BSA first says it will now allow gay scouts, but not gay leaders; but now leaders too

[UtahDan]

I didn't see a thread on this and wanted to share the podcast we just cranked out last night about this, as well as start some discussion. One thing I think is interested is that people are already crediting the church for being the moving force behind this change or at least being responsible for it.

39: Responses to the Boy Scouts of America Decision (http://mormonexpositor.com/39-responses-to-the-boy-scouts-of-america-decision/)
Podcast: Play in new window (http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpositor/p/media.blubrry.com/mormonexpositorpodcast/p/mormonexpositor.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mxp-episode_039.mp3) | Download (http://media.blubrry.com/mormonexpositor/p/media.blubrry.com/mormonexpositorpodcast/p/mormonexpositor.com//wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mxp-episode_039.mp3) (Duration: 35:56 — 24.7MB)
Brandt, Paul, Troy, and Heather react to the Boy Scouts of America’s decision to lift the ban on gay youth participation and discuss statements from: the BSA, the LDS Church, Mitch Mayne, and Kevin Kloosterman.
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2 Comments (http://mormonexpositor.com/39-responses-to-the-boy-scouts-of-america-decision/#comments)
May 24, 2013
By Heather C. (http://mormonexpositor.com/author/heather/) General (http://mormonexpositor.com/category/general/) Tags: Brandt (http://mormonexpositor.com/tag/brandt/), Heather (http://mormonexpositor.com/tag/heather/), Troy (http://mormonexpositor.com/tag/troy/)

[LA Ute]

On one end of the spectrum, people will be deeply disappointed and will see this as the Scouts caving in to immorality. On the other end, people will be deeply disappointed and will see this as an unacceptable half-step toward the only morally acceptable solution: no restriction at all, on anyone. In the middle people will think it's a good compromise.

[jrj84105]

I find this whole thing so silly. The only homosexual scout I knew quit because, and I totally agreed with his appraisal, Boy Scouts is way too gay.

[LA Ute]

Washington Post today:

Why Mormons back the new scouting policy

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-faith/wp/2013/05/31/why-mormons-back-the-new-scouting-policy/

[Mormon Red Death]

https://mobile.twitter.com/mjv1975/status/340877221554159618/photo/1

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[Jarid in Cedar]

https://mobile.twitter.com/mjv1975/status/340877221554159618/photo/1

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

That is pretty damn funny.

[LA Ute]

Southern Baptists Condemn Boy Scouts' 'Ungodly' Policy on Gays (http://www.newsmax.com/newswidget/baptists-boy-scouts-condemned/2013/06/12/id/509645?promo_code=1238F-1&utm_source=1238FInstapundit&utm_medium=nmwidget&utm_campaign=widgetphase1)I like it that my own church is to the left of these folks.

[mUUser]

......I like it that my own church is to the left of these folks.


Won't get to say that often. Like, maybe once, then never again.

[LA Ute]

Won't get to say that often. Like, maybe once, then never again.

Oh, they're much more hard-core than Mormons are on most issues. Even my friends who are conservative evangelical Christians have a hard time with the Southern Baptists on many social issues.

[mUUser]

Not so fast my friend......




http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program

[Rocker Ute]

Not so fast my friend......




http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program

"As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available. Those worldwide needs combined with this vote by the BSA National Executive Board will be carefully reviewed by the leaders of the Church in the weeks ahead.”

If that isn't a "we don't need you anyway" statement, I don't know what is.

I texted that link to our scoutmaster who has been asking me for a donation and said, "So should I hold off on that donation for a bit of double it?" He didn't think it was very funny.

On a more serious note, I have had some serious problems with scouting for a long time. But the most glaring and damning one I've maybe talked about.

When I was 15 and a new Eagle Scout I got a summer job at cub country up Millcreek Canyon. My mom dropped me off the first day, met the guy in charge and then grabbed me and said in a tone as serious as she ever got, "Under no circumstance are you to be alone with that guy. If it happens you just leave, don't bother being polite..." I didn't get it, but I did listen. She was uneasy the whole time, I lasted about two weeks and she eventually insisted that I quit, for no other reason than being creeped out by him.

A couple of years later he was in jail for you know what. Thank the good Lord for my mom.

Now the scouting program has come a long way in this regard, and I don't know that there is anything that is inherent of scouting that causes this, rather it is a gathering of young boys that makes it a target for pedos.

