate AD (or other personnel) as is alluded to in the article. I'm not trying to suggest that this isn't true, just looking for more facts and explanation. It will be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

[TheMightyAlaskanUte]

Dr Hill is toast. He doesnt survive this. I would add "if this is all true" but Yahoo! Sports has a pretty damn good track record with these kinds of things. Doesnt look good for Hill

[IdahoUteTroutHead]

I don't know what to think.....

[480ute]

I don't know what to think.....
MAU is a very passionate man, so I tend to just agree with him even when he seems way off. I don't think he's way off in this case so I definitely concur with his thoughts.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/students--parents-claim-university-of-utah-ignored-coach-s-abusive-behavior-232018663.html

If most of this is true, I think Hill should be dismissed for ignoring this. I'd be curious to hear other opinions.

I'd sure like to hear Big Kahuna's take on all this. He's closer to the program than any of us.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Still, there's things that don't make sense like why he would turn a blind eye for a mediocre swimming program. I also wonder how much of the allegations actually made it to Hill and how many were pre-emptlively dismissed by the associate AD (or other personnel) as is alluded to in the article. I'm not trying to suggest that this isn't true, just looking for more facts and explanation. It will be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

Here is my take. Dr. Hill has too many moat keepers. People who keep people from talking to him(wasting his time).

The moat keepers are either:

A. Too empowered by Hill to make decisions/handle situations that should be dealt with by him, or at least he to be consulted about the situation.
B. Too afraid to take anything to him because of fear of being treated poorly for "wasting my time with a matter that YOU SHOULD DEAL WITH"
C. Too incompetent to know what is important to pass on to their boss.

My guess is that it is a little of A and a healthy portion of B. I know several people who work or have worked in the AD office who feel that B is a major problem. Irregardless, Hill is directly responsible for A,B, and C.

As someone who hires and empowers many moat keepers, I am sometimes taken back by complaints that my wife hears about from people dealing with our moat keepers. Complaints that I, as a business owner, really needed to know about.

[UTEopia]

Here is my take. Dr. Hill has too many moat keepers. People who keep outside people from talking to him(wasting his time).

The moat keepers are either:

A. Too empowered by Hill to make decisions/handle situations that should be dealt with by him, or at least he to be consulted about the situation.
B. Too afraid to take anything to him because of fear of being treated poorly for "wasting my time with a matter that YOU SHOULD DEAL WITH"
C. Too incompetent to know what is important to pass on to their boss.

My guess is that it is a little of A and a healthy portion of B. I know several people who work or have worked in the AD office who feel that B is a major problem. Irregardless, Hill is directly responsible for A,B, and C.

As someone who hires and empowers many moat keepers, I am sometimes taken back by complaints that my wife hears about from people dealing with our moat keepers. Complaints that I, as a business owner, really needed to know about.

I have not found this any of these things to be true. I have written e-mails to Hill that have been critical of things and also positive and have always received a response. On a couple of occasions I have received phone calls. We have not always agreed on things, but there has always been a willingness to respond and have a dialogue. I am not a heavy hitter who makes a big donation each year so that is not the explanation. If people want to get to Hill they can easily do that. Pete Olizcek is Hill's right hand guy and I don't believe he would keep allegations of this type from Hill. I don't think A, B or C apply to him in any way based on my interactions.

If these allegations are true, and now that they are out there will certainly be an investigation into them, Hill and Oliczek should both be fired if the allegations are true.

[IdahoUteTroutHead]

Why would you write a letter to Dr. Hill?

[Corvan]

MAU is a very passionate man, so I tend to just agree with him even when he seems way off. I don't think he's way off in this case so I definitely concur with his thoughts.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Chris Hill personally just a few times. One of the first times was in 2006 when he was at the KJZZ studios for the filming of the TV commercials with the Shasta. He was a very friendly man and talked openly with people that were there. He got a kick out of the Shasta and everything we had in it and joked that he could easily see himself living in it one day if only it had a shower. We kidded him that he could park it by the stadium, the fieldhouse or the Huntsman Center and hit the showers in any one of them.

However at the same time there was no question that he was in charge of things that day. I still don't know if the commercials were written, contracted and approved by the athletics department or the marketing department but Chris Hill was very interested in every facet that was happening. It's his baby and everything has to be just right.

So where I'm conflicted on this is in one area. Everyone knew the Shah of Iran was a brutal dictator but he was our dictator and did what we wanted so we "looked into" allegations of abuses. Same with Marcos in the Philippines, Mubarek in Egypt and more. At the same time there were so many reports of Majerus being the dick of all dicks, albeit with a heart of gold in some cases, but he was our NCAA championship game. So Chris Hill stuck with him and by him regardless of the circumstance. Then, of course, circumstances hit in which we couldn't defend our dictators nor could Chris Hill defend Rick.

So I'm trying to work both sides of the concept here. I have no question that Chris Hill wants Utah athletics promoted to the public, particularly the big check writing public as a shiny product. Everything shiny, glossy and perfectly polished whether it's a diamond, platinum, or a turd disguised as either of the above. But at the same time it's swimming for crying out loud. Winslow is a $98K per year swim coach. If Chris Hill heard these allegations and there was any evidence at all you shitcan Winslow and hire a new swimming coach. Why on earth would you put the amount of work into a coverup that people are speculating for a swimming coach?

Guess we'll see.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I have not found this any of these things to be true. I have written e-mails to Hill that have been critical of things and also positive and have always received a response. On a couple of occasions I have received phone calls. We have not always agreed on things, but there has always been a willingness to respond and have a dialogue. I am not a heavy hitter who makes a big donation each year so that is not the explanation. If people want to get to Hill they can easily do that. Pete Olizcek is Hill's right hand guy and I don't believe he would keep allegations of this type from Hill. I don't think A, B or C apply to him in any way based on my interactions.

If these allegations are true, and now that they are out there will certainly be an investigation into them, Hill and Oliczek should both be fired if the allegations are true.

As a fan/donor, my experience has been the same as yours. I am speaking to the operations of the AD office. I get that not every boss is well liked by their employees, but some of the culture is problematic.

[GarthUte]

Hill is the AD. The buck stops with him.

If the allegations against him are true, he should be fired and have his pension stripped. No living off the taxpayer during retirement for him.

[codered]

Is many on here and other boards are so quick to assume these things are true and then suggest Chris be dismissed because of them. Yet many of these folks are the same who have held a grudge for years against Chris for not renewing Rick Majerus' contract when they know full well that Rick was abusive to his athletes. Seems hypocritical to me. I personally find no abuse of amateur athletes acceptable regardless of whether he's a winning coach or veteran AD.

Regardless, I hope it's not true and I hope if it is, proper action is taken against all who were and or should have been involved, even if they chose not to be.

[480ute]

Is many on here and other boards are so quick to assume these things are true and then suggest Chris be dismissed because of them. Yet many of these folks are the same who have held a grudge for years against Chris for not renewing Rick Majerus' contract when they know full well that Rick was abusive to his athletes. Seems hypocritical to me. I personally find no abuse of amateur athletes acceptable regardless of whether he's a winning coach or veteran AD.

Regardless, I hope it's not true and I hope if it is, proper action is taken against all who were and or should have been involved, even if they chose not to be.
I haven't read a single post where anybody is saying these things are unequivocally true. Most people are saying "if the allegations prove to be true then Hill should be gone." As far as the abuse, some of the allegations make it sound as if Winslow may have put people's lives in jeopardy, and don't forget about the sexual abuse claim. This is a bit different than the issues with Majerus.

[UtahDan]

Is many on here and other boards are so quick to assume these things are true and then suggest Chris be dismissed because of them. Yet many of these folks are the same who have held a grudge for years against Chris for not renewing Rick Majerus' contract when they know full well that Rick was abusive to his athletes. Seems hypocritical to me. I personally find no abuse of amateur athletes acceptable regardless of whether he's a winning coach or veteran AD.

Regardless, I hope it's not true and I hope if it is, proper action is taken against all who were and or should have been involved, even if they chose not to be.

What everyone "knows" is frequently wrong, particularly early reports. I don't think there is anything in this world that would surprise me much, but I do think we should wait until all the facts are in before making any judgments.

[codered]

I haven't read a single post where anybody is saying these things are unequivocally true. Most people are saying "if the allegations prove to be true he should be gone." As far as the abuse, some of the allegations make it sound as if he may have put people's lives in jeopardy, and don't forget about the sexual abuse claim. This is a bit different than the issues with Majerus.

I fully understand your points, however my point remains true. Rick sexually abused (please don't try to argue that whipping your wang out numerous times in practice is not sexual abuse), physically abused and verbally abused his players and many "fans" were pissed when he wasn't renewed and now they want Chris gone. It's hypocritical to say the least. Choosing to only see that which we desire to see is the real problem and the real reason abuse continues to go unreported and without investigation. Whether it's us fans looking away in one instance, but not tolerating it in another, or an AD that acts in one situation and not the other. It shouldn't matter and it should not be tolerated.

If these allegations are true, just like Rick, Chris should be gone. But the same whiny fans that cried when Rick left should take a big dose of STFU IMHO. They have no room to judge anyone who may have looked the other way as that is exactly what they did in Rick's case.

[hardcoreUTE]

Hill is the AD. The buck stops with him.

If the allegations against him are true, he should be fired and have his pension stripped. No living off the taxpayer during retirement for him.

Agree 100%, if true he should not be allowed to retire.

The Yahoo article even has allegations of the coach sexually abusing a 15 year old girl. The Yahoo comments section has a few people comparing this to Sandusky. Just people drawing that kind of parallel to Utah but this is going to get bad.

The coach, Hill, and anyone else involved should fry if it's proven they sat by and did nothing.

[Scorcho]

Hill (and his 25+ years of good standing) deserves the benefit of the doubt. I bet you could find 25 Utah football players over the same time period that would claim they were unfairly mistreated by the football coaching staff. It's just the nature of competitive college athletics.

I assume Urban and Kyles injured football players working in the "Pit" could be labeled abuse by some.

[LA Ute]

I re-read all the Yahoo articles and a few things seem clear to me. First, I've been involved in lots of internal investigations and I've learned that initial allegations only give you a place to start. In almost every case the end result is different from the allegations -- sometimes much worse, sometimes much better. A decent investigation has to be very thorough and involve several investigators. Even then you will have differing eyewitness accounts of the same incidents. That's almost an iron law of investigations. In short, it's going to be a while before anyone can draw any conclusions. So saying "If this is true, he should be punished" is kind of empty. It's like saying "If the accused murderer is guilty, he should be punished." Of course he should.

Second, it's way too early to compare this to Penn State. By every account I've read, the sexual molestation of the teenage girl occurred in Arizona before the guy became the swimming coach at Utah. (If I'm wrong, please tell me.) It seems that in the reports so far no one is alleging any sexual misconduct while he was at Utah, although it should not surprise anyone if there was such misconduct, because I don't think guys who do that stop on their own. Still, here we don't have a 60-70 year-old man raping little boys over a 10-year period. We do appear to have a sadistically abusive coach.

Finally, in full discosure, I have known Chris Hill for a long time and on a purely personal level I cannot believe he'd ignore reports of this nature, especially over a long period of time. I admit I don't know much about how he runs his department or the culture there. So my admittedly biased opinion is based on his personality, not his management style.

I really hope a good, credible investigation is done and makes clear exactly what happened. It probably should be done by an outside organization.

[SoCalPat]

I re-read all the Yahoo articles and a few things seem clear to me. First, I've been involved in lots of internal investigations and I've learned that initial allegations only give you a place to start. In almost every case the end result is different from the allegations -- sometimes much worse, sometimes much better. A decent investigation has to be very thorough and involve several investigators. Even then you will have differing eyewitness accounts of the same incidents. That's almost an iron law of investigations. In short, it's going to be a while before anyone can draw any conclusions. So saying "If this is true, he should be punished" is kind of empty. It's like saying "If the accused murderer is guilty, he should be punished." Of course he should.

Second, it's way too early to compare this to Penn State. By every account I've read, the sexual molestation of the teenage girl occurred in Arizona before the guy became the swimming coach at Utah. (If I'm wrong, please tell me.) It seems that in the reports so far no one is alleging any sexual misconduct while he was at Utah, although it should not surprise anyone if there was such misconduct, because I don't think guys who do that stop on their own. Still, here we don't have a 60-70 year-old man raping little boys over a 10-year period. We do appear to have a sadistically abusive coach.

Finally, in full discosure, I have known Chris Hill for a long time and on a purely personal level I cannot believe he'd ignore reports of this nature, especially over a long period of time. I admit I don't know much about how he runs his department or the culture there. So my admittedly biased opinion is based on his personality, not his management style.

I really hope a good, credible investigation is done and makes clear exactly what happened. It probably should be done by an outside organization.

After Penn State happened, this is the moment I feared most with regard to Utah athletics. A scandal that goes beyond impermissible benefits and other truly trifling NCAA infractions, and hits at the heart of human decency, morality and ethical behavior. Quite frankly, I'm loathe to associate with anyone who tries justifying it. Alma mater above all is an attitude that thoroughly disgusts me about college sports, regardless of whether it's some lone Bama nutjob poisoning the trees at Auburn or Penn State truthers like Franco Harris who are incapable of dealing with the truth, and whose efforts are forever geared toward altering it.

L.A., you're a good guy. So please take the following to heart. While your experience in internal investigations is noted, so is your complete lack of investigative reporting knowledge. In short, please be quiet on Yahoo's methods. The report is thorough, highly damaging to countless people at the U. and a galaxy away from being solely the work of one "investigator." If you insist on doubting its credibility, ask Reggie Bush or the University of Miami about Yahoo's credibility (The female reporter who kick-started the Paterno investigation only won a Pulitzer).

Chris Hill, much like Joe Paterno was for a week or so before he was fired, is done at Utah. He may be your friend, but I would get accustomed very quickly to stop defending him on this matter, or hoping that there's something out there that will exonerate him. Yahoo is the Mike Wallace of collegiate sports journalism. They are the best, they rarely misstep and when they show up at your doorstep, you are all but finished, because they don't show up until they've done their homework -- and always better than their subject could ever hope to do for itself

Ultimately, we're dealing with real people as victims. Discrediting their experiences or saying they are incomplete is tantamount to call the swimmers and their parents liars. They have no motivation to lie, and hardly the savvy to ensure all of their made-up stories add up. In many ways, your post encapsulates how this is already like Penn State (The American sporting public is already drawing that connection -- go read the comments section at the end of the story if you don't believe me). The "good, credible investigation" by "an outside organization" has already been done. The Freeh Report didn't turn up much different than what was discovered already about Paterno; if anything, it cemented what was reported. What further investigation would uncover anything that would excuse or justify what's already been documented?

Hill, much like Paterno at Penn State, has been grossly deified (I am more than happy to be taken to task for my public efforts in this arena as well). Their respective spheres of influence differ greatly, obviously, but within their own athletic departments, their pull, influence and power is unquestioned. So is the public trust in them to do the right thing. If Paterno's expressed lack of foresight couldn't cut muster at State College, then ditto for Hill at the U. Ignorance on the matter is not a valid defense. Hill's had five years to think about what to do if this ever came to life. He shouldn't need anything more until close of business Wednesday to tender his resignation.

[LA Ute]

I am not sure what you are trying to say in some regards, so I want to be clear about what I am saying, just in case some things in my earlier post have been misunderstood.


Quite frankly, I'm loathe to associate with anyone who tries justifying it.

I don't see anyone here who's done that yet. I'm certainly not.


L.A., you're a good guy. So please take the following to heart. While your experience in internal investigations is noted, so is your complete lack of investigative reporting knowledge. In short, please be quiet on Yahoo's methods.

I have no criticisms whatsoever of Yahoo's methods.


Chris Hill... is done at Utah.

You may well be right, and I frankly fear that you are. I just think it's too early to say. We can agree to disagree about that. I'm not going to say anything more than that we should wait and see. I don't think we will have to wait long.


Ultimately, we're dealing with real people as victims. Discrediting their experiences or saying they are incomplete is tantamount to call the swimmers and their parents liars.

I do not mean to call them that. So please don't suggest that I do. This is a terrible story and I fervently hope we get to a just result for everyone involve. That may mean some bad results for people I care about, but the facts are what they are.

[Hadrian]

I think it's best to reserve judgement until more information is known. Despite the touted reliability of Yahoo Sports, we really have only heard one side of the story to this point and there are other possible variables that could come into play.

[Moliere]

Makes me wonder if these allegations made it to Chris Hill around the time the pac10 was expanding and he swept them under the rug. Kind of an ends justifies the means type of thinking.

Of course, it just might be my continued jealousy of Utahs current position that made me think that...

[CardiacCoug]

Obviously any complaints of abuse by any coach or professor should be investigated seriously. But I gotta say it seems like horrible, horrible judgment for the AD's office to ignore these type of complaints about a SWIMMING coach.

Seems like it would have been simple common sense to fire this guy's ass after 1 or 2 complaints. Why on earth would you put the university's reputation and your job on the line (if you're Hill or one of his associate ADs) for a SWIMMING coach?

Sure if you have a proven coach in a revenue sport like Majerus or Leach you might want to put up with some crazy behavior as long as it doesn't cross the line into something criminal.

[LA Ute]

Obviously any complaints of abuse by any coach or professor should be investigated seriously. But I gotta say it seems like horrible, horrible judgment for the AD's office to ignore these type of complaints about a SWIMMING coach.

Seems like it would have been simple common sense to fire this guy's ass after 1 or 2 complaints. Why on earth would you put the university's reputation and your job on the line (if you're Hill or one of his associate ADs) for a SWIMMING coach?

Sure if you have a proven coach in a revenue sport like Majerus or Leach you might want to put up with some crazy behavior as long as it doesn't cross the line into something criminal.

Good question. I've been thinking the same thing.

[Pheidippides]

Second, it's way too early to compare this to Penn State. By every account I've read, the sexual molestation of the teenage girl occurred in Arizona before the guy became the swimming coach at Utah.

I really hope a good, credible investigation is done and makes clear exactly what happened. It probably should be done by an outside organization.

I disagree strongly on the first point and here's why. Penn State was never about raping boys in the shower. Penn State was about people knowing that boys were being raped in the shower and doing nothing about it, covering it up for the supposed good of the institution. That the allegation here, and the fact that the allegedly ignored/covered up behavior is less shocking is hardly the point. Like it or not, Penn State is on everybody's brain.

