The Official Civil War Thread

[LA Ute]

Here's a thread for people who want to discuss the Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression. A starter:

Gettysburg Part of America's Soul (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/04/14/gettysburg_part_of_americas_soul_117942.html#.UWsA IM_AQiA.twitter). Excerpt:


As our country becomes more diluted by societal and cultural influences, Gettysburg holds onto its value. It remains embedded in our national memory. Perhaps that is so because it is much easier to understand the whole war in one word — Gettysburg.


More likely it is because, like America itself, this is a place worthy of being preserved.

[Ma'ake]

Nice column. I've become surprised and a little astonished at the lingering, latent hostility in the South about the Civil War. Actually, it's spread out of the South and into a fair chunk of the Right, who see Lincoln as the beginning of the end of America, as the Framers envisioned it, with power shifted toward the federal government, with examples like forced desegregation, the Civil Rights Act, etc. The issue has sort of morphed from being a racial issue, through the accusations of communist allegiance by MLK, to now a 10th Amendment balance of power stance, and how we need to get back to what the framers envisioned.

There's a revisionist history alive and well about the Civil War, claiming it had nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with tariffs from the Northen bullies. Except every Article of Secession from each southern state mentions slavery numerous times, and the tariff issue not at all. These are usually the same people who blame the Jim Crow laws on Northern carpet-baggers, and claim slaves had it good compared to blacks in Africa.

Fascinating stuff.

[LA Ute]

Only real nuts on the far right see it that way, Ma'ake. Lincoln is the hero of mainstream Republicans. Read the Power Line blog for examples, or check out the Claremont Institute or Hoover Institution sites.

[Utebiquitous]

Maake,
I've noticed in my extended family some of the feelings you mention. I have relatives in South Carolina (they're not from there but moved there years ago) who have adopted the Southern resentment - resentment based on Sherman's March. Oh how they lament over Sherman's destruction. Certainly, there was reason for lamentation and anger but it's interesting to sit back and think about Sherman's reasons from his perspective and a northern perspective. Right or wrong, the concept of Total War may have been a significant reason why the Southern generals followed Lee's example and surrendered rather than follow Jefferson Davis' pleas to engage in guerilla warfare.

By the way, someone on the board - it may have been you LA - suggested Winik's April 1865 as a must read. I'm just finishing it. Wow! I hope many of these details are making their way into history classes across this country. They certainly weren't part of my classes in K-12 or even at the U. There was a lot on Lincoln, Lee and Grant. Even so, I'm reading for the first time the actions of Lee post-Appomattox and in particular, the actions of Johnston and Sherman. General Johnston is a singular figure when you really ponder his decision to go against Davis' orders and surrender to Sherman. It seems to me that Americans (southerners/northerners, democrats/republicans) need to know more about the nobility of these Civil War figures - and about their commitment to a Union as the Civil War came to an end.

[LA Ute]

Winik's book is a relatively quick read and full of nuggets of great information.

[LA Ute]

For those interested, a Smithsonian publication:

The Ultimate Guide to the Civil War (https://secure.customersvc.com/maitrd/smithsonian/civil_war/order.jsp?SOURCE_CD=CVLWAR24)

[LA Ute]

From Mike Allen's Politico Playbook today:


Early Monday morning is the 150th anniversary of the first shot in the Battle of Gettysburg, which lasted three days. Per the National Park Service's Gettysburg National Military Park in Pennsylvania (40 miles southwest of Harrisburg): "The Battle of Gettysburg was a turning point in the Civil War, the Union victory that ended General Robert E. Lee's second and most ambitious invasion of the North. Often referred to as the 'High Water Mark of the Rebellion,' Gettysburg was the war's bloodiest battle with 51,000 casualties. It was also the inspiration for President Abraham Lincoln's immortal 'Gettysburg Address.'"

Also from Mike Allen's Playbook:


"Gettysburg-Mapping the Battlefield: New map may explain Lee's decisions at Gettysburg," by AP's Michael Rubinkam in Gettysburg: "Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee listened to scouting reports, scanned the battlefield and ordered his second-in-command, James Longstreet, to attack the Union Army's left flank. ... [Lee] never again ventured into Northern territory. Why did ... Lee ... attack ... in the face of the Union's superior numbers? ... [G]eographers and cartographers have come up with ... mapping software that shows the rolling terrain ... as it would have appeared to Lee: ... [H]e simply couldn't see throngs of Union soldiers amid the hills and valleys. ... Developed for the Smithsonian Institution to mark Gettysburg's 150th anniversary, the panoramic map went live on the Smithsonian website Friday." See the map. http://bit.ly/19GDvHz (http://go.politicoemail.com/?qs=e6c1cbce7e129677df19fe3f875cb2d21d977ba3ecd315 10bee12c1c936a78b5) Read the story. http://bit.ly/115dhej (http://go.politicoemail.com/?qs=e6c1cbce7e1296771541b745cbc3dfcf9d2ddfe9cd6fd6 2b5d9d4a35133e28fe)

[pangloss]

Only real nuts on the far right see it that way, Ma'ake. Lincoln is the hero of mainstream Republicans. Read the Power Line blog for examples, or check out the Claremont Institute or Hoover Institution sites.

