UCLA Agonistes

[LA Ute]

They just fired Howland. I have heard someone else is waiting in the wings. It'll be interesting to see who wants that job now. I doubt Howland will have trouble finding another gig.

[SeattleUte]

They just fired Howland. I have heard someone else is waiting in the wings. It'll be interesting to see who wants that job now. I doubt Howland will have trouble finding another gig.

Howland blew it. UCLA deserves better.

[LA Ute]

Howland blew it. UCLA deserves better.

He clearly underperformed with the talent he had this year. I'm just intrigued. Who'll take that job? Will they get the hoops equivalent of Kyle Dorrell or of Jim Mora?

[SeattleUte]

He clearly underperformed with the talent he had this year. I'm just intrigued. Who'll take that job? Will they get the hoops equivalent of Kyle Dorrell or of Jim Mora?

I predict UCLA will struggle a lot less to find a coach worthy of the tradition, money and opportunities it has to offer than Oregon did before it had to settle for Altman.

[LA Ute]

I predict UCLA will struggle a lot less to find a coach worthy of the tradition, money and opportunities it has to offer than Oregon did before it had to settle for Altman.

:snack:

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I predict UCLA will struggle a lot less to find a coach worthy of the tradition, money and opportunities it has to offer than Oregon did before it had to settle for Altman.

Sometimes the one you settle for is your soul mate.

[SeattleUte]

Two years ago Howland would have been a terrific hire for us. His half court rigor would have fit right in with our traditional personnel profile and what we've come to expect after Pimm and Majerus. But anyone with enough hubris to take the UCLA job likely wouldn't settle for Utah.

[FountainOfUte]

Two years ago Howland would have been a terrific hire for us. His half court rigor would have fit right in with our traditional personnel profile and what we've come to expect after Pimm and Majerus. But anyone with enough hubris to take the UCLA job likely wouldn't settle for Utah.

Yep. Coach Krystkowiac has done a fine job so far given his circumstances. But in some other universe, Howland was the perfect hire for Utah to replace Boylen. Of course we never would have gotten him, but I thought he was the model for the next hire and we needed to get the closest thing to Ben Howland possible. Maybe Kodiac is that guy.

[U-Ute]

It would be funny if Howland ended up at USC.

But I doubt they have the commitment level to basketball required.

[SeattleUte]

It would be funny if Howland ended up at USC.

But I doubt they have the commitment level to basketball required.

A little like when Pitino wound up at Louisville.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

So who's the replacement? I would guess they make offers to Smart and Stevens. I would take the job if I were one of those guys, but they have been loyal to VCU and Butler so far.

UCLA is a top 3 basketball program all time (maybe #1?). When other top 3 programs recently made changes, they had someone in mind from day 1 (Calipari for Kentucky, Williams for UNC). There doesn't seem to be an obvious comparable guy for UCLA.

Whoever it is, here's hoping they get a dud.

Driving to the airport this early AM all the "sources" were saying it is Shaka Smart's job if he wants.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I don't want to go against that 40 minutes press. Or maybe it would be good for us. Nevermind. Bring It, Shaka!

Especially in hoops, I'm of the attitude a rising tide raises all ships. UCLA being great is good for the conference.

[SeattleUte]

I think a strong UCLA raises all Pac 12 ships.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I think a strong UCLA raises all Pac 12 ships.

Isn't that what I said?

[Joe Public]

He should take it. VCU is hot now, but who knows how long that will last? He may have a limited window to be able to cash out.

Look at Randy Bennett. He had chances to get out for bigger money, but he thought he would wait another year or two for an even better position. Now it will take another Sweet 16 run to get him on the map again.

It's a valid point, but I think the change in college hoops over the last fifteen years or so has made this less clear-cut than it used to be. Howland went to three Final Fours at UCLA (yes, it's been a while), he won the league championship this year, and he has a strong recruiting class lined up. It wasn't enough. The top-name schools have a high bar like that. Admittedly, Howland also had some strikes against him.

However, if you make a couple of Final Fours at Butler, e.g., you're the most successful coach the school has ever had. The odds of staying as long as you want in that job, being supported by the school and fans, are much higher over a longer period of time. There has to be something that draws someone away from that.

Money? Maybe, but coaches get enough now to where many (Chris Petersen in football, e.g.) base decisions on reasons that are not financial ones. Competitive edge? Enough top recruits are one and done now that a traditional powerhouse like Kentucky wins the tournament one year and doesn't even make it the next. This is with top-shelf recruits. A team like Butler or VCU can get enough second-level talent to be competitive, but more importantly, their kids usually stay for three or four years and have a chance to mature as a team. In basketball, this makes a big difference. I think a lot of the upsets are due to this fact: a team with kids who have played 100 games together can, assuming a threshhold level of talent, compete well against a higher-talent team with fewer than 30 games together.

I still think, though, that winning the whole thing is much easier at a powerhouse school. If that's the overriding desire of a coach, then UCLA is a good spot to make a run at it.

Some ramblings this Monday morning . . .

[concerned]

Very good points. If he's happy at VCU, he should stay (after using the UCLA offer to negotiate a raise).

In other news, Tubby Smith fired by Minnesota.

I heard someone tell Dan Patrick this morning that the UCLA search is going to be one of those that gets a lot of coaches raises. Nobbody seems to think Shaka or Brad Stevens will take the job.

