The Thread about Good Things in Scouting

[LA Ute]

This is a thread for people interested in Scouting. I really think discussions about what's wrong with Scouting, including gay-related issues, while important (I care about the latter a lot and want to find a solution) belong elsewhere.

Meanwhile, this is simply an interesting blog post. I think lots of the changes are positive or just based on common sense, but it's fascinating to see how the program has evolved.

The Boy Scouts of America: Then and Now — A Comparison of the 1911 and Modern Handbooks and Merit Badges (http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/04/15/the-boy-scouts-of-america-then-and-now-a-comparison-of-the-1911-and-modern-handbooks-and-merit-badges/)

[mUUser]

Good things about scouting? Is this some kind of sick joke, pal?

.....seriously, I can't come up with a single thing. Sorry.

[mpfunk]

This should be a really short thread.

There is nothing good about scouting.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[LA Ute]

This thread will grow over time. In addition to being helpful, friendly, courteous and kind, I'm patient.

For one thing, I have loved watching boys who've grown up in the barrio see what the night sky looks like in the Sierra, or perhaps ride a horse, for the first time. Or earn a Citizenship in the Nation merit badge and understand finally what federalism is. And so on. You communists!

[Newbomb Turk]

When I was a kid I loved scouting. My favorite times were going to scout camp at Camp Billy Rice at Warm Lake, Idaho or Camp Tapawingo at Payette Lakes. We did a lot of weekend campouts too. Those were some of my favorite times. I got my Life badge and then moved to Utah. Unfortunately the local troop really didn't do much and I quickly lost interest.

I looked at the link that LA posted. It was interesting. One of the merit badges that I got was Pioneering. That one was a blast.

Given the parameters of this thread, I will refrain from commenting on the direction that scouting has taken lately.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

Turk hit the nail on the head. One's experience with scouting has MUCH to do with the quality of the troop. I was fortunate to have grown up in the ideal situation for a really terrific scouting experience.

Ours was an LDS troop in Holladay. Our ward had 20+ 12 to 14 year olds at a time, with an excellent scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster, committee chair, advancement chair, and quality merit badge counselors. We were well organized, well funded, and had the support of involved parents.

Just after I turned 12, our scoutmaster and assistant inherited a pathetic, dead program and transformed it very quickly. Within a few weeks, kids were showing up on time in full uniform. The fact that they had surprise inspections with full sized candy bars for full uniforms didn't hurt. They made every week meaningful and fun with no hint of military heavy-handedness. We worked on really fun merit badges constantly as a group.

In those years kids were very interested in getting outdoors to camp, hike, swim, build things, take long bicycle trips, etc. We raced with each other to quickly go through the ranks toward our Eagle awards. We worked hard every year on fundraising, and as a result we had brand new matching tents, camp gear, stoves, etc.

Another element was being so close to the spectacular Wasatch and Uintah Moutain ranges. Our overnight camps were a blast, and our week camps were at Camp Steiner and East Fork of the Bear. Every day was wonderful, and we looked forward to camp like we did Christmas.

I remember the first day of camp at Camp Steiner when it was announced we'd have to swim 100 yards to be able to use the rowboats and canoes for the week. The water was 38 degrees. NOBODY dared go in. After a few minutes, the scoutmaster announced: "Let me show you ladies how this is done." He stripped down to his swimsuit, dove in, and killed it. Needless to say, we couldn't be shown up by the old man, so all of us quickly followed. I have never been colder in my life before that or since.

Every year one of the favorite overnights involved the short hike above Alta to Cecret Lake, with backpacking the next morning along the ridge to the top of the Snowbird tram. We'd then ride it down to the plaza. My first overnight was Winter Camp at Tracy Wigwam. That night included a no-holds-barred snowball fight with a neighboring troop. We prevailed. We also hiked to the top of Mount Olympus every July.

We won numerous first place awards at our week camps, district camporees, and Scout-O-Ramas. We actually had 3 types of uniforms from full dress to matching t-shirts with jeans. There are lots of skills I retain to this day and use often as a direct result of scouting.

Three of my best friends and I were awarded our Eagles on the same night. We were barely 14. We were able to enjoy the benefits of being Eagles while we were still having fun as young scouts. We were afforded some nice privileges as Eagles. Those were some of the best times of our young lives.

I feel bad for kids that grow up in crappy programs. They really miss out. The kids that are forced to earn Eagle in order to get a driver's license, or get a car never have the love for it that we did. I've seen some kids shamed into it by an overzealous mom or dad, barely getting the application for Eagle in before their 18th birthday. It seems to have little meaning to them.

As an adult, I've served in several capacities involved in scouting. I've tried hard to provide the same experience I was lucky enough to have as a kid. I've seen lots of young men really benefit from the program over the years. The most rewarding thing is to have someone thank me for it 10, 15, even 20 years later.

Like any worthwhile endeavor, it is what you make it.

480481

[LA Ute]

Well said, SDU.

[Sullyute]

Although my experiences may not have been as great as SDU but I really enjoyed scoutting as a youth. Scout camps were fun, we went to camp Lowell just outside yellowstone. We mountain biked slickrock and gemini bridges, and other trails at Moab on several occassions. The klondikes were a blast (because my dad made sure I was prepared). I never earned my eagle but definitely had a good time as a youth while scouting.

[LA Ute]

It all depends on the quality of the adult leadership. It is sad how many young men have a terrible experience because of poor leadership. LDS Scouting has many warts, and this (uneven adult leadership) is the biggest one, IMO.

[LA Ute]

I am firmly convinced that if Scouting is done right, it allows young man to learn how to do big things one step at a time. That is a very important and useful life skill.

[Dawminator]

IMO, young men (who are LDS) can get the same thing without Scouting. I make it no secret that I think scouting is ALMOST a complete waste of time. I enjoyed the campouts. I enjoyed some of the other activities. Nothing else about scouting ever spoke to me. I think scouting is so outdated as to make it practically irrelevant for a lot of today's youth. It was a program developed for young boys in 1915 and at some point in the last 15-20 years that model got old and tired. There are some who it still works for, but I am finding that there are more and more people like me (faithful LDS) who got absolutely nothing out of it.

