Can LDS truly live the Golden Rule? I'm skeptical

[Ma'ake]

I’ve shared some of my story with many of you before.

Essentially, I’m ex-MO, but I try to see the positives in different religions. I’m kind of an optimistic agnostic, but really, I believe in a higher power. I’m bullish on the big question, but try to be a "live and let live" guy.

My wife is African American, we’ve been married for 25 years and have a daughter and three sons together. We moved back to my hometown, Bountiful, in 2000, to be closer to my parents, get a larger home, and I could be closer to my airplane (which I don’t have anymore, because the boys got to be too expensive with sports, etc.

Even though I left the LDS church as a teenager because of the blacks and the priesthood policy, I knew my wife & kids would be accepted well, because Mormons have done an impressive job of changing direction on that issue. I did not anticipate that my family would become conversion targets.

We raised our kids in my wife’s church, which is black Baptist, and all three sons were baptized on the same day. My middle son’s best friend’s mom started working on him while he was Baptist, telling him he would one day serve an LDS mission and starting the recruitment.

Eventually, the effort paid dividends and he announced as a 16 year old that he wanted to become LDS. I supported his choosing his own path, (I take a broad view on religion) and he’s been serving a mission to Paraguay. I’m pretty certain this lady would not appreciate the same type of recruitment of her kids by people of a different faith, but it’s all justified because she knows the LDS church is the authoritative church on Earth today, where the others are posers. Obviously that’s not how they would word things, but that’s the bottom line truth.

Very soon after we moved in the neighbors started working on us, sizing us up for conversion. When pressed, I told the next door neighbors that if I could attend any church I wanted, it would probably be Unitarian. God bless my neighbor, he says what’s on his mind: "Well, that’s not even a real church". Thanks for your candor, sir.

When my son converted, the Stake President told us (tearfully) that we had no idea how much healing he would do in our community *because* of the color of his skin. After I left the church I really tried to leave all the LDS thinking alone and move forward, but it never occurred to me how much baggage was accumulated in the minds of Mormons on the racial stuff, and how that would play into the "sovereignty" of my family when I moved back to Bountiful.

So, this Thursday my son comes home from Paraguay and he’ll baptize my wife that night. He’s been working on my wife since he left, and, along with all the "encouragement" from the neighbors and "friends" and endless stream of missionaries we’ve had in the house, she finally caved and will let my son baptize her the night he comes home. It was announced yesterday in the ward, and everyone is so excited.

Well, except my wife had not yet told some of our kids, and she definitely hasn’t told most of her family and the pastor who married us. So, I’m left trying to figure out an explanation to give our Pastor, who will view this as a loss, but he’ll probably pin it on me because of my LDS upbringing and the mistake we made in moving back to Bountiful. One of our kids is pretty angry about it, and let her opinion be known, so yesterday evening was pretty rough. (The wife had to come clean about converting, since everyone except the immediate family knows about it.)

Looking back to when we moved in, I really think I should have told the neighbors that we were Muslim. If they thought we might go Jihad on them maybe we would have been respected. This "optimistic agnostic" stuff I’ve been honest about, and how we went to the black Baptist church, even though I’m not black, and we didn’t go every week? In hindsight, it was easy pickins. It took time, but they won.

I think I’m going to have some very frank discussions with some of these people. They’ll probably chaulk it up to persecution from Satan, but I will have been honest, and forthright. "Live and Let Live"? A naive concept.

[GUBA]

My take based on living in Utah for the past nearly 7 years is that very few can "live and let live". I find I am one of the very few in that camp and feel very much like I am an anomaly.

[LA Ute]

Oh, Ma'ake. I'm so sorry. My people, my people....

I've been criticized for posting as if life is a perfect Shangri-La in my Los Angeles LDS wards. It's not at all. Still, the LDS church has some cultural warts that have much more to do with geography than with the church's teachings, in my experience at least. Our ward in L.A. looks like the United Nations, and now that you have me thinking about it, I can count a half-dozen "interracial" marriages (the quotes are there because that's a term we just never use or hear). We have our own problems, but ethnic and cultural insularity is not even on the top 10 list. If you lived in our ward, you'd fit right in and people would understand and be sensitive to your position. Yes, you'd be invited to every ward activity and we'd always make it known to you that we're ready to have you back in the fold, but I like to think we'd live and let live and would honor your wishes. We have a track record with part-member families in that regard. Again, I am not saying L.A. wards are perfect, just that some quirks are just local culture.

I love Utah and being from there, but I do not miss the "us vs. them" dynamic (on both sides), and the frequent cultural obtuseness and insensitivity (on the LDS side). The comments and behavior you describe seem very familiar and authentic to me. I am sure the folks involved are well-meaning, which probably only takes the edge off of how irritating they must be. I think that if you have candid but friendly conversations with those who are driving you nuts, you will do them a service. They'll probably (I am hoping) be pained that they came across as they did and will bring you a casserole or a plate of cookies. I hope they'll change their approach too.

[Diehard Ute]

It's a tough thing. I experienced it growing up I'm the suburbs of Salt Lake.

I had at least two friends whose parents forbade them from associating with me when they found out I wasn't LDS.

I had many others who routinely pressed me about coming to church with them. My parents had no problems with this, but had one rule. If I went to their church one week, they would come to mine the next. Needless to say I never went to theirs as they were not allowed to go to another church as mine wasn't worthy or their parents feared they would change.

I feel for you Ma'ake, I know what part of your situation is like, but yours has even more gas poured on it.

Interesting how something that's supposed to be comforting and healing causes so much pain and suffering.

[LA Ute]

It's a tough thing. I experienced it growing up I'm the suburbs of Salt Lake.

I had at least two friends whose parents forbade them from associating with me when they found out I wasn't LDS.

I had many others who routinely pressed me about coming to church with them. My parents had no problems with this, but had one rule. If I went to their church one week, they would come to mine the next. Needless to say I never went to theirs as they were not allowed to go to another church as mine wasn't worthy or their parents feared they would change.

I feel for you Ma'ake, I know what part of your situation is like, but yours has even more gas poured on it.

Interesting how something that's supposed to be comforting and healing causes so much pain and suffering.

554

[Diehard Ute]

And I should have mentioned, it's all religions that have issues. The church I used to attend (and helped lead, starting at 22 which is quite abnormal in that faith) did so many stupid and crazy things it drove me away.