As I've said elsewhere, if the sexual assault was known before the hire (and I'm not saying it was), that's a problem. If it was discovered after the hire and nothing was done, that's also a problem. The fact that it occurred prior to his tenure at Utah is a red herring. Yes, let's continue to put a bad person in a position to do bad but less illegal things, shall we?

Your last part is dead on. Outside thorough investigation. Disinfect with sunlight.

[Hot Lunch]

Obviously any complaints of abuse by any coach or professor should be investigated seriously. But I gotta say it seems like horrible, horrible judgment for the AD's office to ignore these type of complaints about a SWIMMING coach.

Seems like it would have been simple common sense to fire this guy's ass after 1 or 2 complaints. Why on earth would you put the university's reputation and your job on the line (if you're Hill or one of his associate ADs) for a SWIMMING coach?

Sure if you have a proven coach in a revenue sport like Majerus or Leach you might want to put up with some crazy behavior as long as it doesn't cross the line into something criminal.


Because of the fact that we are talking about a "freaking" SWIMMING coach, my worry is that there is something deeper than this. What else is taking place behind the scenes that we don't know about? Why on earth would the AD department turn the other way for a swimming coach?

[Katy Lied]

First of all, Greg Winslow was and is a dick (my opinion only not necessarily his swimmers), and his methods were questionable and not particularly successful. His biggest problem (besides him not being an effective coach) is inconsistency in the treatment of his athletes.

I know for a fact that Karson Applin and Matthew Fiascone were kicked off the team (I believe for drinking and for other offenses) sometime during the 2012 season. Since then, Fiascone has been going around and stirring up trouble, finding students who transferred or quit, and collecting their stories and releasing them to the media. This article is the culmination of his efforts.

That said, Winslow was inconsistent. He kicks Applin and Fiascone out for drinking, yet provides beer for other students, and attended events where his swimmers were imbibing. So what's the real reason that Applin and Fiascone were dropped? Because they questioned his methods and didn't suck up to him the way the other swimmers did.

So Winslow was released because of the sex with underage swimmers charge, but I think that was only 10-20% of the problem. I think the other 90% was his dictatorial style and his autocratic policies designed to, according to him, build team spirit, but according to me to build blind unquestioning loyalty to him and he alone.

Some of the weird crap I saw (weird in my opinion; the swimmers didn't seem to think much of it.) He would tell his swimmers (female only) when they could shave (their legs, their pitts, everything.) During peak training week he would call practice at any time of the day, from 5am to midnight. He wouldn't give advance notice, he'd just text the team and everyone had to be in the water within 10 minutes no matter what they were doing. He'd make the women run the campus in just their swimsuits and shoes during the day, when school was in session. WTF? Do you know how painful it is to run without a bra, and I'm not even talking about the psychological trauma of running around in front of students dressed in nothing but a thin layer of lycra. He inculcated a hatred of BYU in his students, so much so that no one on the team owned anything blue other than jeans. Why the hate? The football players don't even hate each other.

I believe that Chris Hill knew nothing about this. As others have said, he was protected by his people, and nobody cares what a swimmer has to say. When it finally broke, he did interview 50 people, and supposedly no one corroborated the story of the disgruntled athletes. However, this result was discovered when all the swimmers got together and discussed what they told Hill. If I were a swimmer and I did agree with the charges, I sure wouldn't have claimed it.

I think Hill's people did him no favors by hiding the extent of the charges, and claiming that it was a few disgruntled swimmers. In the midst of his Pac12 orgasm, he wouldn't have had any time to really investigate the extent of these charges, and his people led him into believing there was nothing there. I believe that had Hill known the extent of what was going on, he would have absolutely stepped up earlier. He is now going to find out that the Pac12 doesn't allow for ignorance the way the MWC probably would have. I don't believe that Hill should be fired, but the Pac12 comes with a completely new set of politically correct expectations, and swimming is a Pac12 marquee sport.

[UTEopia]

SoCalPat: While I respect your opinion and your right to say it, in my opinion you are the juror who has decided the case at the end of the prosecutions opening statement before hearing the defense opening statement and any of the evidence.

Do I believe what was reported? Yes, at a certain level. As you say, they would appear to have no motivation to lie. Does the hurt, anger, frustration, etc. give them a motive to embellish? I don't know them and I don't know, but it is a question I will allow to linger until I here from other witnesses. Regardless, I do not believe that the handful of experiences reported by 4 or 5 swimmers and their parents tell the complete story. It may tell their version (embellished or not) of the story, but not the complete story. Whether that complete story validates every allegation made or puts them at another level or in a different light and context is not known by me and I am not ready to pass judgment and impose the punishment until they are. I will say that if the health and welfare of the swimmers was put at unnecessary risk, which seems to be at the heart of the allegations, and this was ignored, then it seems clear to me that the most severe of penalties, including termination, should occur.

Unlike LA, Hill is not a personal friend and although I have had contact with him over the years, I believe I have more often then not been highly critical of certain aspects of his administration. I am not worried about him on any level and it will not matter to me one bit whether he continues in his position or not. You may be right that Chris Hill is done at Utah and in my opinion that would be the easiest thing for the U to do at this time. But I don't believe that Hill or anyone else for that matter deserves to be tried and sentenced in that way.

The Yahoo article seemed to poo poo the investigation done of Winslow by the internal office that investigates allegations of sexual harassment, discrimination, etc and to imply that they were not qualified to conduct an investigation, did an incomplete investigation or had their investigation unfairly influenced by others at the U. I have had some direct involvement with investigations conducted by that office and have found that in general, the investigators know what they are doing and have the autonomy to investigate at the highest levels of the University without fear of stepping on feet. Whether that occurred here or not I cannot say. If the investigation was poorly performed, incomplete or influenced that is something that should be a part of the next investigation and I believe that it will be.

My hope is that the University or some other credible outside entity does a thorough investigation of the allegations in a timely manner and that the University then takes swift and appropriate action when the investigation is complete. Given the publicity that this will draw, it certainly appears to me that the investigation part will occur and I have no reason to believe that there will not be action taken. It is almost certain that regardless of what action is taken there will be about 50% who will believe it is about right and 25% who believe that it is either too light or too strong. Those in the middle will melt into the background and the others will call each other names to try to validate their opinions.

[LA Ute]

As I've said elsewhere, if the sexual assault was known before the hire (and I'm not saying it was), that's a problem. If it was discovered after the hire and nothing was done, that's also a problem. The fact that it occurred prior to his tenure at Utah is a red herring. Yes, let's continue to put a bad person in a position to do bad but less illegal things, shall we?

I agree with you. This is the part of this story that troubles me most. I think the most important issues in this matter so far are (1) the timing of what was known, by whom, and when, about the sexual abuse; and (2) whether it continued after the girl and the coach came to Utah. The facts about both are still murky. Let's get them out in the open.

[SoCalPat]

SoCalPat: While I respect your opinion and your right to say it, in my opinion you are the juror who has decided the case at the end of the prosecutions opening statement before hearing the defense opening statement and any of the evidence.

The defense declined to make an "opening statement" when approached by Yahoo (EDIT: I have since seen the response by the U. that appears to be forceful and emphatic). If I'm in the jurors' box and that happens at trial, I'm going to be inclined to believe the prosecution until some stone-cold evidence comes up exonerating the defense.

And again, what could possibly come up that justifies our apparent callous disregard of the swimmers and their complaints? I'm operating under the presumption that almost everything in the Yahoo report is the truth. I recognize there is the potential of some degree of embellishment, perhaps a motivation to make the University pay for its sins. That's human nature. So is covering one's ass in the event of major screwups by others. However, that is just adding another wrong on top of another.

We are in major trouble here. Although I do not fear any action by the NCAA, we are taking a crushing P.R. blow not just in the state, but within the Pac-12 footprint and nationally. Our athletics machine is not anywhere near big enough to overcome this hit quickly, especially if the people in charge are still running the show.

That said, you're probably right when you say the internal investigative process has to take its course. At the very least, what is good for Winslow should be good for Hill -- anything less than paid administrative leave while the investigation is ongoing is tantamount to looking out for Hill's best interests rather than the best interests of the aggrieved parties. Because if the former mindset prevails, it's the quickest way to put our entire athletic program on a self-imposed death penalty and unfairly puts our other coaches in the position of having to defend the athletic department and insist that what happened with the swim team cannot possibly happen within their own program. That Winslow's assistant was apparently a complicit party into his abuse does us no favors as well.

At the end of the day, it's probably in the best interest of everyone for Hill to circumvent all of that and just step down. He has nothing more to accomplish at Utah.

[GarthUte]

I stated earlier in this thread that if the allegations are true, Hill needs to be fired. Now, after thinking about it for a bit, I've decided that Hill needs to be fired if the allegations are true or not. He used up all his "let's wait and see" capital with Majerus and because of the entire mess that happened at Penn State, the U needs to drop the hammer now.

If there are subordinates who kept Hill out of the loop on this, they need to be fired, but that doesn't let Hill off the hook. If that's the case, then Hill needs to be fired for lack of institutional control. He's the boss and therefore, he's responsible for anything and everything that happens regarding the athletic department.

[LA Ute]

Just for everyone's reference, here's what the U's Office of Equal Opportunity has authority to investigate (http://www.oeo.utah.edu/):


Complaints may be filed by employment applicants, faculty, students, staff, and participants in University programs or services who feel they may have been discriminated against on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, age, status as a disabled individual, disabled veteran, or veteran.

Cognizable allegations of discrimination - including sexual harassment and retaliation - will be investigated by the Office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action (OEO/AA).

According to the reports so far, OEO was the entity that investigated this matter. I wonder how far their investigation went. It seems to me that any sexual abuse or harassment of athletes, or racial discrimination (the reaction to the Martin Luther King Day joke, for example) would fall under the OEO's authority. The coach being an over-the-top jerk, or endangering the athletes' safety, would not. That would seem to be the Athletic Department's job.

There's a lot more to be known about this. I am not saying that in defense of anyone. I want it all to come out.

EDIT: UTEopia's post reminds me that the female victim came forward only a couple of weeks ago. That means the OEO could not have investigated her claims. So that still needs to be looked into thoroughly. If sexual abuse was going on, at the U. of U., under this coach, then this matter takes on a very different level of seriousness.

[UTEopia]

So I started telling my wife about this and in doing so remembered the Pit as operated by Urban. That could certainly have been characterized as abusive and undoubtedly left guys dizzy and almost blacking out. Does pushing a 50 pound weight back and forth across the dirt infield in 95 degree heat put someone at risk? If they do it for 30 minutes? if they do it for 45? How about carrying a 50 lb weight over your head for multiple circuits of the field and not being allowed to lower it for 30 or 45 minutes? How about rolling across the infield and then bear walking 50 yards back and doing that over and over and over again? Or rolling a 50 gallon drum? Did guys puke? yes. Did they get dizzy? yes. Where is the line? Kyle still employs some of these things but not to the extent or duration that Urban did. Doctors, trainers, administrators, etc are on hand and have seen all of these things done. Where is the line? Are these the equivalent of what is reported by these swimmers and their parents to Yahoo? I am not a swimmer, I don't know.

As for the sexual conduct allegations, it appears that although the conduct occurred over 6 years ago, the victim did not report the conduct to ASU until recently. If that is true I don't see how the U or Hill can be at fault for hiring him in the first place. Now facts may come to light that tell a different story, but for the time being that timeline and the U's response to the reporting of it seems to be timely and appropriate.

[Scratch]

A couple of minor points.

First, I see people keep referring to this as a "coverup." A coverup is when affirmative steps are taken to keep something quiet and out of the public eye. I don't recall anything in the Yahoo article saying that there was a coverup; rather, it dealt with a failure to act in the first place. Obviously, if the underlying behavior warranted actions then this is a serious issue, but it isn't a coverup.

Second, the most interesting thing to me was that the Yahoo article seemed to rely heavily on smoking gun type original source documents. If I recall correctly, there were references to "stacks of letters" or "piles of letters" or something like that that Yahoo obtained. However, I don't believe the article ever cites to any specific allegations that were contained in the letters. Rather, the only quotes from letters are things like "human decency has been violated." It seems odd that the writer wouldn't quote to direct language outlining the inappropriate behavior. If you're going to write a powerful expose, those are the details you want in there, and you probably want to include images of the letters as well. While it may end up meaning nothing, this stood out to me. Oh, and if there had been a coverup, you can bet that these letters would not have still existed for Yahoo to obtain in an open records request.

[Devildog]

Wow.

The sexual allegations aside...

The rest of these "atrocities" committed by the coach and mentioned in this article... are little league antics compared to a single day in Marine Corps boot-camp... and there are a couple hundred thousand jarheads running around on active duty... not crying to the media about their abuse.

Now we need to fire the AD after really only hearing one side of the story from the media that we know sells sensationalism?

[Scratch]

One more thing. With Penn State, the damning bombshells were evidence that Paterno and the PSU higher-ups knew about Sandusky's behavior and did nothing about it. Here, I have yet to see any evidence, even tetimonial, that Hill knew about what was actually happening. Now, you can argue that maybe he should have known, and that may be enough for him to lose his job, but there's a big difference between an AD not knowing something he should know and an AD and an AD affirmatively knowing something and not taking appropriate actions.

All that said, I agree with Garth that the most important thing is looking out for the PR consequences, so even if there isn't evidence of actual knowledge at this point it would probably be appropriate for a suspension pending the results of an investigation.

[Hoyos Revenge]

A couple of minor points.

First, I see people keep referring to this as a "coverup." A coverup is when affirmative steps are taken to keep something quiet and out of the public eye. I don't recall anything in the Yahoo article saying that there was a coverup; rather, it dealt with a failure to act in the first place. Obviously, if the underlying behavior warranted actions then this is a serious issue, but it isn't a coverup.



And I might offer as a counter that this is swimming and the only way for it to come to the public eye would be action by the University. That as long as the U turned a blind eye, no one was going to know because who was going to bother to find out. I honestly wonder if the failure to act was a decision made because firing the coach and having the story come out would be worse. In essence a cover up in plain sight.

[Snowman]

He inculcated a hatred of BYU in his students, so much so that no one on the team owned anything blue other than jeans.

Goes to show, everyone has their good points.

[UTEopia]

And I might offer as a counter that this is swimming and the only way for it to come to the public eye would be action by the University. That as long as the U turned a blind eye, no one was going to know because who was going to bother to find out. I honestly wonder if the failure to act was a decision made because firing the coach and having the story come out would be worse. In essence a cover up in plain sight.


Firing may have given credence to the reports, but there is no way anyone is naive enough to believe that in this day and age allegations of improper conduct can be kept from the public. These swimmers and their parents had many channels open to them for taking these allegations public. The fact that they are public now is example 1 that there was nothing to prevent them from going to the media or the digital world to air their grievances. This in not intended to be an indictment of the swimmers or their parents or an attempt to discredit them in anyway, simply that I believe your speculation is lacking in logic and fact.

[Devildog]

Hey maybe this is a lot of whining from a few crybabies on the swimteam.

[OrangeUte]

This may have already been alluded to. But, my fear is that Hill swept this under the rug to avoid any embarrassment in 2010 when the PAC 12 came calling or in 2011 when we officially joined and had the Capitol step festivities.

The cover up is always the worst part. Sure the U would have fired a coach who was abusive to players (that's all you can pin on the U at this point in time) but that's noble in my opinion even if you are the one who hired him.

Also, was any police report made? Any escalation to the university president or ncaa? Those are some holes I would like to have filled in based on what these parents and athletes claim happened.

[mUUser]

.....
I am reminded of my high school choir director. He was good, and we had a good choir. He also used anger and fear as his primary means of motivation. There would be reports to school administrators about his yelling, throwing chairs against the wall etc.........


He used fear and anger for what?.....to get kids to sing on key? :rofl:

[Hoyos Revenge]

Firing may have given credence to the reports, but there is no way anyone is naive enough to believe that in this day and age allegations of improper conduct can be kept from the public. These swimmers and their parents had many channels open to them for taking these allegations public. The fact that they are public now is example 1 that there was nothing to prevent them from going to the media or the digital world to air their grievances. This in not intended to be an indictment of the swimmers or their parents or an attempt to discredit them in anyway, simply that I believe your speculation is lacking in logic and fact.

Really? How many more of these scandals need to happen where we say the exact same thing? In fact everytime one comes up everyone says, "how did they expect to keep that quiet." I find shocking that you could think this wasn't a possibility.

[Moliere]

If Hill does get fired, at least he won't be picking your next basketball coach. Sorry, just trying to find the silver lining.

[LA Ute]

If Hill does get fired, at least he won't be picking your next basketball coach. Sorry, just trying to find the silver lining.

Come on, Moliere.

[UTEopia]

Really? How many more of these scandals need to happen where we say the exact same thing? In fact everytime one comes up everyone says, "how did they expect to keep that quiet." I find shocking that you could think this wasn't a possibility.



So let me get this straight, you are not speculating that this is what in fact was the thought process of Hill and others. You believe that it was their thought process and you have some evidence to support this belief.

[Hoyos Revenge]

So let me get this straight, you are not speculating that this is what in fact was the thought process of Hill and others. You believe that it was their thought process and you have some evidence to support this belief.

Fine if we're going to get snarky over people offering reasons as to how this might have happened. First this did go on for five years without so much as an investigation until 2012. This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act. The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.

Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. And then you're seriously going to get snarky with me and act like it isn't only possible that maybe probably that the powers that be thought this was swimming and that nothing would come from it.

Sure.

[LA Ute]

Fine if we're going to get snarky over people offering reasons as to how this might have happened. First this did go on for five years without so much as an investigation until 2012. This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act. The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.

Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. And then you're seriously going to get snarky with me and act like it isn't only possible that maybe probably that the powers that be thought this was swimming and that nothing would come from it.


Sure.


I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

[big z]

I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

[LA Ute]

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

Good questions. I want this entire story out as soon as it can be responsibly put together. The U's statement (http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/utes/55978063-89/university-winslow-coach-fiascone.html.csp):


"Though we cannot comment on the specific allegations at this time, the university does not tolerate misconduct or inappropriate behavior by any member of our community," the statement read. "Greg Winslow was relieved of his duties as swim coach earlier this week and will have no further contact with our student-athletes. The university is investigating the reported incidents and our previous responses to them."

Good.

