The right wing paranoia thread.

[Dawminator]

I am creating this thread for those of us who are concerned about the power of our government and how it abuses or might abuse that power. My hope is that after some time others will be able to read the links in the thread and viewed collectively will paint a clear picture of the dangers our own government can and does pose to us. I welcome other like minded people (Garth, Chad, Codered, etc.) to post their own links.

[Dawminator]

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/06/17/sharyl-attkisson-shares-update-on-computer-hacking-investigation/

This is a huge intrusion. It has not been shown who hacked her computer, but the implications are truly troubling.

[Dawminator]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/state-photo-id-databases-become-troves-for-police/2013/06/16/6f014bd4-ced5-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html

The potential uses of this are troubling.

[Dawminator]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/16/snowden-whistleblower-nsa-officials-roundtable/2428809/

A direct answer to your question, LA, about how he should have blown the whistle. EVERYBODY who hates on Snowden for doing what he did and how he did it, needs to watch this video and the transcript below in its entirety.

[GUBA]

I am actually more concerned about the undue influence that large corporations hold over government and the economy. Corps like Monsanto, Koch Industries, etc. Pollute, bully, and act in other unethical ways basically with impunity. They are large enough to essentially be impervious to mass consumer action. Boycotts and protests don't work. Lawsuits fail as they have such deep pockets. At least with governments there seems a greater possibility of voting people out.

[Dawminator]

I am actually more concerned about the undue influence that large corporations hold over government and the economy. Corps like Monsanto, Koch Industries, etc. Pollute, bully, and act in other unethical ways basically with impunity. They are large enough to essentially be impervious to mass consumer action. Boycotts and protests don't work. Lawsuits fail as they have such deep pockets. At least with governments there seems a greater possibility of voting people out.

They go hand it hand. Its facism. Without people in government providing support that the corporations need, these corps dont have the power they do. I don't disagree with you, but you can't separate the two.

[GarthUte]

An 8th grader in West Virginia could go to jail and it's all because he wore a pro-NRA t-shirt to school:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/15/8th-grader-suspended-arrested-over-nra-t-shirt-now-faces-500-fine-and-a-year-in-jail/

[Applejack]

http://www.segway.com/patrol/images/photos/large/police9.jpg

[Dawminator]

This post from U-Ute is perfect for this thread and I took the liberty to copy and paste it hear. The articles he links to are important for everyone to read.


I knew there would eventually be something outside of the Utes Garth and I can agree on. :)

This NSA business is an extremely dangerous slipperly slope. I think it is something we should all be concerned about...

For those who are not upset with it due to the FISC review, it would appear that they are nothing more than a rubber stamp court (http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html) in that they've only rejected 11 of the nearly 34,000 requests. Those are rejection rates that even the bank forclosure courts are jealous of. Its interesting to note when they started approving reviews of American citizens.

If that doesn't bother you because you aren't doing anything wrong, keep in mind that you are probably committing 3 felonies every day (http://kottke.org/13/06/you-commit-three-felonies-a-day) without even knowing it. Even if most of those are obscure and probably outdated laws, it doesn't change the fact that you are breaking them, and if you suddenly become someone that the government is interested in, they can use it against you (http://dailycaller.com/2013/06/13/jailed-qwest-ceo-claimed-that-nsa-retaliated-because-he-wouldnt-participate-in-spy-program/).

Lastly, I think that this Wired (http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/06/why-i-have-nothing-to-hide-is-the-wrong-way-to-think-about-surveillance/) article brings up an interesting point that without the ability to break the law, we don't have a way of deciding which laws we should get rid of.

[Diehard Ute]

Except that book, as I showed in that thread, is filled with errors.

[LA Ute]

Except that book, as I showed in that thread, is filled with errors.

Of course YOU would say that. You're part of the police state.

[Diehard Ute]

Of course YOU would say that. You're part of the police state.

Haha yeah, that's me.

It's interesting reading all the stuff posted here and then going "weird, I've never seen or heard of that until now" ;)

[Dawminator]

Except that book, as I showed in that thread, is filled with errors.

That was one link from his post I didn't click and it is honestly the one link I am the least worried about.

[GarthUte]

Haha yeah, that's me.

It's interesting reading all the stuff posted here and then going "weird, I've never seen or heard of that until now" ;)

I'm curious if you're speaking for yourself here, or if you're just making a general comment that could sum up what we may all be thinking? (Not a criticism, but an honest question.)

If you haven't heard of this until what's in the link in this thread, why is that? I will admit that I tend to go to sources that lean more to the right - I'm honest enough to admit my partisanship - but I think a lot of what we hear or don't hear is because of the sources we choose from which to get our news. Sources like Fox News that are more sympathetic to conservative views are going to spin the news to the right, or will stay on a story that puts the current administration in a negative light. Sources like MSNBC will do the opposite - spin the story left or ignore stories that puts the current administration in a negative light. Both networks took the opposite view when Bush was in office. But the problem is when the mainstream media claims to be neutral but it's reporting doesn't reflect that, so where can we go to get a truly unbiased source? I personally, don't think we can go anywhere to get unbiased reporting, which is why I go with the conservative sources.