[SeattleUte]

I heard someone tell Dan Patrick this morning that the UCLA search is going to be one of those that gets a lot of coaches raises. Nobbody seems to think Shaka or Brad Stevens will take the job.

UCLA will be fine. UCLA is better off than Kansas was before it hired Bill Self from Illinois. It has a better tradition, better venue, better school, better conference and maybe lower expectations since Roy Williams had just had a lot of success at Kansas. Also, what about Roy Williams leaving Kansas for North Carolina, or even Howland leaving Pitt for UCLA.

The talking heads on the radio shows don't know anything. They're idiots.

EDIT: Kentucky took Calipari from Memphis.

Indiana took Crean from Marquette.

We're talking about UCLA.

USC might be a great move for Howland.

[SoCalPat]

UCLA will be fine. UCLA is better off than Kansas was before it hired Bill Self from Illinois. It has a better tradition, better venue, better school, better conference and maybe lower expectations since Roy Williams had just had a lot of success at Kansas. Also, what about Roy Williams leaving Kansas for North Carolina, or even Howland leaving Pitt for UCLA.

The talking heads on the radio shows don't know anything. They're idiots.

LOL. You got the part about better school right; everything else is the truth only in your mind.

[SeattleUte]

LOL. You got the part about better school right; everything else is the truth only in your mind.

The numbers don't lie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men's_basketball

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Jayhawks_men's_basketball

You think that Lawrence Kansas is a more desireable venue than Westwood? lol. You and Dorothy. Nobody else does.

Then there's where it's easiest to recruit to. Los Angeles is the most populous city in the most populous state in the union (50% more people than Texas).

[Mano]

FWIW, I have heard from my UCLA friends that Brad Stevens and Billy Donavan are the primary targets right now.

[concerned]

FWIW, I have heard from my UCLA friends that Brad Stevens and Billy Donavan are the primary targets right now.

billy donovan turned down several NBA jobs. Florida can pay more than UCLA. Why he would be interested is beyond me.

[LA Ute]

Majerus would never have lasted at UCLA (http://www.ocregister.com/sports/howland-501116-season-three.html):


"I know that Ben got a lot of knocks for style of play, but Ben Howland is a very good coach," Guerrero said.


But in the Bruins' new coach, Guerrero said UCLA will "look at someone that can play a fun brand of basketball."


"Certainly we don't want to bring in a coach that's going to average 50 points per game," Guerrero said.

Maji's teams averaged more than that, but by "fun brand of basketball" I don't think Guerrero is talking about a motion offense and waiting for the best shot.

[Jeromy in SLC]

The numbers don't lie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men's_basketball

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Jayhawks_men's_basketball

You think that Lawrence Kansas is a more desireable venue than Westwood? lol. You and Dorothy. Nobody else does.

Then there's where it's easiest to recruit to. Los Angeles is the most populous city in the most populous state in the union (50% more people than Texas).

I don't disagree about the difference in venues. But Kansas has made a living recruiting out of Southern California for years. I can't speak for previous coaches, but Williams and Self routinely pull great players from the LA area. Any coach at UCLA is going to have to figure out a way to close that spigot.

[LA Ute]

Lawrence is actually a very nice college town and the KU campus is beautiful, FWIW.

[SeattleUte]

I don't disagree about the difference in venues. But Kansas has made a living recruiting out of Southern California for years. I can't speak for previous coaches, but Williams and Self routinely pull great players from the LA area. Any coach at UCLA is going to have to figure out a way to close that spigot.

You've actually made my point, and issued a ringing condemnation of Howland. I've been a Howland fan. He has Utah roots and is of the Jerry Pimm tree. Clearly he can coach, and recruit. But he's had his chance, and we see that he's not cut out to be UCLA's coach. Few people are, so there's not shame in that. I'm guessing that Billy Donovan would close that spigot you reference, in a new york second. We're talking about UCLA here; it should damn well be possible for a UCLA coach to prevent Kansas from making off with LA's best basketball players.

I think the die was cast when UCLA lost to Florida (in the NC game) and then Memphis in Howland's first and third Final Fours. Those were winnable games, and he didn't get it done. Both times I was surprised. In the second FF Florida had made more improvement than UCLA and was just a lot better. Instead Donovan and Self got the titles.

[SeattleUte]

Lawrence is actually a very nice college town and the KU campus is beautiful, FWIW.

I agree but it's not UCLA. Few places are. You must be jaded by familiarity.

[LA Ute]

I agree but it's not UCLA. Few places are. You must be jaded by familiarity.

Not really. UCLA is located in West L.A. and it's a desirable, exciting place to live and work, for a zillion reasons. It is also very busy and crowded, and the real estate prices are among the highest in the USA. So some people (players, coaches) may find the slower pace of life in Lawrence to be more appealing. That's all.

[SoCalPat]

The numbers don't lie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Bruins_men's_basketball

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Jayhawks_men's_basketball

You think that Lawrence Kansas is a more desireable venue than Westwood? lol. You and Dorothy. Nobody else does.

Then there's where it's easiest to recruit to. Los Angeles is the most populous city in the most populous state in the union (50% more people than Texas).

Most people associate venue with arena, and Allen Fieldhouse kills Pauley.