[UTEopia]

This included overlooking a note from Dr. Keith Henschen in the College of Health in 2008 saying that "felt that the communication from the [Utah] coaching staff was negative, humiliating, and disrespectful the majority of time. Incidentally, others on the team expressed to me exactly the same sentiments. "

That alone means the athletic department had knowledge at that point and didn't act.

I have a couple of problems with your conclusions. First, How do you know that there was no action taken? Second, what exactly do you think that letter by Henschen gave them notice of? That Winslow was a total dick to this kid? That others on the team thought he was a total dick to that kid and possibly to them as well? Unfortunately, it is my experience that a significant percentage of coaches are dicks and that they communicate in a negative, humiliating and disrespectful manner the majority of the time with some people. Some coaches are able to restrict that to the coaching arena and maintain fairly normal relationships with players off the field. Some are not. I have worked with and around a number of people whose communication style is negative, humiliating and disrespectful most of the time. Are they jerks? Yes. So when I read the statement from Henschen quoted by Yahoo I conclude that Winslow was an dick in his personal communications with this kid just like Majerus was sometimes a dick and Urban was sometimes a dick. I do not read it as evidence that anyone was aware of the two instances reported where it sounds like the health and physical welfare of two swimmers was placed at risk.


The kid Lezin pointed out that 12 of 17 members of his swim class left the program or were kicked out. And somehow that didn't send up a red flag either.[/COLOR]

A red flag of what? Of the 25 signees in the 2009 football class, only 12 completed their eligibility at the U. Is Lezin actually right on the numbers? Why and when did they leave? Is that an unusually high number at Utah or at other places? I suspect it is, but I don't know. Were these kids recruited by Winslow or the prior head coach. The basketball program has had higher attrition the last two or three years so is it a red flag, and if so, of what? With Olympic sports, scholarships are usually not given as full grant-in-aid with full room and board. It is not untypical for the scholarship dollars to consolidate to the better performers as they mature in the program. Did kids leave because they were no longer receiving scholarship dollars? I don't know and I am not ready to conclude that this fact (if it is a fact) gives rise to some huge red flag that the University ignored or swept under the rug.




Essentially we have the entire story from Yahoo of event after event that people in the athletic department knew about and clearly nothing was done. [/COLOR]

The point is that in my opinion we do not have the entire story from Yahoo. We have quotes from a handful of former swimmers and some of their parents. There are, in my opinion, two very serious events reported by Yahoo (the kid being forced to swim with PVC pipe and the kid being forced to swim with a bag over the head. These are serious allegations that have been framed in a story with several other allegations of what I would call being a dick and several allegations of poor choices (buying beer for an underaged swimmer being the most serious).

I do not find speculation as to actions or inactions when all of the information is not known and we have only heard one side of the story to not be very helpful. Your comments lead me to believe that you have reached your conclusions as to what exactly happened, when it happened and that the University took no action to address any of the concerns actually reported to them.

I don't know how long Yahoo worked on the article that was released last week. It sounds like the father of one swimmer kicked off the team last fall has been trying to drum up support for his attack since then and I suspect that Yahoo spent at least several weeks if not more time investigating and evaluating what it was going to publish. I am guessing that Yahoo published the most damning information it received and it appears to have been written in a way that makes it difficult for me to really know what exactly was reported and to whom and when.

Having been involved in legal proceedings where serious allegations of sexual harassment and sexual discrimination were made and publicized by the media and then found to be lacking in substance and evidence, I tend to want hear from all sides before reaching any conclusions as to what occurred and who knew what and when. It has also been my experience that sometimes parties with a complaint do not believe that any action has been taken in response to their complaints because the action taken does not comply with the action they want taken.

It sounds like this might be the case with the parent quoted in the Tribune article. The guy who now is "going to bring them to their knees." This fellow seems to have come to party with his complaints rather recently (within the past 3 or 4 months) only after his son (a walk-on with no guarantee of a spot on the team) was dismissed from the team. How many years was the son on the team before he was dismissed? I don't know? Did this conduct that he complains of now bother him and did he relate it to his father at the time and did it bother the father, or did it only begin to bother him when it became useful to him as a means of pushing his agenda? IMO, he was unhappy that Hill did not require Winslow to apologize to his son, reinstate him to the team and give the other kid who left the team an academic scholarship and now, as he says, he will "bring them to their knees." While you may believe that Yahoo has given us the entire story and that the Hill or other top officials of the athletic department clearly knew all of the details and chose to do nothing, I have not seen evidence of this yet and am not prepared to make those leaps until all parties have been heard from.

At the end of the day, I am confident that there will be an investigation and that the allegations that have been made public will be aired out. Your conclusions may carry the day when that day comes. On the other hand the allegations may be found to be lacking in substance and evidence. If the your conclusions are found to be correct, I am sure that the media will let us know in detail. If the allegations are lacking in substance and evidence my guess is that very little will be said. Until that day I am content to let the process run its course without getting too involved with speculation as to motives and thought processes of those involved who may or may not have had any or all of the information.

[UTEopia]

After reading the yahoo report, then the articles in the tribune this morning. I don't see how Hill or the Utah swimming program survives this, I know it's all speculation but there are emails out there back to 2008 sent to Hill. Why are we just hearing about this now?

The one problem I have with the "there are emails dating to 2008" is what do these emails say, who are they from and are we talking about 2 or 3, 20 or 30, 200 or 300? Do they report events where Winslow is a dick or inconsistent in his punishment or do they report events where the health and physical welfare of the student athletes were compromised? It appears from the University's statement that there was a response to those and any other complaints. We don't know what the response was. Was it adequate and the persons raising the charges moved on? Were they inadequate to them but may be seen as reasonable to an objective observer?

Many times internal investigations are internal and people interviewed and the people making the complaints are promised privacy in order to protect them from retaliation. It sounds like most of the people involved with these events had moved on in their lives until the one father started to rally them in the past few months. This is total speculation on my part but it is a possibility as to why we are just hearing about it now.

The University and the Athletic Department will not come out of this unscathed. However, the swim team appears to have completed a very successful season and from perusing the roster it looks like it is mostly comprised of sophomores and freshmen. Unless they revolt in mass, and I don't see why they would if Winslow was the bad guy and now he is gone, the swim team will survive.

Look at Penn State. Yes, that was a huge scandal. The underlying allegations were of the most serious nature and proved to be true. The conduct occurred over a much longer period of time. The people at the top chose to ignore the allegations and hoped they would go away. Severe penalties have been levied against the University and the icon of the University has been brought down. But there seems to be a change in the wind now that there is a new administration, new coaches and the current players, who never were at fault, have carried on. They are now looked at as somewhat nobel for accepting the jobs and continuing to play for the school. The new head coach has stepped into a terrible situation, worked hard and things appear to be moving in a positive direction when a year or so ago it looked like that might never be the case.

[Devildog]

So far, most of the media coverage seems to be from one reporter from Yahoo Sports, Eric Adelson.

The sexual allegations come from one troubled girl, and were from before this coach worked at Utah.

The rest of the allegations (of a non-criminal nature) come from disgruntled swimmers that have an axe to grind with this coach, and the timing is on their side.

He may be a guilty asshole for all I know, but I would try to keep an open mind at this point.

This reporter is trying to make a name for himself, and the complainants here may have an agenda against this coach.

We shouldn't convict Hill before he has even attempted to speak in his own behalf.

[Utah]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

[Hoyos Revenge]

I think UTEopia was asking whether you were just speculating, or if you have evidence of the thought processes of Hill et al. I don't read him as saying that the scenario you describe is not possible. It looks like you are just offering possible explanations for how all this night have happened. Right?

That is all I was doing.

[Hoyos Revenge]

Here is the Link (http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048)

FWIW this blog was the one that broke the story about Winslows arrest I believe. Also as you'll see at the bottom, Chris Hill and Liz Abel deny this.

Thought it was worth posting.

In fact it looks like Concussioninc.net (http://concussioninc.net/) has really taken up coverage of Utah Swim Scandal if you want to follow

[Katy Lied]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think)

For someone who mentions BYU or BYU athletes in 3 of your last 4 posts (you even came up with a Jimmer reference fer crissakes), I think you do this scandal a disservice when you palm it off as the collective schadenfreude of BYU fans who take delight in the misfortune of the U. I'm not celebrating anything except for rage. I have some skin in this game. I am reading coverage of this in Swimming World and Swim News, the magazines that every age group coach in the US reads as they guide their underage athletes in choosing a college. I'm seeing texts from high schools swimmers to Utah swimmers, asking "Gosh, is this really true? What's going on there?" and specifically linking the Yahoo article. I'm seeing Utah swimmers and divers refuse to wear their team gear on campus because they are ashamed of their coach and don't want anyone to know they are on the team. I'm seeing a team that terribly under performed at the conference championships two weeks ago because the problem wasn't taken care of in a timely manner and blew up during the most important meet of the year.

This is a bad man who needs to be hunted down and fired, not kept on the University payroll until his contract runs out. Doing that will enable Winslow to get a job at another school to prey on more 18 year olds because gee, his contract just ran out at Utah. He's only been a Ute for 3 years, and he will singlehandedly take down a decent program because no one stopped him when charges were first made. You think Arizona will suffer because he committed his pedophilia there? No one will remember Arizona, they will just associate the Crimes of Greg Winslow with Utah.

[LA Ute]

This is an important article on the subject of coaches sexually abusing athletes:

Stand Up Speak Out (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1206584/index.htm)


It came out in early December. I wonder if it prompted the swimmer in this case to come forward.

[GarthUte]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

You seem to be saying that this should just be ignored because it's just swimming. I disagree completely. This is a situation that will affect the entire athletic department and has already caused too much damage to the university's good name. If it isn't handled immediately in a heavy-handed manner, then the damage will be irreparable. Hill is the AD. This happened under his watch. Whether he knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As for what BYU fans think, you've demonstrated in most of your other posts that you very much care. You find a way to work in your opinions of that fanbase in most all of your posts.

[GarthUte]

So far, most of the media coverage seems to be from one reporter from Yahoo Sports, Eric Adelson.

The sexual allegations come from one troubled girl, and were from before this coach worked at Utah.

The rest of the allegations (of a non-criminal nature) come from disgruntled swimmers that have an axe to grind with this coach, and the timing is on their side.

He may be a guilty asshole for all I know, but I would try to keep an open mind at this point.

This reporter is trying to make a name for himself, and the complainants here may have an agenda against this coach.

We shouldn't convict Hill before he has even attempted to speak in his own behalf.

If we set aside the allegations, the fact remains that this is a public relations nightmare. The buck stops Hill because he is the AD.

[Jarid in Cedar]

You seem to be saying that this should just be ignored because it's just swimming. I disagree completely. This is a situation that will affect the entire athletic department and has already caused too much damage to the university's good name. If it isn't handled immediately in a heavy-handed manner, then the damage will be irreparable. Hill is the AD. This happened under his watch. Whether he knew about it or not is irrelevant.

As for what BYU fans think, you've demonstrated in most of your other posts that you very much care. You find a way to work in your opinions of that fanbase in most all of your posts.

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

[Jarid in Cedar]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

Frankly, I care quite a bit about the outcome of this situation. I push plenty of funding into the athletic department. If the allegations are correct, AND no corrective action is taken by the university moving forward, then I may reconsider.

I don't have an agenda for the removal of anyone. But if Hill, or others knew about much of this for 3-4 years and choose to sit on it for whatever reason, then heads should roll. If they don't, that is a problem to me.

[SoCalPat]

As right or wrong as this is, in a week no one other than cougars fans will be talking about this (and silly Ute fan who cares what those douche-suckers think) for two reasons:

1- it's swimming.

2- it's march madness (and to some extent spring football).

For those of you that grasp at any stars to fire Hill, this won't be it. Sorry.

Goodness, you're brilliant. I can see it now.

University General Counsel: C'mon in Chris. Sit down.

Chris Hill: I'm guessing I know what this is about.

UGC: Certainly. What do you have to say.

CH: Well, it's only swimming. And March Madness is here. This will blow over quickly. Fuck the swimmers. Oh, and screw the Y.!

UGC: Genius plan! How about an extension and a raise?

[GarthUte]

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

[SoCalPat]

The Concussioninc.net people are absolutely killing us. Also, Hill learned from JoePa in how to pass the buck.

[Jarid in Cedar]

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

I don't think you make a move just for public perception. That is allowing the terrorists to win. Action simply for the sake of action can be just as harmful as inaction.

You fire folks for not performing their job to the expectations that are laid out.

[LA Ute]

I think several facts need to be established:

1. What was known by whom and when did they know.
2. What action was taken and when.
3. Who performed the universities investigation, how long did that take, and when was it performed.

This is probably going to end up as a situation that is not as bad as it first appears, but not as good as we would like. Particularly if the investigation was performed by an entity outside of the athletic department.

I agree. I hope they move quickly and vigorously on this. The only investigation reported so far is the Office of Equal Opportunity's (http://www.oeo.utah.edu/), and they probably would have focused on discrimination based on gender, race, age, religion, and the other protected categories. They wouldn't have looked at monstrous behavior by the coach that didnot involve those categories. Also, the one swimmer's sexual abuse allegations didn't come out until after the OEO's last investigation, so that has to be looked into, and I think the possibility that sexual abuse was going on inside the program is the higher priority.

[480ute]

In short, it's going to be a while before anyone can draw any conclusions. So saying "If this is true, he should be punished" is kind of empty. It's like saying "If the accused murderer is guilty, he should be punished." Of course he should.
Yeah, except for the fact that you have several people saying that even if he is guilty of the claims, the behavior isn't bad enough to warrant any punishment.

[UBlender]

While you make fair points, the only fact that really matters right now is that this is being seen as Penn State 2.0 across the country. The U is not in position to decide what the perception should be and not getting rid of Hill only confirms to the general public that it's being covered up.

The reset button for Utah's athletic department needs to be pushed because in the court of public opinion, the standard isn't even as high as the preponderance of evidence. Perception is reality and the only way to control any more damage is to fire Hill.

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

[UtahDan]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0???

Yeah, I'm not going to make any "no true Scotsman" type declarations, but I don't think it serves the University for its own supporters to be repeating that comparison.

[SoCalPat]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

[GarthUte]

I don't think you make a move just for public perception. That is allowing the terrorists to win. Action simply for the sake of action can be just as harmful as inaction.

You fire folks for not performing their job to the expectations that are laid out.

I tend to believe that Hill did fail to do his job to the expectations that are laid out. He either ignored what was happening or lost institutional control of his department.

[GarthUte]

Garth, I agree that this is serious and needs to be dealt with and could cost Hill his job, but Penn State 2.0??? Come on, it's not even close to that and while perception is reality, nobody with half a brain is going to equate some abusive training tactics by a coach off his rocker with rape of little boys that was facilitated by the university. A LOT more will have to come out for this to be anywhere in the Penn State realm--I realize the coach is accused of sexual abuse, an accusation that was not made until recently for an event that did not happen at Utah.

Any Utah AD personnel who knew of the situation and failed to act should be held accountable, but let's not go crazy and start firing people before proven guilty just for the sake of appeasing a general public that does not appear to be all that engaged in this story.

On a side note, it will be interesting to see how much this story takes hold. It broke on Yahoo Friday night but I never saw any other national outlets pick it up (at least not in any publicized manner--Penn State 2.0 would be leading SportsCenter). I went to my parents' house yesterday. They are big Ute fans who don't follow twitter or any message boards and they had heard nothing of this story. The point being it hasn't gone mainstream yet--maybe it will, maybe it won't. The amount of public attention that it does end up getting should not influence the handling, guilty parties should be held accountable regardless. Sadly, that may not be the case.

Yes, Blender. Penn State 2.0. I'll repeat that the U does not get to choose what the consequences of this will be, particularly with regard to public relations/image. This isn't about the level of abuse that has taken place; it's about how the U will be and is perceived across the country. It's better for Hill to get fired than the U to become a pariah. And I say pariah because Utah doesn't have the clout to fend off that label.

[SeattleUte]

Yeah, I'm not going to make any "no true Scotsman" type declarations, but I don't think it serves the University for its own supporters to be repeating that comparison.

Yes, it's really offensive and absoluty outrageous that anyone would compare this to Penn State. Who is doing that except cougjunkie and a few overwrough Ute fans who may have had Chris Hill in their cross hairs? I would expect this of cougjunkie, but not of thoughtful Ute fans. Really, it evinces total ignorance about Penn State, what happened there, what is still happening with the criminal prosecutions. Is there any allegation that anyone at Utah over years systamatically and deliberately concealed sexual abuse of children that they were required by law to report? Please, wtop these infantile comparisons to Penn State.

And the U of U hasn't suffered any real PR damage so far. Certainly we all know where yahoo and the Salt Lake Tribune sit in the pecking order of respectable journalism. I look at the list of the swim coach's misdeeds, and the only one that looks really terrible is the pvc story, and who knows the real story, what Hill knew and when he knew it. The 15 year old girl wasn't molested at Utah, it was an ALLEGATION about something that happened years before he came to Utah. Apparenntly she followed him Utah as an adult, but there's no allegation of sex. Notably, no prosecutor pressed charges. Again, what did Hill know and when did he know it? He screamed at students? I'm shocked! Shocked! He kicked a swimmer off the team for breaking team rules? outrageous! The parent who's speaking out (after his walk on kid got kicked off the team for breaking team rules) seems despicable. Ultimately, Hill did fire the coach, and we don't know but that he did it after a full and fair investigation. I know many here are aware of the due process obligations that Utah, as a government institution, owes its employees.

When people thought Chris Hill was the one winning those championships and making history in the post-season, I thought he was hugely over-praised. On the other hand, I also think he's been unduly criticized for his basketball hires, especially Giacoletti. Now I think the mean spirited desire of some to bring him down is distasteful. What's that saying about what happens when you deify a human?

[Jarid in Cedar]

I tend to believe that Hill did fail to do his job to the expectations that are laid out. He either ignored what was happening or lost institutional control of his department.

Which I would agree to if the facts show that he was aware of the allegations and opted to sit on his hands. If his action was to sanction an investigation, and that investigation recommended that no further action be taken, then where do we stand? If the investigation was made and determined that the facts did not support the allegations, then where do we stand? If he took no action on the allegations at hand, then I think you have case for dismissal, even if the allegations turn out to be incorrect(or embellished to an extreme degree). You fire Hill for gross inaction, for which the only evidence that has been brought to light is the allegations made by the Yahoo article. If the internal investigation corroborates the initial claims, then the course is fairly straightforward, IMO.