[LA Ute]

For quite a while I worked in a law firm in which I was the only non-Jew. It was a consciousness-raising experience, and made me think back on my childhood friends growing up in a heavily Mormon area. None of my Jewish colleagues were ever anything but open and welcoming to me (except for a few Jesus jokes at Easter and Christmas) but still, it was interesting to be in a religious minority, to miss all the cultural references and inside jokes, etc., and basically to feel like the Other. I did learn a lot of Yiddish.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

I’ve shared some of my story with many of you before.

Essentially, I’m ex-MO, but I try to see the positives in different religions. I’m kind of an optimistic agnostic, but really, I believe in a higher power. I’m bullish on the big question, but try to be a "live and let live" guy.

My wife is African American, we’ve been married for 25 years and have a daughter and three sons together. We moved back to my hometown, Bountiful, in 2000, to be closer to my parents, get a larger home, and I could be closer to my airplane (which I don’t have anymore, because the boys got to be too expensive with sports, etc.

Even though I left the LDS church as a teenager because of the blacks and the priesthood policy, I knew my wife & kids would be accepted well, because Mormons have done an impressive job of changing direction on that issue. I did not anticipate that my family would become conversion targets.

We raised our kids in my wife’s church, which is black Baptist, and all three sons were baptized on the same day. My middle son’s best friend’s mom started working on him while he was Baptist, telling him he would one day serve an LDS mission and starting the recruitment.

Eventually, the effort paid dividends and he announced as a 16 year old that he wanted to become LDS. I supported his choosing his own path, (I take a broad view on religion) and he’s been serving a mission to Paraguay. I’m pretty certain this lady would not appreciate the same type of recruitment of her kids by people of a different faith, but it’s all justified because she knows the LDS church is the authoritative church on Earth today, where the others are posers. Obviously that’s not how they would word things, but that’s the bottom line truth.

Very soon after we moved in the neighbors started working on us, sizing us up for conversion. When pressed, I told the next door neighbors that if I could attend any church I wanted, it would probably be Unitarian. God bless my neighbor, he says what’s on his mind: "Well, that’s not even a real church". Thanks for your candor, sir.

When my son converted, the Stake President told us (tearfully) that we had no idea how much healing he would do in our community *because* of the color of his skin. After I left the church I really tried to leave all the LDS thinking alone and move forward, but it never occurred to me how much baggage was accumulated in the minds of Mormons on the racial stuff, and how that would play into the "sovereignty" of my family when I moved back to Bountiful.

So, this Thursday my son comes home from Paraguay and he’ll baptize my wife that night. He’s been working on my wife since he left, and, along with all the "encouragement" from the neighbors and "friends" and endless stream of missionaries we’ve had in the house, she finally caved and will let my son baptize her the night he comes home. It was announced yesterday in the ward, and everyone is so excited.

Well, except my wife had not yet told some of our kids, and she definitely hasn’t told most of her family and the pastor who married us. So, I’m left trying to figure out an explanation to give our Pastor, who will view this as a loss, but he’ll probably pin it on me because of my LDS upbringing and the mistake we made in moving back to Bountiful. One of our kids is pretty angry about it, and let her opinion be known, so yesterday evening was pretty rough. (The wife had to come clean about converting, since everyone except the immediate family knows about it.)

Looking back to when we moved in, I really think I should have told the neighbors that we were Muslim. If they thought we might go Jihad on them maybe we would have been respected. This "optimistic agnostic" stuff I’ve been honest about, and how we went to the black Baptist church, even though I’m not black, and we didn’t go every week? In hindsight, it was easy pickins. It took time, but they won.

I think I’m going to have some very frank discussions with some of these people. They’ll probably chaulk it up to persecution from Satan, but I will have been honest, and forthright. "Live and Let Live"? A naive concept.

Tough situation. Sorry to hear about the stress coming to your life. The return of your son after not seeing him for two years, regardless of why he was gone, should be a joyous time. I'm sorry it's not. And due to no fault of your own.

Having been on the other side of the fence, I can tell you that I understand being proselytized. When I was in Oregon for those 4 years, a number of my classmates were evangelical Christians. They were fairly persistent in their attempts to "save" us Mormons.

At first, it really bothered me. Eventually, it only bothered me when it came from the ones that weren't close to me at all. When it came from the few that were actually my good friends, I knew it was because they cared deeply about me. With those few, interestingly, they came to respect that I wasn't going to change. And we remained friends. The others? I just tuned them out.

It was a good experience for me. It changed my perspective. I think a lot of people in predominantly Mormon communities would do well to leave the hive for a while (other than missions) and experience something similar.

Ma'ake, I wish you were one of my neighbors. I wish you the best in the coming months and years. I hope your family dynamic settles back into a new normal that is comfortable and filled with happiness.

Congratulations as your son returns. Love him. He'll be weird for a few months. He'll probably be annoying as hell. Most returned missionaries are for a few months...even to their active Mormon famillies. Cut him some slack and show him love and eventually he'll settle down and mature in his view of diverse religions.

Chin up, brother.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

For quite a while I worked in a law firm in which I was the only non-Jew. It was a consciousness-raising experience, and made me think back on my childhood friends growing up in a heavily Mormon area. None of my Jewish colleagues were ever anything but open and welcoming to me (except for a few Jesus jokes at Easter and Christmas) but still, it was interesting to be in a religious minority, to miss all the cultural references and inside jokes, etc., and basically to feel like the Other. I did learn a lot of Yiddish.

I think a big difference here is that Jews don't tend to try to convert people. They really are live and let live. Mormons, evangelical Christians and Jehova's Witnesses are an entirely different story. Very active in "mission work" and very often times, very annoying to live with when they become overzealous.

A big part of the problem in Utah is that, I believe with very best of intentions, Mormons want to have missionary experiences but have so few opportunities. All while getting very little exposure to other religions. Sometimes in tripping over themselves to try to do mission work, they unintentionally do and say some things that can be perceived (rightly so) as offensive to neighbors of other faiths.

As for Diehard's experiences, I think those experiences are shameful.

[mUUser]

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

My daughter signed an LOI to play softball for a non LDS/non Utah school last fall and over the course of the year, her, my wife, and me have all been approached by various well-meaning, but completely out of line buttinski's sharing their concern with us over her choice of college to attend. My personal opinion is that a large population of LDS are obsessed with immersing themselves in complete and total LDS'ness, and when they're done working on themselves, they move on to others. Over the years, I've come to expect that there'll be a certain amount of hell to pay for operating outside the standard-issued LDS playbook.

