Happy for Jim Boylen?

[UtahsMrSports]

I was watching the Pacers-Heat game last night and a few times, the camera showed former Runnin Ute coach Jim Boylen giving instruction to the Pacers.

I wonder how Ute fans feel about him now. Are we cheering for him? Are we rooting against him? Are we apathetic?

To me, I am glad he is seeing success with the Pacers. He was enthusiastic and committed to our program. He made some mistakes and ultimately, I think, showed that he was not a head coach. However, I think he is a PHENOMENAL assistant. Nothing wrong with that, thats just some guys thing. So, I can safely say that I am cheering for him.

Thoughts?

[Mormon Red Death]

I was watching the Pacers-Heat game last night and a few times, the camera showed former Runnin Ute coach Jim Boylen giving instruction to the Pacers.

I wonder how Ute fans feel about him now. Are we cheering for him? Are we rooting against him? Are we apathetic?

To me, I am glad he is seeing success with the Pacers. He was enthusiastic and committed to our program. He made some mistakes and ultimately, I think, showed that he was not a head coach. However, I think he is a PHENOMENAL assistant. Nothing wrong with that, thats just some guys thing. So, I can safely say that I am cheering for him.

Thoughts?

apathetic...

[LA Ute]

I was watching the Pacers-Heat game last night and a few times, the camera showed former Runnin Ute coach Jim Boylen giving instruction to the Pacers.

I wonder how Ute fans feel about him now. Are we cheering for him? Are we rooting against him? Are we apathetic?

To me, I am glad he is seeing success with the Pacers. He was enthusiastic and committed to our program. He made some mistakes and ultimately, I think, showed that he was not a head coach. However, I think he is a PHENOMENAL assistant. Nothing wrong with that, thats just some guys thing. So, I can safely say that I am cheering for him.

Thoughts?

He's a good man and I wish him well. I agree he is talented and knowledgeable and has a lot to offer. Honestly, however, I am sorry he ever became Utah's head coach.

[FountainOfUte]

I'm happy for him. He's a great guy and could be a great head coach. He put his heart and soul into the Utah job.

It takes more than coaching ability to turn a program around. It also takes luck. Jim has the ability, but he didn't have the luck. 1-2 key recruits, 1-2 key games - if a couple of big things had gone his way, he'd still be in SLC, and we'd all be singing his praises. A coaching situation like ours is a chaotic system - very sensitive to initial conditions, parameters, and small variations. I guess lots of careers are like that.

I agree. He'll be a HC again. If you're a coach in D1 college or the NBA then you must have "it" to some degree. Maybe things didn't work out for Boylen or Giac at the U, but I think they can find D1 gigs again and maybe this time it will take.

Man, I really wanted things to work out for Boylen. He was a good guy trying (and to a large extent doing) the right thing, but it just didn't take. In many ways, I do think luck was a factor. He's not a dummy. He's not lazy. It just didn't work that time at the U.

Good luck to Coach Boylen going forward.

[SeattleUte]

Don't mention that name. For me, "Jim Boylen" is like "cleaning woman" in "Deadmen Don't Wear Plaid". I go berserk.

[UtahsMrSports]

I'm happy for him. He's a great guy and could be a great head coach. He put his heart and soul into the Utah job.

It takes more than coaching ability to turn a program around. It also takes luck. Jim has the ability, but he didn't have the luck. 1-2 key recruits, 1-2 key games - if a couple of big things had gone his way, he'd still be in SLC, and we'd all be singing his praises. A coaching situation like ours is a chaotic system - very sensitive to initial conditions, parameters, and small variations. I guess lots of careers are like that.

Good points, although I have to disagree on his ability to be a great coach. How many of our players were significantly improved after Boylen? Luka Drca and Kim Tillie had three years with him and were either of them improved (an obvious counter example is Luke Nevill, but there are many more examples)? Did he run an offense that allowed the team to succeed? No. The numbers are almost laughably bad in these areas. In his final season we had ONE player who averaged more than 1.2 assists per game. One of the excuses that Boylen gets from supporters was that he lost so much of the roster after the MWC title team in 2009. My counter argument would be: Where was the pipeline? That was year 3 for him. He should have had more guys ready to step in and carry the load.

To me, I think Jim demonstrated that being a head coach was too much for him. Too many things not attended too. IMO, Jim has shown that he is at his best when he has only a few responsibilities and can focus on those.