Don't even get me started on the adult leaders. I have never been to any of their training sessions. But I have heard stories of Woodbadge. If those I know have experiences like others, it sounds like scouting has become a pseudo religion for some. Giving out ashes from the first campfire with that Powell dude. It just sounds like mysticism. I couldn't do it. If I was ever called into scouting I wouldn't say no, but I would make sure my bishop knew who he was calling and how much I despise certain aspects of scouting. If I went to woodbadge...I would almost certainly get kicked out or asked why I had a bad attitude.

Didn't get my eagle. Don't have any regrets. Hate, hate, hate scouting. Did I mention that I hate scouting?

[Dawminator]

For the record, I had really well trained adult leaders in scouting. My problem is with the organization. Not with local leadership.

[Sullyute]

If I was ever called into scouting I wouldn't say no, but I would make sure my bishop knew who he was calling and how much I despise certain aspects of scouting.

I don't want to ruin LA Ute'ss thread with tangents but if you despise the calling so much why not just say no. This seems like the root of some of the lds scouting troops, leaders who just don't want to be there.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

I don't want to ruin LA Ute'ss thread with tangents but if you despise the calling so much why not just say no. This seems like the root of some of the lds scouting troops, leaders who just don't want to be there.

Bingo!

[Scratch]

I loved my scouting experiences, but agree with what was said here, a lot of it had to do with the fact that my troop had a lot of my friends in it, and my scout leader for years was absolutely phenomenal. He was a great scientist who loved and understood the outdoors, and was also a great story teller. Most of the boys got their Eagles, but we were never pushed towards it and never really did any of the merit badge mill scout camps. We did things like backpacking across the Uintas and camping all over Southern Utah, and the merit badges and promotions just kind of followed.

[Dawminator]

I don't want to ruin LA Ute'ss thread with tangents but if you despise the calling so much why not just say no. This seems like the root of some of the lds scouting troops, leaders who just don't want to be there.

Fair question Sully. I don't think I would be a bad Young Men's leader. I think I would try to explain my position on scouting, the approach I would personally like to take in the role (more focus on service, camping, fellowshiping, etc. and less on wacky merit badges), and then if he tells me no, that is not how the Lord wants it done in our ward AND he still wants you to serve. Then I will comply and be the best darned scouter I could be.

[UTEopia]

I had good experiences in scouting although I found the the merit badges and rank advancements to be of little value. In my adult experiences since then, the requirements seem to have even less value. The Eagle projects approved in our area are a joke. Unfortunately, my experience was not the same as another member of my troop, who was the same age as me. He died of AIDS over 10 years ago and in a documentary about his wife and her care for him after she tested positive for HIV, he said that he was sexually abused on a scout trip as a young boy. Realizing that it would have been my troop and that I was likely on the trip where this occurred has prompted some internal questions. Scouting may have played a positive role in many lives, but IMO it may be an institution that has outlived its usefulness.

[LA Ute]

Everyone has his own story to tell. I enjoyed Scouting as a kid, but don't know that it had a huge impact on me. I did learn to swim and lifesaving, and a lot of camping skills. Morse code too!

About 30 years after my last day as a Scout my bishop called me in and said, calling me by name, "I've got a hell of a problem. I need a Scoutmaster." I was no outdoorsman and thought the idea of my being Scoutmaster was pretty funny. I accepted anyway. It so happened that new leader training was a week later and I went. It turned out I lucked out with my trainers. They were awesome.

Long story short: I had a great time and I loved the boys in my troop - about 14 of them. I'm still on touch with them. For the next 15 years (until the present) I've been involved in the Young Men program. I've learned a lot about what not to do and what to do, and I've gained a real appreciation for what the program can do if the leaders remember it is about the boys.

The moment I will always remember is the phone call I made to a lifelong friend who was a Scout with me when we were kids. I had just accepted the calling and called him to joke about how unlikely it was.

Me: "Guess what my new church calling is?"

Friend: "What?"

Me: "Scoutmaster! Can you believe it?"

Friend: "Sure, you'll be great. Just be sure not to be like [name of our Scoutmaster when we were kids.]"

I was taken aback that 30 years later he still remembered that our SM as kids was a dud. I realized that the boys in my troop would always remember me as their Scoutmaster. It was pretty sobering.

So I tried really hard and loved it. I remain convinced it's a great program, but only as good as the amount of heart the leaders put into it. When I try to train others as Scouters, I always say there are three fool-proof rules for success:

1. Love the boys.

2. Follow the boy-led program.

3. Remember the first two rules!

That's how it seems to me.

[Rocker Ute]

My scouting experience as a youth was definitely lacking, overall a miserable experience. My parents had a requirement that you had to get your Eagle to get your drivers license. So I blasted through as fast as I could and got it at 14.

In an experience that I can only call inspiration from my mother, I got a 'job' working at Cub Country up Millcreek Canyon. My mom dropped me off the first day, met the camp director and pulled me aside immediately. She told me that she felt like there wasn't something right with the guy and that I was never to be alone with him and to leave immediately if that situation ever came up. I listened to my mom and made sure I wasn't, and she eventually made me quit after about two weeks.

I never saw anything inappropriate, but the guy was a definite weirdo. A year or two later he was arrested for having molested a number of scouts. Thank goodness for my mom.

Shortly after getting married I got called to be a Scoutmaster. I lived in a ward with some über scouters who had made it a career. A lot of funny stories about them I could tell. For the husband scouting was a replacement for his military service.

My goal was that the kids wouldn't have an experience like I did. No merit badge mills, fun activities, focusing on the good principles taught and mixing some of the more rote parts of scouting in with the good (like memorizing oaths, etc).