[GarthUte]

Here is the Link (http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048)

FWIW this blog was the one that broke the story about Winslows arrest I believe. Also as you'll see at the bottom, Chris Hill and Liz Abel deny this.

Thought it was worth posting.

In fact it looks like Concussioninc.net (http://concussioninc.net/) has really taken up coverage of Utah Swim Scandal if you want to follow

This is exactly why there needs to be a reset of the athletic department. Damage control isn't just about saving face. It's also about eliminating the problems.

[UBlender]

Yes, Blender. Penn State 2.0. I'll repeat that the U does not get to choose what the consequences of this will be, particularly with regard to public relations/image. This isn't about the level of abuse that has taken place; it's about how the U will be and is perceived across the country. It's better for Hill to get fired than the U to become a pariah. And I say pariah because Utah doesn't have the clout to fend off that label.

Of course, the U does not get to choose the consequences. To this point, that public relations hit hasn't taken hold and it is unclear if it will. As Utah alumni and fans, we are embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed. I just don't think that neutral fans in North Carolina, Iowa and Oregon have heard much about this story and if they did they haven't given it much thought at all. There is still time for this to go mainstream so maybe that will change. Even if the story does go mainstream national I still have strong doubts as to whether it would ever go anywhere near Penn State which was on the front page of every outlet for weeks. That is why I can't buy this as Penn State 2.0. The "cover-up" may be the same but the crime that set this all off isn't on that level and the public interest in this story is not there (yet) either (and I don't think it will get to that point).

Again, the level of attention that the story draws should be irrelevant in how it is handled by the university, but we've already failed in that regard.

[GarthUte]

Which I would agree to if the facts show that he was aware of the allegations and opted to sit on his hands. If his action was to sanction an investigation, and that investigation recommended that no further action be taken, then where do we stand? If the investigation was made and determined that the facts did not support the allegations, then where do we stand? If he took no action on the allegations at hand, then I think you have case for dismissal, even if the allegations turn out to be incorrect(or embellished to an extreme degree). You fire Hill for gross inaction, for which the only evidence that has been brought to light is the allegations made by the Yahoo article. If the internal investigation corroborates the initial claims, then the course is fairly straightforward, IMO.


Of course, the U does not get to choose the consequences. To this point, that public relations hit hasn't taken hold and it is unclear if it will. As Utah alumni and fans, we are embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed. I just don't think that neutral fans in North Carolina, Iowa and Oregon have heard much about this story and if they did they haven't given it much thought at all. There is still time for this to go mainstream so maybe that will change. Even if the story does go mainstream national I still have strong doubts as to whether it would ever go anywhere near Penn State which was on the front page of every outlet for weeks. That is why I can't buy this as Penn State 2.0. The "cover-up" may be the same but the crime that set this all off isn't on that level and the public interest in this story is not there (yet) either (and I don't think it will get to that point).

Again, the level of attention that the story draws should be irrelevant in how it is handled by the university, but we've already failed in that regard.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about this, which isn't a bad thing.

[SoCalPat]

Yes, it's really offensive and absoluty outrageous that anyone would compare this to Penn State. Who is doing that except cougjunkie and a few overwrough Ute fans who may have had Chris Hill in their cross hairs? I would expect this of cougjunkie, but not of thoughtful Ute fans. Really, it evinces total ignorance about Penn State, what happened there, what is still happening with the criminal prosecutions. Is there any allegation that anyone at Utah over years systamatically and deliberately concealed sexual abuse of children that they were required by law to report? Please, wtop these infantile comparisons to Penn State.

And the U of U hasn't suffered any real PR damage so far. Certainly we all know where yahoo and the Salt Lake Tribune sit in the pecking order of respectable journalism. I look at the list of the swim coach's misdeeds, and the only one that looks really terrible is the pvc story, and who knows the real story, what Hill knew and when he knew it. The 15 year old girl wasn't molested at Utah, it was an ALLEGATION about something that happened years before he came to Utah. Apparenntly she followed him Utah as an adult, but there's no allegation of sex. Notably, no prosecutor pressed charges. Again, what did Hill know and when did he know it? He screamed at students? I'm shocked! Shocked! He kicked a swimmer off the team for breaking team rules? outrageous! The parent who's speaking out (after his walk on kid got kicked off the team for breaking team rules) seems despicable. Ultimately, Hill did fire the coach, and we don't know but that he did it after a full and fair investigation. I know many here are aware of the due process obligations that Utah, as a government institution, owes its employees.

When people thought Chris Hill was the one winning those championships and making history in the post-season, I thought he was hugely over-praised. On the other hand, I also think he's been unduly criticized for his basketball hires, especially Giacoletti. Now I think the mean spirited desire of some to bring him down is distasteful. What's that saying about what happens when you deify a human?

You were woefully behind the curve when you first spoke out about Penn State, so I'm not surprised this is your response. Discredit the media, downplay the seriousness of the allegations and that the legal process should play out.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?51480-Penn-State-pedophilia

[UBlender]

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

[SoCalPat]

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

As I type this, there are over 1,500 responses to the Yahoo story. Only ESPN.com draws more hits among sports sites than Yahoo. You don't even need to get past the first page of comments to see that many are already holding Utah in the same esteem as Penn State. And this story will continue to get more publicity and press, especially once heads roll and people become more familiar with the story. The toothpaste is already out of the tube on this one, the cap is missing and the squeeze is being put upon the entire University. It is a mess.

The only winners in this entire affair are Pons and Fleischmann. Their status as lead actors in the most embarrassing moment in U. history has been emphatically supplanted.

[kccougar]

Okay, I don't disagree that if the cover up happened then that is similar, although one could argue that what Penn State covered up is worse and therefore the coverup itself is worse, but that's a pointless exercise. As others have stated, it comes down to what did Hill and Pershing know and when did they know it. From most of what I've seen it sounds like all of the allegations were funneled through Oleszcak (sp?). This was an error on Hill's part and may cost him his job. As for perception, perhaps Utah would have been best served acknowledging the scandal and Oleszcak's failure at the time of his dismissal--there would have been some blow-back on Hill and others but probably not as bad in that case.

As for PR, I understand your point and agree that as alumni and fans we should be (and mostly are) embarrassed, disappointed and ashamed of those involved (and that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not it leads SportsCenter). Until/unless the story gets worse and gets much more mainstream national attention Utah will not be held in esteem with Penn State by your average neutral fan across the country.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hill knew of the allegations. Multiple people here can attest that Hill is not insulated and communicates frequently with those that contact him. I've even sent him an email on one occassion, and he called me at my office to dicuss my email within about an hour of my sending it. If parents of 4 or 5 athletes sent Hill letters or email there is no doubt he was aware of their concerns.

What needs to be established is what his response was to the allegations that go back as far as 2008.

[UBlender]

There is no doubt in my mind that Hill knew of the allegations. Multiple people here can attest that Hill is not insulated and communicates frequently with those that contact him. I've even sent him an email on one occassion, and he called me at my office to dicuss my email within about an hour of my sending it. If parents of 4 or 5 athletes sent Hill letters or email there is no doubt he was aware of their concerns.

What needs to be established is what his response was to the allegations that go back as far as 2008.

I agree, it seems likely that he knew.

[UBlender]

As I type this, there are over 1,500 responses to the Yahoo story. Only ESPN.com draws more hits among sports sites than Yahoo. You don't even need to get past the first page of comments to see that many are already holding Utah in the same esteem as Penn State. And this story will continue to get more publicity and press, especially once heads roll and people become more familiar with the story. The toothpaste is already out of the tube on this one, the cap is missing and the squeeze is being put upon the entire University. It is a mess.

The only winners in this entire affair are Pons and Fleischmann. Their status as lead actors in the most embarrassing moment in U. history has been emphatically supplanted.

We'll see. You may well be right, but 1,500 comments on one article is nothing compared to Penn State with front page articles for two months and the millions of comments that must have been posted on them. I agree, it is a mess and it is likely that heads will roll. I am just not convinced the magnitude of the public perception and national mainstream media will go as far as some believe.

[Scratch]

Nobody is equating Winslow's crimes with Sandusky's. In that regard, you're right ... it's a million miles from being like Penn State.

But anyone who doesn't see the similarities in how Penn State acted and how Utah has reportedly reacted is just being deliberately ignorant. Hill has acknowledged passing the buck on this matter, much like Paterno did when McQueary came to him with what he saw. If we're to believe Hill, then we have knowledge that Pershing knew of the problems. We have OEO getting less-than-forthcoming attitudes from the athletic department when investigating Winslow's predatory past. There should be some outrage against ASU, which likely heard some whispers about Winslow or had direct knowledge of his behavior. We have an athletic department official with direct and intimate knowledge of Winslow departing under circumstances that are at best, mysterious.

As for the P.R. angle involved, this should be highly embarrassing to anyone holding a U. degree. Our anger should not be limited to whether this story gets play on SportsCenter or not. That mindset only adds to the problem that exists here -- many people at the U. were more concerned about public image than with doing the right thing. In that case, this is EXACTLY like what happened at Penn State.

Pat:

You make a lot of claims here that I haven't seen substantiated in any media reports. I'd be interested in knowing what those claims are based on. For example, how did Hill pass the buck? By ordering an investigation and then relying on that? Would you have rather had the AD department conduct the investigation? If that had been the case, this would have been much, much worse. With McQueary, you had an eye witness confirming anal rape of a young boy. That's an extremely serious crime, and one that Paterno and everyone else at PSU should have reported immediately to law enforcement. What do you have here? Supposedly reports from the would-be victims of extreme training techniques (and I say supposedly because the Yahoo article was eerily silent on the actual details that were reported to Hill; if you look at the letter excerpts, which should have been the smoking guns, the article only quotes general statements about the "abusive and traumatic coaching situation," as opposed to referencing specific behavior. It is also very interesting that Yahoo hasn't publicized any of the actual letters). Furthermore, unlike McQueary, it sounds like the activities raised in the article would have occurred in settings with lots of witnesses, who should be able to confirm or deny what was alleged. It sounds to me like a very thorough investigation occurred (over 50 interviews by a competent investigator) and the allegations were not corroborated. I haven't seen anything where Hill passed the buck, and if you're going after Hill you have to make the case that Hill knew that inappropriate behavior was occurring and he did nothing about it. The Yahoo article certainly does not do that.

[SoCalPat]

We'll see. You may well be right, but 1,500 comments on one article is nothing compared to Penn State with front page articles for two months and the millions of comments that must have been posted on them. I agree, it is a mess and it is likely that heads will roll. I am just not convinced the magnitude of the public perception and national mainstream media will go as far as some believe.

As far as national perception is concerned, our only saving grace right now is that this is swimming.

The moment a Utah swimmer makes a second accusation of sexual misconduct against Winslow, or if the atmosphere that existed within the swim program is entrenched in another sport, it becomes a much bigger deal. I would not bet against the former form happening. I would be very surprised if anything like this existed in another sport at the U.

[Scratch]

As far as national perception is concerned, our only saving grace right now is that this is swimming.

The moment a Utah swimmer makes a second accusation of sexual misconduct against Winslow, or if the atmosphere that existed within the swim program is entrenched in another sport, it becomes a much bigger deal. I would not bet against the former form happening. I would be very surprised if anything like this existed in another sport at the U.

You're probably right, but it shouldn't make a difference unless it is shown that such conduct occurred and the administration knew about it. The Sandusky story would have been about 1/20th the story that it turned into if no one had known what was going on, and it only came to light because victims who had previously kept quiet came out and revealed now what had been going on.

[UBlender]

As far as national perception is concerned, our only saving grace right now is that this is swimming.

The moment a Utah swimmer makes a second accusation of sexual misconduct against Winslow, or if the atmosphere that existed within the swim program is entrenched in another sport, it becomes a much bigger deal. I would not bet against the former form happening. I would be very surprised if anything like this existed in another sport at the U.

I don't disagree with anything here. If we find out about sexual abuse that took place at Utah then that changes everything. Your first sentence is kind of what I've been getting at, because this is swimming there is almost no way it can generate the nightmare of PR and media attention that was Penn State. That may not be right or fair, but reality is that when this happens under the watch of a legendary football coach it is much bigger than a non-revenue sport at somewhere like Utah. Add in the nature of the original crime and that is why I don't think this shakes the nation at anywhere near the level that Penn State did.

(Again, none of this is to suggest that this is not a big deal and those involved should not be held accountable. It's a big deal, just not Penn State big).

[SeattleUte]

You were woefully behind the curve when you first spoke out about Penn State, so I'm not surprised this is your response. Discredit the media, downplay the seriousness of the allegations and that the legal process should play out.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?51480-Penn-State-pedophilia

If you follow the evolution of my reactions to the Paterno situation you will see they were extremely responsible and well thought out. I take nothing back.

[SoCalPat]

Pat:

You make a lot of claims here that I haven't seen substantiated in any media reports. I'd be interested in knowing what those claims are based on. For example, how did Hill pass the buck? By ordering an investigation and then relying on that? Would you have rather had the AD department conduct the investigation? If that had been the case, this would have been much, much worse. With McQueary, you had an eye witness confirming anal rape of a young boy. That's an extremely serious crime, and one that Paterno and everyone else at PSU should have reported immediately to law enforcement. What do you have here? Supposedly reports from the would-be victims of extreme training techniques (and I say supposedly because the Yahoo article was eerily silent on the actual details that were reported to Hill; if you look at the letter excerpts, which should have been the smoking guns, the article only quotes general statements about the "abusive and traumatic coaching situation," as opposed to referencing specific behavior. It is also very interesting that Yahoo hasn't publicized any of the actual letters). Furthermore, unlike McQueary, it sounds like the activities raised in the article would have occurred in settings with lots of witnesses, who should be able to confirm or deny what was alleged. It sounds to me like a very thorough investigation occurred (over 50 interviews by a competent investigator) and the allegations were not corroborated. I haven't seen anything where Hill passed the buck, and if you're going after Hill you have to make the case that Hill knew that inappropriate behavior was occurring and he did nothing about it. The Yahoo article certainly does not do that.

Where's the follow-up from Hill? He orders the investigation, but what about after that? We have claims from several parties that they never heard from Hill. These incidents happened over a long period of time, and there has been almost zero satisfaction given to the aggrieved. I say almost because Utah didn't even have the mettle to fire Winslow, choosing only not to renew his contract and keep him on paid administrative leave. Hill knew of the inappropriate behavior, and is now only stressing the need to "know everything," but only because it appears the other side is ready to go to war.


“What I don’t want to do is not cover all the bases. We know a lot, but we want to make sure we know everything. That’s what I can tell you today. A lot of things are out there and I want to make sure I cover everything. We’re going to look into everything. And everything means everything.”


“As soon as Mr. Fiascone sent me a letter [last fall], I immediately sent it down to the legal counsel and gave it to President Pershing. I said, ‘Could you find people to look into it because it needs to be independent of athletics?’ I wanted to make sure I gave it the respect and seriousness I needed to.”

Why does this need to be independent of athletics? Hill is the CEO of athletics, and the aggrieved looked to him for satisfaction. Outside of the ASU incident, where is the immediate criminal behavior that warrants calling the authorities. Did Hill ever ask for an independent investigation into Cookie-Gate? Highly unlikely, since that involved the NCAA and he couldn't escape that one. This situation didn't. I get the OEO investigation because it appears race was a factor in one of the incidents. But most of the misconduct involving Winslow seems part and parcel for the athletic department to handle. It was enough for Keith Henschen to get involved, and his words should carry strong weight within the athletic department.

As for Yahoo, the letters and emails are source material. They are under zero obligation to produce those to the general public, and it's not a huge stretch to believe this correspondence numbers in the hundreds. A good chunk of it can probably be obtained through GRAMA. Because of that, and the possibility of future legal action against the U., why should Yahoo help any side of the judicial system make its case? They can get the material on their own rather than piggyback off Yahoo's work.

[Solon]

If you follow the evolution of my reactions to the Paterno situation you will see they were extremely responsible and well thought out. I take nothing back.

Comparing this to the Sandusky situation at Penn State is inapt.
According to the article, the Utes suspended Winslow when the AZ police began investigating. That's pretty much the opposite of what Penn State did when the police started investigating Sandusky.

If the allegations about Winslow are true, then he is a sadistic bastard - like many other college coaches have been. (Frank Kush, anyone?). That doesn't excuse it, but there is plenty of precedent about how to proceed. There is no precedent in college sports for dealing with something as heinous as the Sandusky rapes and subsequent cover-up.

Don't compare him to Sandusky, or compare Chris Hill to Curley. It's unfair to the children Sandusky terrorized.

[SoCalPat]

You're probably right, but it shouldn't make a difference unless it is shown that such conduct occurred and the administration knew about it. The Sandusky story would have been about 1/20th the story that it turned into if no one had known what was going on, and it only came to light because victims who had previously kept quiet came out and revealed now what had been going on.

Silent victims are like dominoes. It only takes one to fall for the rest to follow suit. If there were other examples of sexual misconduct under Winslow while he was at Utah, they will not only be corroborated by other victims, there will be someone on the inside (like McQueary) who will speak out, either forced or willingly, to save their own skin.

[SeattleUte]

Comparing this to the Sandusky situation at Penn State is inapt.
According to the article, the Utes suspended Winslow when the AZ police began investigating. That's pretty much the opposite of what Penn State did when the police started investigating Sandusky.

If the allegations about Winslow are true, then he is a sadistic bastard - like many other college coaches have been. (Frank Kush, anyone?). That doesn't excuse it, but there is plenty of precedent about how to proceed. There is no precedent in college sports for dealing with something as heinous as the Sandusky rapes and subsequent cover-up.

Don't compare him to Sandusky, or compare Chris Hill to Curley. It's unfair to the children Sandusky terrorized.

I agree, exactly what I've been saying higher in the thread.

[SoCalPat]

Comparing this to the Sandusky situation at Penn State is inapt.
According to the article, the Utes suspended Winslow when the AZ police began investigating. That's pretty much the opposite of what Penn State did when the police started investigating Sandusky.

If the allegations about Winslow are true, then he is a sadistic bastard - like many other college coaches have been. (Frank Kush, anyone?). That doesn't excuse it, but there is plenty of precedent about how to proceed. There is no precedent in college sports for dealing with something as heinous as the Sandusky rapes and subsequent cover-up.