Are there any 'mainstream Republicans' still in office?

I think it would be the kiss of death in the next nominating process for someone in the party to describe himself as 'moderate' or mainstream. When Sen. Rubio admitted to speaking with a Democrat and offered a negotiated immigration bill, the hard core turned on him. Sen. Bob Bennett was drummed out of the club as 'too establishment'. Neither one of them would be classified as moderate 25 years ago.

Not that I'm a student of Republican politics, but I don't think Goldwater, John Lindsey, Nelson Rockefeller, George Romney, Dwight Eisenhower or Nixon would even try in today's environment without drastically changing their positions.



cheers

[LA Ute]

Are there any 'mainstream Republicans' still in office?

I think it would be the kiss of death in the next nominating process for someone in the party to describe himself as 'moderate' or mainstream. When Sen. Rubio admitted to speaking with a Democrat and offered a negotiated immigration bill, the hard core turned on him. Sen. Bob Bennett was drummed out of the club as 'too establishment'. Neither one of them would be classified as moderate 25 years ago.

Not that I'm a student of Republican politics, but I don't think Goldwater, John Lindsey, Nelson Rockefeller, George Romney, Dwight Eisenhower or Nixon would even try in today's environment without drastically changing their positions.

cheers

I think ideological purity has been a problem for the GOP for a long time, but in fairness, all the guys you list were, and always have been, considered liberal Republicans or maybe moderates (Eisenhower and Nixon in the latter camp). It was a problem for them even then. There are no liberal Republicans left and the definition of "moderate" has moved rightward. The positions Romney took in 2012 would make him a hard-core conservative in 1980 but made him a moderate in 2012.

[USS Utah]

I made the mistake over a decade ago of joining discussions about the ACW with southern partisans. I'm a World War II guy and I was not prepared for the level emotional investment these folks had in events almost 140 years in the review mirror. With most, there was simply no reasoning with them (just las with the tea partiers today); their ancestor did not fight to preserve slavery, Lincoln was a murderer, and the South was right, and if I didn't see it their way, I was patronizingly informed that I should educate myself. Granted, I was kind of new to the ACW -- WBTS, as they put it -- having broadened my horizons beyond WWII just a few years before, but I was no simpleton, either. What was readily apparent to me -- with my WWII informed perspective -- was born out the more I studied the war.

I specifically tracked the tariff from before the Nullification Crisis, and confirmed that it couldn't have been the issue that sparked the war -- an old wound, sure, but the issue had clearly stabilized by the late 1850s as the tariff came down. All of the arguments in the run up to the war regarded the possible extension of slavery into the territories gained in the War with Mexico. Southern Democrats in 1860 would not accept Stephen Douglas as their nominee because of the Kansas-Nebraska Act and the concept of popular sovereignty. So they split the field with two southern candidates, all but handing Lincoln the election, and Lincoln was viewed as a threat to the South on the issue of slavery.

As for Lincoln being the beginning of the end, the role of the president and the federal government largely returned to business as usual until FDR and the New Deal, which I would argue was much more significant than anything Lincoln did in trying to hold the Union together. Sherman's March? Sorry, but that was a garden party compared to what we did to Germany and Japan, yet the same people labeling Sherman a war criminal will stop well short of suggesting that Arnold, Spaatz, Eaker, Doolittle or LeMay did anything wrong.

The cumulative affect of all those ACW discussions had the effect of lessening my interest in that war -- especially the politics of it. Sometimes, if I just stick to battles and campaigns, I can enjoy it.

[LA Ute]

The Battle of Gettysburg began 150 years ago today.

[DrumNFeather]

The Battle of Gettysburg began 150 years ago today.

History channel has a new special on about it tonight at 10 PM est.

[USS Utah]

Army Magazine articles (PDF links):

"Gettysburg and Vicksburg at 150"

http://www.ausa.org/publications/armymagazine/archive/2013/07/Documents/HistoricallySpeaking_July2013.pdf

"Why GEN Lee Ordered Pickett's Charge"

http://www.ausa.org/publications/armymagazine/archive/2013/07/Documents/Kingseed_July2013.pdf

"Remembering MG George G. Meade: The Forgotten Victor of Gettysburg"

http://www.ausa.org/publications/armymagazine/archive/2013/07/Documents/Farrell_July2013.pdf

[GarthUte]

This link (http://www.businessinsider.com/amazing-american-civil-war-photos-turned-into-glorious-color-2013-10#ixzz2gqxE2jiM) is to some photos taken during the Civil War. I'm not sure how I feel about them being colorized - I like the rawness of the old b&w photos - but these are still great to look at.

[LA Ute]

This is a great read for Civil War and Lincoln buffs:

Abraham Lincoln and George B. McClellan

http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/abraham-lincolns-contemporaries/abraham-lincoln-and-george-b-mcclellan/#algm

[Mormon Red Death]

I'm going to the site of the last battle of the civil war tomorrow (morrisville nc) I shall return and report

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[LA Ute]

I'm going to the site of the last battle of the civil war tomorrow (morrisville nc) I shall return and report

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Wow, sounds great. I will look forward to that.