[Two Utes]

Good points, although I have to disagree on his ability to be a great coach. How many of our players were significantly improved after Boylen? Luka Drca and Kim Tillie had three years with him and were either of them improved (an obvious counter example is Luke Nevill, but there are many more examples)? Did he run an offense that allowed the team to succeed? No. The numbers are almost laughably bad in these areas. In his final season we had ONE player who averaged more than 1.2 assists per game. One of the excuses that Boylen gets from supporters was that he lost so much of the roster after the MWC title team in 2009. My counter argument would be: Where was the pipeline? That was year 3 for him. He should have had more guys ready to step in and carry the load.

To me, I think Jim demonstrated that being a head coach was too much for him. Too many things not attended too. IMO, Jim has shown that he is at his best when he has only a few responsibilities and can focus on those.

I don't think he was a good head coach. He's a very good assistant. When all is said and done, looking back Giac was better and that's saying something.

[UBlender]

I like Boylen and am glad to see him doing well. Still, I think there was a lot more than luck to his downfall. He won with holdovers from Giac but when it came time to build his own roster....well, let's just say it didn't go so well.

Also, I don't relish the idea that so many Ute fans are still clinging to Boylen and will use any success by Jim or failure by Larry (no matter how small) as evidence that Boylen should have never been let go.

[Rocker Ute]

I wish him well wherever he goes, but I have to admit that his Pacer's bio omitting his time here at the U really bothers me. So if he isn't going to acknowledge it for even his own players, then why should I acknowledge him?

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/jim_boylen/index.html?nav=page

The other thing, and I think that what two utes alluded to above, is that Boylen was just not a good coach. We hammer Kodiak for his turnover, but Boylen lost his two 'star' players (almost 3 with Drca not coming back, not to mention the other minor players who bolted too) in the middle of his time here. I went to a few practices and things were just a disaster. Not to mention his recruiting, and connection with the local programs and players was abysmal. Two Utes might be able to speak about that more than most too.

So considering the state he left the program, I consider myself more of a Boylen Well-Wisher, in that I don't wish him any specific harm.

[UtahsMrSports]

I like Boylen and am glad to see him doing well. Still, I think there was a lot more than luck to his downfall. He won with holdovers from Giac but when it came time to build his own roster....well, let's just say it didn't go so well.

Also, I don't relish the idea that so many Ute fans are still clinging to Boylen and will use any success by Jim or failure by Larry (no matter how small) as evidence that Boylen should have never been let go.

Fortunately, the # in that group is getting lower everyday.

[SoCalPat]

I was watching the Pacers-Heat game last night and a few times, the camera showed former Runnin Ute coach Jim Boylen giving instruction to the Pacers.

I wonder how Ute fans feel about him now. Are we cheering for him? Are we rooting against him? Are we apathetic?

To me, I am glad he is seeing success with the Pacers. He was enthusiastic and committed to our program. He made some mistakes and ultimately, I think, showed that he was not a head coach. However, I think he is a PHENOMENAL assistant. Nothing wrong with that, thats just some guys thing. So, I can safely say that I am cheering for him.

Thoughts?

I'm rooting for the Heat, but seeing the Pacers and Jimmy win provides a nice consolation prize of sorts. I would definitely root for the Pacers against the Spurs.

Jimmy had some bad luck in recruiting -- I remain convinced that our sneaker deal is a huge obstacle in that arena -- and couldn't win consistently at home. The latter especially cannot be justified and it was my biggest complaint in demanding a change. At the same time, he was partially done in by some horrible advice (someone or a group in the athletic department pushed for Jimmy to "grab the mike" far more than he should have, turning him into a sideshow) and idiotic belilefs (don't recruit so many foreigners like our last coach did).

Everyone, from Jimmy to the fans, deserved a better fate than what was dealt him during his four years here.

[SoCalPat]

Good points, although I have to disagree on his ability to be a great coach. How many of our players were significantly improved after Boylen? Luka Drca and Kim Tillie had three years with him and were either of them improved (an obvious counter example is Luke Nevill, but there are many more examples)?

Lawrence Borha, Shaun Green, Tyler Kepkay all had senior seasons that were far superior to their junior years under Boylen, when he first inherited them.

[SoCalPat]

Do you really hear comments along those lines? I haven't heard anything like that for a while. I usually feel like I'm the last of the Boylen apologists. And even I knew that he had to go.

I do agree with SoCal, 1-2 lucky breaks with recruiting and he would still be here. That's how it is for coaches. There is a parallel universe where Coach K misses a break or two in the early years, and Duke fires him.

It says a lot about how our program has floundered for nearly a decade that the same holds true for Giacoletti. The last real game-changing break we got in recruiting was when Giacoletti got Bogut to come back for his sophomore year.