[Diehard Ute]

I'm curious if you're speaking for yourself here, or if you're just making a general comment that could sum up what we may all be thinking? (Not a criticism, but an honest question.)

If you haven't heard of this until what's in the link in this thread, why is that? I will admit that I tend to go to sources that lean more to the right - I'm honest enough to admit my partisanship - but I think a lot of what we hear or don't hear is because of the sources we choose from which to get our news. Sources like Fox News that are more sympathetic to conservative views are going to spin the news to the right, or will stay on a story that puts the current administration in a negative light. Sources like MSNBC will do the opposite - spin the story left or ignore stories that puts the current administration in a negative light. Both networks took the opposite view when Bush was in office. But the problem is when the mainstream media claims to be neutral but it's reporting doesn't reflect that, so where can we go to get a truly unbiased source? I personally, don't think we can go anywhere to get unbiased reporting, which is why I go with the conservative sources.

I'm more saying all these things that get reported as being easy and rampant in law enforcement aren't. I don't have access to facial recognition, massive federal databases or anything like that. I know how hard it is to just get a cell phone location when we have someone who's missing, and how inaccurate that data is.

As for the media, I know none of it is accurate. I see that every day. What you see on the 5PM news is not accurate to what actually occurred.

Saw the same thing when I worked around the football team at the U. Rarely what was reported was correct

[GarthUte]

I'm more saying all these things that get reported as being easy and rampant in law enforcement aren't. I don't have access to facial recognition, massive federal databases or anything like that. I know how hard it is to just get a cell phone location when we have someone who's missing, and how inaccurate that data is.

As for the media, I know none of it is accurate. I see that every day. What you see on the 5PM news is not accurate to what actually occurred.

Saw the same thing when I worked around the football team at the U. Rarely what was reported was correct

Okay, I'm with you now. I would say that this is the fault of Hollywood and other story-telling groups. Folks watch CSI and think that the police have access to some awesome equipment. Yet another reason to hate the entertainment industry!

[Rocker Ute]

I'm more saying all these things that get reported as being easy and rampant in law enforcement aren't. I don't have access to facial recognition, massive federal databases or anything like that. I know how hard it is to just get a cell phone location when we have someone who's missing, and how inaccurate that data is.

As for the media, I know none of it is accurate. I see that every day. What you see on the 5PM news is not accurate to what actually occurred.

Saw the same thing when I worked around the football team at the U. Rarely what was reported was correct

I'm still waiting for that technology that de-pixelates digital photographs, I bet that is freaking awesome for you.

[U-Ute]

As for the media, I know none of it is accurate. I see that every day. What you see on the 5PM news is not accurate to what actually occurred.

It reminds me of the one smart thing PK has ever said


The media doesn't report the truth. It reports what people tell them.

An important distinction to keep in mind.

[Diehard Ute]

It reminds me of the one smart thing PK has ever said



An important distinction to keep in mind.

And often they don't even report what was told to them

[Scratch]

And often they don't even report what was told to them

Exactly. I worked up at the Legislature for a while, and I was shocked at how regularly the media just got things wrong. And it wasn't about any sort of political bias, it was pure incompetence and misunderstanding the issues and concepts.

[Diehard Ute]

I'm still waiting for that technology that de-pixelates digital photographs, I bet that is freaking awesome for you.

I'm still wanting our 20 minute DNA test and instant fingerprint recognition!

[Rocker Ute]

I'm still wanting our 20 minute DNA test and instant fingerprint recognition!

For the record, whenever I think of you on the job I picture this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mznsEcZlM2I

[Diehard Ute]

For the record, whenever I think of you on the job I picture this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mznsEcZlM2I

It's appreciated, but I had to stop wearing the sunglasses, I kept running into things since I work at night.

[Rocker Ute]

It's appreciated, but I had to stop wearing the sunglasses, I kept running into things since I work at night.

To keep the same effect, you can take them off instead...

"And that's why..."
(Takes off sunglasses)
"You always leave a note."

I think I'm mixing my shows up here.

[Two Utes]

It's appreciated, but I had to stop wearing the sunglasses, I kept running into things since I work at night.

Good to know that since you work at night, you aren't on one of the shakedown crews that line cars up, pull them over and tax them by writing tickets for any and all reasons as they go through certain intersections.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

Jim Carey doing David Caruso doing Horatio Caine...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HJSqkwyL1Zo

[Diehard Ute]

Good to know that since you work at night, you aren't on one of the shakedown crews that line cars up, pull them over and tax them by writing tickets for any and all reasons as they go through certain intersections.