[Mormon Red Death]

Wow, sounds great. I will look forward to that.
I guess it wasn't much of a battle but a "skirmish". I couldn't find the plaques so I went to the police station and happened upon a history buff who showed me where to go and gave me some more info on the Battle. Lee had already surrendered at appomattox but the rebels had two major portions of their army. Army of North VA and the AOT army of Tennessee. It was the AOT that surrendered in Durham (15 miles to the west) a couple days after this battle.

118711871187

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[Mormon Red Death]

I guess it wasn't much of a battle but a "skirmish". I couldn't find the plaques so I went to the police station and happened upon a history buff who showed me where to go and gave me some more info on the Battle. Lee had already surrendered at appomattox but the rebels had two major portions of their army. Army of North VA and the AOT army of Tennessee. It was the AOT that surrendered in Durham (15 miles to the west) a couple days after

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Apparently in the woods pictured above you can still find musket balls or other civil war stuff


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[LA Ute]

I guess it wasn't much of a battle but a "skirmish". I couldn't find the plaques so I went to the police station and happened upon a history buff who showed me where to go and gave me some more info on the Battle. Lee had already surrendered at appomattox but the rebels had two major portions of their army. Army of North VA and the AOT army of Tennessee. It was the AOT that surrendered in Durham (15 miles to the west) a couple days after this battle.

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Interesting. Lee couldn't surrender on behalf of the entire Confederacy, just the Army of Northern Virginia. The remaining forces also had to give up. The book "April 1865" tells how each one decided not to carry on the fight. That is a great book, as I've said before.

[U-Ute]

An interesting essay on who really won the Civil War, the transformation of the Republican Party, the creation of the Tea Party, and how they're all intertwined...

http://weeklysift.com/2014/08/11/not-a-tea-party-a-confederate-party/

[LA Ute]

I am not a fan of everything the Southern Poverty Law Center does, but this is compelling information. I have no patience for those Southerners who want to glorify the supposed "heroes" of the Confederacy. And they've done a lot of that for well over 150 years now.

The chart here showing the history of monuments, schools, and so forth constructed to honor Confederate officials is quite instructive.

https://www.splcenter.org/20160421/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy

[NorthwestUteFan]

That is fascinating. Thanks for posting.

[LA Ute]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.

[Diehard Ute]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.

Yet POTUS decides to go down the path that this is all about slavery. He actually said today where will this stop? Because Jefferson and Washington owned salves so they could be next.

There is just no way to state how completely off his rocker Trump is.


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[Mormon Red Death]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.
I'm good with that. I do have a question though... what about crazy horse? What about the statue of Brigham young? Both those were in open rebellion against the USA?

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[sancho]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.

I don't hate Robert E. Lee, and I am a little bothered by all the Lee bashing I see lately. I think there must have been some good southerners too, even though they were on the wrong side of history and morality. The nuances that you want to cast aside matter as much as everything else.

Anyway, tear the statues down for what they represent, but there's no need to re-write the man's history and turn him into a villain/terrorist.

[concerned]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.


Thomas Ricks pointed out that not only did he lead a rebellion (not a war, technically, he was a traitor) against the United States (resigning his commission in the US army), he led it in defense of slavery. Washington and Jefferson did not do that.

[LA Ute]

Thomas Ricks pointed out that not only did he lead a rebellion (not a war, technically, he was a traitor) against the United States (resigning his commission in the US army), he led it in defense of slavery. Washington and Jefferson did not do that.

And had his side prevailed in the war, the rest of world history would have been quite different, and the human suffering of slavery would have continued for several more decades, perhaps. So he is a hero to certain people, and that is a fact. But let's make him a matter of history and put his likeness in museums. Let's not make him a hero and put his statue and visage in places of honor, especially in states and cities that were not even part of the Confederacy. In other words, there's no need to vilify him, but there's certainly no need to honor him either. He made a tragic mistake, however honorable his intentions might have been.

[LA Ute]

And while I am ranting, let me also rant about Alexander Stephens. He was vice president of the Confederacy, but now his statue stands in Statuary Hall in the United States Capitol building. Every state gets two statues, I think, and Mr. Stephens was one of Georgia's choices. Grrrr.

[LA Ute]

This is a strong presentation on the role of slavery in the Confederacy's decision to secede and fight.

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/1508674905842027/

[Mormon Red Death]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450500/destroying-confederate-statues-whats-end-point-washington-monument


but I can’t believe that the white supremacists, small and feeble as their movement is, would disappear if all of the old Confederate statues were taken down. If anything, that would give them a fillip of energy, a recruitment tool. The best response to white supremacists is to let them march and let them speak — then ridicule and marginalize them. This isn’t hard: They’re already ridiculous and marginal. Civil War statues may be beloved by white supremacists, but they are a kind of speech, and the antidote to bad speech is more speech. Don’t care for a statue of Robert E. Lee? Fine. I don’t either. Let’s recontextualize it. Let’s put up a statue of Harriet Tubman next to it.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450500/destroying-confederate-statues-whats-end-point-washington-monument Freakonomics talked about the KKK once where they said the best way our country marginalized them was through media like comic books and cartoons (making them the villian).