[UtahsMrSports]

Lawrence Borha, Shaun Green, Tyler Kepkay all had senior seasons that were far superior to their junior years under Boylen, when he first inherited them.


Ill give you bohra. No way on Green or Kepkay. Come on, Pat.

[Applejack]

Do you really hear comments along those lines? I haven't heard anything like that for a while. I usually feel like I'm the last of the Boylen apologists. And even I knew that he had to go.

I do agree with SoCal, 1-2 lucky breaks with recruiting and he would still be here. That's how it is for coaches. There is a parallel universe where Coach K misses a break or two in the early years, and Duke fires him.

Boylen had some bad luck, but he couldn't coach a lick. You can be a great recruiter and still have bad recruiting classes - you can't be a good coach and repeatedly run Jiggy 1-1. Boylen is the worst coach (as in game prep/scheme) that Utah has had since Jimmy Fassel was told that he needed to field 11 men for defense.

Giacolletti should have sent Boylen a gift basket for making him look semi-competent.

[SoCalPat]

Ill give you bohra. No way on Green or Kepkay. Come on, Pat.

Well, in fairness, Green's best season statistically came in his sophomore year, under Giac. And while he did improve statistically in many areas under Boylen, the bottom line is he already showed he could be a pretty dynamic scorer and rebounder. So to say Green improved under Boylen really isn't telling the whole story. I'll give you that one.

Kepkay bumped his scoring from about 7.5 to nearly 11 per game. He never started a game but was third in minutes, and averaged almost 7 more MPG than Drca. His decision making was atrocious as a junior, but immensely better as a senior. And go back to the OT game against BYU, when Tyler made Jimmer look like a turnstile. He was also our best player in the NCAA tournament loss to Arizona.

Kepkay improved significantly between his junior and senior years -- that's really not up for debate. How much of it was due to Jimmy's influence, or Kepkay getting fully acclimated to D-1 ball? That's a fair question and I couldn't disagree with either side taken. It was probably a little of both.

[UtahsMrSports]

Well, in fairness, Green's best season statistically came in his sophomore year, under Giac. And while he did improve statistically in many areas under Boylen, the bottom line is he already showed he could be a pretty dynamic scorer and rebounder. So to say Green improved under Boylen really isn't telling the whole story. I'll give you that one.

Kepkay bumped his scoring from about 7.5 to nearly 11 per game. He never started a game but was third in minutes, and averaged almost 7 more MPG than Drca. His decision making was atrocious as a junior, but immensely better as a senior. And go back to the OT game against BYU, when Tyler made Jimmer look like a turnstile. He was also our best player in the NCAA tournament loss to Arizona.

Kepkay improved significantly between his junior and senior years -- that's really not up for debate. How much of it was due to Jimmy's influence, or Kepkay getting fully acclimated to D-1 ball? That's a fair question and I couldn't disagree with either side taken. It was probably a little of both.

All right, fair enough.

[Diehard Ute]

I'm rooting for the Heat, but seeing the Pacers and Jimmy win provides a nice consolation prize of sorts. I would definitely root for the Pacers against the Spurs.

Jimmy had some bad luck in recruiting -- I remain convinced that our sneaker deal is a huge obstacle in that arena -- and couldn't win consistently at home. The latter especially cannot be justified and it was my biggest complaint in demanding a change. At the same time, he was partially done in by some horrible advice (someone or a group in the athletic department pushed for Jimmy to "grab the mike" far more than he should have, turning him into a sideshow) and idiotic belilefs (don't recruit so many foreigners like our last coach did).

Everyone, from Jimmy to the fans, deserved a better fate than what was dealt him during his four years here.

You mean Boylen's deal with Adidas?

He signed with Adidas in 2007, Utah didn't switch Basketball to Under Armour until 2011 when he was fired....

[SoCalPat]

You mean Boylen's deal with Adidas?

He signed with Adidas in 2007, Utah didn't switch Basketball to Under Armour until 2011 when he was fired....

Well then my argument for Jimmy vis-a-vis recruiting doesn't hold water. I thought the UA deal was signed under Giac, and that it covered all sports immediately. I still maintain the UA deal is horrible for the hoops program -- they are a long ways from being an influential player in AAU/prep basketball.

[Diehard Ute]

Well then my argument for Jimmy vis-a-vis recruiting doesn't hold water. I thought the UA deal was signed under Giac, and that it covered all sports immediately. I still maintain the UA deal is horrible for the hoops program -- they are a long ways from being an influential player in AAU/prep basketball.

Nope, switch was April 2011, Boylen switched the team to Adidas.