Glad you posted the KU link. Here's something from it:


In 2008, ESPN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESPN) ranked Kansas second on a list of the most prestigious programs of the modern college basketball era, behind only Duke.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Jayhawks_men's_basketball#cite_note-3) Kansas has the longest current streak of consecutive NCAA tournament appearances (24),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_Jayhawks_men's_basketball#cite_note-4) holds the longest current streak of winning seasons (31), has the most winning seasons in Division I history (96), the most non-losing seasons (.500 or better) in NCAA history (99), the most conference championships in Division I history (56), the most First Team All Americans in Division I history (20), the most First Team All American Selections in Division I history (28), is third in Division I all-time winning percentage (.721) and is second in Division I all-time wins (2,101).

Today's recruits don't care what UCLA did when their grandparents were in college. But they do remember Mario Chalmers' shot vs. Memphis.

[Mormon Red Death]

Espn's top candidates for the UCLA job

Coaches Potentially on UCLA's list


Brad Stevens, Butler
Rick Pitino, Louisville
Billy Donovan, Florida
Shaka Smart, VCU
Josh Pastner, Memphis
Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's
Jay Wright, Villanova
Mick Cronin, Cincinnati
Gregg Marshall, Wichita State
Mark Gottfried, NC State
Mike Brown, ex-NBA coach
Jeff Van Gundy, ex-NBA coach


Please be Mike Brown...

[Scratch]

This is silly. There is consensus that the top programs of all time are UCLA, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, and Duke. You are arguing over the order of those 5. Who cares? The point is, they are all top basketball programs.

I think a really interesting question that is taking this thread far afield is who is #6. Indiana? Louisville? Michigan State? Syracuse?

[SeattleUte]

I think a really interesting question that is taking this thread far afield is who is #6. Indiana? Louisville? Michigan State? Syracuse?

Indiana. Indiana may be ahead of some of the purported top 5. Bob Knight won 3 national titles there. I would put Indiana above Kansas and possibly North Carolina. Duke had not much tradition before Coach K, but he probably all by himself put them in the top 6.

[SoCalPat]

Indiana. Indiana may be ahead of some of the purported top 5. Bob Knight won 3 national titles there. I would put Indiana above Kansas and possibly North Carolina. Duke had not much tradition before Coach K, but he probably all by himself put them in the top 6.

Saying Duke didn't have much tradition before K is like saying Utah didn't have much tradition before Majerus.

[concerned]

Saying Duke didn't have much tradition before K is like saying Utah didn't have much tradition before Majerus.

Wasn't duke in the final four chambers year in 66? They beat us for 3rd I think. They had a great tradition in the 50s and 60s.

[SeattleUte]

Saying Duke didn't have much tradition before K is like saying Utah didn't have much tradition before Majerus.

I stand corrected.

[UtahDan]

Shaka Smart?

http://mobi.timesdispatch.com/richmond/db_16529/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=3LSxNagU

[SeattleUte]

Shaka Smart?

http://mobi.timesdispatch.com/richmond/db_16529/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=3LSxNagU

He would be nuts not to take it. But UCLA should aim higher.

[UtahDan]

He would be nuts not to take it. But UCLA should aim higher.

He's pretty much a god out here so I'm probably not objective about him. What he should do is wait for Georgetown to run out of patience with JT3's lack of tournament production.

[mpfunk]

Espn's top candidates for the UCLA job

Coaches Potentially on UCLA's list


Brad Stevens, Butler
Rick Pitino, Louisville
Billy Donovan, Florida
Shaka Smart, VCU
Josh Pastner, Memphis
Randy Bennett, Saint Mary's
Jay Wright, Villanova
Mick Cronin, Cincinnati
Gregg Marshall, Wichita State
Mark Gottfried, NC State
Mike Brown, ex-NBA coach
Jeff Van Gundy, ex-NBA coach


Please be Mike Brown...

I think Brad Stevens is the best coach on the list, but the best fit for UCLA on that list is Rick Pitino. He has coached at a legendary program and been successful. He is an amazing recruiter and he plays the uptempo style that UCLA wants to play. Pitino should absolutely by their first choice.

[mpfunk]

He would be nuts not to take it. But UCLA should aim higher.

If Pitino says no to the job, I can see going after Shaka Smart. I also think there are a couple other coaches that UCLA should look at after Smart.

Pitino is perfect fit for UCLA. The only coaches that should be considered before Pitino are coaches that already have fantastic jobs and aren't about to leave.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Per twitter, Shaka turns down UCLA and signs an extension with VCU through 2023

[LA Ute]

Per twitter, Shaka turns down UCLA and signs an extension with VCU through 2023

So the search for a coach who plays "a fun style of basketball" continues.

[UtahDan]

Per twitter, Shaka turns down UCLA and signs an extension with VCU through 2023

Well they did just fire a guy who won 25 games this year and took them to 3 final fours. That may make a young guy leery.

[LA Ute]

Well they did just fire a guy who won 25 games this year and took them to 3 final fours. That may make a young guy leery.

Ya think? Guerrero seems like more and more a dope to me. Against the background of what happened to Ben Howland, his statement that he now wants a coach who plays "a fun style of basketball" is cringe-inducing to my UCLA fan buddies.