[UtahsMrSports]

This is a strong presentation on the role of slavery in the Confederacy's decision to secede and fight.

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/1508674905842027/

Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.

[U-Ute]

I'm good with that. I do have a question though... what about crazy horse? What about the statue of Brigham young? Both those were in open rebellion against the USA?

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Neither of those are supported by tax money.

I'm fine with private displays. That's First Amendment.

[U-Ute]

By the way, I feel that LA Ute's prescience in creating this thread in 2013 should not go unnoticed.

His crystal ball has no limit.

[LA Ute]

Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.

Important point. Not everybody in the north was a saint, and not all of the north's motives were saintly. But the right side won.

But I can't stand it when fans of the south try to paint their cause as noble, or solely about states' rights. Then there is the depiction of Lincoln as a terrible villain or dictator. It's amazing how many people still believe that.

[UtahsMrSports]

Important point. Not everybody in the north was a saint, and not all of the north's motives were saintly. But the right side won.

But I can't stand it when fans of the south try to paint their cause as noble, or solely about states' rights. Then there is the depiction of Lincoln as a terrible villain or dictator. It's amazing how many people still believe that.

Very, very well said. I agree completely.

[mUUser]

......He actually said today where will this stop? Because Jefferson and Washington owned salves so they could be next.

There is just no way to state how completely off his rocker Trump is.


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It already happened in New Orleans. Right? In fact, there's a number of petitions around the country to remove the names of slaveholders to public schools, currency, etc..... It's early, but, it will gain traction as time marches on. Having said that, I've spent most of my adult life in the south and have no problem at all moving these statues to museums. But, it's naive to think it will stop with confederate leaders/soldiers. Andrew Jackson & James Madison are already on the chopping block.

I visited Seattle this summer and there's a statue of Lenin in one of their quirkier neighborhoods. The leader of the bolshevik revolution has outlasted Lee.

[USS Utah]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.

Robert E. Lee and Secession:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/flattopshistorywarpolitics/robert-e-lee-and-secession-t410.html

[Mormon Red Death]

I heard someone make a good point today about Robert E Lee: His place in history resulted from his decision to lead a mighty army (The Army of Northern Virginia) in a war against the United States -- the bloodiest war in our history. You can talk about all the nuances you want, but ultimately that is the fact. Statues of Lee belong in museums, not in public places of honor.
Lee made his bones in the Mexican American war. He might be the greatest General our country has produced, (there are barracks named for him at west point). He was also a us citizen. He was presidential pardoned. He has a place in our history. It's not as simple as he committed rebellion.

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[USS Utah]

Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.

There are two main myths regarding the ACW, "the treasured values" of the North and "the lost cause" of the South:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/flattopshistorywarpolitics/the-better-angels-why-we-are-still-fighting-the-am-t3292.html

[LA Ute]

Lee made his bones in the Mexican American war. He might be the greatest General our country has produced, (there are barracks named for him at west point). He was also a us citizen. He was presidential pardoned. He has a place in our history. It's not as simple as he committed rebellion.

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There's no question he was a extraordinary man and, I think, a fine human being. But he is remembered now, and has his place in history, because he led the Army of Northern Virginia against the Union. There is no getting around that. The history of how he got to that point is indeed interesting and quite tragic, in the classical sense. I'm not saying he was not a great leader, or that in his mind his motives were not honorable. He simply made the wrong choice. I don't think he deserves to have his statue up in public places of honor. He belongs in a museum.

[Ma'ake]

Not that my comment here is totally relevant, but I worry that when people look at the civil war that they look at the north as some sort of morally superior heroes. Yes, the Civil War was about slavery, but it had far more to do with economics than it did with human rights.

There's the grade-school versions, which are the North fighting to free slaves, and in the South, "protecting our honor", states rights, etc.

Grown ups learn it's a more complex issue.

Curiously, for Lincoln, before the war he wanted it to be about states rights, tariffs, etc, because those items are more negotiable, slavery less so. Southern revisionists today maintain is was 90% about tariffs and states rights, but exactly none of the articles of Secession mention tariffs, and they all refer to slavery.

The minor role of Union General Benjamin Butler is a fascinating read, and reveals the stresses on - and fascinating decision making paralysis from - Lincoln as war became imminent. Butler also invented a novel legal concept that is widely used today.

Eventually, Lincoln concluded it was about slavery, he gave the Gettysburg address, and it was "war on!".

The number of statutes to Confederate War heroes in the South is as much about resentment against Yankee carpetbaggers, the need to instill via Jim Crow laws social dominance over freed blacks using worship of pro-slavery "heroes", and the vague threat that "the South will rise again".

While conservatives and white supremacists lament the lack of progress in achievement among blacks, they don't mention the impressive multi-generational persistence of virulently racist social practices, like the OU fraternity "tradition" of singing that horribly racist song. (If this is what is happening at a respected institution of higher learning - you know, the "leaders of tomorrow" - imagine the corresponding traditions at less lofty social institutions.)