Having said that, what were you thinking? Bountiful? You walked right into a hungry lions den with an armful of steaks.:p

[CardiacCoug]

When pressed, I told the next door neighbors that if I could attend any church I wanted, it would probably be Unitarian. God bless my neighbor, he says what’s on his mind: "Well, that’s not even a real church". Thanks for your candor, sir.


Good stuff.

You should have said, "Exactly. That's what is so great about it."

As you may know, First Unitarian in SLC has summers off except for a "Summer Forum" of interesting talks. What a church!!

Gotta be honest, I work in pretty much a 50/50 LDS/non-LDS environment and I don't see much proselytizing at all. I did take a non-LDS coworker from Spokane to the BYU-Gonzaga basketball game this year. He asked the 18-year old BYU coed at the concession stand for a light beer. She said, "They don't make one light enough for here."

You can appreciate what an incredible thrill and amazing experience this will be for your son to baptize his mom, right? Just the fact that your son is going to be so excited and happy over this should make you happy I would think.

[Jarid in Cedar]

There are reasons that I refer to LDS culture as "the borg". Resistance is futile.

[LA Ute]

Good stuff.

You should have said, "Exactly. That's what is so great about it."

As you may know, First Unitarian in SLC has summers off except for a "Summer Forum" of interesting talks. What a church!!

Gotta be honest, I work in pretty much a 50/50 LDS/non-LDS environment and I don't see much proselytizing at all. I did take a non-LDS coworker from Spokane to the BYU-Gonzaga basketball game this year. He asked the 18-year old BYU coed at the concession stand for a light beer. She said, "They don't make one light enough for here."

The environment where you work has long had a reputation for being one of the most culturally open-minded, live-and-let-live in Utah, I think because so many there either come from somewhere else or have spent substantial amounts of time living somewhere else. That adds perspective.


I think a big difference here is that Jews don't tend to try to convert people. They really are live and let live. Mormons, evangelical Christians and Jehova's Witnesses are an entirely different story. Very active in "mission work" and very often times, very annoying to live with when they become overzealous.

True. It was just a little taste for me of what it feels like to be a minority among a dominant religious culture with strong traditions.

[UteBeliever aka Port]

Having said that, what were you thinking? Bountiful? You walked right into a hungry lions den with an armful of steaks.:p

It could have been worse. He could have chosen Fruit Heights. (Where reported church attendance is over 90% of the POPULATION, not of church members.), Farmington, Centerville, or east Provo. Bountiful is so close to SLC that it gets a better mix of people than you'd think. It's not downtown SLC, but it's not nearly as Mormon as some of its neighbors to the north.

You get into Layton, Syracuse, Clearfield, etc. and Hill AFB starts to have a pretty non-LDS influence.

I'm sure there are parts of Utah County that are a lot like Fruit Heights. Probably Alpine or Highland. Maybe Mapleton?

[GUBA]

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

My daughter signed an LOI to play softball for a non LDS/non Utah school last fall and over the course of the year, her, my wife, and me have all been approached by various well-meaning, but completely out of line buttinski's sharing their concern with us over her choice of college to attend. My personal opinion is that a large population of LDS are obsessed with immersing themselves in complete and total LDS'ness, and when they're done working on themselves, they move on to others. Over the years, I've come to expect that there'll be a certain amount of hell to pay for operating outside the standard-issued LDS playbook.

Having said that, what were you thinking? Bountiful? You walked right into a hungry lions den with an armful of steaks.:p

I had some of the same type of reaction from some BYU alum neighbors in the small Mormon town I grew up in. In my case I had decided to attend U of Alberta and at that time it was considered de rigeur for kids to all go down to BYU. A few ward members were afraid that I would go astray with so "few members" at the university. Turns out we had a close knit ward of about 125 students and I had the best experience of my life. Now there are 7 student/ysa wards and they are looking at creating the first non-US student stake. I think it is so stupid that so many LDS people feel the need to stick their nose in others business. I find it highly distasteful.

[Scratch]

I had some of the same type of reaction from some BYU alum neighbors in the small Mormon town I grew up in. In my case I had decided to attend U of Alberta and at that time it was considered de rigeur for kids to all go down to BYU. A few ward members were afraid that I would go astray with so "few members" at the university. Turns out we had a close knit ward of about 125 students and I had the best experience of my life. Now there are 7 student/ysa wards and they are looking at creating the first non-US student stake. I think it is so stupid that so many LDS people feel the need to stick their nose in others business. I find it highly distasteful.

When I was going to law school, I had several BYU-affiliated people tell me how I'd get a better education if I went to BYU instead of going back east, and that everyone who went away to law school ended up regretting not going to BYU. I'd tell these people that if I was going to stick around I'd go to the U and that would shut them up.

One of my best law school friends from Garden Grove had a ward member light into him for not going to BYU for law school. The guy told my friend that he owed it to the church to go to BYU. I have no idea where these guys get these ideas from, because it clearly isn't the LDS church itself.

The funny thing is that I've known a bunch of people who went to BYU law school say that they regret it because it's more competitive than most similarly-ranked law schools because there are so many fathers with three kids who are freaked out about supporting their families who study non-stop so they can finish near the top of the class, so it's much harded to finish, say, in the top 15%, but the top 15% at BYU are getting the same type of jobs as grads from similarly ranked law schools.

[UTEopia]

Although I consider myself to be a practicing member of the LDS Church, having lived in Utah for most of my life, I have unfortunately seen way too much of what Ma'ake and Diehard describe. All I can say is that it is not consistent with what I believe the tenets of my religion to be but rather results from insecurity and overzealousness in attempting to implement the teachings of the LDS church respecting the Gospel of Jesus Christ and missionary work. I have a neighbor who was formerly a Mormon and we are good friends. Every once in a while she will call me and ask if she is on some sort of list in the Ward because she has been getting calls and visits and all sorts of things. She then asks me to ask them to take her off the list, that she knows where we are and if she needs us she will just show up. This usually coincides with a change in Relief Society leadership or something else. Well this last happened about 2 years ago and I called the person who had been calling her and told her in polite terms to back off. She started crying and explaining that she was just doing what she had felt she should do after attending a conference. There is boorish behavior (not allowing your kids to play with non-LDS kids) and then there is clueless behavior. The boorish behavior is inexcusable; the clueless is somewhat more understandable (at least to me). However, the clueless can be just as offensive and hurtful as the boorish.