[UtahDan]

Ya think? Guerrero seems like more and more a dope to me. Against the background of what happened to Ben Howland, his statement that he now wants a coach who plays "a fun style of basketball" is cringe-inducing to my UCLA fan buddies.

I didn't even charge for that brilliant insight. That one's a freebie.

[LA Ute]

I didn't even charge for that brilliant insight. That one's a freebie.

I fully appreciate the brilliance of your insight, and fully agree with it.

[SoCalPat]

Wasn't duke in the final four chambers year in 66? They beat us for 3rd I think. They had a great tradition in the 50s and 60s.

Vic Bubas and Bill Foster (who actually left Utah for Duke) were outstanding coaches in their own right. And the guy they named Cameron Indoor after won 70 percent or so of his games in the 1930s-40s. Duke's a monster now, but they've rarely been bad for long stretches.

[SeattleUte]

Vic Bubas and Bill Foster (who actually left Utah for Duke) were outstanding coaches in their own right. And the guy they named Cameron Indoor after won 70 percent or so of his games in the 1930s-40s. Duke's a monster now, but they've rarely been bad for long stretches.

Utah now may have a bigger tradition than Duke did before Coach K.

[LA Ute]

If hot young coaches keep turning the Bruins down, it may become very difficult for them to get someone really good to take that job.

[SeattleUte]

If hot young coaches keep turning the Bruins down, it may become very difficult for them to get someone really good to take that job.

Your anti-UCLA resentment is pointless and counterproductive. UCLA will hire a worthy coach. Sorry.

[LA Ute]

Your anti-UCLA resentment is pointless and counterproductive. UCLA will hire a worthy coach. Sorry.

Dan Patrick agrees with me. So do most educated and very smart people, including scientists.

[concerned]

UCLA has had a history of having trouble hiring coaches. Pretty much the same thing happened when they hired Lavin and Harrick (Bartow i cant remember). Its tradition outweighs its appeal and resources. It will affect us, because they are going to pay a lot of new PAC 12 tv money if they really want to bring in a name worthy of the tradition (if they can), and it will ripple thru the conference. i cant believe how much coaches at mid tier schools like VCU and Butler make.

[SeattleUte]

UCLA hires Alford. LA and concerned, Are you chastened?

[concerned]

UCLA hires Alford. LA and concerned, Are you chastened?

just the opposite. Very few people think alford is a better coach than Howland. Alford was third choica at best. And they have to pay his new buyout and overpay him.

[Rocker Ute]

just the opposite. Very few people think alford is a better coach than Howland. Alford was third choica at best. And they have to pay his new buyout and overpay him.

Agreed. Alford is a solid hire, but I don't know if he is the guy that gets them winning championships. Back when we were doing our coaching search I would have taken Alford in a heartbeat. Probably still would (although I think we are on the right track with Kodiak).

[concerned]

UCLA hires Alford. LA and concerned, Are you chastened?

Apparently the buyout is only $150K. The new $1 million buyout does not kick in until Monday.

[SeattleUte]

Agreed. Alford is a solid hire, but I don't know if he is the guy that gets them winning championships. Back when we were doing our coaching search I would have taken Alford in a heartbeat. Probably still would (although I think we are on the right track with Kodiak).

Whoever came up with the Kodiak nickname that's a good one. Good work.

[SeattleUte]

I think the Alford hire is not unlike the Arizona's Lute Olsen hire way back when. Olsen had been at Iowa, and was making a career of being subordinate to Knight. Alford likewise was at Iowa, a program that I think is terminally a Big Ten coaches graveyard. Sort of the Iowa State of the Big Ten. New Mexico as well is a structurally challenged program, if the aim is national prominence. At UCLA Alford is finally in a place where he can rise to greatness, and he brings the Knight tree with him. It's a great hire for the Pac 12. I know he wears a blue blazer meanly, an absolute necessity at UCLA, which is why I never worried about Majerus taking that job.

I respect Alford for making this move. The easy thing to do would have been to stay at New Mexico. Too bad for Brad Brad Stevens. Now he can terminally eat Georgetown's merde in the new Big East.

[LA Ute]

Steve Alford is the new UCLA coach. Didn't see that one coming!

[LA Ute]

UCLA hires Alford. LA and concerned, Are you chastened?

Lol. No. But I think it's a pretty good hire for UCLA at this point and a good move by Alford. I am not convinced he'll bring the "fun style of basketball" that the brilliant Guerrero said he wanted, however.


Here’s the thing: when people think about Alford, they are going to think about regular season success that doesn’t translate into postseason success. They’ll bring up the 5-7 record in the NCAA tournament. They’ll mention the fact that losing to No. 14 seed Harvard in the opening round this season wasn’t the first time that he’s failed to win a game in the NCAA tournament as a No. 3 seed; in 2006, his Iowa Hawkeyes got knocked off by Northwestern State.


Alford hasn’t been to a Sweet 16 this century. Three jobs ago, in 1999, he led Southwest Missouri State to the second weekend, which got him hired by Iowa. That was when Steve Lavin was still the head coach at UCLA. Lavin made it to five straight Sweet 16, and he was fired. His successor, Ben Howland, got to three straight Final Fours and he was fired. Alford has won three tournament games since we found out Y2K wasn’t actually something we should be concerned about.