Don't compare him to Sandusky, or compare Chris Hill to Curley. It's unfair to the children Sandusky terrorized.

Actually, it's pretty similar. Neither was fired. Sandusky was allowed to slip away silently and retire. Utah chose not to renew Winslow's contract and put him on paid administrative leave. The only difference is justice is catching up to Winslow quicker than it did Sandusky.

[Scratch]

Why does this need to be independent of athletics? Hill is the CEO of athletics, and the aggrieved looked to him for satisfaction. Outside of the ASU incident, where is the immediate criminal behavior that warrants calling the authorities. Did Hill ever ask for an independent investigation into Cookie-Gate? Highly unlikely, since that involved the NCAA and he couldn't escape that one. This situation didn't. I get the OEO investigation because it appears race was a factor in one of the incidents. But most of the misconduct involving Winslow seems part and parcel for the athletic department to handle. It was enough for Keith Henschen to get involved, and his words should carry strong weight within the athletic department.

As for Yahoo, the letters and emails are source material. They are under zero obligation to produce those to the general public, and it's not a huge stretch to believe this correspondence numbers in the hundreds. A good chunk of it can probably be obtained through GRAMA. Because of that, and the possibility of future legal action against the U., why should Yahoo help any side of the judicial system make its case? They can get the material on their own rather than piggyback off Yahoo's work.

First, the investigation needed to be independent of athletics so there couldn't be accusations of a coverup or athletics influencing the investigation.

Second, Yahoo is obviously under no obligation to publicize the records, but my point is that if you're trying to make your case that there were improprieties and they were ignored by the administration, then if you're Yahoo you want to make the strongest showing possible. That they didn't show the source documents or use any particularly telling quotes from those letters is interesting.

[kccougar]

As for Yahoo, the letters and emails are source material. They are under zero obligation to produce those to the general public, and it's not a huge stretch to believe this correspondence numbers in the hundreds. A good chunk of it can probably be obtained through GRAMA.

scratch is on it.

[SoCalPat]

First, the investigation needed to be independent of athletics so there couldn't be accusations of a coverup or athletics influencing the investigation.

Second, Yahoo is obviously under no obligation to publicize the records, but my point is that if you're trying to make your case that there were improprieties and they were ignored by the administration, then if you're Yahoo you want to make the strongest showing possible. That they didn't show the source documents or use any particularly telling quotes from those letters is interesting.

Lot of good that did. We have all the appearances of a coverup and athletics influencing the investigation anyway. When the OEO comes back with a recommendation that no action be taken against Winslow, that's where Hill steps his game up and gets his hands dirty. Instead, we only took action once charges were filed.

As for Yahoo, direct quotes from parties involved is always better than paraphrasing or copy-paste from third-party sources.

[LA Ute]

Why does this need to be independent of athletics? Hill is the CEO of athletics, and the aggrieved looked to him for satisfaction.

Independent investigations are pretty much the universal response to situations like this. Otherwise claims of a whitewash are rampant.

[Scratch]

Lot of good that did. We have all the appearances of a coverup and athletics influencing the investigation anyway. When the OEO comes back with a recommendation that no action be taken against Winslow, that's where Hill steps his game up and gets his hands dirty. Instead, we only took action once charges were filed.

As for Yahoo, direct quotes from parties involved is always better than paraphrasing or copy-paste from third-party sources.

So what's the point of an investigation if you're going to blow the whole thing up regardless? Might as well just fire everyone who anyone complains about.

And it appears that we agree about Yahoo. It's strange that if direct quotes alleging mistreatment exist that they were not used. If those quotes don't exist, then it goes a long way as to show what Hill did (or, apparently, did not) know.

[concerned]

Actually, it's pretty similar. Neither was fired. Sandusky was allowed to slip away silently and retire. Utah chose not to renew Winslow's contract and put him on paid administrative leave. The only difference is justice is catching up to Winslow quicker than it did Sandusky.

Except that Sandusky was given access to all of the facilities after he "retired" and after the University knew about a 1998 police investigation, and was effectively allowed or enabled to bring young boys into the showers for a decade. If there are emails from Chris Hill or Young or Pershing comparable to the 2002 emails from Curley and the PSU president, I will be shocked, but you never know I suppose.

[Scratch]

Except that Sandusky was given access to all of the facilities after he "retired" and after the University knew about a 1998 police investigation, and was effectively allowed or enabled to bring young boys into the showers for a decade. If there are emails from Chris Hill or Young or Pershing comparable to the 2002 emails from Curley and the PSU president, I will be shocked, but you never know I suppose.

Exactly. I can't believe how people are just disregarding the issue of what Hill/Pershing knew and when they knew it. This is the key, but no one seems to want to talk about that.

[SoCalPat]

So what's the point of an investigation if you're going to blow the whole thing up regardless? Might as well just fire everyone who anyone complains about.

And it appears that we agree about Yahoo. It's strange that if direct quotes alleging mistreatment exist that they were not used. If those quotes don't exist, then it goes a long way as to show what Hill did (or, apparently, did not) know.

The OEO investigation, to most reasonable people, was a sham. We have a university professor in Keith Henschen communicating with a (then) fellow conference member school in very direct language that there is a huge problem within the swim program. This was several years ago. Hill knows Keith and vice-versa. I find it highly unlikely the two did not discuss this matter. That conversation alone should have been the impetus for the athletic department to look further into the matter. If there wasn't a conversation, then that speaks to the heart of the matter -- that Hill is too insulated for his own good, and has little to no handle on the goings-on within his athletic program.

[SoCalPat]

Exactly. I can't believe how people are just disregarding the issue of what Hill/Pershing knew and when they knew it. This is the key, but no one seems to want to talk about that.

My guess is Pershing is largely out of the loop on a lot of this. He wasn't even president when a lot of this stuff happened.

[concerned]

My guess is Pershing is largely out of the loop on a lot of this. He wasn't even president when a lot of this stuff happened.

He was effectivley acting president before he was president, and during the alleged whitewash OEO investigation.

[LA Ute]

The OEO investigation, to most reasonable people, was a sham.

This is not a reasonable conclusion to draw. It's actually a very serious allegation to make.

[Scratch]

The OEO investigation, to most reasonable people, was a sham.

Please let me know what this conclusion is based on. This is another example of you drawing a conclusion where I haven't seen evidence supporting your claim.

[UtahDan]

You were woefully behind the curve when you first spoke out about Penn State, so I'm not surprised this is your response. Discredit the media, downplay the seriousness of the allegations and that the legal process should play out.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?51480-Penn-State-pedophilia

So as supporters of the Unversity we should jump to conclusions like people did with the Duke Lacrosse scenario until everyone is proven innocent? The only prudent thing to do is wait until the picture comes into focus. I have to agree with SU that doing otherwise at this point shows some kind of overeagerness. What is wrong with holding the outrage until we know more?

[UtahDan]

Independent investigations are pretty much the universal response to situations like this. Otherwise claims of a whitewash are rampant.

I understand that Pat is venting his outrage (whatever the sources of that might be) but if not getting this basic point is and example of the analysis he is doing, people might want to save their breath until he calms down.

[UtahDan]

Exactly. I can't believe how people are just disregarding the issue of what Hill/Pershing knew and when they knew it. This is the key, but no one seems to want to talk about that.

Who is disregarding that? I think everyone is saying that at this point we don't know.

[SoCalPat]

So as supporters of the Unversity we should jump to conclusions like people did with the Duke Lacrosse scenario until everyone is proven innocent? The only prudent thing to do is wait until the picture comes into focus. I have to agree with SU that doing otherwise at this point shows some kind of overeagerness. What is wrong with holding the outrage until we know more?

As a supporter first and foremost of the athletes and prospective fellow alumni, people who make the University what it is, not vice-versa, I find this sentiment insulting. What we know is not the equivalent of one or two strippers making false claims. They are coming from several scholarship athletes in a non-revenue sport, as well as their parents who have seen or were told first-hand the suffering of their own children, the experience of one nearly resulting in death. As a degree holder and passionate supporter of the U., I will be damned if I sit back, remain silent and give the floor to people who want to soft-pedal those responsible for putting us in this mess. What more is there to know that could possibly justify how we've handled this situation?

[UTEopia]

Lot of good that did. We have all the appearances of a coverup and athletics influencing the investigation anyway. When the OEO comes back with a recommendation that no action be taken against Winslow, that's where Hill steps his game up and gets his hands dirty. Instead, we only took action once charges were filed.

As for Yahoo, direct quotes from parties involved is always better than paraphrasing or copy-paste from third-party sources.

At this point we don't know that nothing was done into earlier complaints. Nothing was done publicly, that is clear, and it appears that consequences to Winslow, if any, were not communicated to the aggrieved parties. But there are any number of things that could have been done and we simply don't know what was or what was not done.

Although there might be more to come, it appears that the mesh bag event and the pvc pipe event occurred in 08 and 2010. Although the guy continued to be a total (add whatever and as many adjectives as you want), there have been no (to my knowledge) reported events that appear to put swimmers physical health at risk after those two.

We don't know what the investigation involved. From the timing, my total speculation is that the investigation was initiated to address the claims about the dismissal of his son made by the "i will bring them to their knees" father. IMO, coloring his dismissal with all of the other conduct is irrelevant to the ultimate action taken with respect to his claim.

Now it is obvious from the number of witnesses spoken to that the investigation went into a lot of other stuff and undoubtedly looked into the majority of allegations coming out now. Maybe the investigation was not done properly, maybe the recommendations are inadequate. I am sure the OEO investigation will now be investigated and we will find out what is what.

Of course direct quotes from aggrieved parties is better copy and more sensational then quotes from written documents, but quotes from written documents is a much more reliable and a more fair source of information if the claim is that specific instances of conduct were reported both verbally and in writing to Hill and others and nothing was done about it.

[Rocker Ute]

What more is there to know that could possibly justify how we've handled this situation?

Well first and foremost is we don't know how these situations were actually handled, other than accusations that they were ignored, including a guy who is making rash claims that he is going to bring the school to its knees.

We don't know if it was ignored, if it was addressed, if Hill and Pershing had direct knowledge and disregarded it, if they got bad advice, if the alleged abuses were as bad as claimed, or if they even happened at all. We don't know if it is a cultural problem in the athletic department, we don't know if this is systemic and across all teams or just swimming, we don't know if Hill is inappropriately disconnected from the happenings in his department. In fact, we really don't know a whole hell of a lot. I think that is the point of people's so-called 'soft pedaling'.

Things certainly don't look good, and if the accusations prove to be true then heads should roll. The best we can ask for right now is to have a truly independent investigation. I'm not happy about things and how the U is being portrayed, but we don't need to be Judge Jury and Executioner. If after the investigation we find out all of your speculation is true, and then people are defending the guilty parties, then I'll be right with you. Until then, I'll spend my righteous indignation on other more productive things.

[UTEopia]

What more is there to know that could possibly justify how we've handled this situation?

You get the gun or the rope or whatever will satisfy you. To me there is a lot more to know before I am prepared to reach a verdict and I don't think anyone who is interested in waiting for all of the information to come out has anything to apologize for. As far as I know, no one from the University is out there right now doing bad things to the swim team members and as a result, I for one do not need to have retribution exercised until all sides have been heard from. The father and Yahoo had months and weeks to formulate their attack to make the biggest splash possible. I am happy to give the University the same time to formulate a response and investigate both the AD's office and the OEO to determine what was known, when it was known and what, if anything, was done in response.

In the mean time why don't we all put our money where our opinions, mouths and outrage are and find a way to support the current members of the swim team.

[SoCalPat]

Well first and foremost is we don't know how these situations were actually handled, other than accusations that they were ignored, including a guy who is making rash claims that he is going to bring the school to its knees.

We don't know if it was ignored, if it was addressed, if Hill and Pershing had direct knowledge and disregarded it, if they got bad advice, if the alleged abuses were as bad as claimed, or if they even happened at all. We don't know if it is a cultural problem in the athletic department, we don't know if this is systemic and across all teams or just swimming, we don't know if Hill is inappropriately disconnected from the happenings in his department. In fact, we really don't know a whole hell of a lot. I think that is the point of people's so-called 'soft pedaling'.

Things certainly don't look good, and if the accusations prove to be true then heads should roll. The best we can ask for right now is to have a truly independent investigation. I'm not happy about things and how the U is being portrayed, but we don't need to be Judge Jury and Executioner. If after the investigation we find out all of your speculation is true, and then people are defending the guilty parties, then I'll be right with you. Until then, I'll spend my righteous indignation on other more productive things.

The fact that Pete Oliszczak is out of a job, let go without any fanfare or announcement of any kind, is damning. Under amicable partings, his effort would be praised and he would be wished well. He and Winslow go back to before their time at Utah. If there's anyone whose side of the story I'm most interested in hearing, it's his.

[DU Ute]

Please let me know what this conclusion is based on. This is another example of you drawing a conclusion where I haven't seen evidence supporting your claim.

Maybe his evidence is a sampling of the comments made on Yahoo Sports. You can't get much more reasonable than anonymous commenters to an article on Yahoo.

[Scorcho]

Until the full story comes out (if it ever does) this seem to entirely contradict what I know of Chris Hill. I don’t know Chris Hill personally, but it doesn’t seem to add up. And it doesn’t correspond with the job Hill’s done as A.D. for the past 25 years. I think it’s pretty clear that Hill has made some tough decisions that have been better for U Athletics in the long run, while making him unpopular with fans and alumni short term. Without Hill at the helm for the better part of a few decades, Utah isn’t in the Pac-12.

It’s irresponsible to call for someone’s job until you know more than a fraction of the story. You could argue that Penn State had lots to lose regarding Sandusky and Penn State, but what did Utah and Hill gain from covering up problems at a low profile non-revenue sport?

[LA Ute]

:snack:

[SoCalPat]

Until the full story comes out (if it ever does) this seem to entirely contradict what I know of Chris Hill. I don’t know Chris Hill personally, but it doesn’t seem to add up. And it doesn’t correspond with the job Hill’s done as A.D. for the past 25 years. I think it’s pretty clear that Hill has made some tough decisions that have been better for U Athletics in the long run, while making him unpopular with fans and alumni short term. Without Hill at the helm for the better part of a few decades, Utah isn’t in the Pac-12.

It’s irresponsible to call for someone’s job until you know more than a fraction of the story. You could argue that Penn State had lots to lose regarding Sandusky and Penn State, but what did Utah and Hill gain from covering up problems at a low profile non-revenue sport?

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7090

I'm angry more than anything else about this (if you couldn't tell already), but if there's an email in all of this that mentions safeguarding future Pac-12 membership, it will be soul-crushing. I pray there isn't.

[concerned]

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7090

I'm angry more than anything else about this (if you couldn't tell already), but if there's an email in all of this that mentions safeguarding future Pac-12 membership, it will be soul-crushing. I pray there isn't.

Based just on what is in the Yahoo and Tribune articles, it is very hard to imagine a scenario in 2009 to mid 2010 in which Hill or Young thought there was a chance that wrongdoing by the swimming coach could undermine the U's candidacy. If they thought there was, it is hard to imagine that the reaction would not have been to fire him immediately. It is hard to imagine they had any incentive to cover it up at that point in time. I would be beyond shocked if such an email exists.

[SoCalPat]

Based just on what is in the Yahoo and Tribune articles, it is very hard to imagine a scenario in 2009 to mid 2010 in which Hill or Young thought there was a chance that wrongdoing by the swimming coach could undermine the U's candidacy. If they thought there was, it is hard to imagine that the reaction would not have been to fire him immediately. It is hard to imagine they had any incentive to cover it up at that point in time. I would be beyond shocked if such an email exists.

This is one of those monsters under the bed that must either stay there or flat-out not exist. We don't know how the entire Pac-12 invite was orchestrated, either.

[Two Utes]

This is one of those monsters under the bed that must either stay there or flat-out not exist. We don't know how the entire Pac-12 invite was orchestrated, either.


So far Pat, Scratch has repeatedly and very politely asked you to back up your rhetoric with evidence. You've got none. So, what you are doing at this point is jumping to conclusions and taking a very (with all due respect) Glen Beck approach to this issue.

The evidence may ultimately support your unsupported conclusions. But right now all you have is just that--unsupported conclusions

[Two Utes]

And emails are absolute treasure troves for lawyers. It is astonishing what people will put in emails. If there is a smoking gun, it will be found.

[Two Utes]

Based just on what is in the Yahoo and Tribune articles, it is very hard to imagine a scenario in 2009 to mid 2010 in which Hill or Young thought there was a chance that wrongdoing by the swimming coach could undermine the U's candidacy. If they thought there was, it is hard to imagine that the reaction would not have been to fire him immediately. It is hard to imagine they had any incentive to cover it up at that point in time. I would be beyond shocked if such an email exists.


I agree with concerned.

[Scratch]

And emails are absolute treasure troves for lawyers. It is astonishing what people will put in emails. If there is a smoking gun, it will be found.

I'd take it one step further - if there's a smoking gun email, it would be in the Yahoo article. I guess that's not 100% certain, but it seems extremely likely. While I suppose it's possible, I highly doubt it exists because 1) as mentioned above, Hill would almost certainly have fired the guy, and 2) if the email existed, we would probably already know about it.

[LA Ute]

I'd take it one step further - if there's a smoking gun email, it would be in the Yahoo article. I guess that's not 100% certain, but it seems extremely likely. While I suppose it's possible, I highly doubt it exists because 1) as mentioned above, Hill would almost certainly have fired the guy, and 2) if the email existed, we would probably already know about it.

Yes, one would think that with a scoop like this, Yahoo would take their absolute best shot with the first article, unless they were certain no other news organization had the smoking gun e-mail and Yahoo wanted to hold it back for a second piece based on what the U. says in response to the first one. Even that latter scenario is pretty Glenn Beckish.

[SoCalPat]

So far Pat, Scratch has repeatedly and very politely asked you to back up your rhetoric with evidence. You've got none. So, what you are doing at this point is jumping to conclusions and taking a very (with all due respect) Glen Beck approach to this issue.

The evidence may ultimately support your unsupported conclusions. But right all you have is just that--unsupported conclusions

You're right. The swimmers are liars and we have zero reason to believe them.

Oliczcak is out of a job because he wanted the security of unemployment vs. that of a well-paying job at the U. We didn't make note of it, because that's usually the course of action companies take when firing high-ranking officials who screwed up and put the organization in a compromising position.