But that is some serious stuff and a serious risk. Couple that with other BS like a $250k salary for the head of the Great Salt Lake Council and more... It is probably time for the BSA to go away as we know it.

[Scorcho]

"As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available. Those worldwide needs combined with this vote by the BSA National Executive Board will be carefully reviewed by the leaders of the Church in the weeks ahead.”

If that isn't a "we don't need you anyway" statement, I don't know what is.

I texted that link to our scoutmaster who has been asking me for a donation and said, "So should I hold off on that donation for a bit of double it?" He didn't think it was very funny.

On a more serious note, I have had some serious problems with scouting for a long time. But the most glaring and damning one I've maybe talked about.

When I was 15 and a new Eagle Scout I got a summer job at cub country up Millcreek Canyon. My mom dropped me off the first day, met the guy in charge and then grabbed me and said in a tone as serious as she ever got, "Under no circumstance are you to be alone with that guy. If it happens you just leave, don't bother being polite..." I didn't get it, but I did listen. She was uneasy the whole time, I lasted about two weeks and she eventually insisted that I quit, for no other reason than being creeped out by him.

A couple of years later he was in jail for you know what. Thank the good Lord for my mom.

Now the scouting program has come a long way in this regard, and I don't know that there is anything that is inherent of scouting that causes this, rather it is a gathering of young boys that makes it a target for pedos.

But that is some serious stuff and a serious risk. Couple that with other BS like a $250k salary for the head of the Great Salt Lake Council and more... It is probably time for the BSA to go away as we know it.

my fear is that the LDS Church will come out with a program that focuses/resembles more of the Young Men's program than it does Scouting.

I'm not sure I could handle being a youth in today's church, they are being bombarded with religion.

[LA Ute]

I am not sure I understand today's strongly-worded statement. But here is what I have always wondered about this issue.

I have done a lot of Scouting, and I don't get what sexual matters of any kind have to do with Scouting. In a properly run Scout troop, I can't imagine how sex would come up prominently, other than in off-color adolescent jokes, around the campfire or in the scouts' tents. No adult leader is going to discuss or put on display his or her private sexual behavior (gay or straight) with the boys -- in the overwhelming majority of troops that'd get the leader dismissed. I think that would be true regardless of the leader's sexual orientation.

Maybe the church worries that this policy change will alter the moral environment in some way that allows or encourages a different approach to such matters? I don't see that myself; I'm just speculating. Maybe they are mainly upset that the decision was made without them. On its face that does seem a little like an end-run by the BSA.

That said, the new policy does give local units the right to choose their own leaders. I don't get why that didn't resolve the church's concerns. Maybe the church realizes that it will soon be a major outlier among Scout troops and will decide the BSA isn't just worth the trouble anymore.


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[Rocker Ute]

I am not sure I understand today's strongly-worded statement. But here is what I have always wondered about this issue.

I have done a lot of Scouting, and I don't get what sexual matters of any kind have to do with Scouting. In a properly run Scout troop, I can't imagine how sex would come up prominently, other than in off-color adolescent jokes, around the campfire or in the scouts' tents. No adult leader is going to discuss or put on display his or her private sexual behavior (gay or straight) with the boys -- in the overwhelming majority of troops that'd get the leader dismissed. I think that would be true regardless of the leader's sexual orientation.

Maybe the church worries that this policy change will alter the moral environment in some way that allows or encourages a different approach to such matters? I don't see that myself; I'm just speculating. Maybe they are mainly upset that the decision was made without them. On its face that does seem a little like an end-run by the BSA.

That said, the new policy does give local units the right to choose their own leaders. I don't get why that didn't resolve the church's concerns. Maybe the church realizes that it will soon be a major outlier among Scout troops and will decide the BSA isn't just worth the trouble anymore.


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I agree with this, if you are doing scouts right it will be a non-factor.

My wife and I talked about this though and both loved the thought of establishing an equal program for both young men and young women... Similar activities like camping and hiking and all the scout stuff. Equal funding and more.

Wouldn't it be great if this was a catalyst for that? My wife always hated that the boys would go rappelling and they'd be hand tying quilts or something when she was a kid.

[LA Ute]

I agree with this, if you are doing scouts right it will be a non-factor.

My wife and I talked about this though and both loved the thought of establishing an equal program for both young men and young women... Similar activities like camping and hiking and all the scout stuff. Equal funding and more.