And now think about this: Alford is just as cantankerous and arrogant as Howland. He’s not anymore media friendly. His coaching style is almost the same — Alford’s teams are known for their grind-it-out, physical defensive style. They’re not exactly showtime; he’s not Roy Williams.


In other words, UCLA basically just re-hired Ben Howland, only this time they got a guy that’s a little bit smaller with a full head of hair but not quite as much coaching acumen.



http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/30/steve-alford-isnt-ideal-for-ucla-but-hes-a-pretty-good-hire-nonetheless/

[mpfunk]

UCLA fans should be underwhelmed with the hire. Certainly not a bad choice, but they should do better.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Rocker Ute]

Whoever came up with the Kodiak nickname that's a good one. Good work.

I was going to take credit for it, like Apple took credit for the GUI and mouse driven interface, even though Xerox invented it. But in the spirit of the weekend holiday I'll give credit where credit is due. DownhereUte came up with it on July 18, 2012 on utefans.net in this post. (http://www.utefans.net/message.php?id=1383972#message1383972) It may be among the great nicknames of coaches of all time though.

RedBird, now is a great time to cash in on that name for your moniker. Wait don't, I want him to survive coaching here.

[SoCalPat]

UCLA has had a history of having trouble hiring coaches. Pretty much the same thing happened when they hired Lavin and Harrick (Bartow i cant remember). Its tradition outweighs its appeal and resources. It will affect us, because they are going to pay a lot of new PAC 12 tv money if they really want to bring in a name worthy of the tradition (if they can), and it will ripple thru the conference. i cant believe how much coaches at mid tier schools like VCU and Butler make.

I think your history of UCLA's hiring process is a bit off. Bartow's track record strongly suggests he was not UCLA's first choice (he was at Illinois for one year prior to UCLA and finished 9th), but who wanted to follow Wooden? Cunningham, Farmer and Hazzard were all players under Wooden. Lavin was the last man standing after Harrick was fired after practice began in 1996-97. Harrick was very much an in-demand coach, having had great success at Pepperdine. Ditto for Howland, who had west coast ties and huge success at Pitt, and Larry Brown as well.

It says a lot for UCLA when its "third choice" is a coach the caliber of Alford.

[LA Ute]

I think your history of UCLA's hiring process is a bit off. Bartow's track record strongly suggests he was not UCLA's first choice (he was at Illinois for one year prior to UCLA and finished 9th), but who wanted to follow Wooden? Cunningham, Farmer and Hazzard were all players under Wooden. Lavin was the last man standing after Harrick was fired after practice began in 1996-97. Harrick was very much an in-demand coach, having had great success at Pepperdine. Ditto for Howland, who had west coast ties and huge success at Pitt, and Larry Brown as well.

It says a lot for UCLA when its "third choice" is a coach the caliber of Alford.

IIRC, Howland was seen as a home-run hire for UCLA, or at least very promising. He was compared to Majerus.

[concerned]

[QUOTE=LA Ute;10312]IIRC, Howland was seen as a home-run hire for UCLA, or at least very promising. He was compared to Majerus.[/QUOTE

Howland was the only home run hire. Except for him all the others were underwhelming. Until SoCalPat listed them all, I had forgotten how many misfires UCLA has had. They may be lucky to get Alford as their third choice (at best, b/c they really couldn't afford to go after their home run choices, like Donovan), but I will be very surprised if Alford equals Howland's success. Heaven help him if he loses to Harvard.

[U-Ute]

I am actually afraid that Alford will be wildly successful at UCLA. i liked his teams at Iowa and New Mexico, and if his critique of Tavernari is any measuring stick, he had the chutzpah to deal with UCLA boosters.

In short: the guy can recruit, coach, and deal with assholes. He sounds perfect for UCLA.

[SoCalPat]

[QUOTE=LA Ute;10312]IIRC, Howland was seen as a home-run hire for UCLA, or at least very promising. He was compared to Majerus.[/QUOTE

Howland was the only home run hire. Except for him all the others were underwhelming. Until SoCalPat listed them all, I had forgotten how many misfires UCLA has had. They may be lucky to get Alford as their third choice (at best, b/c they really couldn't afford to go after their home run choices, like Donovan), but I will be very surprised if Alford equals Howland's success. Heaven help him if he loses to Harvard.

Outside of Farmer and Hazzard (who were slam dunk hires given their pedigree under Wooden), the credentials of the rest are pretty impressive. Harrick won a national title and Brown made it to the title game. Cunningham is UCLA's all-time leader in win percentage. Bartow was, by realistic standards, a huge success. Lavin went to the Sweet 16 just about every year (although he certainly could have done more).

If those coaches are misfires, then it sounds like UCLA fans aren't the only ones who have set the bar unrealistically high in light of Wooden's success. I get there's a difference between a "home-run hire" when it's made vs. actual results, but if UCLA fan could ever admit that Wooden doesn't win 10 national titles in the 64/68-team NCAA Tournament era, they would be largely satisfied with what the program has accomplished the last 35 years.

[LA Ute]

Pat, you need to know more UCLA fans.

Alford should be a good coach for UCLA but there's no reason to think he'll do any better than Howland did. In fact, there's reason to think he won't do as well.

[SeattleUte]

Pat, you need to know more UCLA fans.

Alford should be a good coach for UCLA but there's no reason to think he'll do any better than Howland did. In fact, there's reason to think he won't do as well.