The other goal was that every eligible kid in the area, Mormon or not felt welcome, so I went out and got them all involved and reduced most barriers to entry like being hardcore on requiring uniforms.

I also felt strongly that it was about teaching kids practical outdoor skills and civic responsibilities. So I would rather teach them how to camp with no impact or fires than clanking around Dutch ovens.

So we had a lot of fun, I loved the kids and I think they thought I was alright too (they still give me a call every now and them despite being grown). We had every kid in the neighborhood involved and coming, taking the troop from about 4 regulars to 20.

But what made it miserable were the über scouters. The harassed me endlessly. One time he showed up to a troop meeting, some of the kids didn't have uniforms and he came unglued and was yelling at the kids. I took him outside and I can't remember all I said to him other than shouting at him, "WHO GIVES A DAMN ABOUT UNIFORMS? THEY ARE ALL HERE!!"

Another source of contention with them is I wouldn't require my scouts to do the scout-o-Rama fundraisers, or pump money into those weekend merit badge mills. That really pissed them off.

It was endless stuff like that with them, I got to the point where I was getting weekly complaints from them. So did the bishop. The funny thing is I wasn't breaking any of the rules other than the uniform requirement, but I wasn't toeing the line.

So after about two years of misery I resigned, but waited until the core group of guys had their eagles. I bribed the rest with a dinner with their best friend and me at any restaurant of their choosing. I took one kid to La Caille where he found out he didn't like rich people food (but really it was because La Caille wasn't that good of a restaurant). Most kids at that age biggest dream was Sizzler.

They got their hand picked guy, and the troop dwindled back to 4 or 5 kids, but thank heavens they wore their uniforms and did their pointless fundraisers and got masses of merit badges they didn't understand!

I've come to realize the Scouting program is filled with guys like that. Not to mention grossly overpaid administrators that are a glut on the program.

I think the principles behind scouting have potential to be great, but as general practiced (as evidenced in many of the above posts) it has problems.

[LA Ute]

Rocker, I know what you mean. For a few years I ended up being a member of our local council's board. It was kind of an assignment from our stake president. Anyway, those are the uber scouters of uber scouters. I really couldn't stand it. After a few years I slipped away. I hate it when people see scouting as a paramilitary organization.

[Rocker Ute]

Rocker, I know what you mean. For a few years I ended up being a member of our local council's board. It was kind of an assignment from our stake president. Anyway, those are the uber scouters of uber scouters. I really couldn't stand it. After a few years I slipped away. I hate it when people see scouting as a paramilitary organization.

Yup, they all seem to gravitate there don't they? I was overly negative, but I really did love working with the kids and we had a blast in that respect. I think we proved scouting didn't have to be awful but could be really cool, but those guys tamped that notion down pretty quick.

One thing I really encouraged them to do was to get their Eagles by 14 because I told them the last thing they wanted to be doing before their 18th birthday was an eagle project. I told them the adventure part of scouting really could happen after they had their eagles and were 16. However, I think the Venture and Explorer aspects of Scouting largely get ignored by troops backed by the church, which is too bad... That is the coolest stuff.

[Solon]

Today, I generally characterize myself as pro-camping, anti-scouting

But one of my favorite possessions is a Boy Scout Handbook from 1913.

Besides acting as a treasure-trove of information about America's progressive movement, it's got quite a bit of interesting information about animal identification, story-telling technique, health & wellness, US history and freedom, etc., not to mention proper marshmallow-roasting technique ("Oh, the deliciousness of it! Ever tasted one?")

But my favorite section is the merit-badge section.

Here are some of the merit-badges (and some of the more entertaining requirements) available for boys in 1913:

Automobiling (includes requirements to know how to safely start an engine, and how to put out burning gasoline)
Blacksmithing
Dairying
First Aid to Animals (must be able to treat a horse for colic)
Invention (requirement: invent something and patent it)
Mining (know and name fifty minerals; describe practices for proper mine ventilation)
Pathfinding
Poultry Farming
Stalking
Taxidermy

I wonder how many young men today would like the opportunity to work on their Stalking Merit Badge.

[LA Ute]

Hey, guys, if you want to start a separate "I really dislike Scouting" thread, please feel free.

[Solon]

Hey, guys, if you want to start a separate "I really dislike Scouting" thread, please feel free.

?????
Are you referring to my post?
I thought both friends and foes of scouting would get a kick out of that.

Let me know when you want to work on identifying the tracks of the meadow mouse and I'll send you those pages.

[utebehindenemylines]

I don't think I would be a bad Young Men's leader. I think I would try to explain my position on scouting, the approach I would personally like to take in the role (more focus on service, camping, fellowshiping, etc. and less on wacky merit badges), and then if he tells me no, that is not how the Lord wants it done in our ward AND he still wants you to serve. Then I will comply and be the best darned scouter I could be.

This explains my current situation. I am "assistant" to the deacon's quorom advisor. I teach the youth once a week but apparently part of my calling is to help out with the scouts. I hate the scouting program.

For me, it wasn't necessarily just bad leaders (my ward embraced the military style leadership where fun was not to be had). I've never been an outdoorsy kid, I love sports but despise camping, and hiking, hunting, fishing etc aren't really in my interests. I haven't outright explained my feelings on scouting to the bishop (although maybe I should). When he interviewed me for the calling, I mentioned to him that since I have a toddler and a wife who works nights and weekends, I likely won't be able to help out much with scouts.

We have scouts on Wed nights, when I think I can manage the activity with my toddler, I'll go, Otherwise I bow out. This past weekend they asked if I'd be able to attend an overnighter since one of the leaders was unable to attend. I skirted the issue a bit and they ended up finding someone else to go, but I sensed a little animousity from the scout leader when I told him I wasn't able to attend.

I'm with Dawminator, I feel that scouts is dated and seems out of touch with the youth of today. I don't feel that it is an inspired program and I can have no testimony of scouting and not have it affect my testimony of the church.