Wouldn't it be great if this was a catalyst for that? My wife always hated that the boys would go rappelling and they'd be hand tying quilts or something when she was a kid.

Yes, it could be a very nice thing for both the YW and YM. Scouting does cause a lot of chafing because not every boy is cut out for it.

[LA Ute]

Now I see why the church is taking hard line. I saw this (http://m.deseretnews.com/article/765678242/Boy-Scout-board-approves-end-to-blanket-ban-on-gay-adults.html):


Stuart Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group Lambda Legal, questioned whether the BSA's new policy to let church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable.

"There will be a period of time where they'll have some legal protection," Upton said. "But that doesn't mean the lawsuits won't keep coming. ... They will become increasingly marginalized from the direction society is going."

I'm calling it: Game, set, match. The church will leave Scouting rather than stick around and be a punching bag in such lawsuits. It's the end of an era. Too bad.

[SeattleUte]

Now I see why the church is taking hard line. I saw this (http://m.deseretnews.com/article/765678242/Boy-Scout-board-approves-end-to-blanket-ban-on-gay-adults.html):



I'm calling it: Game, set, match. The church will leave Scouting rather than stick around and be a punching bag in such lawsuits. It's the end of an era. Too bad.

This is why the LDS Church may quit, not because LDS theology is that homosexuality is abhorrent? That's not what statements from the LDS Church themselves have been. Where is this subtext you see in the LDS Church statements on this subject?

In any event, surely you know enough about con law to realize that no court will require the LDS church to give callings to homosexuals (given its professed theology that abhors homosexuality). Did any court force the LDS church to admit blacks to the priesthood or the temple? How many of these frivolous lawsuits could there be about this? Considering such concepts as precedent, stare decisis, collateral estoppel, etc.?

If you read the quote the ultimate point was that religious groups that hate gays will be marginalized socially.

[DrumNFeather]

12 year old me could not be more thrilled that the church may no longer be involved with scouting. 35 year old me with three daughters doesn't care much, though I love Rocker's suggestion and think that would be just a massive step forward for the youth programs in the church.

[LA Ute]

This is why the LDS Church may quit, not because LDS theology is that homosexuality is abhorrent? That's not what statements from the LDS Church themselves have been. Where is this subtext you see in the LDS Church statements on this subject?

In any event, surely you know enough about con law to realize that no court will require the LDS church to give callings to homosexuals (given its professed theology that abhors homosexuality). Did any court force the LDS church to admit blacks to the priesthood or the temple? How many of these frivolous lawsuits could there be about this? Considering such concepts as precedent, stare decisis, collateral estoppel, etc.?

If you read the quote the ultimate point was that religious groups that hate gays will be marginalized socially.

They will sue the BSA and its local councils, not the church. The church will still be involved in the lawsuit. There will be boycotts and unfavorable press. Cities will refuse to allow religion-sponsored troops to use their parks for campouts, just as they have been doing up to now for the entire BSA. It will be a mess. Why would the church subject itself to all that?


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[SeattleUte]

They will sue the BSA and its local councils, not the church. The church will still be involved in the lawsuit. There will be boycotts and unfavorable press. Cities will refuse to allow religion-sponsored troops to use their parks for campouts, just as they have been doing up to now for the entire BSA. It will be a mess. Why would the church subject itself to all that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know why you won't accept the Church's own statements about why it may leave at face value. As you note, these problems have been there for a while now, and the LDS Church wasn't going to leave because of them.

[SeattleUte]

Boy Scouts was great for me, but it was always the non-scouting parts of it that worked the best. The non-organized scout camps, the non-merit badge activities. Just camping, hiking, biking, and canoeing. It was also always clear to me that the LDS Church was run (and staffed) 1,000 better than the BSA. I never had an encounter like Rocker's (thank goodness), but there were always lots of crazies (most of them well-intentioned) around the official stuff. I never felt good about the BSA donations, and I never made one. I would like a clean divorce from BSA, but I really hope the youth programs continue to include a lot of outdoor stuff.

You want a nice clean divorce because the LDS Church wants to exclude gay scoutmasters. So the BSA is leaving the LDS Church behind in Victorian 19th century America. That's pretty rich.

[SeattleUte]

I did not say that. I want a split because I don't like working with the BSA. It has always seemed a one sided relationship to me. We supply the money and quality leadership, and they supply strange old guys at camp who yell at you for wearing sandals. They also supply merit badges which have deteriorated in value over the years to the point that they are given out like candy on Halloween.