Howland's primary problem wasn't that he didn't win enogh. The program was very troubled. There were a lot of transfers. The high roller boosters, hard core fans and alumni including many the former great players hated his style of play. Really, Howland's motion offense was completely wrong for the recruits he had.

UCLA has a tradition second to none. Historically, and presently, the school has recruited like Duke and Kentucky do now and better than Kansas. UCLA is entitled to better than Howland delivered. It's an old story. Good coach, good man, but the tradition devoured him. The same thing happened to Eddie Sutton and other good coaches at Kentucky. I bet Howland lands on his feet and is very successful at another major program. But UCLA needed a change.

The thing about Alford, is he was a superstar at Indiana under Knight, was the star of Indiana's last national championship, and experienced a refiner's fire at Iowa. What he's done at New Mexico is comparable to what Thad Mata did at Xavier, even Few at Gonzaga. I'm sure he longed for a program that would give him a real shot at the gold ring. Now he has it. I agree with U-Ute.

[LA Ute]

I am a UCLA fan. I just think Guerrero and the UCLA administration seem unable to deal effectively with he realities of their athletic situation. I hope Alford does well and he might be just the right mix of personality, experience and talent to do very well, if the fans and administration will let him. Right now his chief qualification is that he is not Howland, but that only lasts so long.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I don't like to disagree with SU, I think he is the most knowledgable bball poster on forums I frequent, I think this is an awful move for UCLA. Seems like desperation. UCLA should have reached for the stars and I don't see that here. As of today where does Alford rank amongst P12 coaches? Certainly behind Miller and Monty. Is he ahead of Altman? Boyle?

[SeattleUte]

I don't like to disagree with SU, I think he is the most knowledgable bball poster on forums I frequent, I think this is an awful move for UCLA. Seems like desperation. UCLA should have reached for the stars and I don't see that here. As of today where does Alford rank amongst P12 coaches? Certainly behind Miller and Monty. Is he ahead of Altman? Boyle?

You can't be serious. Alford has a much much richer resume than Boyle, and, yes, and with all due respect, he's a lot stronger hire than Altman was. Boyle had a sub-500 record at a big Sky school before Colorado. I'm not even sure how he got the job, even though he's outdone expectations. Until this season Altman had been out of the first round of the NCAA playoffs one time, and most of his post season experience was in the NIT and the CIT or CBI. He won 64% of his games at Creighton, a mid-major. his successor has done better. Altman, frankly, has surpassssed execptations, and probably because the Nike financed facilities have helped him recruit as never before.

is there a question that Alford can coach? He's won four out of the last five MWC regular season titles, the last two MWC tournament titles. He won two Big Ten tournament titles at Iowa (which I consider to be miraculous), and actually took Southwest Missouri State to the Sweet 16. His winning percentage at New Mexico is .749 (he had tough turnaround jobs at his previous jobs, but still has a 66% wins). Pardon him for not taking Iowa, New Mexico or SW Miss. St. to any final fours. He probably had substantial structural impediments to substantial NCAA success at those schools. The NCAA tournmanet can be a mystery and involve a lot of matchup serendipity, as this season shows. Lute Olsen won the NCAA title with a third or fourth place Pac 12 team loaded with underclassmen, but inexplicably lost several times in early rounds with seasoned teams that seemed primed for the Final Four. I think Alford made a bad turn in his career by going to Iowa after SW Miss. State.

But beyond the records, Alford has panache that no other Pac 12 coach can touch. As a collegian, he was a living legend like Larry Bird. Yes, it was a lot because he was white and a guard, but also he was the best player on the team that won the national championship in a wildly exciting always remembered game. He remains a celebrity with celebrity looks. He's perfect for UCLA.

[SoCalPat]

You can't be serious. Alford has a much much richer resume than Boyle, and, yes, and with all due respect, he's a lot stronger hire than Altman was. Boyle had a sub-500 record at a big Sky school before Colorado. I'm not even sure how he got the job, even though he's outdone expectations. Until this season Altman had been out of the first round of the NCAA playoffs one time, and most of his post season experience was in the NIT and the CIT or CBI. He won 64% of his games at Creighton, a mid-major. his successor has done better. Altman, frankly, has surpassssed execptations, and probably because the Nike financed facilities have helped him recruit as never before.

is there a question that Alford can coach? He's won four out of the last five MWC regular season titles, the last two MWC tournament titles. He won two Big Ten tournament titles at Iowa (which I consider to be miraculous), and actually took Southwest Missouri State to the Sweet 16. His winning percentage at New Mexico is .749 (he had tough turnaround jobs at his previous jobs, but still has a 66% wins). Pardon him for not taking Iowa, New Mexico or SW Miss. St. to any final fours. He probably had substantial structural impediments to substantial NCAA success at those schools. The NCAA tournmanet can be a mystery and involve a lot of matchup serendipity, as this season shows. Lute Olsen won the NCAA title with a third or fourth place Pac 12 team loaded with underclassmen, but inexplicably lost several times in early rounds with seasoned teams that seemed primed for the Final Four. I think Alford made a bad turn in his career by going to Iowa after SW Miss. State.