EDIT. I replied before getting to the very bottom of the thread. Please see fit to delete/move my post if it offends. I don't mean to put a damper on those who just want to discuss the good of scouts. My apologies.

[LA Ute]

?????
Are you referring to my post?

Nope!


I thought both friends and foes of scouting would get a kick out of that.

I did. I was griping about posts from people who want to share their favorite gripe about Scouting as they experienced it. Hey, I didn't like a lot of it either when I was a kid!


Let me know when you want to work on identifying the tracks of the meadow mouse and I'll send you those pages.

A great example of what's right with Scouting. When I was Scoutmaster every year at summer camp we set up a tracking pit near our camp site. The boys always loved it. There's nothing like the look in the eyes of a 12 year-old boy who's never seen a raccoon or heard an owl, but who's just seen animal tracks 10 feet from his tent in the morning while a woodpecker hammers away just above his head. That's what I'm talking about!

[Solon]

Nope!



I did. I was griping about posts from people who want to share their favorite gripe about Scouting as they experienced it. Hey, I didn't like a lot of it either when I was a kid!



A great example of what's right with Scouting. When I was Scoutmaster every year at summer camp we set up a tracking pit near our camp site. The boys always loved it. There's nothing like the look in the eyes of a 12 year-old boy who's never seen a raccoon or heard an owl, but who's just seen animal tracks 10 feet from his tent in the morning while a woodpecker hammers away just above his head. That's what I'm talking about!

Whew!

I think we who grew up in Utah or out west sometimes take the outdoorsy stuff for granted.
When I was a graduate student studying in Greece, I was surprised at all of the East-Coast Mamby-Pambies in my class who had never been hiking, never slept outside, never carried their own water over long distances, never climbed a mountain or washed their clothes in a river (we spent a decent amount of time on archaeological sites with few facilities; it was pretty much camping with extra dirt).

The outdoorsy part of scouting is a great part of being a kid out west, but it's not quite the same to hike the Appalachian Trail in Pennsylvania and to cross major highways or to skirt fenced cabins as you go along.

[Joe Public]

I had a blast in scouting. A friend of mine at school had joined, and he invited me to go with him one week. That was the start of a few years of really good times with camping, etc. It wasn't an LDS troop; it was a community troop with adult leaders who had sons in the program and really wanted to volunteer. They were good examples to me in many ways.

[LA Ute]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OFJcKUZQLc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUu_2MGOmb09ztJbBPA6cKDw

[jrj84105]

My best experience in scouting was when I was 12 and ditched scouts/YM for the first time (I was NOT a rebellious kid at all). We all piled in the car of the one non-Mormon kid in the troop. He was the nicest kid in the troop and had Jesus hair. He put a tape in the cassette deck and I heard Nirvana for the first time. I looked forward to skipping scouts from then on. I thankfully missed what followed. The topic of scouting came up with my dad about 20 years later, and he broke down in tears over the guilt that he, as a long time member of the bishopric, felt for how few boys in my youth cohort stayed with the church. I knew the guy who was scout master was a jerk, but I didn't know the magnitude of how bad it was until that discussion.

[LA Ute]

My best experience in scouting was when I was 12 and ditched scouts/YM for the first time (I was NOT a rebellious kid at all). We all piled in the car of the one non-Mormon kid in the troop. He was the nicest kid in the troop and had Jesus hair. He put a tape in the cassette deck and I heard Nirvana for the first time. I looked forward to skipping scouts from then on. I thankfully missed what followed. The topic of scouting came up with my dad about 20 years later, and he broke down in tears over the guilt that he, as a long time member of the bishopric, felt for how few boys in my youth cohort stayed with the church. I knew the guy who was scout master was a jerk, but I didn't know the magnitude of how bad it was until that discussion.

Why don't you start a "What I don't like about Scouting" thread?

[mUUser]

It's better than indexing for a mutual activity, but just barely. Seriously, what is wrong with our mutual program. An indexing party for teenagers? Ugh........

[sancho]

My cub scouts each need to report on 2 great Americans. I will need to give them 18 short bios of great Americans. Who should I choose? The boys are 9. So far, I am planning to use:

Music: Bob Dylan, Louis Armstrong (maybe Slash from G'n'R?)

Athletics: Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps (maybe I should just give out famous Utes? Troll some of the parents.)

Writing: Hemmingway, Dr Seuss

Art: Not sure who would be exciting for 9 years olds to learn about. Jackson Pollock?

Politics: Abe Lincoln, Harriet Tubman, Ben Franklin, Martin Luther King Jr, Susan B. Anthony

Other: Thomas Edison

What are your suggestions?

[Utebiquitous]

Sancho,
In sports I like Jess Owens and Jackie Robinson. I think Malcolm X and Theodore Roosevelt are compelling in politics. In your inventor/technology category with Thomas Edison you might consider Bill Gates.

[sancho]

Sancho,
In sports I like Jess Owens and Jackie Robinson. I think Malcolm X and Theodore Roosevelt are compelling in politics. In your inventor/technology category with Thomas Edison you might consider Bill Gates.

Thanks. Great suggestions. I actually put Robinson on the list right after posting. Mark Twain is now in, too.

[Diehard Ute]

Athlete I'd include Muhammad Ali




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[LA Ute]

Politician: Frederick Douglass, Thomas Jefferson

Athlete: Jack Kemp? Kinda straddles two worlds.

[Diehard Ute]

Rosa Parks is also someone I would include.




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[sancho]

Rosa Parks is also someone I would include.


I thought of her too, but this is February, so the boys have already studied her in school this month (same for MLK).

[sancho]

Athlete I'd include Muhammad Ali


Of course! Thanks

[DrumNFeather]

Brad Meltzer has a series of Children's Books on Ordinary People that Changed the world. Might be a little too young for your crew, but my 8 year old loves them and recently asked us for the Rosa Parks one.

https://www.amazon.com/Ordinary-People-Change-World-Gift/dp/0803741367/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1488468255&sr=8-4&keywords=brad+meltzer+children%27s+books

[Applejack]

My cub scouts each need to report on 2 great Americans. I will need to give them 18 short bios of great Americans. Who should I choose? The boys are 9. So far, I am planning to use:

Music: Bob Dylan, Louis Armstrong (maybe Slash from G'n'R?)