I don't know any officers that do that.

The motors guys write tickets. That's their job. But contrary to popular belief there's no quota, guideline or expectation given out regarding tickets.

They're also really not revenue makers, the agency that writes the ticket gets about 33% of the actual fine, the rest goes all kinds of other places. And none of that money is returned to the police department directly.

Most of the motors I know enforce speed, stop signs and DUI's. Most write the speed for 5 over even if the laser said 15. Most of their enforcement assignments come from citizen complaints.

I may write one or two tickets a week. They're for things like running red lights, no insurance, expired registration and suspended licenses. I'll pull people over for other things (when time allows which in the summer is rare) but you're not likely to get a ticket from me or anyone else I work with.

[San Diego Ute Fan]

Good to know that since you work at night, you aren't on one of the shakedown crews that line cars up, pull them over and tax them by writing tickets for any and all reasons as they go through certain intersections.

Unless of course you consider sobriety checkpoints. Do they have those in Utah? They certainly have them here in San Diego.

[Two Utes]

I don't know any officers that do that.

The motors guys write tickets. That's their job. But contrary to popular belief there's no quota, guideline or expectation given out regarding tickets.

They're also really not revenue makers, the agency that writes the ticket gets about 33% of the actual fine, the rest goes all kinds of other places. And none of that money is returned to the police department directly.

Most of the motors I know enforce speed, stop signs and DUI's. Most write the speed for 5 over even if the laser said 15. Most of their enforcement assignments come from citizen complaints.

I may write one or two tickets a week. They're for things like running red lights, no insurance, expired registration and suspended licenses. I'll pull people over for other things (when time allows which in the summer is rare) but you're not likely to get a ticket from me or anyone else I work with.

We will just have to agree to disagree. Police officers are generating big time revenue for their respective cities. The cites need and use the money. It is a huge revenue generating tool (tax). You're drinking the police Kool-Aid that they share to the public because they don't want the general public to perceive officers as being revenue generators for the city.

West Temple and 8th South getting on the freeway. They are there every two to three weeks. They pull over everybody. You don't have a license plate on the front of your car? 30 bucks. You turned into the middle lane rather than the left lane when you made the turn onto West Temple? 80 bucks. The list goes on. They tax people as they leave the fair city.

Every time I raise it with any police officer the response is EXACTLY your response.

[Diehard Ute]

We will just have to agree to disagree. Police officers are generating big time revenue for their respective cities. The cites need and use the money. It is a huge revenue generating tool (tax). You're drinking the police Kool-Aid that they share to the public because they don't want the general public to perceive officers as being revenue generators for the city.

West Temple and 8th South getting on the freeway. They are there every two to three weeks. They pull over everybody. You don't have a license plate on the front of your car? 30 bucks. You turned into the middle lane rather than the left lane when you made the turn onto West Temple? 80 bucks. The list goes on. They tax people as they leave the fair city.

Every time I raise it with any police officer the response is EXACTLY your response.

Because its a bogus argument.

We're fighting tooth and nail just to keep our staffing where it's is and avoid layoffs. This flow of money you think exists just isn't there, but continue believing your conspiracy theory, if I'd wanted to be liked I'd have been a firefighter.

And, the law is the law. If you don't like them, talk to the legislature who enacted them as that's who your issue is with

And PS, you can't get pulled over for not having a front license plate on your car, it's a secondary violation ;)

[Utah]

I don't know any officers that do that.

The motors guys write tickets. That's their job. But contrary to popular belief there's no quota, guideline or expectation given out regarding tickets.

They're also really not revenue makers, the agency that writes the ticket gets about 33% of the actual fine, the rest goes all kinds of other places. And none of that money is returned to the police department directly.

Most of the motors I know enforce speed, stop signs and DUI's. Most write the speed for 5 over even if the laser said 15. Most of their enforcement assignments come from citizen complaints.

I may write one or two tickets a week. They're for things like running red lights, no insurance, expired registration and suspended licenses. I'll pull people over for other things (when time allows which in the summer is rare) but you're not likely to get a ticket from me or anyone else I work with.

This drives me nuts about cops. I wish they would just be consistent. I wish they would raise the speed limit 5-10 mph and then actually enforce it. It drives me batty that you can fly by one cop going 80 in a 65 and he doesn't even blink. Then you drive by another going 68 in a 65 and he nails you to the floor. Or a cop passes you on the freeway and you are going 73, and he flies by you.

You have no idea what is ok and what isn't ok.

That and stop signs. What a waste. You want to increase gas mileage with some dumbass way Obama? Take out stop signs and put in roundabouts. There is stupid way to put people to work, improve cities and increase gas mileage.