[Scratch]

BTW, if there are people getting this worked up about whether kids go to BYU for undergrad or law school, just imagine how it must be for athletes.

[USS Utah]

Having said that, what were you thinking? Bountiful? You walked right into a hungry lions den with an armful of steaks.:p

Don't be trashing my hometown, pal.

[USS Utah]

There's a fine line between being proactive and being overzealous. I try to be proactive, but if a person tells me they are not interested, I accept that and move on. I suppose one can check back over the years, because things can change.


I figured out when I was still rather young that since I didn't like being on the receiving end of crap, it was incumbent upon me not to dish out crap. It has been my experiences that most people, not just Mormons but pretty much the entire human race, simply cannot grasp this simple concept. A lot of people buy into what I call the pyrite rule: Do unto others before they do unto me.

[Diehard Ute]

I honestly believe those parents who kept their children from associating with me did so out of fear, not malice.

They're not secure in their children's ability to make what they feel is the proper and right decision, so their reaction is to not allow them to experience anything except what they want them to experience

I am glad to say from what I'm told most of Salt Lake has mellowed. My experience thorough high school was miserable, but that seems to have changed for the better.

I know as a teenager I never could understand why other teenagers cared so much about if and where I went to church, because that's not something the faith I was raised in cared one lick about. I also couldn't figure out why when the missionaries knocked on our door (and seriously, after 35 no's you'd think they'd put us on the do not knock list ;) ) some of them would not leave when we told them no.

Most were very kind and accepting when we said no, but I remember one pair, at about 830 at night who refused to leave. My dad was trying to be nice, but finally had to shut the door in their face.

Reality is, it's never the religion or organization itself, it's those who take such things so seriously they go to the extremes. And it seems in talking to a lot of my LDS friends who grew up outside Utah that they're shocked when they see those folks as well.

(Side note. Handing a police officer your temple recommend when you get pulled over is not a good idea. Yes I've had it happen more than once)

[Jarid in Cedar]

(Side note. Handing a police officer your temple recommend when you get pulled over is not a good idea. Yes I've had it happen more than once)

I will neither confirm nor deny that I snorted and literally LOL'ed at this one.

[Diehard Ute]

For those who don't know, the Tribune columnist Robert Kirby was a police officer in Utah County for several years prior to his writing gig

He had a gentleman hand him his temple recommend and since he was tired of such things, he wrote 'VOID' across it and gave it back.

He maintains to this day it was well worth the 3 days off without pay he received for the action

[Ex'dute]

Ma'ake, I feel for you. I really do.

I am a "recovering Mormon" myself and the good news is that I'm almost fully recovered -- having my name off the records now and everything. Still, "The Church" -- as most Utahns call it, as if there is only one and regularly offending many who don't believe the same way -- has a huge impact on my daily life. I even have to "donate" money to the LDS church on a regular basis to pay for my daughter's mission.

The ONLY reason my daughter is on a mission right now is that they changed the mission age. She is 19 and NEVER had plans to go on a mission and I doubt she would have if they would have kept it at 21. She got swept up in the excitement of the announcement and her friends were going and . . .

Those of you that are believers probably think this is a good thing -- and I am sure she will help some people and grow in the 18 months she is out. But it's sad for me because she is so young and talented and I would rather she be working on her education than trying to bring "lost souls" into a religion I honestly believe was started by a charismatic charlatan.

Forgive my cynicism, but I truly think the age for missions was reduced for boys to 18 and girls to 19 so that the LDS church doesn't lose them to "the ways of the world" after high school as often. Once boys and girls go on missions and are indoctrinated in all things LDS the whole time, it's hard to leave. I know his first hand. I am a returned missionary myself and thought I had the strongest testimony in the world. Nothing could shatter it. But then, about 10 years after I got home from my mission I started really studying LDS history. Let's just say that there was a lot of stuff they don't tell you about in Sunday School, seminary and institute. I pretty much quit believing -- but continued to go through the motions for a number of years due to family and social pressures. I even got called as the first councilor in a bishopric and to a stake young men's presidency as a non-believer -- because I simply couldn't tell people how I really felt.

I must say that now that I am completely out, I've never been happier. The only downside is the hurt I caused my parents and other family members and friends who are sure I have a one-way ticket to the telestial kingdom -- or worse -- when I die. I just couldn't live the lie anymore, so it was worth a divorce and the occasional uncomfortable family situation.

Sorry to ramble so much. Just keep your head up, Ma'ake. Things may be uncomfortable with the family for awhile, but time will heal some of the tender feelings. It probably will never be perfect, but it will get better.

[UtahsMrSports]

For those who don't know, the Tribune columnist Robert Kirby was a police officer in Utah County for several years prior to his writing gig

He had a gentleman hand him his temple recommend and since he was tired of such things, he wrote 'VOID' across it and gave it back.

He maintains to this day it was well worth the 3 days off without pay he received for the action

This is funny!

[Dawminator]

Ma'ake, I feel for you. I really do.

Still, "The Church" -- as most Utahns call it, as if there is only one and regularly offending many who don't believe the same way -- has a huge impact on my daily life.


This is a pet peeve of mine. It drives me absolutely crazy. Not because Mormons are so insensitive, but because they are accused of being so. I lived back east where the Catholic Church was called "The Church" and no one (protestant, Mormon, or Jew) made any sort of fuss about it. Everybody knew that it was not intended to degrade any other religious organization. And when I say it, I don't say it with such intent. Having said all of that, I don't say it that much anymore unless I am with family and friends who are also LDS. If it offends people, even for dumb reasons where no offense is even remotely intended, I think it is best to meet in the middle and just stop saying it.

I guess my point is, and I am sorry for getting off topic, sometimes people are just looking for reasons to complain. I do not have a persecution complex. I love Utah. I wish I still lived there. But one of the best parts about living outside of Utah is that there is no animosity between Mormons and members of other faiths. And believe me it goes both ways and both look for ways to get offended.

[FountainOfUte]

Thanks for sharing, Ma'ake. First and foremost, your candor is admirable. Some thoughts I had as I read through your account:

1) I don't think the Golden Rule and "Live, and let live" are the same thing. At times they can be in harmony, and they can contradict.
2) A sincere question: If you see the positives in different religions, why are you troubled that your son and wife have embraced the LDS faith?
3) As a follow up to question #2, do you feel that your son's friend's mom and others were doing something wrong by reaching out to your family members? Clearly something resonated with your wife and son. Isn't that good? I get why you'd prefer it didn't happen as it has, but what about your wife and son? Aren't you happy they've found something that speaks to them spiritually? Would you feel the same way if it were some other religion or sect, or are you bothered specifically that it's the LDS faith that's found them given your own sentiments and history with that church?
4) The stake president/skin color thing is awkward to read about. But if you'll allow me to be a bit of an apologist, maybe your son's conversion *will* and *has* had some positive effect on someone's perception of race. Is that bad?