Athletics: Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps (maybe I should just give out famous Utes? Troll some of the parents.)

Writing: Hemmingway, Dr Seuss

Art: Not sure who would be exciting for 9 years olds to learn about. Jackson Pollock?

Politics: Abe Lincoln, Harriet Tubman, Ben Franklin, Martin Luther King Jr, Susan B. Anthony

Other: Thomas Edison

What are your suggestions?


Slash for sure.
Athlete: Phil Dixon
Other: Fat Rick M

[sancho]

Slash for sure.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr0QXjrUxGk

[NorthwestUteFan]

(maybe Slash from G'n'R?)



Slash is British. Good list otherwise.

[sancho]

slash is british. Good list otherwise.

d'oh!

[Diehard Ute]

d'oh!

He only lived in the UK until he was 6. He's been in the US for 45 years and has dual citizenship


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[Applejack]

Slash is British. Good list otherwise.

Shutyourwhoremouth!@

[UtahsMrSports]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44204644&nid=1016&title=lds-church-to-no-longer-participate-in-varsity-venture-scouting

This has been getting some attention but after reading the article I think its much ado about nothing.

[chrisrenrut]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44204644&nid=1016&title=lds-church-to-no-longer-participate-in-varsity-venture-scouting

This has been getting some attention but after reading the article I think its much ado about nothing.

I think this is a good move.

I'm currently a Varsity scout coach. The 5 boys in our group/pack/whatever have no interest in scouting rank or advancement, and their parents do not pressure or support the scouting aspect at all. When I try to schedule activities based on merit badge requirements, no one shows up.

On the other hand, our 12-13 year old troop is awesome. They have a great leader, the boys are engaged, and they really enjoy it. All of my current varsity scouts came from this same troop, but as they get older the scouting fire fades and they develop interest in other things like sports, video games, and girls.

[mUUser]

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=44204644&nid=1016&title=lds-church-to-no-longer-participate-in-varsity-venture-scouting

This has been getting some attention but after reading the article I think its much ado about nothing.

The UPI takes a slightly different angle than KSL in writing about the disassociation......

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/05/11/Mormon-church-to-split-with-Boy-Scouts-amid-culture-clash/5851494515216/

[Rocker Ute]

This was much needed. As chrisrenrut mentioned, it is like pulling teeth to get a 15yo to do scouts. Reviewing the program the LDS Church has in its place seems much more broad and tuned to the needs of youth today.

I for one am glad.


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[LA Ute]

This was much needed. As chrisrenrut mentioned, it is like pulling teeth to get a 15yo to do scouts. Reviewing the program the LDS Church has in its place seems much more broad and tuned to the needs of youth today.

I for one am glad.


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I think you are absolutely right. It was increasingly becoming a bad fit once the boys were age 14. Did the announcement say anything about the boys who do not receive their Eagle by age 14? I am sure there will be a way for those guys to finish, since almost no one does by that age.

[sancho]

I think you are absolutely right. It was increasingly becoming a bad fit once the boys were age 14. Did the announcement say anything about the boys who do not receive their Eagle by age 14? I am sure there will be a way for those guys to finish, since almost no one does by that age.

I think there's something in here about it:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/questions-answers-changes-young-men-program?__prclt=hIpmHoTx

[Rocker Ute]

I think you are absolutely right. It was increasingly becoming a bad fit once the boys were age 14. Did the announcement say anything about the boys who do not receive their Eagle by age 14? I am sure there will be a way for those guys to finish, since almost no one does by that age.

Nothing specific other than if boys wish to continue in the regular scout program after 14 they may.

This is essentially what was happening in our ward anyway. We went on a 'Varsity campout' and the Varsity leader was like, "Hey, let's go uh... get your chainsawing merit badge." He hadn't the slightest clue about the scouting program.

[sancho]

Nothing specific other than if boys wish to continue in the regular scout program after 14 they may.

This is essentially what was happening in our ward anyway. We went on a 'Varsity campout' and the Varsity leader was like, "Hey, let's go uh... get your chainsawing merit badge." He hadn't the slightest clue about the scouting program.

The last 3 wards I've gone to more or less abandoned scouting activities for the 14+ crowd years ago. They have the younger scouts get merit badges at scout camp in the Summer, and the weekly activities are some combination of fun/service/education/spiritual. They still do high adventure outings with the boys in the summer, but there's no real focus on badges or rank.

I think the church is just catching up to what the wards were doing.

[UtahsMrSports]

I have been a teacher's quorum advisor/varsity coach for three years and Ive never donated a penny to friends of scouting (at absolute best that program is inefficient, at worst its an out and out scam) or encouraged anyone in my ward to do so. If the kids show initiative and interest in finishing their eagle, than I have supported and encouraged where I could. Otherwise, Scouting has been placed solidly on the backburner.

I would rather spend the time trying to help these kids get through day to day struggles of being a kid in this generation or try to share something about how to be a good man/husband/father/contributing member of society someday. I just dont think learning knots or sleeping in a lean to that you made by yourself is useful for that. I am hoping that whatever program comes along will capture some of the good things about scouts but also be more practical and useful.

[Scorcho]

I do think you'll see a decline in Eagle scouts for LDS troops because of this, but personally I think being an Eagle Scout was over-valued anyway.

[sancho]

I do think you'll see a decline in Eagle scouts for LDS troops because of this, but personally I think being an Eagle Scout was over-valued anyway.

I'm sure it meant more back in the 50s, but I got my Eagle at age 13. They basically just handed out the merit badges at scout camps. The service project was the only truly meaningful part of the rank. The camping, hiking, backpacking, canoeing, rafting, skiing, and cycling, on the other hand, were amazing experiences.