But beyond the records, Alford has panache that no other Pac 12 coach can touch. As a collegian, he was a living legend like Larry Bird. Yes, it was a lot because he was white and a guard, but also he was the best player on the team that won the national championship in a wildly exciting always remembered game. He remains a celebrity with celebrity looks. He's perfect for UCLA.

This is the perfect response to anyone who doubts the Alford hire. Well done SU. I can't remember a coaching hire that was made and followed up with such thoughtless, baseless insight. So New Mexico lost to Harvard, and Alford has never been to the Sweet 16. It took Wooden 15 years to win his first national title, and Wooden never had to beat more than four teams to win it all.

It's ridiculous to think Alford will rival anything Wooden did at UCLA. But that's nothing compared to the outlandish expectations UCLA fan has for the program. Howland could've won a national title in the three years he made it to the Final Four, and UCLA still would've run him and been unappreciative of what he did for the program. Shoot, UCLA fan's lasting memories of Jim Harrick aren't of the national title run, but that he was dumb enough to bring Steve Lavin on staff.

[SoCalPat]

Pat, you need to know more UCLA fans.

Alford should be a good coach for UCLA but there's no reason to think he'll do any better than Howland did. In fact, there's reason to think he won't do as well.

Spell 'em out.

[LA Ute]

Interesting Dennis Dodd piece on Alford. (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/13085576/forgive-alford-if-he-takes-time-to-gloat)

[LA Ute]

Spell 'em out.

I did already!

http://www.utahby5.com/showthread.php?548-UCLA-Agonistes&p=10299&viewfull=1#post10299

[concerned]

Interesting Dennis Dodd piece on Alford. (http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/13085576/forgive-alford-if-he-takes-time-to-gloat)

interesting take by Jon Wilner too

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2013/03/31/ucla-hires-steve-alford-good-coach-yep-good-hire-well-see/

[FountainOfUte]

...And Wooden never had to beat more than four teams to win it all.



Lol.

Winning championships was SO easy back then.

[FountainOfUte]

interesting take by Jon Wilner too

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2013/03/31/ucla-hires-steve-alford-good-coach-yep-good-hire-well-see/

Good article. You could replace UCLA with Utah, Guerrero with Hill, and Alford with Krystkowiak throughout the article and still have a pretty accurate piece regarding Utah's situation a couple years ago. Particularly this:


In the end, Guerrero must have concluded that Alford was the best combination of 1) a good coach who 2) wanted the job

[SoCalPat]

Lol.

Winning championships was SO easy back then.

It wasn't easy, but it was easier. There's a significant difference. How many games did UCLA get to play at Pauley in those championship years? How many No. 2 teams from power conferences never got their shot at UCLA because of the field's restrictive nature (only one school per league). Hell yes it's tougher to win one national championship today than it was in Wooden's era.

Wooden and UCLA's feat was incredible for it's time, but it has no place when drawing up standards and expectations in today's game.

[SeattleUte]

This is the perfect response to anyone who doubts the Alford hire. Well done SU. I can't remember a coaching hire that was made and followed up with such thoughtless, baseless insight. So New Mexico lost to Harvard, and Alford has never been to the Sweet 16. It took Wooden 15 years to win his first national title, and Wooden never had to beat more than four teams to win it all.

It's ridiculous to think Alford will rival anything Wooden did at UCLA. But that's nothing compared to the outlandish expectations UCLA fan has for the program. Howland could've won a national title in the three years he made it to the Final Four, and UCLA still would've run him and been unappreciative of what he did for the program. Shoot, UCLA fan's lasting memories of Jim Harrick aren't of the national title run, but that he was dumb enough to bring Steve Lavin on staff.

No, it may not be possible to win 10 championships in 12 years again. But Mike K. would have tied Wooden's record 12 Final Fours had he won yesterday. And in some ways it was tougher when there were 32 teams because if youd didn't win your conference, you went to the NIT. There were no at large bids. UCLA rarely had close games in the NCAA playoffs. It was usually blow out after blow out; yawn (yes, I'm aware of the exceptions; as a youngster I attended Wooden's last national championship, winning the semifinal in maybe the best game I've ever seen, over his protege Denny Crum, beating Louisville rallying after trailing most of the game and winning 76-75 on a buzzer beater in overtime; UCLA tried to hire Crum; the prior year NC State beat UCLA in the semi- in overtime; these were exceptions; Alcindor et al. slaughtering Elvin Hayes and Houston by maybe 30 in the title game, or Walton et al. annihilating Memphis in the title game was maybe the norm). Yes, UCLA had tons and tons of talent; the players light up the NBA and NCAA halls of fame. But let's not forget what an extraordinary human being Wooden was. As Dave Rice and Howland have shown, tons of talent can't solve all your problems. And as So Cal notes, it took a while for Wooden the great to mature and deveop.

As Wilner notes, UCLA is saying, we want a program like Duke's, even better than Michigan State's, nothing less. Wilner acknowledges UCLA isn't crazy. It has arguably the best tradition in the best recruiting grounds in the U.S. and a lovely campus and world class universty. I don't think that aspiration is unrealistic, and I think that with the tools he has to work with Alford is as likely to do it as anyone (outside of Donovan or Mike K., who were not available).

For you RPI lovers, Alford had New Mexico at no. 2 at season's end, and beat a loaded Vegas team in Vegas for the MWC tournament championship. This may be more telling than the faux pas vs. Harvard by an overachieving New Mexico. Arguably Alford's accomplsihments at New Mexico have been comparable to Few's at Gonzaga. The sports writers would have loved a Few hire by UCLA. I'm not sure it would have been a better hire.