Anyway, I hope I've not been offensive or insensitive. These are just some questions and thoughts that crossed my mind as I read your account.

[GUBA]

Dawm the major difference is the Catholics do not treat non-Catholics with the same dismissive attitude or in many cases outright disdain that I observe LDS people treating Non-LDS people here in Utah. I lived a long time in a very catholic area back home so I know whereof I speak. I think it is at best shameful and at worst disgusting how a great many LDS treat non-LDS here in Utah.

[Dawminator]

Dawm the major difference is the Catholics do not treat non-Catholics with the same dismissive attitude or in many cases outright disdain that I observe LDS people treating Non-LDS people here in Utah. I lived a long time in a very catholic area back home so I know whereof I speak. I think it is at best shameful and at worst disgusting how a great many LDS treat non-LDS here in Utah.

Oh I agree. I hate hearing stories about LDS parents not letting their kids be friends with people just because they aren't memebers of the LDS Church. I completely understand that there are plenty of things to get offended about. Both ways. Then there is "The Church." I don't think Catholics are the only ones who have earned the right to refer to their church as "The Church" without it being offensive.

[Solon]

This is a pet peeve of mine. It drives me absolutely crazy. Not because Mormons are so insensitive, but because they are accused of being so. I lived back east where the Catholic Church was called "The Church" and no one (protestant, Mormon, or Jew) made any sort of fuss about it. Everybody knew that it was not intended to degrade any other religious organization. And when I say it, I don't say it with such intent. Having said all of that, I don't say it that much anymore unless I am with family and friends who are also LDS. If it offends people, even for dumb reasons where no offense is even remotely intended, I think it is best to meet in the middle and just stop saying it.

I guess my point is, and I am sorry for getting off topic, sometimes people are just looking for reasons to complain. I do not have a persecution complex. I love Utah. I wish I still lived there. But one of the best parts about living outside of Utah is that there is no animosity between Mormons and members of other faiths. And believe me it goes both ways and both look for ways to get offended.


This is a good point. I agree that everyone can be more sensitive, but lots of places refer to "the Church". For many it just means a Christain regardless of specific denomination (e.g., "that guy was raised in the Church"). In European history, it refers to the Catholic church. I don't see a problem with Utahns using it to refer to the predominant religion, provided they are sensitive to the fact that other religions exist (which is a pretty low bar to reach).

[LadyUte]

My two daughters are absolute opposites when it comes to the LDS church. My oldest is borderline obsessive. Everything in her life is about the LDS church. Her tweets, her facebook posts. It is all she talks about. Her and her friends hang out in the Mormon Corner at school. My second daughter is much more laid back like I am. She always tells me she hates being in a huge group of Lds kids because they makes her feel weird.

WE live in a very inactive area. And I like that. Nice for my kids not to think everybody goes to the same church. They see good people who do not go to church. A lot of their friends are not members. But the push on reactivating people can get on my nerves. If someone is interested I have no problem talking to them about it. I am not going to treat my neighbors like they are my project. If they are not interested that is it. And really, I don't care if people go to church or not. Doesn't change my opinion of who they are.

[Rocker Ute]

It is always interesting to hear different perspectives and experiences. I grew up in an area in SLC that I have been told is marketed by realtors as a non-LDS friendly area and that the Mormons there would leave you alone. (Side note: I have a hard time believing this for the various equal housing laws being broken, but whatever).

However, whether that was true or not, we were sort of a quasi minority here in SLC. The majority of my friends weren't LDS and we seemed to have mostly mutual respect. I invited friends to LDS stuff and they invited me to their church stuff and it was typically good.

One particularly close friend was evangelical Christian and was pretty active in his attempts to save me. I remember one activity when I was about 14 getting cornered by some adults of his church who spent some time refuting my beliefs and praying over me. It was pretty aggressive and intimidating, but my parents simply asked me what I thought about it. Definitely not a live and let live experience from the other side I guess. But for me I dismissed it as people who cared about me and their faith.

Sadly, this same friend ultimately cut his ties with me while I was a missionary writing me a letter telling me I was going to hell for what I was doing and that his letter was my last chance to be saved and he hasn't spoken to me since.

These sort of experiences have taught me that sometimes good intentions can be hurtful and remind me to keep my own desires to share what I care about based on caring and respect and also to understand that people are mostly doing the best they can. In other words, I find great happiness in my faith, but having that commonality isn't necessary for a good relationship. I hope my kids learn the same thing.

If any Mormon parents in my hood had policies of not letting their kids play with non-LDS kids it would have meant sitting at home by themselves all of the time.

Anyway, this ramble is to say please try to recognize that these people are probably acting on good intentions however hurtful it may be to you. I hope some people can gain insight with you on that.

[UtahsMrSports]

It is always interesting to hear different perspectives and experiences. I grew up in an area in SLC that I have been told is marketed by realtors as a non-LDS friendly area and that the Mormons there would leave you alone. (Side note: I have a hard time believing this for the various equal housing laws being broken, but whatever).

However, whether that was true or not, we were sort of a quasi minority here in SLC. The majority of my friends weren't LDS and we seemed to have mostly mutual respect. I invited friends to LDS stuff and they invited me to their church stuff and it was typically good.

One particularly close friend was evangelical Christian and was pretty active in his attempts to save me. I remember one activity when I was about 14 getting cornered by some adults of his church who spent some time refuting my beliefs and praying over me. It was pretty aggressive and intimidating, but my parents simply asked me what I thought about it. Definitely not a live and let live experience from the other side I guess. But for me I dismissed it as people who cared about me and their faith.

Sadly, this same friend ultimately cut his ties with me while I was a missionary writing me a letter telling me I was going to hell for what I was doing and that his letter was my last chance to be saved and he hasn't spoken to me since.

These sort of experiences have taught me that sometimes good intentions can be hurtful and remind me to keep my own desires to share what I care about based on caring and respect and also to understand that people are mostly doing the best they can. In other words, I find great happiness in my faith, but having that commonality isn't necessary for a good relationship. I hope my kids learn the same thing.