[LA Ute]

While conservatives and white supremacists lament the lack of progress in achievement among blacks, they don't mention the impressive multi-generational persistence of virulently racist social practices, like the OU fraternity "tradition" of singing that horribly racist song. (If this is what is happening at a respected institution of higher learning - you know, the "leaders of tomorrow" - imagine the corresponding traditions at less lofty social institutions.)

Which conservatives?

[mUUser]

Which conservatives?


Doesn't matter.

We're a binary country. Nuance & a persons body of work throughout their life is meaningless. You're either good or evil. I would think you'd see the last few days of this thread on Lee as evidence of that.

[UTEopia]

Last year I read A. Lincoln by Ronald C White, Jr. I thought it was well researched and written. It certainly went beyond high school civics in discussing the nuances of the issues of the time and how Lincoln handled them both before being elected and as POTUS. While I had always admired Lincoln, after reading the book I was even more impressed and grateful that he was POTUS during those pivotal years.

[LA Ute]

What Do We Say About Decent Men Who Died for a Wicked Cause?

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/08/15/say-decent-men-died-wicked-cause/

[UTEopia]

What Do We Say About Decent Men Who Died for a Wicked Cause?

https://pjmedia.com/spengler/2017/08/15/say-decent-men-died-wicked-cause/

Excellent read. I will keep reading the articles you tag as long as you keep tagging them.

[Mormon Red Death]

So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/18/544407092/maryland-state-house-removes-statue-of-judge-who-wrote-dred-scott-decision?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170818) because of how they interpreted the Law?

[LA Ute]

So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/18/544407092/maryland-state-house-removes-statue-of-judge-who-wrote-dred-scott-decision?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170818) because of how they interpreted the Law?

I don't think so. He didn't wage war against the United States. And the country is not dotted with his statue, even in places that were not even part of that war.

[NorthwestUteFan]

So we take down statues of Supreme Court Justices (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/18/544407092/maryland-state-house-removes-statue-of-judge-who-wrote-dred-scott-decision?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20170818) because of how they interpreted the Law?Taney deserves to have his statue removed just for writing the Dred Scott decision.

Maryland can replace it with Thurgood Marshall, who was from MD.

[USS Utah]

A letter written by Robert E. Lee on the subject of slavery, dated December 27, 1856:

http://www.civilwarhome.com/leepierce.htm

After the Civil War Lee did not want to fly the Confederate flag or have any memorials.

[LA Ute]

Here's what Robert E. Lee thought about Confederate monuments (http://www.businessinsider.com/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments-2017-8)


"As regards the erection of such a monument as is contemplated, my conviction is, that, however grateful it would be to the feelings of the South, the attempt, in the present condition of the country, would have the effect of retarding instead of accelerating its accomplishment, and of continuing if not adding to the difficulties under which the Southern people labor....I think it wiser…not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered."

[Mormon Red Death]

I don't think so. He didn't wage war against the United States. And the country is not dotted with his statue, even in places that were not even part of that war.
Well if you read the article it was taken down last night

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[LA Ute]

Well if you read the article it was taken down last night

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I think that goes a bit too far, although I get it. I personally draw the line at Confederate war heroes.

[mUUser]

Taney deserves to have his statue removed just for writing the Dred Scott decision......


But why stop there.

Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.

[LA Ute]

But why stop there.

Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.

Like I said, I think removing statues should be limited to Confederate heroes. They are in a special category.

The statue of Lenin should come down too.

[NorthwestUteFan]

But why stop there.

Arguably, for consistency sake, you'd want to remove monuments of Oliver Wendall Holmes for his famous "Three generations of imbeciles are enough” opinion in the eugenics case, which, according to PBS led to the forced sterilization of 65,000 learning & mentally disabled americans. And, what about Hugo Black for his majority opinion upholding FDR's executive order to hold over 70,000 law abiding Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WW2, not a single one of which was ever convicted of espionage. Both those opinions went far beyond the pale as well, and were based wholly on bigotry & racism....not on science, fact or a reasonable reading of the law. And in such a clear case of racism (several reports at the time indicated Japanese-Americans or nationals were no threat to military efforts or US security), why let FDR off the hook -- his monuments should come down too.

I'm not advocating the removal of FDR etc....but, if we begin removing monuments of our forebears based on their worst decisions, then logically, our actions should go far beyond Taney. What FDR did was unforgivable as well.

Do we have statues to those judges? And if so, were they placed to be a reminder that this people need to always remember they are marginalized by society and the State? That slippery slope argument is silly.

And the Lenin statues misunderstood. After the fall of the Soviet Union the statue was found in a junkyard in Eastern Europe and was brought to Seattle by a private donor and it sits on private land. Various times during the year it gets dressed up in silly clothes (eg. Easter dress and bonnet for Easter, etc). It is currently for sale if you are so offended by it that you want it gone.

[LA Ute]

And the Lenin statues misunderstood. After the fall of the Soviet Union the statue was found in a junkyard in Eastern Europe and was brought to Seattle by a private donor and it sits on private land. Various times during the year it gets dressed up in silly clothes (eg. Easter dress and bonnet for Easter, etc). It is currently for sale if you are so offended by it that you want it gone.