The new scouting for urbans is martial arts. Belts instead of merit badges--and girls are welcome.

[U-Ute]

If the church stops associated with the BSA, scouting in Utah as we know it will cease to exist.

The only reason anyone does scouting in Utah is because it is affiliated with the church. Not to mention all of the logistics that are handled in sunday classes since there is a high percentage of overlap in participants of both.

[Diehard Ute]

I did not say that. I want a split because I don't like working with the BSA. It has always seemed a one sided relationship to me. We supply the money and quality leadership, and they supply strange old guys at camp who yell at you for wearing sandals. They also supply merit badges which have deteriorated in value over the years to the point that they are given out like candy on Halloween.

This is kind of funny. The LDS church sponsored troops are the ones notorious for handing out things like candy.



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[LA Ute]

Peggy is on the story:

If Mormons leave Scouting, BSA will feel it — in its wallet (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2778130-155/if-mormons-leave-scouting-bsa-will?fullpage=1)

[NorthwestUteFan]

Peggy is on the story:

If Mormons leave Scouting, BSA will feel it — in its wallet (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2778130-155/if-mormons-leave-scouting-bsa-will?fullpage=1)

1) Mormon kids and adults who want to participate in Scouting will simply join other troops. They will not all leave Scouting. Those who are more interested in Scouting will likely have a better experience in a different setting.

2) Mormon scout troops have a National Brand, and that is as a Merit Badge and Rank Advancement mill. The leaders have a National Brand as jackholes who wear BYU shirts on campouts, let the scouts run wild without following Leave No Trace protocol, and toppling millions of years old hoodoos in National Monuments.

[DrumNFeather]

1) The scout camps are the merit badge mill. All troops take advantage, not only LDS troops.

2) I don't think LDS scout leaders in general are a problem. Most of them are very good.

When you make it a calling, you tend to get a mixed bag of great and terrible. As a scout leader, I would fall under the terrible category, but I accepted the assignment because, you know, that's what we're taught to do.

[LA Ute]

I don't think LDS scout leaders in general are a problem. Most of them are very good.

I think they try hard. Our leaders are one of the "warts" on LDS Scouting, however. The biggest problem is that we don't leave them in the calling long enough. That creates continuity problems and hampers their effectiveness.

[Diehard Ute]

Don't you think such a position should be strictly voluntary?

I have issues forcing people into positions of leadership involving kids. That's not something everyone is suited to, and is something some people internally know they should avoid.


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[LA Ute]

Don't you think such a position should be strictly voluntary?

I have issues forcing people into positions of leadership involving kids. That's not something everyone is suited to, and is something some people internally know they should avoid.

A voluntary position might be better but that doesn't work in the LDS church. BTW, people do turn down callings. Scoutmaster is probably the most turned-down calling of them all. Which is OK with me -- having a Scoutmaster who didn't want the assignment would be a nightmare for both the boys and him. So I doubt there are many LDS s scoutmasters who are forced to do it.

[Rocker Ute]

Don't you think such a position should be strictly voluntary?

I have issues forcing people into positions of leadership involving kids. That's not something everyone is suited to, and is something some people internally know they should avoid.


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Although I tend to agree that non-LDS troops benefit from having adults there who want to be there, I would say on the LDS front it is a mixed bag for sure. You get some really great ones and some really poor ones. My dad was an avid scouter, long time scout master, Silver Beaver recipient, etc. He runs into his scouts, long since grown and with scouts of their own now. It was one of his favorite church assignments. However, the scouting of his day and scouting today are very different things. And the things he hated about scouting then are the same things that are problematic today and it revolves around the bureaucracy, the abundant profits for the BSA and not evolving with the times well (this is not in regards to the Gay Scoutmaster issue, it is with evolving with modern outdoorsmanship and the program in general). Outlandish administrative salaries and frankly the program has a significant barrier to entry for poor kids. Merit badge mills are not exclusive to LDS culture, and the criteria to get your Eagle Scout has been diminished pretty dramatically too. (A number of years ago the BSA volunteered to help build the Great Western Trail that comes through Utah. They said that it would count as an Eagle Scout project if you went and volunteered a day to help build the trail... that isn't an Eagle Project). There are a lot of people in Scouting who are using it as a replacement for military service or something and it just doesn't mesh well. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who grew up in Scouting (the right way I might add), is an Eagle Scout, has gone to the national jamboree, worked at various scout camps and organizations and has been a scoutmaster himself, so this isn't a 'scouting made me sad and now it is making my little boy sad' sort of an account.