And I guess you have to balance recruiting and money.

I know for the women's team the switch from Nike to UA was a +$90,000 a year deal...

[UBlender]

Do you really hear comments along those lines? I haven't heard anything like that for a while. I usually feel like I'm the last of the Boylen apologists. And even I knew that he had to go.

I do agree with SoCal, 1-2 lucky breaks with recruiting and he would still be here. That's how it is for coaches. There is a parallel universe where Coach K misses a break or two in the early years, and Duke fires him.

I'll give you the fact that he had some bad breaks in recruiting, but even when the opportunities were there he still did many things that didn't help himself. I mean, CJ Wilcox slipping out to UW (under possibly slimy circumstances) at the last minute is probably bad luck (it is possible that Jim did something to botch the recruiting but we don't know that, so I'll go with luck on this one) as is the gamble on the talented but troubled Marshall Henderson not paying off. But when you combine those instances of bad luck with highly questionable decisions like taking Preston Guiot over Stephen "Steve Holt!" Holt (solid PG for St Mary's--much better than Guiot) and offering guys like DiMaria and Kupets scholarships....well, that's where you can't chalk it all up to luck. Those decisions were highly suspect at the time and they proved to be very poor choices given hindsight. If he had even been able to recruit solidly average MWC players instead of some of those dregs he'd have been in much better position to survive when some of the luck went bad on guys like Henderson.

The other big problem he had that wasn't luck was his general management of his roster and keeping his players in line. As his last couple of teams bogged down into this terrible ISO offense we would constantly hear that they really did practice actual sets and plays--I believe that to be true but Jim just didn't hold his players accountable for selfish play. As things went south his players became more and more selfish (on and off the court) and he let the situation get way too toxic before dealing with it. The Three Guard Axis of Hatred in his second to last season of Drca, Brown and Henderson (who you could just tell from watching them play together and interact did not like each other one bit) is a microcosm of Boylen's downfall. He let those guys fight over the ball and go one-on-five all season long and then did run Henderson and Brown off after the season but the damage had long since been done. He turned around and filled the gaps with Clyburn, Jiggy, Kupets and DiMaria. Clyburn and Jiggy were really talented but the others stunk. Clyburn was mostly a good soldier and a better player than most Ute fans remember. Jiggy liked to go one-on-five all the time and there was no accountability for it. There were some other bad breaks that season, but Jiggy's unrestricted selfish play was a big part of what submarined that team.

[Rocker Ute]

Clyburn was mostly a good soldier and a better player than most Ute fans remember. Jiggy liked to go one-on-five all the time and there was no accountability for it. There were some other bad breaks that season, but Jiggy's unrestricted selfish play was a big part of what submarined that team.

Clyburn wasn't only a good get, he was a great recruit but as you mentioned was forced to play the role of good soldier. The one on five stuff you mentioned harmed him immeasurably and had he been in a structured offense he would have done way more damage than he did. This may be weird to say, but strangely enough I think that Clyburn would have thrived in Kodiak's style of play/coaching, particularly when you have 4 guys working to get you a shot. Wouldn't this year have been interesting had Kodiak said, "Yeah, I'll redshirt you this year and let you play next" as Clyburn supposedly wanted?

The thing is, Boylen's style of play, which many say didn't exist, can and does work, but it is a very high risk, high reward sort of system. Pat's Shocker's this year were doing a lot of the same Boylen type of stuff, and Pat and I had our barbs back and forth about it, but they proved how it can be the high reward system. You need to have the right personnel on your team which they did.

So there is a truthful notion that Boylen was just 1.5 recruits away from success. The problem is, Utah fans have no patience for that style of play at all. Going back to the Wich St battle Pat and I had, and as proof of that statement... people absolutely GROANED at ESA at their style of play. Granted their first game was awful for both teams. But against the Zags people were all saying, "Gonzaga can come back, they can't possibly sustain this..."

Interestingly, that style of play thrives in the NBA, and is also a big part of why I don't watch the NBA.

But the point is, Boylen didn't get those 1.5 players to make it over the top, and was hemorrhaging other players too... and that all falls on him.

[mpfunk]

I was watching the Pacers-Heat game last night and a few times, the camera showed former Runnin Ute coach Jim Boylen giving instruction to the Pacers.

I wonder how Ute fans feel about him now. Are we cheering for him? Are we rooting against him? Are we apathetic?

To me, I am glad he is seeing success with the Pacers. He was enthusiastic and committed to our program. He made some mistakes and ultimately, I think, showed that he was not a head coach. However, I think he is a PHENOMENAL assistant. Nothing wrong with that, thats just some guys thing. So, I can safely say that I am cheering for him.