We were all ready to fire Winslow before that dirty treasonous ex-Utah swimmer trapped Winslow into admitting something he didn't do.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Some of you choose not to believe it, or try and steer public discourse into the courtroom world of lawyerese and legal jargon. The rest of us use common sense to put together a logical explanation behind all of this.

[Rocker Ute]

You're right. The swimmers are liars and we have zero reason to believe them.

Oliczcak is out of a job because he wanted the security of unemployment vs. that of a well-paying job at the U. We didn't make note of it, because that's usually the course of action companies take when firing high-ranking officials who screwed up and put the organization in a compromising position.

We were all ready to fire Winslow before that dirty treasonous ex-Utah swimmer trapped Winslow into admitting something he didn't do.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Some of you choose not to believe it, or try and steer public discourse into the courtroom world of lawyerese and legal jargon. The rest of us use common sense to put together a logical explanation behind all of this.

Except your explanation isn't necessarily the most plausible explanation.

[Dawminator]

Wow. So much for innocent until proven guilty.

[LA Ute]

Just in case not everyone knows what has been said about Pete Oliszczak:


Hill also wouldn't comment on former assistant athletic director Pete Oliszczak, who was directly over the swimming program and had apparently met with parents concerning complaints about Winslow, according to the Yahoo Sports report. Oliszczak abruptly resigned last fall and moved out of state.

"That's a personnel matter," Hill said. "He's moved on and that's all I can tell you."


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765624232/University-of-Utah-AD-Chris-Hill-vows-to-look-into-allegations-aimed-at-athletics-dept.html?pg=all

Also (http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048):


In response to our report Thursday afternoon, Utah athletic director Chris Hill issued a one-sentence statement: “Pete Oliszczak’s departure from the University of Utah was unrelated to the allegations against Greg Winslow.” Asked when and why Oliszczak left, senior associate athletics director for communications Liz Abel said, “We’ll stick with the statement.”

For what it's worth. Everyone can draw -- or not draw -- his or her own conclusions.

BONUS:

Here's a profile of Krista Pickens (http://www.pcsw.utah.edu/women_of_note/2011/Krista-Pickens.html), who runs the OEO at Utah and who ran the earlier investigation of Winslow.

[Two Utes]

You're right. The swimmers are liars and we have zero reason to believe them.

Oliczcak is out of a job because he wanted the security of unemployment vs. that of a well-paying job at the U. We didn't make note of it, because that's usually the course of action companies take when firing high-ranking officials who screwed up and put the organization in a compromising position.

We were all ready to fire Winslow before that dirty treasonous ex-Utah swimmer trapped Winslow into admitting something he didn't do.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Some of you choose not to believe it, or try and steer public discourse into the courtroom world of lawyerese and legal jargon. The rest of us use common sense to put together a logical explanation behind all of this.

Again, do you really know why Oliczcak is out of a job? You clearly don't. So, instead , you are jumping to conclusions.

Isn't it ironic that the guy who got heat for firing a high profile, successful but abusive coach is now getting heat for allegedly "covering up" the acts of a low profile unsuccessful abusive coach?

[SoCalPat]

Just in case not everyone knows what has been said about Pete Oliszczak:



http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765624232/University-of-Utah-AD-Chris-Hill-vows-to-look-into-allegations-aimed-at-athletics-dept.html?pg=all

Also (http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048):



For what it's worth. Everyone can draw -- or not draw -- his or her own conclusions.

BONUS:

Here's a profile of Krista Pickens (http://www.pcsw.utah.edu/women_of_note/2011/Krista-Pickens.html), who runs the OEO at Utah and who ran the earlier investigation of Winslow.

What, if anything, could compel Oliszczak to talk. It seems like he would have a lot to say.

[codered]

Again, do you really know why Oliczcak is out of a job? You clearly don't. So, instead , you are jumping to conclusions.

Isn't it ironic that the guy who got heat for firing a high profile, successful but abusive coach is now getting heat for allegedly "covering up" the acts of a low profile unsuccessful abusive coach?

Amen!

[concerned]

What, if anything, could compel Oliszczak to talk. It seems like he would have a lot to say.

Maybe he got fired for something illegal, unethical or just embarrassing that could affect his chance to get another job and doesn't want it to become public or have to talk about it.

[Scorcho]

listened to a interview with Chris Hill today about the swim team, clearly, there were a lot of questions that he declined comment, but the question was asked. ""were you caught of guard by the sexual misconduct claims a few months ago?"

Hill - "yes".

http://1280thezone.com/index.php/audio/listen/dj_pk_chris_hil_on_the_swim_team_allegations

about 2 minutes in.

[UBlender]

For what it's worth, Hoyo says he received information basically confirming what the U said about Oliszczak's departure. His tweet:

I got a tip about Pete, he left because his mother in law was sick in Reno, was communting to see wife</p>&mdash; Hoyo's Revenge (@HoyosRevenge)

(Sorry, apparently I don't know how to either embed or link to an individual tweet).

[LA Ute]

Maybe he got fired for something illegal, unethical or just embarrassing that could affect his chance to get another job and doesn't want it to become public or have to talk about it.

He may have signed a separation agreement, which is routine in cases of high-salary employees in sensitive positions, but in this case a confidentiality provision (if there is one) could unfortunately make things look worse.

[SeattleUte]

Here is the Link (http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048)

FWIW this blog was the one that broke the story about Winslows arrest I believe. Also as you'll see at the bottom, Chris Hill and Liz Abel deny this.

Thought it was worth posting.

In fact it looks like Concussioninc.net (http://concussioninc.net/) has really taken up coverage of Utah Swim Scandal if you want to follow

Winslow was arrested? According to this article he has never been arrested.

[codered]

You're right. The swimmers are liars and we have zero reason to believe them.

Oliczcak is out of a job because he wanted the security of unemployment vs. that of a well-paying job at the U. We didn't make note of it, because that's usually the course of action companies take when firing high-ranking officials who screwed up and put the organization in a compromising position.

We were all ready to fire Winslow before that dirty treasonous ex-Utah swimmer trapped Winslow into admitting something he didn't do.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Some of you choose not to believe it, or try and steer public discourse into the courtroom world of lawyerese and legal jargon. The rest of us use common sense to put together a logical explanation behind all of this.

So you're saying the Chris Hill and his entire staff are liars and that we have no reason to BELIEVE them? Hill has already stated that Oli's departure had NOTHING to do with the allegations. But you're sure that's a lie eh? Furthermore, Winslow, as I understand it, was fired once the inappropriate relationship prior to his coming to Utah came to light.

Now you're saying that Hill and his staff knew about this whole time? Knew about the abuse this whole time? Yet was willing to do nothing about it other than fire Oli.

If Hill was willing to fire Oli, why wouldn't he have fired Winslow at the same time? Your logic is flawed and to be frank, idiotic. But you're hatred for the AD's office is clouding your judgment.

[codered]

Maybe he got fired for something illegal, unethical or just embarrassing that could affect his chance to get another job and doesn't want it to become public or have to talk about it.
Who says he was fired? People do quit jobs all the time, even in a bad economy.

[Dawminator]

Now you're saying that Hill and his staff knew about this whole time? Knew about the abuse this whole time? Yet was willing to do nothing about it other than fire Oli.

If Hill was willing to fire Oli, why wouldn't he have fired Winslow at the same time? Your logic is flawed and to be frank, idiotic. But you're hatred for the AD's office is clouding your judgment.

And he says those of us who are slower to react don't have common sense...

[DU Ute]

You're right. The swimmers are liars and we have zero reason to believe them.

Oliczcak is out of a job because he wanted the security of unemployment vs. that of a well-paying job at the U. We didn't make note of it, because that's usually the course of action companies take when firing high-ranking officials who screwed up and put the organization in a compromising position.

We were all ready to fire Winslow before that dirty treasonous ex-Utah swimmer trapped Winslow into admitting something he didn't do.

There's plenty of evidence out there. Some of you choose not to believe it, or try and steer public discourse into the courtroom world of lawyerese and legal jargon. The rest of us use common sense to put together a logical explanation behind all of this.

Connect the dots, people! Am I the only one who sees this!?!?!

336

[Rocker Ute]

Connect the dots, people! Am I the only one who sees this!?!?!

336

Once again DU proves he is the only sane person left.

[concerned]

I wondered about that; I don't know if a public institution can sign a confidentiality agreement, but I don't know anything about an employment law. Most governmental entities can't make confidentiality a term in a settlement agreement b/c it would violate GRMA and open records laws.

[concerned]

Who says he was fired? People do quit jobs all the time, even in a bad economy.


He may very well have quit, but that doesn't fit with the conspiracy theory that this was part of the coverup.

[SoCalPat]

So you're saying the Chris Hill and his entire staff are liars and that we have no reason to BELIEVE them? Hill has already stated that Oli's departure had NOTHING to do with the allegations. But you're sure that's a lie eh? Furthermore, Winslow, as I understand it, was fired once the inappropriate relationship prior to his coming to Utah came to light.

Now you're saying that Hill and his staff knew about this whole time? Knew about the abuse this whole time? Yet was willing to do nothing about it other than fire Oli.

If Hill was willing to fire Oli, why wouldn't he have fired Winslow at the same time? Your logic is flawed and to be frank, idiotic. But you're hatred for the AD's office is clouding your judgment.

I think it's your hatred of me that's clouded your judgment of things I have to say. Because apparently there are people at the U. who are saying what I've suspected.

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048

For the "official" story to be true, as noted by this story, would be the greatest break of all time. It would take an incredible suspension of reality to dismiss out-of-hand the idea that Oli wasn't aware of any misconduct by Winslow. He reported to Hill on the swim team, and it clearly fell under his oversight.

As for the timeline of events, and Hill's knowledge of them. I believe him when he says he didn't know of the sexual misconduct prior to very recently. There was plenty to suggest he wasn't dealing with a full deck when it came to Winslow, however, especially when it came to having an affair with a subordinate, not to mention the complaints by former swimmers and their parents.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

My thoughts on this:

I've been pretty clear that I think it's time for a change at the Athletic Director position at the U.

That being said, I think people, Utah fans ESPECIALLY, that are looking to use this as some way to axe Hill BEFORE knowing all the facts or timeline in this issue are sickening.

We have heard one side of a VERY biased story. So far, there is nothing that would lead me to believe that Hill should be fired yet.

Hill has done a LOT of good for the University athletics. Personally, I think it's time for new blood. HOWEVER, the BEST thing for the U. is to have this investigated and the U., Hill and the athletic department exhonerated.

The only person that should have clearly been fired has been fired in an appropriate action by Hill.

I hope the U. and Hill can put this in the past and move on. At which time, I hope Hill decides he's done with the stress and decides he's ready to move over and let new visionary leadership take the reigns.

[codered]

I think it's your hatred of me that's clouded your judgment of things I have to say. Because apparently there are people at the U. who are saying what I've suspected.

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7048

For the "official" story to be true, as noted by this story, would be the greatest break of all time. It would take an incredible suspension of reality to dismiss out-of-hand the idea that Oli wasn't aware of any misconduct by Winslow. He reported to Hill on the swim team, and it clearly fell under his oversight.

As for the timeline of events, and Hill's knowledge of them. I believe him when he says he didn't know of the sexual misconduct prior to very recently. There was plenty to suggest he wasn't dealing with a full deck when it came to Winslow, however, especially when it came to having an affair with a subordinate, not to mention the complaints by former swimmers and their parents.

First, I said nothing about what Oli might have known and what he didn't know. Second, answer the question, why would Hill fire Oli and not the actually problem child AKA Winslow? That my friend is the suspension of reality.

[codered]

My thoughts on this:

I've been pretty clear that I think it's time for a change at the Athletic Director position at the U.

That being said, I think people, Utah fans ESPECIALLY, that are looking to use this as some way to axe Hill BEFORE knowing all the facts or timeline in this issue are sickening.

We have heard one side of a VERY biased story. So far, there is nothing that would lead me to believe that Hill should be fired yet.

Hill has done a LOT of good for the University athletics. Personally, I think it's time for new blood. HOWEVER, the BEST thing for the U. is to have this investigated and the U., Hill and the athletic department exhonerated.

The only person that should have clearly been fired has been fired in an appropriate action by Hill.

I hope the U. and Hill can put this in the past and move on. At which time, I hope Hill decides he's done with the stress and decides he's ready to move over and let new visionary leadership take the reigns.
I commend you on your objectivity PU. I hope there is nothing to the story but will remain in wait until we know something of substance from reliable, proven sources. As I stated before, if guilt is found, punishment should be dealt.

I only differ from you in that if nothing of note is found, I would like to see Hill hang around longer. But respect your feelings otherwise.

[SoCalPat]

First, I said nothing about what Oli might have known and what he didn't know. Second, answer the question, why would Hill fire Oli and not the actually problem child AKA Winslow? That my friend is the suspension of reality.

We couldn't fire Winslow while the investigation was ongoing. If we end up being truly wrong, our ass is in a sling. And after the OEO recommended no action, we certainly couldn't then.

[LA Ute]

I wondered about that; I don't know if a public institution can sign a confidentiality agreement, but I don't know anything about an employment law. Most governmental entities can't make confidentiality a term in a settlement agreement b/c it would violate GRMA and open records laws.

I know only enough about labor and employment law to be dangerous, and when it comes to government employee law, in Utah, I am truly frightening. :) So I was speculating.

[Scratch]

On the topic of firing people, if you're trying to orchestrate a coverup, the only people you fire are those who can't get you in trouble. Here, if Oli was fired for the swimming situation, Hill would have gotten it backwards. You have two people, one is the coach who has allegedly been accused of mistreating athletes. The other is the associate AD who either didn't report these issues to Hill or did report them, but Hill ignored the reports.

If you're Hill and you're going to fire anyone as part of a coverup, the person you fire is Winslow, because what's he going to do, go to the press and tell them that he was fired after being allowed to mistreat athletes for years? In other words, there would be no reason for Winslow to rat out Hill.

Oli, on the other hand, would be able to go public with everything and claim that Hill was ignoring the reports that Oli had been giving him, and then that he had been fired as a result of Hill ignoring his advice. Why would you ever want to fire that guy? If this really was a coverup, you don't fire the guy who can credibly point his finger at you and say you were ignoring the problem. To the contrary, that's the guy you promote and give a healthy raise.

Come on people, it's like none of you have ever orchestrated a major coverup. Based on that, I'm starting to think none of you have ever been married.

[Two Utes]

We couldn't fire Winslow while the investigation was ongoing. If we end up being truly wrong, our ass is in a sling. And after the OEO recommended no action, we certainly couldn't then.

So, Pat you are basically acknowledging that the most likley scenario is that Hill received a letter in the fall of last year about the swimming coaches' conduct. He immediately sends it on to the President and requests an immediate investigation. Shortly thereafter the AD in charge of swimming leaves. Then as soon as allegations of misconduct in 2007 surface, Hill immediately shit cans the coach.

In this scenario, explain to me what Hill did wrong here?

[Two Utes]

On the topic of firing people, if you're trying to orchestrate a coverup, the only people you fire are those who can't get you in trouble. Here, if Oli was fired for the swimming situation, Hill would have gotten it backwards. You have two people, one is the coach who has allegedly been accused of mistreating athletes. The other is the associate AD who either didn't report these issues to Hill or did report them, but Hill ignored the reports.

If you're Hill and you're going to fire anyone as part of a coverup, the person you fire is Winslow, because what's he going to do, go to the press and tell them that he was fired after being allowed to mistreat athletes for years? In other words, there would be no reason for Winslow to rat out Hill.

Oli, on the other hand, would be able to go public with everything and claim that Hill was ignoring the reports that Oli had been giving him, and then that he had been fired as a result of Hill ignoring his advice. Why would you ever want to fire that guy? If this really was a coverup, you don't fire the guy who can credibly point his finger at you and say you were ignoring the problem. To the contrary, that's the guy you promote and give a healthy raise.

Come on people, it's like none of you have ever orchestrated a major coverup. Based on that, I'm starting to think none of you have ever been married.


Agree with Scratch

[Devildog]

This is a good thread. I've been waiting for this place to get over being new, and everyone being on their best behavior.

It is far more interesting when people say what they really believe.

[SoCalPat]

So, Pat you are basically acknowledging that the most likley scenario is that Hill received a letter in the fall of last year about the swimming coaches' conduct. He immediately sends it on to the President and requests an immediate investigation. Shortly thereafter the AD in charge of swimming leaves. Then as soon as allegations of misconduct in 2007 surface, Hill immediately shit cans the coach.

In this scenario, explain to me what Hill did wrong here?

First, I largely absolve Hill of not knowing about the sexual misconduct. Obviously, it's the most serious crime but from what we know, that happened in Arizona (Given the perceived ax I have to grind with Hill, I think these thoughts are sincere. I took news of Winslow's resignation at face value, and did in no way ever believe it was related to something at Utah). I will say I would not be surprised if there are more victims of this nature, but it would be foolish for me to say unequivocally there has to be. I would say prior to six months ago, max, he had no clue about it. Whether or not it's his responsibility to know or to dig it out isn't a fair debate right now -- he had to have come recommended by Oli, given their common past.

My focus is on the swimmers Winslow coached while at Utah. That's why we need to know Oli's story. It's a key missing piece of the puzzle. And what do you mean by conduct -- the criminal charges Winslow is facing, or the accusations from swimmers and their parents? Hill has known about the latter for some time. It's documented.

[DU Ute]

First, I largely absolve Hill of not knowing about the sexual misconduct. Obviously, it's the most serious crime but from what we know, that happened in Arizona (Given the perceived ax I have to grind with Hill, I think these thoughts are sincere. I took news of Winslow's resignation at face value, and did in no way ever believe it was related to something at Utah). I will say I would not be surprised if there are more victims of this nature, but it would be foolish for me to say unequivocally there has to be. I would say prior to six months ago, max, he had no clue about it. Whether or not it's his responsibility to know or to dig it out isn't a fair debate right now -- he had to have come recommended by Oli, given their common past.

My focus is on the swimmers Winslow coached while at Utah. That's why we need to know Oli's story. It's a key missing piece of the puzzle. And what do you mean by conduct -- the criminal charges Winslow is facing, or the accusations from swimmers and their parents? Hill has known about the latter for some time. It's documented.