I didn't know the story behind it, so thanks for that. Looks like the statue is indeed on private land, but in a public place. I'm not sure that would solve the controversy over the Confederate statues, so I'm not sure it solves this one either. You seem to have little patience for anyone being offended by the Lenin statue. Are you not offended by it? Do you see why anybody might find it offensive, or maybe just wrong? Anyway, I think some public-spirited tech billionaire should buy it for the $250,000 asking price and move it to a museum.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.kiro7.com/news/local/lenin-statue-in-seattle-read-a-q-and-a-about-how-it-got-to-fremont/593995414

[NorthwestUteFan]

I see the Lenin statue as a cool memento celebrating the fall of the USSR.

[LA Ute]

I see the Lenin statue as a cool memento celebrating the fall of the USSR.

Insert in that sentence "Confederate" instead of "Lenin" and "defeat of the Confederacy" instead of "the fall of the USSR" and you've got an argument -- disingenuous as it is -- for leaving up the memorials to Confederate heroes. (You're not disingenuous.)

[NorthwestUteFan]

I see the Lenin statue more like the Walther PPK and Nazi flag my grandfather took from an SS officer after blowing up his Panzer tank and pulling the crew to safety. It is a war trophy brought to this country by a private citizen, and not anything more.

The Robert E Lee statue was erected in 1920 to remind black GIs returning from the war that they were still second fucking class citizens in the country they just defended overseas.

[U-Ute]

Insert in that sentence "Confederate" instead of "Lenin" and "defeat of the Confederacy" instead of "the fall of the USSR" and you've got an argument -- disingenuous as it is -- for leaving up the memorials to Confederate heroes. (You're not disingenuous.)

Except that the Lenin statue is (from what I gather), kept around for the purposes of mockery. I don't see that with the Confederate ones.

[LA Ute]

Except that the Lenin statue is (from what I gather), kept around for the purposes of mockery. I don't see that with the Confederate ones.

If so, that makes it better, IMO. Still, the statue portrays Lenin in a very heroic pose and is located in a very lefty part of a very liberal city. Color me a little skeptical. And in terms of pure villainy and murdererous impact on the world, General Lee is not even in the same universe as Lenin. I'd still rather see both of them in a museum in any place where people have to look at them while walking by.

[mUUser]

If so, that makes it better, IMO. Still, the statue portrays Lenin in a very heroic pose and is located in a very lefty part of a very liberal city. Color me a little skeptical. And in terms of pure villainy and murdererous impact on the world, General Lee is not even in the same universe as Lenin. I'd still rather see both of them in a museum in any place where people have to look at them while walking by.


Lenin was nothing short of a murderous genocidal maniac responsible for millions of deaths of innocent people, and am doubtful that the living descendants of those starved/killed under his and Stalins regime are amused by the statue, even when dressed in a skirt. Having said that, it's a private statue on private land, and, so as far as I'm concerned it's a free speech issue -- game, set and match for the owner of the statue. Plus, the local community doesn't seem too concerned about it, and these decisions when necessary should largely be made at the local level.

However, the liberal mayor of Seattle has recently found a conscience and has become empathetic to the Russian immigrants in his city and has called for the removal of the statue.

[LA Ute]

Lenin was nothing short of a murderous genocidal maniac responsible for millions of deaths of innocent people, and am doubtful that the living descendants of those starved/killed under his and Stalins regime are amused by the statue, even when dressed in a skirt. Having said that, it's a private statue on private land, and, so as far as I'm concerned it's a free speech issue -- game, set and match for the owner of the statue. Plus, the local community doesn't seem too concerned about it, and these decisions when necessary should largely be made at the local level.

However, the liberal mayor of Seattle has recently found a conscience and has become empathetic to the Russian immigrants in his city and has called for the removal of the statue.

I agree with you on the private land part of this, but I think it would be a nice gesture if the city bought the statue and moved it to a museum. To me the issue is, Whom do we honor? Maybe the intention here is not to honor Lenin, but it's ambiguous. With Lee and his fellow Confederate heroes, there's no question they are being honored in a big way, with hundreds of monuments, many built during Jim Crow; and quite a few in states that were not even part of the Confederacy.

[LA Ute]

Interesting Associated Press piece that appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune this morning.

Civil War lessons often depend on where the classroom is

http://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2017/08/22/civil-war-lessons-often-depend-on-where-the-classroom-is/

This is the plaque at the Texas state capitol that is mentioned in the article:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170822/f6bdd1083a33746cd0c6a6fa625e1ae2.jpg

For those who are having a hard time reading the words in the photo, it was dedicated in 1959 by the Texas Chapter of the Children of the Confederacy and reads, in part: “We, therefore, pledge ourselves to preserve pure ideals to study and teach the truths of history (one of the most important of which is that the war between the states was not a rebellion, nor was its underlying cause to sustain slavery).”

[LA Ute]

Now things are getting ridiculous.

Traveler, USC's mascot, comes under scrutiny for having a name similar to Robert E. Lee's horse (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-usc-traveler-20170818-story.html)

BY the way, isn't the dog Tirebiter their official mascot?

[mUUser]

Now things are getting ridiculous.