The original principals and what scouting should be about is awesome, and it is always centered around the kids. Get to go and do amazing and fun things outdoors that along the way help you to be a better and more well-rounded person, a responsible person and a good citizen? What isn't to like about that? But I feel the BSA has strayed from that in a big way.

LDS involvement or not, the BSA needs to undergo some significant changes before it can get my support again. It needs to drastically reduce its bureaucracy and overhead and get the focus back on the kids.

On that note, a great story in my opinion. Our local troop had amassed a ton of money in an account, overseen by the uber-scouters and fiercely protected. A new scoutmaster came in, saw the account and said, "I am taking the kids to the best scout camp in the nation... and he did and drained the account. They had over ten thousand dollars in the account, the uber-scouters were planning on buying canoes or something and had an absolute fit. That guy did a hell of a job too.

Oh, on another note, I finally found a practical application for getting your Eagle Scout in adult life. You get an automatic rank advancement to Private First Class (which is accompanied with more pay) in the military when you enlist if you are an eagle scout.

[Rocker Ute]

Am I the only one who has encountered crazy after crazy among those who spend their lives in the BSA? I'll take our called scoutmasters. The fact that they are only in for a relatively short time is a good thing in many ways.

I already felt lucky, but I'm beginning to feel truly blessed that I had such great scout leaders growing up. I guess it's not as common as I thought. Maybe I am a lucky charm because the scout leaders in all the places I've lived have been very good.

No you absolutely are not the only one who has encountered crazies in the upper echelons. That is where my real problem lies actually. We just came off a bad scout master, have a great one right now. As LA mentioned, Scoutmaster has to be the number one turned down calling.

[UtahsMrSports]

The LDS church severing ties may be the wake up call that the BSA needs to get back on track. They will feel it, no doubt about it.

Assuming this happens, what percentage of LDS youth would go join another troop? Im not even sure that it would be one percent.

[Dwight Schr-Ute]

The LDS church severing ties may be the wake up call that the BSA needs to get back on track. They will feel it, no doubt about it.

Assuming this happens, what percentage of LDS youth would go join another troop? Im not even sure that it would be one percent.

As a strictly hetero organization? That Norman Rockwell cover has expired. And should stay that way.

[Rocker Ute]

The LDS church severing ties may be the wake up call that the BSA needs to get back on track. They will feel it, no doubt about it.

Assuming this happens, what percentage of LDS youth would go join another troop? Im not even sure that it would be one percent.

If the church has some sort of replacement program in mind, 1%. If they just say, "We aren't doing Scouting anymore." I'd say 5-10% might go and do it on their own.

[UtahsMrSports]

As a strictly hetero organization? That Norman Rockwell cover has expired. And should stay that way.

Not at all what I meant. Im talking about the things Rocker was saying, the bureaucracy.

[mUUser]

When you make it a calling, you tend to get a mixed bag of great and terrible. As a scout leader, I would fall under the terrible category, but I accepted the assignment because, you know, that's what we're taught to do.

I'll bet I was 10X worse than you. After 2 months I told 'em to call someone else. I suck. Scouts suck. Have no interest or passion. They called another sucker, and everyone was happy for the time being.

[DrumNFeather]

I'll bet I was 10X worse than you. After 2 months I told 'em to call someone else. I suck. Scouts suck. Have no interest or passion. They called another sucker, and everyone was happy for the time being.

Haha. Luckily I was only in with the 11 year old scouts. "How do you tie this knot?" "What does your book say...? Do that"

[mUUser]

Haha. Luckily I was only in with the 11 year old scouts. "How do you tie this knot?" "What does your book say...? Do that"


Scoutmaster is meeting after meeting, roundtable after roundtable.

If I was called as the baseball manager of the church or something -- then fine -- but ain't no way I was putting that kind of time into scouting.

[LA Ute]

I have the Silver Beaver award, was on the Executive Committee of my BSA council's board, am Wood Badge-trained, have been a Scoutmaster, yada yada yada.

Being Scoutmaster was great because I was excited about it (I am not an outdoorsy kind of guy but I learned), we had good kids, and good parents. I loved it, my Scouts loved it, my sons were in the troop with me, and I'll have those relationships and memories forever. I think success in LDS Scouting is 90% based on the scoutmaster's attitude.