Thoughts?

I would like the Pacers to win. However, I'm not happy for Jim Boylen. The only thing that makes me happy with Boylen is if he gets a raise and saves the Utes some money.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Boylen knows basketball, but couldn't lead. He wouldn't be the first capable assistant that crashed and burned as the head coach. You can either inspire and lead or you can't. In general, it is not a skill that can be learned.

[SoCalPat]

Boylen knows basketball, but couldn't lead. He wouldn't be the first capable assistant that crashed and burned as the head coach. You can either inspire and lead or you can't. In general, it is not a skill that can be learned.

I think the most baffling matter about leadership in this instance is that Jimmy was able to get players that weren't his, yet got them to commit to playing defense, which resulted in a CBI bid in Year 1; the NCAA bid and MWC title in Year 2. Scoring points and coaching offense was not what got Giac fired. Then Jimmy gets his players on board, and he can't get them to run the offense in Years 3-4.

[SoCalPat]

The problem is, Utah fans have no patience for that style of play at all. Going back to the Wich St battle Pat and I had, and as proof of that statement... people absolutely GROANED at ESA at their style of play. Granted their first game was awful for both teams. But against the Zags people were all saying, "Gonzaga can come back, they can't possibly sustain this..."

Interestingly, that style of play thrives in the NBA, and is also a big part of why I don't watch the NBA.

We're almost as bad as BYU fans when it comes to football and styles. Not pointing fingers here, but we have too many armchair whistleblowers who insist there is a "right" way to play basketball (if the groans were really audible at ESA over how WSU played, then my point is cemented). Me, I'm from the Auerbach school of thought, which says, "There are only two great plays: South Pacific and putting the ball in the basket."

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

[Senioritis]

We're almost as bad as BYU fans when it comes to football and styles. Not pointing fingers here, but we have too many armchair whistleblowers who insist there is a "right" way to play basketball (if the groans were really audible at ESA over how WSU played, then my point is cemented). Me, I'm from the Auerbach school of thought, which says, "There are only two great plays: South Pacific and putting the ball in the basket."

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

I'm not sure I agree with what you've written above. While South Pacific is an enduring classic, with forward-thinking themes regarding race and the blending of cultures, it has about six too many reprises of Some Enchanted Evening. Seriously. The last time I saw it, had they cued up the band for one more round, I'd have beat Emile De Becque to death with his own shoes. As my 12 year old son said at the conclusion of the curtain call, "I want to wash that show right out of my hair." So, although the revival at Lincoln Center was pretty righteous, Red Auerbach was wrong about South Pacific. Super duper wrong.

Other than all of the gay stuff, though, your post was right. Super duper right.

[LA Ute]

I'm not sure I agree with what you've written above. While South Pacific is an enduring classic, with forward-thinking themes regarding race and the blending of cultures, it has about six too many reprises of Some Enchanted Evening. Seriously. The last time I saw it, had they cued up the band for one more round, I'd have beat Emile De Becque to death with his own shoes. As my 12 year old son said at the conclusion of the curtain call, "I want to wash that show right out of my hair." So, although the revival at Lincoln Center was pretty righteous, Red Auerbach was wrong about South Pacific. Super duper wrong.

Other than all of the gay stuff, though, your post was right. Super duper right.

Maybe Red should have said "Macbeth."

[FountainOfUte]

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

I think this comes from an underlying assumption among Ute fans that we will never be able to recruit enough of the right players to succeed with the "wrong way." At least in my experience watching the Utes for the last 25 years, I think that's probably a correct assumption; we'll always be more Princeton than Showtime. So when Ute fans bellyache about the right and wrong way to play, I think we're just going by the only thing we've seen be successful in our lifetime on the Hill. If LK or some future coach is able to recruit, play, and win like Tarkanian, I think you'd be surprised at how little comlaining there'd be. I'm not holding my breath. Even UNLV hasn't been able to get back to UNLV ball.

[Senioritis]

Also, methinks the reason that offense didn't click post-Nevill is the chasm of difference between Luke Nevill and The Loud Clapper. Nevill's season efficiency his last year was approaching Saint Van Horn level, while Wash's progress only meant that he became less consistent in his inconsistency.

Luke Nevill is the under appreciated guy from the Dark Days of Ute basketball. He wasn't the next Bogut, which only people with a bone in the middle of their brains thought he would be. So because he wasn't the next Bogut, a bunch of his own fans pretty much hated him, treated him like he was Luka Drca or something. I remember times when he'd receive the ball on the block, and the passionate throngs in the Huntsman Center would react like the crowd on Jerry Springer - standing up in violent protest, waving their arms hysterically, pleading with him to JUST SHOOT THE FREAKING BALL AND WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR!!?!?!!