Traveler, USC's mascot, comes under scrutiny for having a name similar to Robert E. Lee's horse (http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-usc-traveler-20170818-story.html)

BY the way, isn't the dog Tirebiter their official mascot?


Come on LAUte, you need to bring your A-game. Here's one for you.....

Asian ESPN announcer reassigned from the UVA/College of W&M football game because his name is....wait for it.....Robert Lee. There's just no possible way this is true since only conservative outlets are reporting. I'm 99 percent sure the last laugh will be on me, but, here it is........

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/msespn-pulls-asian-announcer-named-robert-lee-off-uva-game-avoid-offending-idiots/

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/08/22/espn-pulls-asian-american-announcer-from-virginia-football-game-because-has-confederate-generals-name.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/22/espn-pulls-announcer-robert-lee-university-virgini/

http://www.richmond.com/sports/college/football/report-espn-switches-announcer-named-robert-lee-off-of-u/article_eacaf73c-87a0-11e7-ba0a-0780f035df3d.html

[LA Ute]

Come on LAUte, you need to bring your A-game. Here's one for you.....

Asian ESPN announcer reassigned from the UVA/College of W&M football game because his name is....wait for it.....Robert Lee. There's just no possible way this is true since only conservative outlets are reporting. I'm 99 percent sure the last laugh will be on me, but, here it is........

https://www.outkickthecoverage.com/msespn-pulls-asian-announcer-named-robert-lee-off-uva-game-avoid-offending-idiots/

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/08/22/espn-pulls-asian-american-announcer-from-virginia-football-game-because-has-confederate-generals-name.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/aug/22/espn-pulls-announcer-robert-lee-university-virgini/

http://www.richmond.com/sports/college/football/report-espn-switches-announcer-named-robert-lee-off-of-u/article_eacaf73c-87a0-11e7-ba0a-0780f035df3d.html

I heard he is Asian. We are into absurdity now.

[LA Ute]

Mothball the Confederate Monuments

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450470/charlottesville-virignia-robert-e-lee-statue-remove-right-decision-confederate-monuments-museums

[LA Ute]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/907df916f3080d231bd1c8edd79d8ea3.jpg

[mUUser]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170823/907df916f3080d231bd1c8edd79d8ea3.jpg


There's no words for this -- at least no words that would make any sense of it. I guess this is the America we're becoming. Beyond bizarre.

[Rocker Ute]

ESPN is making a name for itself with stupid political statements... however do we know the announcer Robert Lee himself didn't ask to be reassigned from that game in Virginia knowing that nutcases abound and the tyranny of the internet masses might find cause to mess with his life? I gotta say if I were in his shoes it might be a concern for me. ESPN made it sound on their release that all parties agreed including him. Who knows.

However if that was the thinking I am okay with it. When the car driver in Charlottesville was misidentified as someone else at first, that person had to go into hiding as internet fools began harassing him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

ESPN is making a name for itself with stupid political statements... however do we know the announcer Robert Lee himself didn't ask to be reassigned from that game in Virginia knowing that nutcases abound and the tyranny of the internet masses might find cause to mess with his life? I gotta say if I were in his shoes it might be a concern for me. ESPN made it sound on their release that all parties agreed including him. Who knows.

However if that was the thinking I am okay with it. When the car driver in Charlottesville was misidentified as someone else at first, that person had to go into hiding as internet fools began harassing him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This one doesn't bother me that much, although it's sad. What I wonder is why ESPN had to say anything about the change? Couldn't this have been done quietly?

[UTEopia]

This one doesn't bother me that much, although it's sad. What I wonder is why ESPN had to say anything about the change? Couldn't this have been done quietly?

It reminds me of when Bronco would announce he is not a candidate for certain jobs. Dude, nobody thought you were.

[sancho]

This guy just got out of watching UVa vs William & Mary. One of the better days of his broadcasting career.

[DrumNFeather]

This guy just got out of watching UVa vs William & Mary. One of the better days of his broadcasting career.

"Did you know that Bronco lived in an RV when he first got here?.....ok, I'm out of interesting facts about the guy."

[Ma'ake]

This article came out after the Charleston church shooting: https://medium.com/marc-ambinder/the-surprisingly-uncomplicated-racist-history-of-the-confederate-flag-773357dbc702

Notables:

- the States Rights Party in Virginia in 1948 adopted the Confederate Flag (CF) after the Democratic Party's platform became more progressive on civil rights, right around when Harry Truman integrated the military.

- Georgia adopted their own design of the CF to protest Brown vs Board of Education, in 1956

- South Carolina flew the CF over the State Capitol in 1962, after George Wallace raised it on grounds of the legislature in Alabama, protesting efforts to more aggressively integrate schools in the South.

Yep, the Confederacy was all about commerce and States Rights.

[LA Ute]

This article came out after the Charleston church shooting: https://medium.com/marc-ambinder/the-surprisingly-uncomplicated-racist-history-of-the-confederate-flag-773357dbc702

Notables:

- the States Rights Party in Virginia in 1948 adopted the Confederate Flag (CF) after the Democratic Party's platform became more progressive on civil rights, right around when Harry Truman integrated the military.