I don't know that Eagle numbers will go down too far. I think most people complete it before age 14 now anyway.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

I do think you'll see a decline in Eagle scouts for LDS troops because of this, but personally I think being an Eagle Scout was over-valued anyway.

It's nice to know that my resume will age well against these non-Eagle earning losers.

[LA Ute]

They basically just handed out the merit badges at scout camps. The service project was the only truly meaningful part of the rank. The camping, hiking, backpacking, canoeing, rafting, skiing, and cycling, on the other hand, were amazing experiences.

That doesn't really happen in most places. If leaders can find a middle ground between being a requirements Nazi and a total slacker, earning the merit badges can be an important way for boys to learn how to work and progress steadily towards a long-term goal. But Scouting is so variable from troop to troop and leader to leader. There are probably as many horror stories as success stories. And LDS troops have a deserved reputation as the worst.

[Diehard Ute]

That doesn't really happen in most places. If leaders can find a middle ground between being a requirements Nazi and a total slacker, earning the merit badges can be an important way for boys to learn how to work and progress steadily towards a long-term goal. But Scouting is so variable from troop to troop and leader to leader. There are probably as many horror stories as success stories. And LDS troops have a deserved reputation as the worst.

In the news reports of the change today, Fox 13's Ben Winslow has had many people telling him their stories of scouting in Utah.

One of the more common ones, especially in Utah County it seems, was parents requiring a completed Eagle Scout to get a driver license.

Scouting is an interesting world.

I'm currently a collateral advisor for the SLCPD Police Explorer program. We have 70 Explorers. Last year they did approximate 17,000 hours of community service. The Explorer post is technically a part of the Boy Scouts Of America. (Interestingly enough we have more girls than boys in the post and have since it's inception)


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[Rocker Ute]

Here is the 'new' program if you are interested.

https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng

A lot of the stuff was there before the announcement. I am encouraged that it says that there should be more combined YM/YW activities and I hope that it brings some parity in the funding. My current ward has actually always been good to keep the funding pretty equal.

[Scorcho]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C_jLDs0UAAEwVnj.jpg

[chrisrenrut]

This is essentially what was happening in our ward anyway. We went on a 'Varsity campout' and the Varsity leader was like, "Hey, let's go uh... get your chainsawing merit badge." He hadn't the slightest clue about the scouting program.

Hey, that sounds like me!

[chrisrenrut]

. . .these non-Eagle earning losers.

Hey, that sounds like me too!

[UTEopia]

I don't know that Eagle numbers will go down too far. I think most people complete it before age 14 now anyway.

Yes, the mom's work much harder today than in days gone by. My mom was a slacker and as a result, I did not get an Eagle.

[chrisrenrut]

Hey, that sounds like me!

I just noticed that Roundtable is tonight. I was almost tempted to go to see what the mood and conversation is.

[Rocker Ute]

I just noticed that Roundtable is tonight. I was almost tempted to go to see what the mood and conversation is.

Are you on that email list where there are about 500 people all not in bcc? That's my favorite.


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[LA Ute]

The LDS Church is out of Scouting as of the end of 2019. This was not hard to see coming, but I think it’s a little sad nonetheless. I was pretty involved in Scouting in the church, albeit in Southern California where it is quite a bit different from Utah LDS Scouting.

It is the end of an era. Onward and upward.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth#__prclt=6D5STF4x

[Rocker Ute]

The LDS Church is out of Scouting as of the end of 2019. This was not hard to see coming, but I think it’s a little sad nonetheless. I was pretty involved in Scouting in the church, albeit in Southern California where it is quite a bit different from Utah LDS Scouting.

It is the end of an era. Onward and upward.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth#__prclt=6D5STF4x

I'm thinking of all the assets and property that the scout organization in Utah is going to have to eventually liquidate. Kind of staggering. There is now way they'll be able to maintain it. The entire bottom half of Millcreek Canyon may soon be up for sale.

This has to be a serious blow to the organization nationwide too. I can remember exactly what percentage but I believe it was something like 30% of the chartered organizations in BSA are LDS. That'll be tough to recover from.

Maybe finally they'll get that top heavy organization under control.


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[Sullyute]

I just got set apart as scout master this last Sunday. I guess I know know my release date.

[LA Ute]

I'm thinking of all the assets and property that the scout organization in Utah is going to have to eventually liquidate. Kind of staggering. There is now way they'll be able to maintain it. The entire bottom half of Millcreek Canyon may soon be up for sale.

This has to be a serious blow to the organization nationwide too. I can remember exactly what percentage but I believe it was something like 30% of the chartered organizations in BSA are LDS. That'll be tough to recover from.

Maybe finally they'll get that top heavy organization under control.


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We have been huge for the BSA in Friends of Scouting. I was on the board of our council here in L.A. and they loved us for that. They didn't love (or understand) much else about LDS Scouting, an attitude that I fully understand. We have always been a different kind of bird in that organization.

[sancho]

The LDS Church is out of Scouting as of the end of 2019. This was not hard to see coming, but I think it’s a little sad nonetheless. I was pretty involved in Scouting in the church, albeit in Southern California where it is quite a bit different from Utah LDS Scouting.

It is the end of an era. Onward and upward.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/new-program-children-youth#__prclt=6D5STF4x

I too had great experiences with scouts, but other than my Eagle project, they were all things that can and should still exist without the BSA program. It's all about being together and doing great things. The BSA part often got in the way of that.

I hate the timing of this. Why wait a year and a half? Now we have to maintain a charade for a long time. My son just turned 11. He'll be in 11 year old scouts for 18 months, working on tenderfoot, 2nd class, and 1st class rank advancements, with us knowing all the while that we won't pursue it beyond that.