If any Mormon parents in my hood had policies of not letting their kids play with non-LDS kids it would have meant sitting at home by themselves all of the time.

Anyway, this ramble is to say please try to recognize that these people are probably acting on good intentions however hurtful it may be to you. I hope some people can gain insight with you on that.

Wow. With "friends" like that, who needs enemies!

[Rocker Ute]

Wow. With "friends" like that, who needs enemies!

You know, while I'm sad by desire to cut ties, to him his proselytizing me was always an act of love in his mind, so it is hard to be offended by that. For him, I was a person he cared about a lot and earnestly wanted what he viewed as what was best for me. But he also viewed what I was doing as an affront to God. I imagine that now, almost 20 years post this instance he wouldn't be so hardline. Who knows.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Ma'ake,
How will those same friends feel if your family attended your other church from time to time (or perhaps on rotating weekends)?

Of course they will be 'concerned' and will ramp up the fellowshipping efforts and perhaps give your wife a calling that takes up much of her free time, without recognizing they are in effect keeping her away from her existing friends.

I empathize with your position, and I respect your ability to let your son and wife choose their own path despite your own understanding of and experience with the church.

[mUUser]

You know, while I'm sad by desire to cut ties, to him his proselytizing me was always an act of love in his mind........


The first approach may be an act of love, but subsequent attempts is meddlesome, bothersome, disrespectful. That's how I see it anyway.

[Utah]

I find it interesting when people rip on a certain way of thinking, religion, activites, etc and do it in such a way that shows that they are just as bigoted as the people they rip on.

To the OP, I've learned that every step of life has its good and bad and when I focus on all the good that will come out of a certain situation, everything seems to go smoother and the bad pebbles don't seem to trip me up as badly.

Life is what you make of it. Be happy that your child and wife and found something that they believe will make them better people. Enjoy their happiness, and take a step back when you don't feel comfortable. Maybe you won't go back, but you might turn out a little better because of it as well. Enjoy the activities your other children like to take part in as well. They have good to share and happiness that will equal the other experiences.

That would be my worthless two cents. :)

[Diehard Ute]

I find it interesting when people rip on a certain way of thinking, religion, activites, etc and do it in such a way that shows that they are just as bigoted as the people they rip on.

To the OP, I've learned that every step of life has its good and bad and when I focus on all the good that will come out of a certain situation, everything seems to go smoother and the bad pebbles don't seem to trip me up as badly.

Life is what you make of it. Be happy that your child and wife and found something that they believe will make them better people. Enjoy their happiness, and take a step back when you don't feel comfortable. Maybe you won't go back, but you might turn out a little better because of it as well. Enjoy the activities your other children like to take part in as well. They have good to share and happiness that will equal the other experiences.

That would be my worthless two cents. :)

There seems to be a lot of irony in your message, I'm not sure if you intended it or not.

[wally]

For those who don't know, the Tribune columnist Robert Kirby was a police officer in Utah County for several years prior to his writing gig

He had a gentleman hand him his temple recommend and since he was tired of such things, he wrote 'VOID' across it and gave it back.

He maintains to this day it was well worth the 3 days off without pay he received for the action

I heard Kirby tell this story as a speaker at a convention. Kirby is hilarious in person. I am definitely a Kirby-Mormon.

[Diehard Ute]

I heard Kirby tell this story as a speaker at a convention. Kirby is hilarious in person. I am definitely a Kirby-Mormon.

I'm a Kirby Non Mormon haha

He's just a genuinely good person. His passion and dedication for the fallen officers of Utah is admirable

[NorthwestUteFan]

There seems to be a lot of irony in your message, I'm not sure if you intended it or not.

Neither intended nor recognized.

[Ma'ake]

Ma'ake,
How will those same friends feel if your family attended your other church from time to time (or perhaps on rotating weekends)?

Of course they will be 'concerned' and will ramp up the fellowshipping efforts and perhaps give your wife a calling that takes up much of her free time, without recognizing they are in effect keeping her away from her existing friends.

I empathize with your position, and I respect your ability to let your son and wife choose their own path despite your own understanding of and experience with the church.

My hunch is that if my wife were to go back to visit our "old" church occasionally, it would be seen as "OK", especially if she can be an example of a black Baptist becoming a Mormon and things working pretty well. If she can sort of "pave the way" for other black Baptists to make the switch, it would definitely be encouraged. But, at this point, to be candid, I think my wife would have a hard time facing her old church friends and associates. She has mixed emotions, and told me she feels like a traitor.

Incidentally, I saw one of our old church friends today, a black woman who had a similar experience to us, in that her daughter decided to become LDS and even went on a mission. Something happened on her mission, and I don't know the details, but her daughter came home early, and reportedly hasn't been back to LDS church since, but she got married to a non-LDS white guy here in SLC. "Our prayers have been answered!" (I just shake my head at these conversion "conquests", no matter which way they go.) I just hope her daughter is doing OK for the experience and everything works out.

There's a guy who I think is a founder of the LDS Genesis Group, which is a group for black LDS, who regularly goes to my old black Baptist church, which I thought was "interesting", but I just kind of assumed he was coming out of respect for the Pastor here in SLC and maintain a connection with the African American community. I'm told there's more to the story and his desire to be among the African American church members is stronger than appears (even though going regularly is an indication, I suppose.)

I've seen a couple of different women come to the black Baptist church who are direct descendents of the two blacks who were in Brigham Young's party when the LDS came into the SL Valley. Green Flake is one of the pioneer's names, and the other I think has the lastname Bankhead. Anyway, both of these women had had LDS roots and decided to attend (or maybe even convert to, I don't know) the African American church and find fellowship and some level of support and comfort. I've known of other people who've gone back & forth, I would imagine with some complications in emotions, if they're old enough to remember the previous history or have learned about it.

It's a tender topic for some, for others it's a non-issue. Time heals. That's a good thing. I'm glad my kids didn't have to deal with the "ban", even if they weren't LDS, in Utah. It certainly altered the thinking people had of blacks, when I was a kid. I don't think we could live in Utah had the ban not been lifted and some time passed to change hearts and minds.

Anyway, my son comes home tomorrow, my wife is set to be baptized that night, which is a remarkable story, in itself. I think my LDS aunt will try to get a story in one of the LDS magazines. It's certainly a noteworthy accomplishment for the locals, or a reason to rejoice, depending on perspective. I'm a little doubtful it will make it as a media story, because it could expose some of the more raw feelings among the African American community, and some immediate family turmoil, etc.