- Georgia adopted their own design of the CF to protest Brown vs Board of Education, in 1956

- South Carolina flew the CF over the State Capitol in 1962, after George Wallace raised it on grounds of the legislature in Alabama, protesting efforts to more aggressively integrate schools in the South.

Yep, the Confederacy was all about commerce and States Rights.

Oh come now. It was just a coincidence that they were all slave states. Correlation is not causation, you know. ;)

[Mormon Red Death]

Some interesting videos:


https://www.prageru.com/courses/history/was-civil-war-about-slavery


https://www.prageru.com/courses/history/why-did-democratic-south-become-republican

[mUUser]

Some interesting videos:


https://www.prageru.com/courses/history/was-civil-war-about-slavery


https://www.prageru.com/courses/history/why-did-democratic-south-become-republican


Yes, interesting. I'd never heard of PragerU but is clearly right leaning. Did you happen to watch any of the other offerings?: College Made Me a Conservative, Taxes Are Killing Small Businesses, Government Can't Fix Healthcare, Black Millennial Female & Conservative, Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings, The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party......and many others. Quite entertaining.

[Mormon Red Death]

Yes, interesting. I'd never heard of PragerU but is clearly right leaning. Did you happen to watch any of the other offerings?: College Made Me a Conservative, Taxes Are Killing Small Businesses, Government Can't Fix Healthcare, Black Millennial Female & Conservative, Facts Don't Care About Your Feelings, The Inconvenient Truth About the Democratic Party......and many others. Quite entertaining.
I've seen a lot of them. Prager himself seems very wise inn my opinion

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[LA Ute]

For the last time, the American Civil War was not about states’ rights (https://qz.com/378533/for-the-last-time-the-american-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/)

[sancho]

For the last time, the American Civil War was not about states’ rights (https://qz.com/378533/for-the-last-time-the-american-civil-war-was-not-about-states-rights/)



https://vimeo.com/183519944

[LA Ute]

Here's a contrary view. I disagree with his suggestion as to what conservatives should do.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/450551/confederate-statues-republicans-democrats-should-let-them-be

[LA Ute]

Interesting view from a New Yorker writer:

Things to Think About When Taking Down Statues

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/things-to-think-about-when-taking-down-statues

[LA Ute]

I think this writer deals perfectly with the issue of honoring confederate heroes.

Seeing the Confederacy Clear

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/451399/seeing-confederacy-clear-terrible-issue-monuments-and-all


I am further told that, in removing monuments, people are “erasing history” or “eradicating history.” Sometimes they are, I think, and that is to be opposed. But sometimes they are doing something else. Remember: Some monuments, or memorials, are meant to record history; others are meant to honor the person being depicted.

Exactly.

[LA Ute]

Interesting piece:

5 Causes of the Civil War (Besides Slavery)

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/5-causes-civil-war-besides-slavery

[concerned]

On that note, here is an Eric Foner op-ed yesterday on lee specifically and the causes of the civil war generally. Makes the point that the historical interpretations of "other causes" of the war in part were designed to enoble the southern cause and whitewash the defense of slavery. FWIW.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/books/review/eric-foner-robert-e-lee.html?mcubz=1&_r=0

[LA Ute]

On that note, here is an Eric Foner op-ed yesterday on lee specifically and the causes of the civil war generally. Makes the point that the historical interpretations of "other causes" of the war in part were designed to enoble the southern cause and whitewash the defense of slavery. FWIW.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/books/review/eric-foner-robert-e-lee.html?mcubz=1&_r=0

Whatever anyone says, slavery was the sine qua non of the Civil War. No fair-minded and well-informed person can deny that.

[LA Ute]

Interesting piece. It does seem that historians are rethinking Grant's stature as a POTUS.

Rethinking President Grant (Part One)
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/rethinking-president-ulysses-grant-stature-rising/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/rethinking-president-ulysses-grant-stature-rising/)

[concerned]

Interesting piece. It does seem that historians are rethinking Grant's stature as a POTUS.

Rethinking President Grant (Part One)
https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/rethinking-president-ulysses-grant-stature-rising/ (https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/rethinking-president-ulysses-grant-stature-rising/)

Chernow's biography is one of the best books I have read on a long time. Doesn't whitewash Grant's obliviousness to the scandals around him, but really emphasizes how Grant stuck with reconstruction as long as he could, when many Repubs were ready to give up, and how much responsibility Grant felt for the future of the freed Blacks.

[LA Ute]

Chernow's biography is one of the best books I have read on a long time. Doesn't whitewash Grant's obliviousness to the scandals around him, but really emphasizes how Grant stuck with reconstruction as long as he could, when many Repubs were ready to give up, and how much responsibility Grant felt for the future of the freed Blacks.

The musical can’t be far behind.

[LA Ute]

Sigh. Too many people hanging on to the notion of honoring the Confederacy.

Mayor announces ‘Confederate Memorial Day.’ A city council member says it should cost him his job.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/04/06/mayor-announces-confederate-memorial-day-city-councilor-says-it-should-cost-him-his-job/?utm_term=.e28f3a703278&wpisrc=nl_most&wpmm=1