[mpfunk]

As Wilner notes, UCLA is saying, we want a program like Duke's, even better than Michigan State's, nothing less. Wilner acknowledges UCLA isn't crazy. It has arguably the best tradition in the best recruiting grounds in the U.S. and a lovely campus and world class universty. I don't think that aspiration is unrealistic, and I think that with the tools he has to work with Alford is as likely to do it as anyone (outside of Donovan or Mike K., who were not available).



You are missing several names, which also might not have been available, who would be more likely to be successful at UCLA than Alford. Rick Pitino, Roy Williams, John Calipari, Tom Izzo. That is just to name a few.

Alford isn't a bad hire, but he is far from a slam dunk hire. If I'm UCLA, I'm worried about his underachieving twice as a 3 seed and getting knocked out in the first round. I'm not convinced they did anything to upgrade over Howland.

[SeattleUte]

I'm not convinced they did anything to upgrade over Howland.

Howland wasn't fired because he's a bad coach or was incapable of winning a national championship at UCLA. Actually, the Wilner article pretty much gets it at least as to why he was fired.

[FountainOfUte]

Wooden and UCLA's feat was incredible for it's time, but it has no place when drawing up standards and expectations in today's game.

I know, Pat, but I won't sneeze at any school that's won 11 championships in anything. Wooden's run in basketball was amazing.

I've heard some folks suggest that not everything was on the up and up in Westwood in those glory years. Maybe, maybe not; who knows? EVEN THEN their streaks of wins and championships is hard to fathom.

[LA Ute]

I am hearing a lot of buzz these days (lots of it on Dan Patrick's show, which I listen to while working out in the morning) about the impact of AAU coaches on D1 recruiting. Apparently Wilner thinks that was a big problem for Howland. What's everyone else hearing about AAU basketball and how it's changed college recruiting?

[SoCalPat]

I am hearing a lot of buzz these days (lots of it on Dan Patrick's show, which I listen to while working out in the morning) about the impact of AAU coaches on D1 recruiting. Apparently Wilner thinks that was a big problem for Howland. What's everyone else hearing about AAU basketball and how it's changed college recruiting?

It's my understanding that under previous Utah coaches, that they were banned from working that circuit.

That's second-hand. The biggest hinderance to recruiting was the Under Armour deal. UA was a non-player in AAU and prep basketball when we signed that deal, and while I'm assuming they've made strides there, they are a long ways from being in the same circle with Nike, Reebok or Adidas.

AAU and the sneaker people go hand in hand. With one, you get the other and vice versa.

[LA Ute]

After 30+ years of watching UCLA basketball amid many Bruin fans, I'm beginning to think the school's program will not recover until everyone who was alive during the Wooden era has died. Maybe even a little longer.

New UCLA basketball Coach Steve Alford's honeymoon was very short (http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-0519-steve-alford-ucla-20130519,0,6052133.story)


UCLA and Steve Alford.

A basketball program of unmatched pedigree led by a former prodigy who became a national champion and Olympic gold medalist before making a steady climb up the coaching ladder.

On paper, a harmonic convergence.

How they came together, a choreography of those themes, would make for a dazzling introduction, which UCLA held at center court in historic Pauley Pavilion last month.

The aura of John Wooden, his contributions to sports and society — and those 10 national titles — was thick. Alford mentioned Wooden three times in his first three minutes at the microphone.

"We found a coach that not only represents and honors the treasured history of UCLA's place in college basketball, but also a coach who will bring a brand of unselfish basketball," Athletic Director Dan Guerrero gushed.

What could go wrong?

Plenty.

When the news conference was over, what was supposed to be a breezy, feel-good event quickly turned sticky and uncomfortable.

During a one-on-one interview, Iowa came up. Alford, who coached the Hawkeyes for eight seasons, was asked about his staunch defense of Pierre Pierce, a player accused of sexually assaulting another student in 2002....

[Two Utes]

It's my understanding that under previous Utah coaches, that they were banned from working that circuit.

That's second-hand. The biggest hinderance to recruiting was the Under Armour deal. UA was a non-player in AAU and prep basketball when we signed that deal, and while I'm assuming they've made strides there, they are a long ways from being in the same circle with Nike, Reebok or Adidas.

AAU and the sneaker people go hand in hand. With one, you get the other and vice versa.

I think the pumpn run outfit is now associated with under armour, so they are making in roads in AAU. AAU is the downfall of college basketball. The worst thing to ever happen to the sport at the college (and high school) level, IMO.

[SeattleUte]

After 30+ years of watching UCLA basketball amid many Bruin fans, I'm beginning to think the school's program will not recover until everyone who was alive during the Wooden era has died. Maybe even a little longer.

New UCLA basketball Coach Steve Alford's honeymoon was very short (http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-0519-steve-alford-ucla-20130519,0,6052133.story)

Meh. All he has to do is win a few national championships and all will be well.

[LA Ute]

Looks like he got a good one here.

Report: One-time Texas Tech signee Wannah Bail verbally commits to UCLA (http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/05/31/report-one-time-texas-tech-signee-wannah-bail-headed-to-ucla/)