It is loosely documented that the parents complained. I've yet to see any documentation of what Hill knew when.

[Scratch]

My focus is on the swimmers Winslow coached while at Utah. That's why we need to know Oli's story. It's a key missing piece of the puzzle. And what do you mean by conduct -- the criminal charges Winslow is facing, or the accusations from swimmers and their parents? Hill has known about the latter for some time. It's documented.

Please show me this documentation. I sincerely want to see it, because to date I have not.

[DU Ute]

This is a good thread. I've been waiting for this place to get over being new, and everyone being on their best behavior.

It is far more interesting when people say what they really believe.

You're an asshole. That feels better.

[SoCalPat]

Please show me this documentation. I sincerely want to see it, because to date I have not.

From the Yahoo piece.


On Feb. 29, 2008, Fred's parents wrote to Hill with their concerns. Hill replied on March 26, 2008, with a letter of his own. "After reviewing the situation," he wrote, "I am convinced that the Athletics Department and the swimming program worked to assist [Fred] in providing the best care and support for him …"

[DU Ute]

From the Yahoo piece.

Exactly.

[Scratch]

From the Yahoo piece.

So what is documented is that Hill was told of some concerns that Fred's parents had. There is no documentation or even a description as to what those concerns involved. We know that he interacted with the parents on some topic involving their concerns and that he was satisfied with the way the program handled the situation. So there is no documentation about what was alleged, but there is documentation that Hill looked into it and was satisfied. I imagine that if you're an AD, you get communications from "concerned" parents of athletes all the time. Unless we know what those concerns actually said, and what Hill actually looked into, this "documentation" makes Hill look better.

[SoCalPat]

Exactly.

Ahh, discrediting the media. A tried and true hallmark for those who want the truth to differ from what is real.

[Devildog]

You're an asshole. That feels better.

I am. But I'm an honest asshole.

[DU Ute]

Ahh, discrediting the media. A tried and true hallmark for those who want the truth to differ from what is real.

I was discrediting you, not the media. I have no real problems with the Yahoo piece, just with people who read between the lines and engage in baseless speculation.

[SoCalPat]

So what is documented is that Hill was told of some concerns that Fred's parents had. There is no documentation or even a description as to what those concerns involved. We know that he interacted with the parents on some topic involving their concerns and that he was satisfied with the way the program handled the situation. So there is no documentation about what was alleged, but there is documentation that Hill looked into it and was satisfied. I imagine that if you're an AD, you get communications from "concerned" parents of athletes all the time. Unless we know what those concerns actually said, and what Hill actually looked into, this "documentation" makes Hill look better.

Yeah, because the parents left out that part about Winslow refusing his swimmer to get his inhaler and how he passed out. What were they sending him, a Christmas card?

[DU Ute]

I am. But I'm an honest asshole.

You are my kind of asshole.

[DU Ute]

Yeah, because the parents left out that part about Winslow refusing his swimmer to get his inhaler and how he passed out. What were they sending him, a Christmas card?

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds more like an assumption than documentation.

[SoCalPat]

I was discrediting you, not the media. I have no real problems with the Yahoo piece, just with people who read between the lines and engage in baseless speculation.

So when I say Hill has known about the abuse for some time, ie, more than a year, because I read about it in a story you have "no real problems" with, it's not baseless speculation. Thanks.

[Devildog]

Perspectives are interesting.

NSFW


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjHAZWyckMc

[Scratch]

Maybe it's just me, but that sounds more like an assumption than documentation.

Exactly. You shouldn't throw around words with extremely important significance when you don't actually mean it; "documentation" means something very important here, and to date there is no documentation. This means either that the documentation doesn't exist in the materials referenced in the piece, or the Yahoo writer is a hack who doesn't understand how to craft a compelling expose.

[LA Ute]

This is interesting and important:

U Swim Statement from U President David Pershing and Chris Hill (http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/u-swim-statement-from-u-president-david-pershing-and-chris-hill/)


Statement from U of U President on Hill/Swimming Situation

"This past week, public reports of alleged misconduct by a former swim coach and of the University of Utah's response to those allegations, have called into question the university's processes and our commitment to our student-athletes. Though I cannot comment on specific allegations, I can state unequivocally that any conduct by a staff member or student that jeopardizes the safety and well-being of any student, will not be tolerated.

Late yesterday, Special Assistant to the President and Director of Athletics Chris Hill asked me to appoint an independent investigator to review these allegations. One of my major goals since becoming president is to enhance the quality of the student experience and that certainly includes our student-athletes. I believe that transparency is essential in such cases and I have authorized a comprehensive, independent review of the University's swim program, with investigators reporting directly to me and presenting their ultimate findings to me. I have asked Michael Glazier and Alan Sullivan to lead the investigation.

Michael Glazier, a partner in the nationally recognized law firm Bond, Schoeneck & King, based in Kansas City, Missouri, has been practicing law for more than 30 years and has an impeccable record and experience in higher education and collegiate athletics investigations. Alan Sullivan is a highly respected member of the Salt Lake City legal community and is a trusted lawyer of over four decades with the regional law firm of Snell & Wilmer.

Specifically, I have charged Mr. Glazier and Mr. Sullivan to determine what, if any, incidents occurred within the swimming program; when did those incidents take place; what information was conveyed to the University about these incidents; what, if any, actions were taken in response; and what recommendations, if implemented, would better ensure the safety and well-being of our student athletes at the university. I have requested that they conduct their review with the utmost urgency while ensuring that it is comprehensive and accurate.

Both Chris Hill and I are committed to our student-athletes and ultimately, it is our responsibility to provide them with a safe and positive experience at the University of Utah. I am proud of our University students who are at the core of our mission and we will use the results of this review to strengthen all of our programs.

To protect the integrity of the independent review, I will not comment further until the review is completed."

Statement from Special Assistant to the President Chris Hill:

"As an educator, administrator and father, I have been a lifelong advocate for student-athletes and have worked hard to ensure their success, safety and well-being. The breadth and depth of these allegations are deeply distressing. If I or any member of our department inadequately addressed any allegation or failed in any of our duties, then we will immediately take appropriate actions and enact measures to further protect our student-athletes moving forward."


Michael S. Glazier (http://www.bsk.com/people/michael-s-glazier)

Michael S. Glazier is a Collegiate Sports attorney at Bond, Schoeneck & King. He is the Managing Member of the firm's Overland Park office and is the founder and Chair of the firm's Collegiate Sports Practice Group. Mr. Glazier's practice is concentrated on the representation of colleges, universities, athletics conferences, associations and individuals in NCAA infractions, eligibility and compliance-related matters. He has appeared on behalf of NCAA member clients before NCAA committees more than any other private practitioner. Mr. Glazier's clients number well in excess of 100 of the top intercollegiate athletics programs in the country.

Before joining Bond, Schoeneck & King, Mr. Glazier co-founded the Slive/Glazier Sports Group, the first sports law practice concentrating exclusively in the representation of colleges and universities in NCAA-related matters. Prior to that, he served seven years on the NCAA staff where, in addition to his primary responsibilities involving infractions, compliance and legislative matters, Mr. Glazier also served as staff liaison to the American Football Coaches Association and the Postseason Football Committee. He has authored several published articles on collegiate sports law and the NCAA and is a frequent speaker for both athletics and attorney organizations.

Mr. Glazier is listed in and has been cited by the Sporting News as one of the 50 most influential people in sports and has been the subject of feature articles in Sports Illustrated, USA Today, The Chronicle of Higher Education and numerous other publications.


Alan Sullivan (http://www.swlaw.com/attorneys/alan_sullivan)

Alan Sullivan has been practicing in Utah for over 30 years, concentrating in commercial and intellectual property litigation, health care litigation, and securities litigation.
Alan has represented clients in litigation relating to intellectual property, natural resources development, manufacturing, finance, and health care. He frequently represents lawyers and law firms in relation to ethical issues pending before courts and disciplinary boards.

[DU Ute]

So when I say Hill has known about the abuse for some time, ie, more than a year, because I read about it in a story you have "no real problems" with, it's not baseless speculation. Thanks.

I don't mean to be snide, but what does "known about the abuse" entail? What did he know? And when?

[Devildog]

This is interesting and important: ...

Good. This is the right move IMO, and would seem to be well stated.

[USS Utah]

Henry Stimson, FDR's Secretary of War during WWII, once said of the Navy Department that it "frequently seemed to retire from the realm of logic into a dim religious world in which Neptune was God, [Alfred Thayer] Mahan his prophet, and the United States Navy the only true Church."

The same could be said of Penn State where football was a religion and Paterno a prophet.

It cannot be said that swimming is a religion at Utah, nor that Winslow was a prophet. However, there was a time at least when basketball was a religion and Majerus was a prophet -- and there are at least some who remain upset at Hill for forcing the prophet to leave town.

Still, the swimming scandal could force the end of Hill's tenure at Utah. But for now I will operate on the presumption of innocence, which before the 24-hour news cycle used to be the ideal in this country.

[Mano]

Some people seem to be trying to turn this into a witch hunt. Do a thourough investigation, and then let the chips land where they may. I have a hard time believing that Chris Hill had any knowlege of the sexuall abuse allegations, but the truth will certainly come out, and if there was in fact a coverup, I am confident the facts will all come out in the end, and appropriate action taken. No need to start lynching people before we have all the facts.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Some people seem to be trying to turn this into a witch hunt. Do a thourough investigation, and then let the chips land where they may. I have a hard time believing that Chris Hill had any knowlege of the sexuall abuse allegations, but the truth will certainly come out, and if there was in fact a coverup, I am confident the facts will all come out in the end, and appropriate action taken. No need to start lynching people before we have all the facts.

:clap:

Sometimes those who speak least, speak best.

[Big Kahuna]

Ok I have been riding the pine on this.

First, I really, really feel awful for the young men and women on our swim team. For me, swimming for the U was one of the great experiences of my life, probably some of my fondest memories of the sport. This investigation will be even more stressful for the team.

I am not diving into all of the stuff that has been discussed. Greater minds can disagree on many of the issues the swimming program and the athletic department faces.

I am not a big conspiracy person either. I cannot come up with one good reason our AD would cover this up. Outside of the PAC invite which does not work for me chronologically, Hill seems decisive and has not been afraid to deal with issues head on.

I do have one opinion on one item in the Yahoo article. That is on the allegations of unconventional training.

There is a fine line between pushing D1 athletes to their limit and abuse. The biggest item in the article that I'd like more information on was the taping of the PVC pipe incident. That one seems a little "out there" to me. Again, I'd like to hear from team members to have more flavor on that particular drill.

The other one I could not really follow was the discussion of placing a mat on the diving board resulting in people landing on their backs? Could not follow that part of the discussion what so ever.

Swimming a long monotonous sport. Coaches try to break things up with new routines that also continue a swimmers improvement. For example a few items we tried and/or progressed in AAU:

1. Cut up old inner tubes and used them as rubber bands to prevent kicking to work the upper body more
2. Subsequently took mini bike innertubes and inflated them to put around your legs to create more drag while floating the legs
3. Numerous types of breath holding exercises

Some of these were cutting edge type improvements and were the mark of coaching brilliance. Could a parent take things the wrong way from their kid who did not like the new techniques, I believe the answer is yes.

Don Reddish used surgical tubing to tie to the feet of our sprinters. The other end of the tube was attached to the wall and then the sprinters would fight the increasing resistance to the other end. I was a distance swimmer so I did not get to do a bunch of this but I thought it was fun and nice diversion.

Recently I've seen swimmers training with snorkels that run frontally from mouth to nose and up. For an old fart like me that seemed strange. Again, innovation comes in different ways. Hardly abusive from what I've seen.

So I would need a lot more information on the PVC pipe and the drill that was attached to it. I will say the article implied it was for punishment which bothers me although that too happens in sports.

One other item to point out is that these swimmers are competitive. Combine that with a 20 year olds sense of invincibility and you will get swimmers blacking out. I only saw it happen once and it was not at the U.

Also, I do not have any "inside" information on what has occurred. The few times I tried to introduce myself to Winslow, I was rebuffed although a couple of instances were during meets so maybe he had his game face on? That said, my overall view is Winslow was different.

[Rocker Ute]

Yes! I've been waiting for Kahuna to weigh in on this.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

You won't believe this, but I was out in my car quite a bit this this morning, this afternoon and this evening. I decided I'd listen to the national sports radio programs to get some info on this swimming thing here at the U. that is, according to some here, a national embarrasment. Bigger than Pons and Fleishman. As big as Penn State.

Weird thing here....I couldn't find anyone on the national radio programs talking about it at all.

Yeah, the swim coach was a piece of work. It sounds like he was the Bobby Knight of swimming. It's also very likely he was sexually involved with an underage girl prior to coming to Utah but with the behavior coming to light only recently.

The guy is a bad guy. No doubt.

However, let's cool it on the "This is going to be as bad as Penn State" nonsense. Nobody is talking about this on the national news, let alone on national sports radio.

That doesn't mean it doesn't need to be handled properly, but this is NOT to anywhere near the level of what happened at Penn State.

[DU Ute]

You won't believe this, but I was out in my car quite a bit this this morning, this afternoon and this evening. I decided I'd listen to the national sports radio programs to get some info on this swimming thing here at the U. that is, according to some here, a national embarrasment. Bigger than Pons and Fleishman. As big as Penn State.

Weird thing here....I couldn't find anyone on the national radio programs talking about it at all.

Yeah, the swim coach was a piece of work. It sounds like he was the Bobby Knight of swimming. It's also very likely he was sexually involved with an underage girl prior to coming to Utah but with the behavior coming to light only recently.

The guy is a bad guy. No doubt.

However, let's cool it on the "This is going to be as bad as Penn State" nonsense. Nobody is talking about this on the national news, let alone on national sports radio.

That doesn't mean it doesn't need to be handled properly, but this is NOT to anywhere near the level of what happened at Penn State.

This is like the Penn State scandal about as much as BYU is the Harvard of the West.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Thanks for your insight, Kahuna. I too have been curious to hear your perspective. And I agree with everything that Port has posted above.

[LA Ute]

This is like the Penn State scandal about as much as BYU is the Harvard of the West.

There you go again, exposing your ALUF insecurities.

[Hadrian]

The only sentiment I agree with at this point is "wait and see". This situation could have many more aspects and variables that haven't come to light yet, for better or for worse.

[SeattleUte]

:clap:

Sometimes those who speak least, speak best.

Except there are no allegations of sexual abuse by the swim coach on our campus. Nor has he been arrested as Hoyo said.

[SoCalPat]

I don't mean to be snide, but what does "known about the abuse" entail? What did he know? And when?

Known about the abuse = near-certain knowledge that something's amiss, but with all the red flags popping up, it's hard to get a handle on what it all means.

Again, the 2008 letter to "Fred" and his parents is what does it for me from the timeline perspective. I'll return your favor by not meaning to be snide when I say this, but I don't envision one of the A.D.'s responsibilities being that of writing letters to parents defending his program.

[SeattleUte]

This is exactly why there needs to be a reset of the athletic department. Damage control isn't just about saving face. It's also about eliminating the problems.

No kidding since consussion.com is such an important media outlet. (Seriously, this guy looks like a total ambulance chaser; as if he invented the concept of the "sports concussion crisis". I don't believe he's been published in the NY Times magazine. I think he's lying.)

This thread needs to be merged with the big swimmingteamgate thread.

[codered]

This is interesting and important:

U Swim Statement from U President David Pershing and Chris Hill (http://unews.utah.edu/news_releases/u-swim-statement-from-u-president-david-pershing-and-chris-hill/)

Sure sounds like an AD who is trying to 'cover up' something. I mean what better way to hide the truth of your mistakes than by asking your boss to appoint an independent investigation? Fire him now dammit!

Seriously though, the way Pershing and Hill are handling this is exactly how I would expect and want them to handle this. By the end, if there was a cover up, it will be evident. If it wasn't, maybe some people will shut the hell up. What am I thinking? One can dream can't he?

[SoCalPat]

Sure sounds like an AD who is trying to 'cover up' something. I mean what better way to hide the truth of your mistakes than by asking your boss to appoint an independent investigation? Fire him now dammit!

Seriously though, the way Pershing and Hill are handling this is exactly how I would expect and want them to handle this. By the end, if there was a cover up, it will be evident. If it wasn't, maybe some people will shut the hell up. What am I thinking? One can dream can't he?

Well, except for the fact that they're on Investigation Request No. 2 ...

[LA Ute]

Well, except for the fact that they're on Investigation Request No. 2 ...

Yes, based on new facts.

[SoCalPat]

Yahoo Story No. 2. Has some quotes from Hill that I haven't seen anywhere, plus a few more parents chiming in.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/university-of-utah-orders-investigation-into-coach-s-abuse--questions-still-to-be-answered-235939923.html

[SoCalPat]

Yes, based on new facts.

Serious question: Why did anyone think the OEO investigation would be satisfactory? As you noted earlier, sadistic coaching behavior would not fall under this entity's responsibility. Yet we interviewed dozens of swimmers, most of them current team members and several on scholarship. Presumably, the OEO asked about the Martin Luther King Jr. incident. Was it even clued in to the sexual misconduct angle? If we're to believe Hill about his discovery on the sexual misconduct -- and I do -- then why go to such lengths over something that's borderline trivial when compared to some of the more serious allegations being leveled against Winslow?

[DU Ute]

Here's a great quote from this Fiascone fellow in his latest communication to Hill. It seems like he has quite the ax to grind.


“Based on the rapidly growing number of victims coming forward, I am rescinding my prior proposal for resolution. I am still willing to participate in good faith discussions either during your Tuesday meeting or at another mutually convenient time. My stated deadline of Friday March 15 for scheduling of such discussions stands as does my intent, should there be no discussions, to proceed down the path of organizing victims of Winslow as well as seek out potential victims in other University sports who suffered due to failings of the University.”

I wonder if this independent investigation will be satisfactory in meeting his demands. Let's hope so!

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7086

[LA Ute]

Here's a great quote from this Fiascone fellow in his latest communication to Hill. It seems like he has quite the ax to grind.



I wonder if this independent investigation will be satisfactory in meeting his demands. Let's hope so!

http://concussioninc.net/?p=7086

Maybe with the investigation he feels it all slipping away. He can't seriously expect anything to happen until that's over.

[DU Ute]

Maybe with the investigation he feels it all slipping away. He can't seriously expect anything to happen until that's over.
He really comes off as someone with a vendetta. Threatening to stir up trouble in other programs if he doesn't get his way? What a childish thing to do.