[Diehard Ute]

This drives me nuts about cops. I wish they would just be consistent. I wish they would raise the speed limit 5-10 mph and then actually enforce it. It drives me batty that you can fly by one cop going 80 in a 65 and he doesn't even blink. Then you drive by another going 68 in a 65 and he nails you to the floor. Or a cop passes you on the freeway and you are going 73, and he flies by you.

You have no idea what is ok and what isn't ok.

That and stop signs. What a waste. You want to increase gas mileage with some dumbass way Obama? Take out stop signs and put in roundabouts. There is stupid way to put people to work, improve cities and increase gas mileage.

If you do 65 in a 65 you will be fine :)

And it usually has little to do with consistency and more to do with circumstance. I often have to ignore traffic violations as I'm en route to a call. I also am far less likely to stop someone for a routine violator on my way home, if I stopped everyone who made violations I would never get home :)

[Two Utes]

Because its a bogus argument.

We're fighting tooth and nail just to keep our staffing where it's is and avoid layoffs. This flow of money you think exists just isn't there, but continue believing your conspiracy theory, if I'd wanted to be liked I'd have been a firefighter.

And, the law is the law. If you don't like them, talk to the legislature who enacted them as that's who your issue is with

And PS, you can't get pulled over for not having a front license plate on your car, it's a secondary violation ;)

You're right. The law is the law. So start enforcing all of those laws. Here's guessing you (and me) might have violated 3 or 4 laws on Utah's book and records at least today.

[Diehard Ute]

You're right. The law is the law. So start enforcing all of those laws. Here's guessing you (and me) might have violated 3 or 4 laws on Utah's book and records at least today.

Probably. I guess if you don't want me to come take a burglary report I could.

[Two Utes]

Probably. I guess if you don't want me to come take a burglary report I could.

What I would like is for the police to spend more time responding to calls and less time on handing out bogus traffic tickets. I'd also like my city to stop heavily relying on the revenue generated by those bogus tickets, so that the police are not encouraged to write them.

[Diehard Ute]

What I would like is for the police to spend more time responding to calls and less time on handing out bogus traffic tickets. I'd also like my city to stop heavily relying on the revenue generated by those bogus tickets, so that the police are not encouraged to write them.

I spend far more (I'd guess 75%) of my time responding to calls.

I also have absolutely no incentive to write tickets (not does anyone in patrol I work with). I could write thousands of tickets a year. It wouldn't get me a raise, time off or even a pat on the back. Instead I write about 60 tickets a year, and give out probably 300 warnings a year. Most people I work with write less tickets than I do.

I'd love to see you give actual numbers on this huge revenue windfall, specifically breaking out traffic tickets from fines due to parking tickets and Class B misdemeanors.

[U-Ute]

We will just have to agree to disagree. Police officers are generating big time revenue for their respective cities. The cites need and use the money. It is a huge revenue generating tool (tax). You're drinking the police Kool-Aid that they share to the public because they don't want the general public to perceive officers as being revenue generators for the city.

West Temple and 8th South getting on the freeway. They are there every two to three weeks. They pull over everybody. You don't have a license plate on the front of your car? 30 bucks. You turned into the middle lane rather than the left lane when you made the turn onto West Temple? 80 bucks. The list goes on. They tax people as they leave the fair city.

Every time I raise it with any police officer the response is EXACTLY your response.

I think there are certain "problem areas" that the police focus on every once in a while. Usually for a good reason. I don't think they draw an intersection out of a hat for Revenue Thursday.

[LA Ute]

Peggy Noonan has some interesting thoughts here:

http://blogs.wsj.com/peggynoonan/

[Two Utes]

I think there are certain "problem areas" that the police focus on every once in a while. Usually for a good reason. I don't think they draw an intersection out of a hat for Revenue Thursday.

I disagree. Except that they don't draw the intersection out of a hat. It's revenue Thursday and they pick appropriate spots to start generating that revenue. The City has acknowledged they need and rely on this ticket revenue. It's just hard for the general public to accept this thought.

[Two Utes]

I disagree. Except that they don't draw the intersection out of a hat. It's revenue Thursday and they pick appropriate spots to start generating that revenue. The City has acknowledged they need and rely on this ticket revenue. It's just hard for the general public to accept this thought.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55272046-78/parking-budget-revenue-traffic.html.csp And don't even get me started on the misdemeanor courts downtown. The whole system is a god damn cash cow for the city. Unreal amounts are being paid by every citizen who is charged with a misdemeanor. Standard protocol is to hold a guilty verdict in abeyance until the defendant pays a $625 fine. Then the misdemeanor gets dismissed.

If someone on this board worked at the court system they would tell you that "it really isn't a revenue generating tool." BS.

[Diehard Ute]

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55272046-78/parking-budget-revenue-traffic.html.csp And don't even get me started on the misdemeanor courts downtown. The whole system is a god damn cash cow for the city. Unreal amounts are being paid by every citizen who is charged with a misdemeanor. Standard protocol is to hold a guilty verdict in abeyance until the defendant pays a $625 fine. Then the misdemeanor gets dismissed.