Our scoutmaster is moving two months. I will try to convince the bishop to let the YM go without scouting activities now. We had the following program for a while:

Week 1: Game night
Week 2: Combined with YW
Week 3: Service project (usually helping someone in the ward with something at their house)
Week 4: Skills night (boys pick skills they want to learn about)

Then someone came in and threw a wrench in it all, asking that we do scout night 1-2 times per month. I hope we go back to this when the scoutmaster moves instead of pretending to care for another 18 months. And for the units that do pretend to care for another 18 months, I hope they can put the ranks and badges aside and just do fun/educational/uplifting things. Sully, I hope you are able to do that and not worry about the rest.

I'm glad I will not have to listen to "invest in character" petitions in priesthood meetings anymore. Those always bothered me.

On Saturday, my very conservative, very old neighbor came over to ask if he could buy a subscription to Boys' Life for my son. Then he went on about the BSA allowing girls and the "emasculation" of America. He asked what we Mormons do for our boys and if they ever get to be with just the boys. I wonder if he'll hear about this change.

The media, of course, sees this as a reaction to gay leadership and girls in the BSA, but I think we all know this was happening with or without those changes.

By the way, this page has been up for a long time, and I imagine this is what YM/YW and Activity Days for primary age kids will look like:

https://www.lds.org/youth/ymactivities?lang=eng

[UBlender]

I'm thinking of all the assets and property that the scout organization in Utah is going to have to eventually liquidate. Kind of staggering. There is now way they'll be able to maintain it. The entire bottom half of Millcreek Canyon may soon be up for sale.

This has to be a serious blow to the organization nationwide too. I can remember exactly what percentage but I believe it was something like 30% of the chartered organizations in BSA are LDS. That'll be tough to recover from.

Maybe finally they'll get that top heavy organization under control.


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I would expect the LDS church's youth program that will be replacing scouting to replicate many of the aspects of scouting, including camps. I wonder if the church won't be looking to buy a lot of these properties for their own use?

[sancho]

I would expect the LDS church's youth program that will be replacing scouting to replicate many of the aspects of scouting, including camps. I wonder if the church won't be looking to buy a lot of these properties for their own use?

I loved those cub scout camps as a boy. They were fun. The boy scout camps later on? They were alright, but not as much fun as just doing a 50 miler with your ward.

One of my worst experiences with scouting was at bear lake scout camp. I signed up for the "order of the arrow". This is a bizarre award. The older boys dragged us youngsters all over the camp and made us do hard labor. Cool Hand Luke stuff - dig a hole, then fill it in, then dig another hole. The primary rules were that we had to take whatever they dished out and that we were not allowed to talk at all. If we talked, we got sent back to camp and didn't get our award. In hindsight, it was a hazing ritual.

Speaking of cool hand luke, here's a bluegrass cover of Breathe:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw1bJrFdCjY

[Sullyute]

And for the units that do pretend to care for another 18 months, I hope they can put the ranks and badges aside and just do fun/educational/uplifting things. Sully, I hope you are able to do that and not worry about the rest.

The only person that cares about scouting in our small ward is the Young mens president’s wife. I am sure she will have him rushing to get her sons’ eagles before we quit the program.

[mUUser]

The only person that cares about scouting in our small ward is the Young mens president’s wife. I am sure she will have him rushing to get her sons’ eagles before we quit the program.



Happy my son has been involved in sports and didn't have any interest in scouts. Feel like we dodged a bullet.....a big, boring, useless bullet.

[LA Ute]

As much as I've loved my involvement in Scouting, and as much good as it did my own sons, it doesn't work for every boy. I'm hoping the church's new program will allow for more individualized experience. In 20 years there will still be adults who had a bad experience in the new program, but they'll have to blame their individual leaders instead of the program generally. (Which is what the dissatisfied ought to be doing now about Scouting. But Scouting makes a good punching bag.)

[sancho]

Happy my son has been involved in sports and didn't have any interest in scouts. Feel like we dodged a bullet.....a big, boring, useless bullet.


Parts are boring, and parts are useless, but being with the other boys on Tuesday nights and on outings is 1,000 good.

[Rocker Ute]

My son is an eagle project away from his eagle. We have been encouraging him to do a real eagle project. If you read through the requirements it involved organizing a large and meaningful project that benefits the community and leading the other boys. Good stuff if you do it right, and a sight more than some of the eagle projects I've seen like one who made a quilt (or rather his mom and her friends did while he sat in the room) for the Ronald McDonald house.

I am an Eagle Scout, I worked at Cub Country as a youth and was a scout master. There was a lot of good in these programs and a lot of bad, to the point where I personally felt like the bad was outweighing the good.

Take all the garbage out of scouts and make that the model for the new program for both boys and girls. I'm guessing that is what they'll do.


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[LA Ute]

When I look back on my youth, what left the deepest impressions on me was not necessarily the activities experiences, but the adult leaders who cared about me.

[mUUser]

.....I hate the timing of this. Why wait a year and a half? Now we have to maintain a charade for a long time. My son just turned 11. He'll be in 11 year old scouts for 18 months, working on tenderfoot, 2nd class, and 1st class rank advancements, with us knowing all the while that we won't pursue it beyond that.....


For those that believe in the program, it seems to me it would be easy enough to find a good BSA troop to join.

[sancho]

For those that believe in the program, it seems to me it would be easy enough to find a good BSA troop to join.

Gotta be, right?

I don't care too much about the program, so my hope is that his 11 year old scout group will do something not focused on rank advancement.

[Rocker Ute]

When I look back on my youth, what left the deepest impressions on me was not necessarily the activities experiences, but the adult leaders who cared about me.

This is very true. My personal scouting experience was very much not that, when I was a scout master I tried to make it about that (and met resistance from the uber-scouters in the area for it - more on that below). I think Diehard was the one who pointed out that a big problem that scouts experienced in the church is that many of the leaders were assigned versus non-LDS troops where the leaders there WANT to be there.