For some, Nevill became the posterboy for the failures of Giac, the general slide of the program, and they never forgave him. Even during his stellar senior season, people didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he was a sign, and the fans didn't like what the sign said. The best player on the Utes, the go-to guy, wasn't an NBA guy. And there sure wasn't an heir apparent after him. The days of Majerus were officially over, and so was national relevance, regional relevance, local relevance, campus relevance.

Anyway, Nevill was good and he was the absolutely indispensable part of the last good Utah team. There was nobody after him to be the guy. After Boylen lost him, he lost his offense, then he lost his job.

What a pisser.

[Senioritis]

Maybe Red should have said "Macbeth."

HA! Red wouldn't know Macbeth if it grew in his armpit like a skin tag.

[Senioritis]

HA! Red wouldn't know Macbeth if it grew in his armpit like a skin tag.

Which it could.

[FountainOfUte]

Geez. Well said. It's depressing, but dead on. (Nevill, not Macbeth skin tag.)

[SoCalPat]

I think this comes from an underlying assumption among Ute fans that we will never be able to recruit enough of the right players to succeed with the "wrong way." At least in my experience watching the Utes for the last 25 years, I think that's probably a correct assumption; we'll always be more Princeton than Showtime. So when Ute fans bellyache about the right and wrong way to play, I think we're just going by the only thing we've seen be successful in our lifetime on the Hill. If LK or some future coach is able to recruit, play, and win like Tarkanian, I think you'd be surprised at how little comlaining there'd be. I'm not holding my breath. Even UNLV hasn't been able to get back to UNLV ball.

In terms of offensive tempo, BYU today is a lot closer to the Tarkanian/UNLV teams than people give them credit for and their roster is pasty white.

[Rocker Ute]

We're almost as bad as BYU fans when it comes to football and styles. Not pointing fingers here, but we have too many armchair whistleblowers who insist there is a "right" way to play basketball (if the groans were really audible at ESA over how WSU played, then my point is cemented). Me, I'm from the Auerbach school of thought, which says, "There are only two great plays: South Pacific and putting the ball in the basket."

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

I agree with you on this, but I also think Fountain hit it on the head with Utah fans knowing that recruiting the big time players was/is simply not a reality here. We love the Chris Hill/Rick Majerus/Kyle Whittingham ability to find and/or develop a diamond in a rough. Think of Utah's most beloved players... Alex Jensen and Morgan Scalley.

Now as for the groaning at ESA, it was audible, but it also probably had to do with the fact that Wich St. first game could have quite possibly been one of the worst NCAA tournament games I have had the displeasure of sitting through. Both teams played awful in that game and it felt more like a game where the winner was the team that sucked the least.

Of course Wich St redeemed itself over and over again after that, but I think the Ute fans in attendance were thinking, "We've seen this stuff before and it sucks..."

I wish I could add to Senioritis's analysis of 'South Pacific', but I'm more of a 'Cats' man myself.

[Utah]

We're almost as bad as BYU fans when it comes to football and styles. Not pointing fingers here, but we have too many armchair whistleblowers who insist there is a "right" way to play basketball (if the groans were really audible at ESA over how WSU played, then my point is cemented). Me, I'm from the Auerbach school of thought, which says, "There are only two great plays: South Pacific and putting the ball in the basket."

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

I don't agree with this at all. If the Utes were able to recruit Jabari, win 30 games with him taking 30 shots a night ala Jimmer, the Huntsman Center would be a lot more packed than it was last year. We are just as fickle as any fanbase...we just want wins, whether it comes from Allen Iverson or a fantastic team playing great team basketball.

[LA Ute]

I don't agree with this at all. If the Utes were able to recruit Jabari, win 30 games with him taking 30 shots a night ala Jimmer, the Huntsman Center would be a lot more packed than it was last year. We are just as fickle as any fanbase...we just want wins, whether it comes from Allen Iverson or a fantastic team playing great team basketball.

For the fans who wanted JB to succeed but gave up on him, it was not the style of he play he tried to implement, it was his ineffectiveness implementing any style of play. We've moved on.