If someone on this board worked at the court system they would tell you that "it really isn't a revenue generating tool." BS.

But that actually supports my stance, not yours. The officers aren't writing tickets to bail out the city.

You also should probably look at fine revenue itself. The city budgeted approximately $11,300,000 in fines and forfeitures, out of a $205,000,000 budget. That's 5.3% of Salt Lake City's budget.

Now, that's ALL fines and forfeitures, which includes approximately $4,100,000 in parking tickets, which is a separate non police function. It also includes all fines collected for Class A, B and C misdemeanors, as well as money that's recouped for legal defenders.

So in the end all money brought in by district (Class A cases are prosecuted by the city but are tried in District Court) and justice court, along with other fees that aren't court related represents 3.5% of SLC's budget. That's just not a "cash cow" in any way shape or form.

SLC has cut the revenue from fines expected for the 2013/14 budget by $1,700,000, which again is contrary to your assertion that this is how the city makes money.

For reference SLC obtains more revenue from both licensing and permits than they do fines from criminal cases.

[Diehard Ute]

Sin taxes create the same issues. We want to discourage certain behaviors, so we tax/fine them. Then the government becomes dependent on the revenue. If people actually did stop speeding altogether, there would be a scramble for money. I prefer an honest tax increase to pay for needed services with all sin tax/fine revenue being returned to taxpayers.

As my last post shows, that's just not the case, in 2013/2014 SLC will garner 2.7% of their revenue from all court related income, most of which is for misdemeanor A, B and C cases, not traffic tickets.

[Diehard Ute]

Not a cash cow, sure, but is SLC dependent on that revenue?

Dependent? No.

The assertion that police officers are instructed, pressured or influenced to write tickets to balance the budget is absurd at best. It just doesn't happen.

[Two Utes]

But that actually supports my stance, not yours. The officers aren't writing tickets to bail out the city.

You also should probably look at fine revenue itself. The city budgeted approximately $11,300,000 in fines and forfeitures, out of a $205,000,000 budget. That's 5.3% of Salt Lake City's budget.

Now, that's ALL fines and forfeitures, which includes approximately $4,100,000 in parking tickets, which is a separate non police function. It also includes all fines collected for Class A, B and C misdemeanors, as well as money that's recouped for legal defenders.

So in the end all money brought in by district (Class A cases are prosecuted by the city but are tried in District Court) and justice court, along with other fees that aren't court related represents 3.5% of SLC's budget. That's just not a "cash cow" in any way shape or form.

SLC has cut the revenue from fines expected for the 2013/14 budget by $1,700,000, which again is contrary to your assertion that this is how the city makes money.

For reference SLC obtains more revenue from both licensing and permits than they do fines from criminal cases.

Because there is a shortfall, cops need to write more tickets, The city relies on that revenue. What can we expect from our officers going forward? Less tickets or more tickets?

"Money that's recouped for legal defenders?" Is there a line item where the city pays for legal defenders?

[Diehard Ute]

I see 2.7% as a lot. You see it as a little. If it went away, what would happen? Furloughs? Layoffs? Taxes? Pay freezes? Quotas? I don't know the answer, but something would have to happen.

I dont doubt you one bit about quotas though. As long as that 2.7% is there, quotas are unnecessary.

But in the end traffic tickets are a very small portion of that 2.7%. Most are from actual criminal cases (DUI's, Assaults, Domestic Violence etc).

For a $90 traffic ticket, SLC gets about $43, the rest goes to the state and the county. (I had to look it up, but $90 is the city fine for 1-10MPH over the speed limit)

[Diehard Ute]

Because there is a shortfall, cops need to write more tickets, The city relies on that revenue. What can we expect from our officers going forward? Less tickets or more tickets?

"Money that's recouped for legal defenders?" Is there a line item where the city pays for legal defenders?

But that doesn't happen, the cops don't care what the line items in the budget say (most probably don't even know). And the budget numbers show that, since the article you linked is 2 years old and fine revenue has fallen even more.

As for legal defenders, you'd have to go ask the mayor. He includes that in his description of fines and forfeitures in his budget presentation.

[Diehard Ute]

Look, I'm not whining about cops. Traffic tickets, speed traps, etc are all fine. I do hate photo cops - feels like a cheat.

I just don't like it that our government becomes addicted to behaviors that we try to stop with fines/taxes. That's all.

Photo cop is illegal in Utah :)

[Dawminator]

http://rt.com/usa/fbi-director-mueller-drones-947/

[Dawminator]

So much for a free and vibrant press...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/ap-ceo-details-chilling-effect-after-dept-of-justice-seized

[Jarid in Cedar]

I see 2.7% as a lot. You see it as a little. If it went away, what would happen? Furloughs? Layoffs? Taxes? Pay freezes? Quotas? I don't know the answer, but something would have to happen.