I think done right, Scouting is the greatest youth program in the world. It's done right maybe 50% of the time, IMO.

I hated, hated, hated being involved at the council level. That's where you find the Scouting lifers, who make it one of the highest priorities in their lives and treat you like trash if you don't see it the same way. They're all about raising money and are always pushing for more $$ from LDS units, who produced 40% of our council's Friends of Scouting revenues. That was the only reason they tolerated LDS units; other than our $$, we were not sufficiently serious about Scouting.

I made it to roundtable only once. (It was held in our LDS building, a block from my house.) That's where the Scouting nuts hang out, and I didn't have the time for them.

So I love Scouting for what it can be, am not so gung-ho on the BSA. If the LDS church leaves I'll feel sad and nostalgic but will understand. It seem like maybe it's time now to leave.

[mUUser]

......I think done right, Scouting is the greatest youth program in the world.....

Little League......a million times greater.

[Scratch]

I went to roundtable once, and that was enough. You know it's bad when you're in a large group of people and the Mormons are by far the coolest people there.

[Rocker Ute]

I hated, hated, hated being involved at the council level. That's where you find the Scouting lifers, who make it one of the highest priorities in their lives and treat you like trash if you don't see it the same way. They're all about raising money and are always pushing for more $$ from LDS units, who produced 40% of our council's Friends of Scouting revenues. That was the only reason they tolerated LDS units; other than our $$, we were not sufficiently serious about Scouting.

I made it to roundtable only once. (It was held in our LDS building, a block from my house.) That's where the Scouting nuts hang out, and I didn't have the time for them.



Everything you said is spot on, but this above in particular. When I became a Scoutmaster I had the added benefit of having a number of scouting lifers who lived in my ward and oversaw everything I did. I was forced to go to the roundtables and everything imaginable because they were all over me all the time. I started chatting with my dad about some of the people and he would say, "I can't believe they are still there!" This was 30 years after he was out of Scouting.

These same lifers ultimately drove me out of doing it, despite really loving working with the kids. When I started there was about 4 church kids who came, with 20 kids on my list of potential scouts. We spent a lot of time tracking down the other kids and convincing them to come and we'd make it fun and worthwhile. I told them we'd focus more on fun, learning the principles and lessons behind scouting and mix in the requirements so they could advance. But we weren't going to push kids through hoops to get merit badges and rank advancements and we wouldn't be doing a lot of uniform inspections.

We eventually got all 20 kids out and participating. One day the local lifer comes into a troop activity and blows a gasket in front of the kids. "How come none of you are wearing your uniforms, this is a Scout meeting isn't it?!!! You are Boy Scouts aren't you!!!" The kids were kind of scared and confused just stood there looking puzzled. I grabbed him and said, "Let's talk about this outside." So we get outside and he goes nuts on me... "What kind of leader are you? If they aren't in their uniform they should be sent home, and you need to teach them to respect being a Boy Scout..." On and on it went.

Finally I shouted at him, "LOOK AROUND YOU! EVERY SINGLE KID IS HERE! FOR THE FIRST TIME THEY ARE ALL HERE AND LEARNING AND HAVING FUN! YOU CAN TAKE YOUR UNIFORMS AND SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS OR I'LL SHOVE THEM UP THERE FOR YOU! I'LL TAKE THESE KIDS BEING HERE OVER THEM WEARING THEIR UNIFORMS!" He scuttled off to his hole, because most people only know how to be passive-aggressive and don't know how to react with straight aggressiveness.

I came back in and the kids and the other leader were all sitting there wide-eyed, they had heard every word. I said something like, "Well I guess you guys know where I stand on wearing your uniforms... you shouldn't talk to people like I just did, so sorry..." And then continued on. For about two weeks after I had parents coming and congratulating me on the interaction.

He proceeded to make my life a living hell from that point on. I stuck with it until the last kid in that core of 20 turned 14 and then I resigned.

[Rocker Ute]

I should note that when I get mad like I did with him, I turn beet red, sweat and my voice wavers. It doesn't happen often but when it does, it is quite a display. :D

[LA Ute]

I should note that when I get mad like I did with him, I turn beet red, sweat and my voice wavers. It doesn't happen often but when it does, it is quite a display. :D

Is there a Youtube of this?