[SeattleUte]

I can't believe this debate has gone on this long. STOP IT! Jim Boylen was a complete knave and a fool, a total POS. He failed at every level of coaching. He couldn't even keep a team manned year to year. Kodiak has at least done that. Boylen teams played like they were on the playground. He thought the secret to success was manipulating the press and message boards including by giving free food and beer to fans. He represents nightmare years of Utah basketball, he's the worst thing that's ever happened to Utah athletics. Just look at the wreckage he left behind. I always thought he was a complete bufoon, an idiot. Then he showed he was worse than that when he worked behind the scenes to get O'Brien et al. to transfer after he was fired. I loath Jim Boylen. You all should too. You're way too kind.

Kill this thread, please.

[UtahsMrSports]

We're almost as bad as BYU fans when it comes to football and styles. Not pointing fingers here, but we have too many armchair whistleblowers who insist there is a "right" way to play basketball (if the groans were really audible at ESA over how WSU played, then my point is cemented). Me, I'm from the Auerbach school of thought, which says, "There are only two great plays: South Pacific and putting the ball in the basket."

I'd be thrilled if we played (and won) like a Butler or Princeton; equally so if we won like UNLV. I think we have fans who would rather win 18 games the "right" way rather than cozying up to the idea of playing the "wrong" way and winning 30-plus.

I have never met a Ute fan who complains about style when we win or who would take 18 wins the right way. If you can find me one, id LOVE to meet them. I don't think that attitude exists, and if it does, its in VERY small doses.

The only time I ever complain about a playing "Style" is when we are playing selfish, individual oriented-basketball and we lose. (see '09-'10 we had ONE guy who averaged more than 1.25 assists per game!!!!!!! Thats pitiful!)

Id also be complaining if our team was full of felons or bozos (ala Marshall Henderson) even if we were winning. I dont ask that we fill the team with choir boys, but I do want our team to be smiled on and something that the whole community can get behind.

[SoCalPat]

I have never met a Ute fan who complains about style when we win or who would take 18 wins the right way. If you can find me one, id LOVE to meet them. I don't think that attitude exists, and if it does, its in VERY small doses.

There were several fans who didn't want Dave Rose during our last coaching search because his teams didn't play defense. Never mind that they win 20 games every year and play an exciting brand of basketball -- Rose was a bad fit because he couldn't get the consensus POY to play like Drew Hansen (Disclaimer: That remark is in no way meant to be a slight against Drew, one of my all-time favorite unsung players. But even Drew would admit you wouldn't win many games if you had 12 of him on your roster).

You want to see evidence of those who prefer style over results -- just watch until our next head coaching search.

[UtahsMrSports]

There were several fans who didn't want Dave Rose during our last coaching search because his teams didn't play defense. Never mind that they win 20 games every year and play an exciting brand of basketball -- Rose was a bad fit because he couldn't get the consensus POY to play like Drew Hansen (Disclaimer: That remark is in no way meant to be a slight against Drew, one of my all-time favorite unsung players. But even Drew would admit you wouldn't win many games if you had 12 of him on your roster).

You want to see evidence of those who prefer style over results -- just watch until our next head coaching search.

ah got ya. and yes, id agree. thats dumb.

And I hope our next hc search is not for another decade or more.

[Jarid in Cedar]

There were several fans who didn't want Dave Rose during our last coaching search because his teams didn't play defense. Never mind that they win 20 games every year and play an exciting brand of basketball -- Rose was a bad fit because he couldn't get the consensus POY to play like Drew Hansen (Disclaimer: That remark is in no way meant to be a slight against Drew, one of my all-time favorite unsung players. But even Drew would admit you wouldn't win many games if you had 12 of him on your roster).

You want to see evidence of those who prefer style over results -- just watch until our next head coaching search.

I think that Rose is a good coach, but this is a reason why his 20 win teams seemed to lose when it matters most.

[SoCalPat]

I agree with you on this, but I also think Fountain hit it on the head with Utah fans knowing that recruiting the big time players was/is simply not a reality here. We love the Chris Hill/Rick Majerus/Kyle Whittingham ability to find and/or develop a diamond in a rough. Think of Utah's most beloved players... Alex Jensen and Morgan Scalley.

That can work in the MWC, but we'll never equal our past feats in the MWC with that mentality in the Pac-12. And most of what endeared us so much to Alex and Morgan is that they were big winners. Think we hold Alex in such high esteem if he never plays on a team that makes it past the round of 32?

Like I said in another thread about Utah hoops, we're not capable of doing anything outrageous and that's why success in our new league will be very hard to come by. We're not only fine with maintaining the status quo as far as we're perceived on the recruiting trail, we embrace it, and UCLA, Oregon and Arizona are more than happy that we're content in not being a threat to them for recruits. The funny thing is, we've long maintained that BYU could never achieve the heights in basketball that Utah has because our pool is much bigger. Now that we've gone close to a decade with mediocre results, it's because our recruiting pool is smaller? What gives?