I dont doubt you one bit about quotas though. As long as that 2.7% is there, quotas are unnecessary.

This is the most correct statement. Cities do budget for moving violation fines, based on historical numbers. No quota exists that says, officer x needs to write 60 tickets a week. But there is a revenue number that cities anticipate.

As far as the discussion, if you don't want a ticket, don't violate the law. I speed with an understanding that it may cost me. I am willing to do so despite that risk. Don't like speed traps, don't drive fast in those areas.

[Diehard Ute]

This is the most correct statement. Cities do budget for moving violation fines, based on historical numbers. No quota exists that says, officer x needs to write 60 tickets a week. But there is a revenue number that cities anticipate.

As far as the discussion, if you don't want a ticket, don't violate the law. I speed with an understanding that it may cost me. I am willing to do so despite that risk. Don't like speed traps, don't drive fast in those areas.

I agree with this. My only point is rank and file cops don't write tickets to generate revenue, and certainly don't adjust that based on budget projections.

And you're exactly right about the ticket and the risk reward.

[SavaUte]

So while we're on the topic, what are the best ways to avoid getting a ticket and only getting a warning?

[LA Ute]

So while we're on the topic, what are the best ways to avoid getting a ticket and only getting a warning?

All right, NOW we are getting into a useful discussion.

[Two Utes]

This is the most correct statement. Cities do budget for moving violation fines, based on historical numbers. No quota exists that says, officer x needs to write 60 tickets a week. But there is a revenue number that cities anticipate.

As far as the discussion, if you don't want a ticket, don't violate the law. I speed with an understanding that it may cost me. I am willing to do so despite that risk. Don't like speed traps, don't drive fast in those areas.

I don't have a problem with getting a speeding ticket. Never have never will. The issue I have are when cops pull people over and blatantly write tickets for anything and everything just to generate revenue. And they are doing this. I have watched it and experienced it first hand

[Scratch]

So while we're on the topic, what are the best ways to avoid getting a ticket and only getting a warning?

Being fit, attractive, and wearing revealing clothing. Strategic surgeries probably wouldn't hurt, either.

[Diehard Ute]

I don't have a problem with getting a speeding ticket. Never have never will. The issue I have are when cops pull people over and blatantly write tickets for anything and everything just to generate revenue. And they are doing this. I have watched it and experienced it first hand

I'm curious, how do you know why they pulled the person over and what the ultimate citation is for

[Two Utes]

I'm curious, how do you know why they pulled the person over and what the ultimate citation is for

They pulled me over and told me I didn't turn into the left hand lane but made a turn in the middle lane. He said he'd give me a break and only cited me for not having a front license plate "which wasn't a moving violation." (at least 25% of cars don't have a front license plate, my car doesn't come with one). His partner had just pulled over a guy and gave him the didn't turn in the left lane ticket. I talked to him (windows rolled down) at the next intersection light. They are there every two to three weeks, pulling people pretty much everybody who comes through the light. You don't get pulled over if they are attending to other cars. Otherwise, you are fucked.

[Diehard Ute]

They pulled me over and told me I didn't turn into the left hand lane but made a turn in the middle lane. He said he'd give me a break and only cited me for not having a front license plate "which wasn't a moving violation." (at least 25% of cars don't have a front license plate, my car doesn't come with one). His partner had just pulled over a guy and gave him the didn't turn in the left lane ticket. I talked to him (windows rolled down) at the next intersection light. They are there every two to three weeks, pulling people pretty much everybody who comes through the light. You don't get pulled over if they are attending to other cars. Otherwise, you are fucked.

By Federal law all cars are required to be delivered with the ability to have a front license plate mounted to the vehicle. Just like with speeding, if you choose to not put your plate on you can be cited, same as turning into the incorrect lane. If I was pulled over and cited for that so be it. It's my fault for not following the traffic law.

[chrisrenrut]

They pulled me over and told me I didn't turn into the left hand lane but made a turn in the middle lane. He said he'd give me a break and only cited me for not having a front license plate "which wasn't a moving violation." (at least 25% of cars don't have a front license plate, my car doesn't come with one). His partner had just pulled over a guy and gave him the didn't turn in the left lane ticket. I talked to him (windows rolled down) at the next intersection light. They are there every two to three weeks, pulling people pretty much everybody who comes through the light. You don't get pulled over if they are attending to other cars. Otherwise, you are fucked.

I think it's a huge leap to make the assumption that their motivation for enforcing traffic laws in this area is due to revenue needs. I think it is just as reasonable to assume that they are doing this to enhance the safety of a very busy intersection. I can't tell you how many times I have nearly been hit by someone not turning into the left lane for a left hand turn, or the right lane for a right hand turn.