As a scout master I decided to jump in and do it the way I thought would work with the youth today. I was actually pretty excited about it and really liked the kids. We spent the first few months going out and getting every kid in the neighborhood to come and participate. I told them not to worry about uniforms and such, to just come and learn. We looked at the programs around merit badges and rank advancements and tried to mix them up so that some of the more boring stuff (Citizenship in the... merit badges) was mixed in with the fun stuff. There were a number of instances that made this experience miserable for me, but we had some of the upper-echelon scouters in our neighborhood. One day they showed up for a troop meeting and were VERY upset that the boys were not in their uniforms. I specifically didn't require it because the boys came straight from school, hated wearing them, and some of the boys didn't have them yet or couldn't afford them. He was yelling at me in front of the boys and then got after the boys for the same thing. I stopped him when he got after the boys and told them I had told them they didn't need their uniforms. He lost his mind.

I remember yelling at him, "Fred! Look, they are all here!!! Every boy in the neighborhood is here and learning!!!" Not good enough for him. Then I had GSL goons contacting me and insisting I go to specialized training etc. After that he or his wife came to almost every scout activity to check on us (we still didn't wear uniforms).

This lead to a campout we had planned. I told them that we were going to pack in, we were going to leave no trace, and we were going to learn how to camp without fire or stoves etc. He was upset because our troop about a year previous to me had bought a bunch of dutch ovens. He was insistent that the boys needed to learn how to do that and to learn about fire safety. Again he was yelling at me and I was yelling back, "What is more fire safe than no fire at all!!!"

The stories could go on for pages, all of them were about like that. I loved those kids (and still run into and keep in contact with many of them today) but the program as seen through an official scouter's eyes was untenable. I was working full-time and going to school full-time and newly married so after two years I asked to be released. Only time I've ever done that. The parents lost their minds because for the first time ever their kids were having fun and moving through the rank advancements.

Now to be fair, I was a young punk in my mid 20s and this guy had been doing scouting for a billion years. I could have probably taken the time to listen to him more, but the stuff he was hung up on I viewed as non-essential and still do. I wanted to work with the boys on being good citizens and people, to learn their civic duty, to learn how to do things outdoors on their own and in scouts and most of all to have a great time. I get that there is some value in learning and respecting a uniform and things like that, but it was soooooo secondary to those other things for me, I was willing to sacrifice it for what I viewed as the greater good.

Fast forward to today, more of the same garbage. A couple of friends and I take our kids and do a 14 mile round trip hike and camp up in the Uintas with only the stuff we've packed in and the fish we caught. We had a storm blow through and while we were planning to sleep under the stars we instead taught them how to build a lean-to to stay dry. They learned how and what to pack on a backpacking trip and how to prepare for unexpected situations. We had them navigate back to the car using a topo map and a compass. The scouts say that doesn't count towards any camping merit badge because it wasn't an official scout activity.

A month later the scoutmaster takes the kids and they sleep in tents in his backyard, spending half the evening watching Avengers in his living room. They go to bed with space heaters (!!!!) in their tents. That somehow counts. Now who had the more authentic scout experience? It is that sort of BS that makes me glad the program is going away for LDS youth, because that sort of experience is all too common.

[sancho]

I think Diehard was the one who pointed out that a big problem that scouts experienced in the church is that many of the leaders were assigned versus non-LDS troops where the leaders there WANT to be there.


Your stories are precisely why the called Mormon leader is sometimes better than the leader who wants to be there. There are a lot of crazy dudes who dedicate their lives to scouting.

I was recently a cub leader for a few years. Had a great time. It was a hard adjustment for a few people that I didn't require the boys to wear their uniforms.

[sancho]

Fast forward to today, more of the same garbage. A couple of friends and I take our kids and do a 14 mile round trip hike and camp up in the Uintas with only the stuff we've packed in and the fish we caught. We had a storm blow through and while we were planning to sleep under the stars we instead taught them how to build a lean-to to stay dry. They learned how and what to pack on a backpacking trip and how to prepare for unexpected situations. We had them navigate back to the car using a topo map and a compass. The scouts say that doesn't count towards any camping merit badge because it wasn't an official scout activity.

A month later the scoutmaster takes the kids and they sleep in tents in his backyard, spending half the evening watching Avengers in his living room. They go to bed with space heaters (!!!!) in their tents. That somehow counts. Now who had the more authentic scout experience? It is that sort of BS that makes me glad the program is going away for LDS youth, because that sort of experience is all too common.

I was a very "spirit of the law" cubmaster. We bent the requirements to suit our needs, and I gave them all their Wolf, Bear, etc at the end of the year if they came most weeks. Some parents didn't like that. I think we all had a good time, though, and we learned some stuff.

[UBlender]

I am a den leader currently. We have a family in our ward who is super into scouts. The dad has his own pinewood derby track and equipment and all this stuff (he was Cubmaster for many years, but still keeps all of this stuff and actively uses it long after being released). It's fine, no judgment for any of that. The third son in this family is in my den. Yesterday the news came out and this afternoon the mom from this family texted me to tell me the kid passed off a bunch of requirements on his own. I'm just chuckling as I picture this family trying to hurry and get each of their boys (ranging from 13 to 7) their Eagle before the end of 2019.

[Rocker Ute]

One more scout rant. I think the biggest bonehead thing I've seen is when the scouts stripped that special needs kid in Utah county of all of his merit badges and rank advancements after he submitted for approval for his Eagle project, because he completed the requirements the best he could, but not the specific way they required it.

It took a lot of social media pressure before they reversed that one. Before that happened, a few of us had talked about packing our Eagles up and mailing them to him and having him flooded with the award.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/boy-scouts/2018/03/19/family-sues-after-boy-scouts-strip-merit-badges-boy-syndrome

[LA Ute]

Over the last 20 years of Scouting in CA I've seen lame LDS leaders and uber-Scouters whose life is Scouting. Neither one is a pretty picture. OTOH, I've seen both LDS Scout leaders and long-time Scouters who've bought into the notion that it's about the boys. Those people are the salt of the earth and they have real impact on boys' lives.