[LA Ute]

I had kind of a middle ground approach to uniforms. I bought our troop their own neckerchiefs, showing their troop name and location, so they could have some troop pride when they wore them together (e.g., courts of honor, at camp when wearing "A" uniforms). If they all wore a uniform shirt to troop meeting -- even if it was unbuttoned and worn on top of a t-shirt -- they all got candy bars or milkshakes, so I never had to hassle anyone for not wearing a shirt -- there was peer pressure. As further evidence of my non-hardassery, we had a few extra shirts in the scout room closet for guys who forgot theirs. I never asked for Scout pants, socks, or all that stuff. (Church policy forbids making families spend money on such things, which is one reason "real" Scouters look down on us.) For courts of honor I asked the parents to put their boys in khaki pants if they had them so we all looked sharp together.

One of my sons (who posts here) went to the National Jamboree and loved it. He had to wear the full uniform on that trip and I must admit he looked pretty sharp.

[LA Ute]

Nate Oman on why the church issued its press release:

http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2015/07/my-theory-of-the-churchs-statement-on-the-change-in-bsa-policy/

He's saying the same thing I was saying yesterday. The comments are interesting and often insightful. I that in California the Unruh Civil Rights Act might provide a basis for suing the BSA, not the church. But I haven't dug into that theory. The Act is very broad in its protections, which include sexual orientation. But apart from the legal viability of a claim against the BSA or the church, the comments suggesting that the church might just decide the BSA is not worth the trouble are probably right.

I'd love to know the story behind the press release and the reasons why the church seems to feel double crossed by the BSA. The idea that the BSA doesn't respect the church rings true to me. I was on our local BSA council's executive board for about 10 years and it was pretty clear that most of those guys roll their eyes at LDS Scouting (which is understandable, I must admit) and that the only thing they cared about was our Friends of Scouting donations, which represented 1/3 of our council's annual budget. At the council level Scouting is not pretty and is all about fundraising and, in our case, lots of egos. I hated it.

Anyway, I wish it were not so but it looks like the church and the BSA are headed for a divorce. As always there will be two sides to the story. Or maybe five or six.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[#1 Utefan]

As a strictly hetero organization? That Norman Rockwell cover has expired. And should stay that way.

If only it were that simple.

[NorthwestUteFan]

As a strictly hetero organization? That Norman Rockwell cover has expired. And should stay that way.

Come on. What is more hetero than wearing an ascot and sleeping in a tent with another man?

[tooblue]

Come on. What is more hetero than wearing an ascot and sleeping in a tent with another man?

One man gently placing his hands under another mans but, up against his scrotum to receive a ball? Two men, sweaty and all pumped up grappling with one another using arm and leg holds inside a cage?

[UtahsMrSports]

Talked to someone who has some inside knowledge here today and this is what I got, you can take it however you want, means little to me........

-The BSA was not expecting such a strong response from the LDS church and they are sweating more than they are letting on.
-Allowing openly gay scoutmasters is but a piece of the puzzle. The Church's main complaint is the fact that the vote for this was taken while many of the church leaders who would have had a say in it were gone, despite requests from the church to wait until they could participate. Also, the BSA continues to double back on their word to the Church. Both of these have shattered the relationship of trust that used to exist.
-Apparently, it is well known within the scouting community that there are other Christian faiths (he declined to name any, only saying it was a fairly significant number) who were talked into staying with the BSA by the LDS leaders when the announcement that openly gay youths could participate came down. These other faiths are waiting for the word from the LDS church and will follow suit.
-(didn't need an insider source to know this, but it was touched on). The BSA is in an impossible situation here. If they listen to their sponsors, a very large chunk of their membership leaves. If they listen to their members, then their sponsors go away.

[LA Ute]

NPR:

Mormons Face A Painful Loss If The Church Severs Boy Scout Ties (http://www.npr.org/2015/08/02/428600410/mormons-face-a-painful-loss-if-the-church-severs-boy-scout-ties?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150802)

Be sure to read the comments.

[LA Ute]

Interesting comments.

Thus saith Mormon PR boss: We don’t go ‘rogue’ (http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2815375-155/thus-saith-mormon-pr-boss-we?fullpage=1)

[UtahsMrSports]

Church staying with scouting......per a press release today.

[LA Ute]

Church staying with scouting......per a press release today.

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865635368/LDS-Church-will-continue-Boy-Scout-program.html