Apologies that my post doesn't jive with the conspiracy theory vibe of this thread.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I think it's a huge leap to make the assumption that their motivation for enforcing traffic laws in this area is due to revenue needs. I think it is just as reasonable to assume that they are doing this to enhance the safety of a very busy intersection. I can't tell you how many times I have nearly been hit by someone not turning into the left lane for a left hand turn, or the right lane for a right hand turn.

Apologies that my post doesn't jive with the conspiracy theory vibe of this thread.

Bingo

[Two Utes]

By Federal law all cars are required to be delivered with the ability to have a front license plate mounted to the vehicle. Just like with speeding, if you choose to not put your plate on you can be cited, same as turning into the incorrect lane. If I was pulled over and cited for that so be it. It's my fault for not following the traffic law.


And again there are all sorts of state and federal laws that are not enforced. I know we are rehashing old stuff, but you've probably violated 3 or 4 federal and state laws already today. Are you kidding me? You, of all people should know that you can find something to pull someone over at any time.

[LA Ute]

By Federal law all cars are required to be delivered with the ability to have a front license plate mounted to the vehicle. Just like with speeding, if you choose to not put your plate on you can be cited, same as turning into the incorrect lane. If I was pulled over and cited for that so be it. It's my fault for not following the traffic law.

Interesting. I've never been able to figure out how to put a license plate on the front bumper of my car. Short of using duct tape or drilling holes myself, I can't do it. It's a 2008 Lexus. It has always bugged me that the car came that way, although I've only had one ticket for that, from a "meter maid" at LAX.

[Diehard Ute]

Interesting. I've never been able to figure out how to put a license plate on the front bumper of my car. Short of using duct tape or drilling holes myself, I can't do it. It's a 2008 Lexus. It has always bugged me that the car came that way., although I've only had one ticket for that, from a "meter maid" at LAX.

The dealer would have to drill a bracket into your bumper, that's what most car companies do now. They provide the bracket as an option, allowing those who don't want it to not have to drill the bumper

[Diehard Ute]

And again there are all sorts of state and federal laws that are not enforced. I know we are rehashing old stuff, but you've probably violated 3 or 4 federal and state laws already today. Are you kidding me? You, of all people should know that you can find something to pull someone over at any time.

And?

I get it. You're mad you got a ticket. You think it's a bogus law. Great. Take it up with the legislature.

I've gotten tickets in my life too. Does it suck? Yup. Is it anyone else's fault but mine? Nope.

[LA Ute]

The dealer would have to drill a bracket into your bumper, that's what most car companies do now. They provide the bracket as an option, allowing those who don't want it to not have to drill the bumper

The dealer never said anything to me about this. They're probably communists.

[Diehard Ute]

The dealer never said anything to me about this. They're probably communists.

Probably ;)

[Two Utes]

And?

I get it. You're mad you got a ticket. You think it's a bogus law. Great. Take it up with the legislature.

I've gotten tickets in my life too. Does it suck? Yup. Is it anyone else's fault but mine? Nope.

If that helps you sleep better, fine.

[Scratch]

Interesting. I've never been able to figure out how to put a license plate on the front bumper of my car. Short of using duct tape or drilling holes myself, I can't do it. It's a 2008 Lexus. It has always bugged me that the car came that way, although I've only had one ticket for that, from a "meter maid" at LAX.

Mine is the same way. Plus, the front of the car looks way too cool to destroy with a front plate. In my opinion, putting a plate on the front would be the real crime.

[Dawminator]

Obama made an attack on private religious education...

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/06/19/obama-offends-catholics-in-the-uk-says-religious-schools-are-divisive-78053

Sounds like the beginnings of a power grab to me.

[Two Utes]

I think it's a huge leap to make the assumption that their motivation for enforcing traffic laws in this area is due to revenue needs. I think it is just as reasonable to assume that they are doing this to enhance the safety of a very busy intersection. I can't tell you how many times I have nearly been hit by someone not turning into the left lane for a left hand turn, or the right lane for a right hand turn.

Apologies that my post doesn't jive with the conspiracy theory vibe of this thread.

To clarify, there were three lanes. I pulled into the middle lane, not the right lane. it's pretty hard to turn into the left lane. You have to make a serious turn to stay in the left hand lane (that ironically is probably a lot more dangerous than turning into the middle lane.)

[Two Utes]

By Federal law all cars are required to be delivered with the ability to have a front license plate mounted to the vehicle. Just like with speeding, if you choose to not put your plate on you can be cited, same as turning into the incorrect lane. If I was pulled over and cited for that so be it. It's my fault for not following the traffic law.


It's also ironic that the car in your moniker doesn't have a front license plate.