[Scratch]

He really comes off as someone with a vendetta. Threatening to stir up trouble in other programs if he doesn't get his way? What a childish thing to do.

He's just trying to get paid.

[Jeff Lebowski]

If you follow the evolution of my reactions to the Paterno situation you will see they were extremely responsible and well thought out. I take nothing back.

Folks, if you ever want to see a great example of chutzpah, this is it. Being completely wrong about the Paterno case and then eventually coming around well after it was obvious to everyone else is now a "responsible and well thought out" "evolution of ... reactions".

Good heavens, you are shameless. If I ever get in trouble I am going to hire you as my defense attorney.

[Viking]

Folks, if you ever want to see a great example of chutzpah, this is it. Being completely wrong about the Paterno case and then eventually coming around well after it was obvious to everyone else is now a "responsible and well thought out" "evolution of ... reactions".

Good heavens, you are shameless. If I ever get in trouble I am going to hire you as my defense attorney.

Why must you two fight? And where is DDD?

[UTEopia]

Here's a great quote from this Fiascone fellow in his latest communication to Hill. It seems like he has quite the ax to grind.
“Based on the rapidly growing number of victims coming forward, I am rescinding my prior proposal for resolution. I am still willing to participate in good faith discussions either during your Tuesday meeting or at another mutually convenient time. My stated deadline of Friday March 15 for scheduling of such discussions stands as does my intent, should there be no discussions, to proceed down the path of organizing victims of Winslow as well as seek out potential victims in other University sports who suffered due to failings of the University.”


IMO, this guy really does not care about the investigation. He wanted his kid to receive an apology for being kicked off the team and to be reinstated to the team. His claim appears to be that my kid was kicked off the team for drinking at a party. He supports his argument by saying other swimmers have done the same or worse (drinking and smoking pot), the coach is a drunk and showed up drunk or hungover to practice, the coach purchased beer for an underage swimmer, the coach is a bad guy and did these bad things to other swimmers in 2008 and 2010 and at his first ever practice (before my son was on the team) and as a result of all of this stuff that was done to other swimmers and outside of my son's presence, you need to have Winslow apologize to my son (not fired mind you), reinstate him to the team (with the same abusive coach) and give this other kid an academic scholarship. His next move appears to be that he will take this to other sports.


I do not recall reading any allegations of conduct by Winslow directed at the Fiascone kid other then being kicked off the team. Are there any?

[LA Ute]

Brad Rock is now on the story!!! (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865575507/U-needed-better-communication-in-swim-scandal.html)

[LA Ute]

This thread needs to be merged with the big swimmingteamgate thread.

Done.

[SoCalPat]

IMO, this guy really does not care about the investigation. He wanted his kid to receive an apology for being kicked off the team and to be reinstated to the team. His claim appears to be that my kid was kicked off the team for drinking at a party. He supports his argument by saying other swimmers have done the same or worse (drinking and smoking pot), the coach is a drunk and showed up drunk or hungover to practice, the coach purchased beer for an underage swimmer, the coach is a bad guy and did these bad things to other swimmers in 2008 and 2010 and at his first ever practice (before my son was on the team) and as a result of all of this stuff that was done to other swimmers and outside of my son's presence, you need to have Winslow apologize to my son (not fired mind you), reinstate him to the team (with the same abusive coach) and give this other kid an academic scholarship. His next move appears to be that he will take this to other sports.


I do not recall reading any allegations of conduct by Winslow directed at the Fiascone kid other then being kicked off the team. Are there any?

I think Fiascone has moved past doing right by his son and has his targets set on the U. At the same time, Fiascone is writing checks his mouth can't cash. He's going to have difficulty finding other victims in other sports for largely the same reasons the OEO investigation was a failure -- there are simply too many athletes on scholarship who won't endanger their status by speaking out against their coach. And that's provided there's even a sport at the U. rife with the dissatisfaction found in the swim program over Winslow. I highly doubt that's the case.

[UBlender]

He's just trying to get paid.

This has been my thought too. Dude is looking to cash in on this.

[Scorcho]

former male U swimmer from 2006 to 2010 on radio this morning with DJ and PK. Swam for Winslow for 3 years, claimed everyone swam with a PVC pipe strapped to them, was part of training, helped keep your spine and hips straight, also everyone swam with a mesh net around their head. Was not a problem for anyone, was designed to make us a better in the pool. Swimmer claims he is frustrated and blown away by these allegations. Swimmer says these allegations of abuse are silly, there are 100 swimmers that had a great experience with Winslow.

I'm sure the interview will be online shortly.

[stretchiute]

Link to interview
(http://kfanav.s3.amazonaws.com/20130312_DJPK-031213-Todd-Bradley-Utah-Swimmer-net.MP3)

[LA Ute]

former male U swimmer from 2006 to 2010 on radio this morning with DJ and PK. This swimmer claimed that he swam for Winslow for 3 years, claimed everyone swam with a PVC pipe strapped to them, was part of training, helped keep your spine and hips straight, also everyone swam with a mesh net around their head. Was not a problem for anyone, was designed to make us a better in the pool. Swimmer claims he is frustrated and blown away by these allegations. Swimmer says these allegations of abuse are silly, there are 100 swimmers that had a great experience with Winslow.

I'm sure the interview will be online shortly.

339

[SeattleUte]

Folks, if you ever want to see a great example of chutzpah, this is it. Being completely wrong about the Paterno case and then eventually coming around well after it was obvious to everyone else is now a "responsible and well thought out" "evolution of ... reactions".

Good heavens, you are shameless. If I ever get in trouble I am going to hire you as my defense attorney.

I invite anyone to review the back and forth in that thread. I took no inconsistent positions.

[Pheidippides]

I invite anyone to review the back and forth in that thread. I took no inconsistent positions.

Inconsistent positions are your greatest consistency.

[Jeromy in SLC]

My hope is that the investigation covers everything. All of the original complaints and correspondence. All of the previous interviews. All of the information in the OEO investigation. All of it. It could be that the allegations were not substantiated by others, and therefore no action taken. It could be that the complaints were not properly followed up. In my business, failure analysis is crucial. EVERYTHING must be looked over, because if you cannot come to the root cause, it will cost us down the road.

I am also of the mind set that I will not pass judgement on anyone until everything comes out. This newest radio interview with a previous swimmer is proof that we don't know everything aside from what is presented in the Yahoo! article.

[LA Ute]

Link to interview (http://kfanav.s3.amazonaws.com/20130312_DJPK-031213-Todd-Bradley-Utah-Swimmer-net.MP3)

That interview is well worth spending 11 minutes to hear it all. If the story that former U. swimmer, Todd Bradley, is telling accurately describes what really happened, then this "scandal" is the biggest nothing-burger I've ever seen. Notice I said "if," a word much used throughout this thread. We'll see.

[DU Ute]

Brad Rock is now on the story!!! (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865575507/U-needed-better-communication-in-swim-scandal.html)

If he wanted answers maybe he should have been asking questions before this thing blew up. Too bad no one in the local media seemed to have a clue what was going on.

[Two Utes]

That interview is well worth spending 11 minutes to hear it all. If the story that former U. swimmer, Todd Bradley, is telling accurately describes what really happened, then this "scandal" is the biggest nothing-burger I've ever seen. Notice I said "if," a word much used throughout this thread. We'll see.

So here is what we know so far. Hill apparently got at least one email from a parent in 2008 questioning the swimming coach. He apparently received others later although it is unclear how much later and how many (i know I am repeating what others have said but it sure would seem to me that Yahoo would have a better timeline of events if the timeline was damning, instead they continue to reiterate that a parent sent Hill a letter in 2008). Having some experience with this, I know that there are shit piles of parents of college athletes who complain about coaches. Coaches and administrators hate parents because of all the complaints. I assume that an email from a disgruntled parent is commonplace in the Utah athletic department.

Hill does receive a very troubling letter from the Illinois guy in the fall of 2012 with serious accusations. He immediately acts on it and asks for an investigation.

I need a lot more damning information before I can even come close to assuming Hill did something wrong here. the Yahoo pieces are not getting me there. Give me some more meat if you have it Yahoo.

[LA Ute]

:tumbleweed:

[UteBeliever aka Port]

:tumbleweed:

Well, you can always be brave and venture over to CS to talk about the issue. Seems like you'd find a lot more Ute and BYU fans that would be interested in engaging you and telling you exactly why this case is already closed and the U. and Chris Hill are guilty.

Seems like the tenor here is "wait and see." Until more info emerges, it's probably cactus and tumbleweed...

Which seems to be an infinitely more measured approach. Unless you are SCP, Garth or the fine BYU fans on CougarBoard or its sister site, CougarStadium.

[GarthUte]

You have to think that he has received hundreds of "I / my kid / my friend was treated unfairly by coach / teammate / admin / professor" emails over the years.

Delusional Little League parents never stop being delusional Little League parents.

[LA Ute]

Well, you can always be brave and venture over to CS to talk about the issue. Seems like you'd find a lot more Ute and BYU fans that would be interested in engaging you and telling you exactly why this case is already closed and the U. and Chris Hill are guilty.

Seems like the tenor here is "wait and see." Until more info emerges, it's probably cactus and tumbleweed...

Which seems to be an infinitely more measured approach. Unless you are SCP, Garth or the fine BYU fans on CougarBoard or its sister site, CougarStadium.

Actually I was just making note of the lack of interest in discussing the issue. Personally, I am glad for that lack of interest. It is dangerous to draw too many conclusions from the radio interview this morning, but it does raise the distinct possibility that there is an entirely different side to this story, and that the story may well be overblown. Again, we don't know yet, but I think people have been reminded that it's best to wait and see.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

Actually I was just making note of the lack of interest in discussing the issue. Personally, I am glad for that lack of interest. It is dangerous to draw too many conclusions from the radio interview this morning, but it does raise the distinct possibility that there is an entirely different side to this story, and that the story may well be overblown. Again, we don't know yet, but I think people have been reminded that it's best to wait and see.

I agree with this post 100%.

I hope we are mistaken to be lacking in bravery, you and I. ;)

[USS Utah]

:tumbleweed:

If you ever feel like things are getting really slow around here, take a walk over to my place.

http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/directory#.UT_crDc08uw

[USS Utah]

If you ever feel like things are getting really slow around here, take a walk over to my place.

http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/directory#.UT_crDc08uw

I may live to regret that as the Moose's Whistle just showed up at my group.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I may live to regret that as the Moose's Whistle just showed up at my group.

well that is easy enough to fix.

[GarthUte]

I may live to regret that as the Moose's Whistle just showed up at my group.

Nobody would feel bad if you tossed him out.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Well, you can always be brave and venture over to CS to talk about the issue. Seems like you'd find a lot more Ute and BYU fans that would be interested in engaging you and telling you exactly why this case is already closed and the U. and Chris Hill are guilty.

Seems like the tenor here is "wait and see." Until more info emerges, it's probably cactus and tumbleweed...

Which seems to be an infinitely more measured approach. Unless you are SCP, Garth or the fine BYU fans on CougarBoard or its sister site, CougarStadium.

What a load of crap, PU. Over on CS, we have a whopping two and a half pages on the topic, consisting of 74 posts, 27 of which are from Ute posters. And the other posts are far more muted than the discussion in this thread. Don't be such a drama queen.

[Diehard Ute]

Actually I was just making note of the lack of interest in discussing the issue. Personally, I am glad for that lack of interest. It is dangerous to draw too many conclusions from the radio interview this morning, but it does raise the distinct possibility that there is an entirely different side to this story, and that the story may well be overblown. Again, we don't know yet, but I think people have been reminded that it's best to wait and see.

As we often tell people, there are often three sides to every story. Each persons side, and how things actually occurred. Like it or not, everyone has some sort of bias and they tell their story with that bias.

In some cases you have a double bias. A kid tells their parents their "story" then the parents further that because its their kid.

I have no idea what actually occurred, and we may never know the actual story.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

What a load of crap, PU. Over on CS, we have a whopping two and a half pages on the topic, consisting of 74 posts, 27 of which are from Ute posters. And the other posts are far more muted than the discussion in this thread. Don't be such a drama queen.

Seesh. Lighten up, JL!

[Jeff Lebowski]

Seesh. Lighten up, JL!

lol. Touche'.

[LA Ute]

JL defending the honor of his board.

[mpfunk]

What a load of crap, PU. Over on CS, we have a whopping two and a half pages on the topic, consisting of 74 posts, 27 of which are from Ute posters. And the other posts are far more muted than the discussion in this thread. Don't be such a drama queen.

You may want to check in junkie's latest before calling the discussion muted.

That being said I mostly agree with you.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[LA Ute]

You may want to check in junkie's latest before calling the discussion muted.

That being said I mostly agree with you.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Also, a thread entitled "Penn State 2.0" is muted? Lol.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

That being said I mostly agree with you.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

You would. You are "embarrassed to be a Ute fan" before all the facts are known.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

Also, a thread entitled "Penn State 2.0" is muted? Lol.
. CJ----->
CougarStadium ------> :rave:

CJ is a crack up! They love him over there! It's all in good fun! You guys just need to "lighten up!"

[UteBeliever aka Port]

You may want to check in junkie's latest before calling the discussion muted.

That being said I mostly agree with you.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

It's been interesting reading CSers musing about the ways in which Jarid and the moderators of UB5 might avoid this board becoming Utefans 2.0 and keeping the "Utefans element" on good behavior.

Yet, JL and his group of moderators do nothing about reining in cougjunkie. It would seem they actually are glad he is back and "doing his thing." You'd think someone over there would have the "bravery" to publicly tell cj to settle down once in a while instead of silently encouraging him.

[GarthUte]

Why worry about junkie?

[Jeff Lebowski]

It's been interesting reading CSers musing about the ways in which Jarid and the moderators of UB5 might avoid this board becoming Utefans 2.0 and keeping the "Utefans element" on good behavior.

Yet, JL and his group of moderators do nothing about reining in cougjunkie. It would seem they actually are glad he is back and "doing his thing." You'd think someone over there would have the "bravery" to publicly tell cj to settle down once in a while instead of silently encouraging him.

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?66657-Penn-St-2-0&p=963467&viewfull=1#post963467

[UteBeliever aka Port]

Why worry about junkie?

Why does JL worry about what I say over here?

It's all in good fun, my friend!

Jarid, you REALLY need to whip these Utefans cast-off into shape!

[Scratch]

It's been interesting reading CSers musing about the ways in which Jarid and the moderators of UB5 might avoid this board becoming Utefans 2.0 and keeping the "Utefans element" on good behavior.

Yet, JL and his group of moderators do nothing about reining in cougjunkie. It would seem they actually are glad he is back and "doing his thing." You'd think someone over there would have the "bravery" to publicly tell cj to settle down once in a while instead of silently encouraging him.

Those of you who have more exposure to Junkie, is he really as big of a lowlife as he comes across, or does he just enjoy pretending to be an insufferable and illogical jerk?

And Port, you're exactly right about the absurdity of questioning the content of Ute message boards as long as CJ is allowed to do his thing over there.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?66657-Penn-St-2-0&p=963467&viewfull=1#post963467

Powerful.

I wonder if there is some kind of software by which we can merge the two boards...sort of like when two threads are merged because the content is the same and two threads are redundant...

[UteBeliever aka Port]

Those of you who have more exposure to Junkie, is he really as big of a lowlife as he comes across, or does he just enjoy pretending to be an insufferable and illogical jerk?

And Port, you're exactly right about the absurdity of questioning the content of Ute message boards as long as CJ is allowed to do his thing over there.

Aw, he's just trolling. He's not really behaving badly!

:cheers:

[LA Ute]

Those of you who have more exposure to Junkie, is he really as big of a lowlife as he comes across, or does he just enjoy pretending to be an insufferable and illogical jerk?

And Port, you're exactly right about the absurdity of questioning the content of Ute message boards as long as CJ is allowed to do his thing over there.

People I respect (like PAC) who know him in real life say he's a good guy, but the guy who has been posting on TMBFKACUF for the last month or two is insufferable. I've rarely engaged him in conversation. But his fellow BYU fans there never seem to ask him to tone it down, at least not openly. My theory is that he has photos of them in compromised circumstances.

[LA Ute]

Not sure how y'all have the time or the stomach for a BYU message board.

We're using the patch method to quit.

[Jeromy in SLC]

Powerful.

I wonder if there is some kind of software by which we can merge the two boards...sort of like when two threads are merged because the content is the same and two threads are redundant...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ

[Jeff Lebowski]

Those of you who have more exposure to Junkie, is he really as big of a lowlife as he comes across, or does he just enjoy pretending to be an insufferable and illogical jerk?

And Port, you're exactly right about the absurdity of questioning the content of Ute message boards as long as CJ is allowed to do his thing over there.

What on earth are you talking about? The only thing I am seeing here is you, PU, and LAU whining about a thread on another board.

[Scratch]

What on earth are you talking about? The only thing I am seeing here is you, PU, and LAU whining about a thread on another board.

I'm going on what Port said. Has there been talk on CS about this message board devolving in some way based on the caliber of posters, and what Jarid will to do control that? If so, my only point is that's laughable given the garbage that CJ posts on your site, regardless of whether he's doing it as a troll or a genuine jerk.

[USS Utah]

What on earth are you talking about? The only thing I am seeing here is you, PU, and LAU whining about a thread on another board.

Wait, there's another board?

[SeattleUte]

I'm going on what Port said. Has there been talk on CS about this message board devolving in some way based on the caliber of posters, and what Jarid will to do control that? If so, my only point is that's laughable given the garbage that CJ posts on your site, regardless of whether he's doing it as a troll or a genuine jerk.

CJ is also very sexist. He will say outright that women belong one place -- in the home. He gives Mormonism a bad name.

[SeattleUte]

I google utah swim scandal and I get Brad Rock, concussion.com, and three Hoyos revenge blog entries as the first five on the list. This story is going nowhere fast. I wouldn't condescend to debating it with junkie.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Wait, there's another board?

Nothing of any consequence.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I google utah swim scandal and I get Brad Rock, concussion.com, and three Hoyos revenge blog entries as the first five on the list. This story is going nowhere fast. I wouldn't condescend to debating it with junkie.

You always were lousy with google.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=utah+swim+coach+greg+winslow

nytimes, espn, sports illustrated, ...