[LA Ute]

I think that Rose is a good coach, but this is a reason why his 20 win teams seemed to lose when it matters most.

I've wondered whether Jimmer would be doing more in the NBA if Rose had insisted that he learn to play defense. When I watched him during the NCAA tournament in his senior year I was embarrassed for him. He didn't even try to play defense.

[SoCalPat]

I think that Rose is a good coach, but this is a reason why his 20 win teams seemed to lose when it matters most.

And I'm not trying to insist that Rose's defensive schemes or emphasis are without peer. But the man was one HC violation from getting to the Final Four, and maybe even winning it all.

[SoCalPat]

I've wondered whether Jimmer would be doing more in the NBA if Rose had insisted that he learn to play defense. When I watched him during the NCAA tournament in his senior year I was embarrassed for him. He didn't even try to play defense.

There's the first notch for "Skeptics" in the category of "Is Dave Rose a good coach?" Really now ...

I'm sure Rose didn't hold Jimmer out of defensive slide drills, or tell him not to worry about being a matador on defense. But if there ever was a player to totally excuse on defense, it would be the guy who sells out arenas, averages 28 PPG and can get to the line at will and shoot 90 percent from there to boot.

[LA Ute]

There's the first notch for "Skeptics" in the category of "Is Dave Rose a good coach?" Really now ...

I'm sure Rose didn't hold Jimmer out of defensive slide drills, or tell him not to worry about being a matador on defense. But if there ever was a player to totally excuse on defense, it would be the guy who sells out arenas, averages 28 PPG and can get to the line at will and shoot 90 percent from there to boot.

I admire Rose as a coach and would have been happy if he had come to Utah. Jimmer's D was still a joke.

[SoCalPat]

I admire Rose as a coach and would have been happy if he had come to Utah. Jimmer's D was still a joke.

It was. Jimmer goes against my belief that elite scorers have the athleticism to be, at worst, average defenders. At the same time, Rose was smart not to waste practice time in trying to turn Jimmer into something he isn't. I doubt either side wanted those kinds of defensive results, but sometimes you gotta make do with what you've got, and I credit Rose for realizing that sooner than other coaches might have done.

I will remove the notch for you in the Skeptics category and put it in its appropriate place (where I knew it belonged all along).

[UtahsMrSports]

That can work in the MWC, but we'll never equal our past feats in the MWC with that mentality in the Pac-12. And most of what endeared us so much to Alex and Morgan is that they were big winners. Think we hold Alex in such high esteem if he never plays on a team that makes it past the round of 32?

Like I said in another thread about Utah hoops, we're not capable of doing anything outrageous and that's why success in our new league will be very hard to come by. We're not only fine with maintaining the status quo as far as we're perceived on the recruiting trail, we embrace it, and UCLA, Oregon and Arizona are more than happy that we're content in not being a threat to them for recruits. The funny thing is, we've long maintained that BYU could never achieve the heights in basketball that Utah has because our pool is much bigger. Now that we've gone close to a decade with mediocre results, it's because our recruiting pool is smaller? What gives?

This will change if we steal Chapman from them. At least start to.

[LA Ute]

I will remove the notch for you in the Skeptics category and put it in its appropriate place (where I knew it belonged all along).

Good. I was worried that I might have to lodge a protest with Jarid or something like that.

[Applejack]

Boylen is the head man (non-interim) with the Bulls. The Chicago Bulls!!!!!

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1069606433237491712

1069606433237491712

[concerned]

Wow, I hope he kills it. Seems like a tough spot to fall into, though.


We ought to have a bingo game for the first time he says

"Ball didnt go in the hoop"

or

"Nice of you to show up."

[Applejack]

That's a cherished Utah basketball memory.

That is the first time that phrase has ever been uttered about Jim Boylen.

[Mormon Red Death]

https://twitter.com/CodyWesterlund/status/1071606843686952960?s=19

[Applejack]

https://twitter.com/CodyWesterlund/status/1071606843686952960?s=19

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25493942/chicago-bulls-players-push-back-coach-jim-boylen-aggressive-style

Trouble in paradise. Who could have seen this coming?

[SoCalPat]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/25493942/chicago-bulls-players-push-back-coach-jim-boylen-aggressive-style

Trouble in paradise. Who could have seen this coming?

There are generals and there are lieutenants. Jimmy clearly demonstrating that he's the latter.

[Mormon Red Death]

https://twitter.com/KevinOConnorNBA/status/1075625607432683521?s=19