Thank you guys for your responses. I appreciate the community here.

[Katy Lied]

I have had encounters here in the Salt Lake Valley that show me that non-LDS people sometimes have stronger prejudices and biases against mormons than the opposite. I work with a woman who is normally nice but absolutely hates mormons. She is sweeping and broad in her condemnation of mormons. She will not socialize with mormons at work, she won't even sit next to one at company social events. She will approach non-LDS coworkers and talk loudly about how awful mormons are, to the point that her audience will become uncomfortable and make excuses to escape her tirades. I often wonder if I should report her to HR for discrimination.

[jrj84105]

I feel for you Ma'ake. The de-conversion process, and the intense introspection involved in those decisions, is often a defining experience for us ex-Mormons, especially those of us who made that decision during the formative years of our teens or young adult life. Having the closest people in your life join the Mormon church must feel like rejection of a core part of you. If you're like me, rejection of the church wasn't all or nothing as there are certain Mormon values that hold up without the flawed theological underpinnings. Hopefully, you can enjoy those shared values with your LDS family members and grow closer in that respect. The long term outlook is better than the short-term however. Retention rates for converts are pretty terrible, and more than likely, some or all of your family members are going to turn to you for advice and comfort as they go through their own de-conversion process. Even if there is some element of rejection of your core principles right now, odds are there will be a greater appreciation in the future of who you are and how you formed your beliefs. Good luck to you and your family.

[UtahsMrSports]

I have had encounters here in the Salt Lake Valley that show me that non-LDS people sometimes have stronger prejudices and biases against mormons than the opposite. I work with a woman who is normally nice but absolutely hates mormons. She is sweeping and broad in her condemnation of mormons. She will not socialize with mormons at work, she won't even sit next to one at company social events. She will approach non-LDS coworkers and talk loudly about how awful mormons are, to the point that her audience will become uncomfortable and make excuses to escape her tirades. I often wonder if I should report her to HR for discrimination.

Absolutely you should.

[Ma'ake]

I feel for you Ma'ake. The de-conversion process, and the
intense introspection involved in those decisions, is often a defining
experience for us ex-Mormons, especially those of us who made that decision
during the formative years of our teens or young adult life. Having the closest
people in your life join the Mormon church must feel like rejection of a core
part of you. If you're like me, rejection of the church wasn't all or nothing as
there are certain Mormon values that hold up without the flawed theological
underpinnings. Hopefully, you can enjoy those shared values with your LDS family
members and grow closer in that respect. The long term outlook is better than
the short-term however. Retention rates for converts are pretty terrible, and
more than likely, some or all of your family members are going to turn to you
for advice and comfort as they go through their own de-conversion process. Even
if there is some element of rejection of your core principles right now, odds
are there will be a greater appreciation in the future of who you are and how
you formed your beliefs. Good luck to you and your family.

Thank you, jrj. You've pretty much nailed what I've gone through, the emotions involved, both historically and what has bubbled up in the recent past. I had left the church in the late 70s and struggled through all those wrenching emotions by myself, and was frankly blown away when I ran into the websites of people who were going through the same thing, in the past 10 years. Since I'd already wrestled with the emotions, it was more of an intellectual curiosity than an
intense arousal, at least until recently with the intra-family
stuff.

It's really reassuring that you're not alone in some of these
struggles.

I think for faithful LDS, the analogy that maybe best captures
how it feels now is if you were living in Texas and had well-meaning Evangelical neighbors start working on "saving" your kids when they're in their formative years. Not exactly a pro-family thing to do, when you think about it from that angle. But underneath it all, the intent is well meaning. It's hard to be angry with people who are trying to "save" you or your family members. A frustrating predicament.

Katy lied: We non or ex-LDS who live in the SL Valley who run into the hard core LDS haters, though we can understand their frustration, often try to diffuse their anger, if that means anything. I try to point out all the good things about LDS folks, and how much things have changed, and how much more cognizant they are that their unintentional exclusion of
others socially does damage. The leaders have had really good advice to the members along these lines, a good thing.

Through the unique prism I've been exposed to the past 25 years, I've seen many, many African American couples come and go through Utah, and other non-LDS, as well, of course. It seems like people come to accept the peculiarities and look beyond them, learning to love Utah for the really good people and fantastic outdoor opportunities, or they feel oppressed and can't wait to get out. A lot of times the different viewpoints are within the same couple. They usually end up leaving.

That said, there is a growing diversity within SLC that I find
quite refreshing. The Mormon / non-Mormon divide has sort of dissipated among a lot of young people, who recognize that while Utah was founded by LDS, the entire "struggle" for social and ideological dominance has died down and a
peaceful coexistence has grown.

I fantasize about moving to SLC fromBountiful.

It's kind of like an episode from the old TV series "Taxi",
where Louie (Danny DeVito) has a fling with his boss's wife, who is trying to get back at her husband, for something. Louie falls in love and thinks he's hit the jackpot, but the wife realizes how disgusting he is and breaks it off, a really bad one-night stand.

She explains "the less I see you, the more I love you". I'm kind of at that point with a lot of my neighbors right now. I'd really, really like to move to SLC.

[USS Utah]

I'm sorry that you're not happy in Bountiful, I love it here. I wish I could make it better for you an your family.

[UtahsMrSports]

Thank you, jrj. You've pretty much nailed what I've gone through, the emotions involved, both historically and what has bubbled up in the recent past. I had left the church in the late 70s and struggled through all those wrenching emotions by myself, and was frankly blown away when I ran into the websites of people who were going through the same thing, in the past 10 years. Since I'd already wrestled with the emotions, it was more of an intellectual curiosity than an
intense arousal, at least until recently with the intra-family
stuff.

It's really reassuring that you're not alone in some of these
struggles.

I think for faithful LDS, the analogy that maybe best captures
how it feels now is if you were living in Texas and had well-meaning Evangelical neighbors start working on "saving" your kids when they're in their formative years. Not exactly a pro-family thing to do, when you think about it from that angle. But underneath it all, the intent is well meaning. It's hard to be angry with people who are trying to "save" you or your family members. A frustrating predicament.

Katy lied: We non or ex-LDS who live in the SL Valley who run into the hard core LDS haters, though we can understand their frustration, often try to diffuse their anger, if that means anything. I try to point out all the good things about LDS folks, and how much things have changed, and how much more cognizant they are that their unintentional exclusion of
others socially does damage. The leaders have had really good advice to the members along these lines, a good thing.

Through the unique prism I've been exposed to the past 25 years, I've seen many, many African American couples come and go through Utah, and other non-LDS, as well, of course. It seems like people come to accept the peculiarities and look beyond them, learning to love Utah for the really good people and fantastic outdoor opportunities, or they feel oppressed and can't wait to get out. A lot of times the different viewpoints are within the same couple. They usually end up leaving.

That said, there is a growing diversity within SLC that I find
quite refreshing. The Mormon / non-Mormon divide has sort of dissipated among a lot of young people, who recognize that while Utah was founded by LDS, the entire "struggle" for social and ideological dominance has died down and a
peaceful coexistence has grown.

I fantasize about moving to SLC fromBountiful.

It's kind of like an episode from the old TV series "Taxi",
where Louie (Danny DeVito) has a fling with his boss's wife, who is trying to get back at her husband, for something. Louie falls in love and thinks he's hit the jackpot, but the wife realizes how disgusting he is and breaks it off, a really bad one-night stand.

She explains "the less I see you, the more I love you". I'm kind of at that point with a lot of my neighbors right now. I'd really, really like to move to SLC.

Ma'ake,

Hope things went well yesterday. Hope that the reunion with your son was full of joy. Wishing you and yours the best.

[Ma'ake]

Ma'ake,

Hope things went well yesterday. Hope that the reunion with your son was full of joy. Wishing you and yours the best.

Thanks UtahMrSports. It went well, I'm so glad to have him home, and I'm happy for my wife, she is both ecstatic my son's home, and she's visibly moved to be formally a member of a church she's been attending for years.

My daughter was crying, she told me later, because one of the hymns was a Christian hymn and she felt she was losing her Christian mom. Many others were crying for joy. They had me speak, I just thanked everyone for the support they give my son and wife, and their sincere well wishes.

Later on, my youngest son and his rock band held a concert in our front yard with some other bands, and there were plenty of "other side of the track" teenagers whose parents I'm sure wish they had their children "back" from the dark side.

It was a "day of contrasts", that's for sure.

It’s hard to be angry with people who truly mean you well, even if the results create a division within the family, on some levels. I was at peace; the alternative really isn’t me.

Looking at my own extended family, who have deep pioneer roots on one side, it is remarkable how some within the same family have religion “resonate” with them, whether they’re LDS, Greek Orthodox or in my aunt and cousins’ case, had a conversion to Judaism. (The stereotype of Jews as being financially “well off” certainly rings true for that branch of the family. They spent $300,000 on my cousin’s wedding. Wow. It’s understandable if they believe they’re God’s chosen people.)

And yet many others prefer to leave religion alone, even in my pioneer roots. My great grandfather had his entire family convert to Mormonism, but he was staunchly “independent”. He was even a part of the Constitution Convention for the State of Utah and a good friend of the LDS Prophet Heber J. Grant, but on Sundays he would steer clear of the ward house.

I have an uncle who came back from his mission and hasn’t been back to church since, except if family members are giving talks, etc. The rest of his family is pretty devout LDS, but in going to family reunions I had no idea who was who. Everyone is friendly and happy to be together. I have a cousin who served a mission and is no longer active.

So, for whatever reason, “the spirit” seems to resonate with some, and doesn’t with others, frequently in the same family. Or some view things more critically and are wary of what appears to be spiritual, but often leads is not-so-good directions.

Yesterday evening, it was like a mini-church service, with hymns, talks, prayers, etc. One woman, whom I’ve known since Jr. Highschool, sang the same song played at my dad’s funeral, 2 months ago. Her own mother passed away a couple of days ago, and she has (I think) a couple of sons who have come out of the closet, or maybe one has and everyone suspects another is on the verge.

The woman who gave the closing prayer has had her two sons come out of the closet and they now live out of state. (I normally would have no idea this was the case, but my wife’s been plugged into the ward gossip machine, so I hear things I’m not used to hearing.)

So, these people have suffered a great deal within their own families, within their faith traditions, even though from my perspective, if one of my kids was gay it wouldn’t bother me. I think it’s just a variation of biology, and I support gay marriage, I think it would do many of them good to settle down and get married.

This morning my son was released from being a missionary by the Stake President. It was a touching moment. The Stake President said I was great father, and all that, and that he didn't think he'd be able to do what I've done (ie, watch part of my family go to a different church.) I have to give credit to the Hindus on that one, as they believe there is more than one good path in life back to God. Then he said the next step is for us all to get sealed in the temple (well, after the rest of my kids get baptized, presumably, which I would say has about a 0% chance of happening.)

My aunt told me recently deceased father is eligible for the Melchizidek (upper) priesthood a year after his death, and she would like to see me be the one that gives him that priesthood. She's in her 80s and I don't think she fully appreciates where I stand in relation to religions, including LDS religion. Actually her own returned missionary son is broken away, and I have no idea if she fully comprehends that, or how she feels, etc.

It's really hard to get angry with people who mean well.

It’s a beautiful Saturday. I’m going hiking today. I’m way, waaaaay overdue for some peace and solitude.

One last thought, even a plug for Ute nation: I appreciate all the well wishes, from wherever they come from. I may be a little biased, but it seems to me the LDS Utes are generally better able to accomodate diverse viewpoints and predicaments, maybe because we're diverse to begin with, at least on these type of issues. (A lot of cool Cougs here, too.)

Thank you, thank you for all the support. I've kind of laid it all out here, and you guys have been great. I think I speak for Diehard and other non-LDS Utes when I say we appreciate you guys and your attitudes, your obvious caring and concern.

Onward to football!!!!!!

[jrj84105]

I was having a sort of parallel crisis at the same time. My wife and I come from different cultural backgrounds, both inextricably wrapped around religion, and as non-believers struggle to find a way to impart a sense of cultural identity to our little one without teasing the extended family with the prospects of a religious upbringing. It's a struggle to define the appropriate level of closeness and distance and a step too close last week brought up a lot of feelings of distrust, anger, and resentment that I hadn't experienced since I was 14. It was good to know I wasn't in that boat alone.

[UtahDan]

Ma'ake I have a feeling there are more chapters to be written here, especially with respect to your wife. Good luck and hang in there.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[Applejack]

Ma'ake, your story is very literary - if it's not too painful, you should write a short story and submit it somewhere. It has a lot of Faulkneresque motifs.

I admire your attitude throughout the whole affair - I hope, but am very unsure, that I would have handled everything with such grace. Best of luck to you and your family.