[Scratch]

My personal favorite was the time I ran into the 7-11 right next to the East High seminary to grab a Dr. Pepper. Seminary got out a few minutes before the regular class, so I could easily run in, grab a drink, and then make it back to my next class without being late. An undercover cop grabbed me and cuffed me. I explained to him what was going on, and how I wasn't going to miss a second of school until he grabbed me, but he insisted on taking me downtown and making my mom come and pick me up. He put me in the passenger seat of his car with my hands cuffed behind my back. After we'd driven for about half a block I asked him how I was supposed to put my seat belt on, or if he was going to give me a ticket for that, too. He pulled over and put my seat belt on before continuing downtown. Would it kill some of these people to use a little common sense?

[Dawminator]

Everything I have read about the FISA Court is just plain wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/for-secretive-surveillance-court-rare-scrutiny-in-wake-of-nsa-leaks/2013/06/22/df9eaae6-d9fa-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

[GarthUte]

http://reason.com/24-7/2013/07/04/nevada-cops-commandeer-private-homes-arr

[U-Ute]

http://reason.com/24-7/2013/07/04/nevada-cops-commandeer-private-homes-arr

I saw this yesterday. As there are two sides to every story, I would be very surprised, and disappointed, if this is true the way it is written. If so, then they need to come down hard on whomever made the decision to do that.

[DanielLaRusso]

Obama made an attack on private religious education...

http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/06/19/obama-offends-catholics-in-the-uk-says-religious-schools-are-divisive-78053

Sounds like the beginnings of a power grab to me.

He's obviously referring to the roots of sectarian conflicts in Ireland and Northern Ireland. This is no power grab; he's identifying that people use institutions to perpetuate ridiculous conflicts. Perhaps it's a little anti-self-determination, but any study of the region reveals that said self-determination has created a cycle of conflict. Of course, this can't be blamed just on schools, but it's the example he chose. He should have expanded it to show the wide reach of the problem. Regardless, nothing to see here.

[GarthUte]

I saw this yesterday. As there are two sides to every story, I would be very surprised, and disappointed, if this is true the way it is written. If so, then they need to come down hard on whomever made the decision to do that.

Agreed that there are two sides to each story, but the authorities don't seem to be in much of a rush to tell their side.

[Diehard Ute]

Agreed that there are two sides to each story, but the authorities don't seem to be in much of a rush to tell their side.

Well, that is usually because they can't. In this case a lawsuit has been filed, which usually will keep any government agency from talking.

[U-Ute]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-WMn_zHCVo

[GarthUte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-WMn_zHCVo

You beat me to it, as I was just about to post this same video. There is absolutely no reason nor excuse for this to have happened to the kid.

[U-Ute]

You beat me to it, as I was just about to post this same video. There is absolutely no reason nor excuse for this to have happened to the kid.

I know most cops are just trying to do their job. I think a lot of them see so many shady characters that everyone becomes a suspect in their minds. Some are just poorly trained. A few love the power trip.

I wonder where this guy falls.

[U-Ute]

Along the same lines...

http://rt.com/usa/virginia-girl-arrested-water-503/

I can't blame them for not trusting plain clothes cops flashing what could be anything in their wallet.

Maybe Diehard can chime on this one, but in my mind, the plain clothed cops should've calmed them down by saying they would wait for a marked police car to show up and let them call in for one. I know I will tell my daughter not to trust anyone who says they are a policeman that isn't in a fully marked car.

[Diehard Ute]

Along the same lines...

http://rt.com/usa/virginia-girl-arrested-water-503/

I can't blame them for not trusting plain clothes cops flashing what could be anything in their wallet.

Maybe Diehard can chime on this one, but in my mind, the plain clothed cops should've calmed them down by saying they would wait for a marked police car to show up and let them call in for one. I know I will tell my daughter not to trust anyone who says they are a policeman that isn't in a fully marked car.

Most of us have no problem with people calling 911 to verify who we are or waiting for a marked unit. Or just ask for ID, we all have picture police ID (I have a badge and ID withe me 24/7)

One thing you have to remember, you're seeing a handful of the approximately 1,000,000 cops in the US, no one releases the videos of the good guys.

Now, as to that video. The manner in which the officers act is certainly not helpful, however the driver has a few things he is incorrect about, or is not providing full information.

You are required, if asked, to produce license, registration and insurance at a checkpoint. Now laws can vary by state, but the Supreme Court has upheld such checkpoints. The driver saying he doesn't have to provide ID or answer regarding his age is incorrect.

His statements about the way drug dogs work is also incorrect, at least in well trained dogs. We can't see the rest of the car so I can't comment on any hits, but the swipe at the window is not a normal indicator

My guess is the driver purposefully drove through this checkpoint with the intention or hope of something happening. It's becoming more common. I certainly think the officers could have handled it better, and so could the driver.

Here's a video of a very professional officer who responds to a "setup" encounter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj9wahCTz08

[U-Ute]

Most of us have no problem with people calling 911 to verify who we are or waiting for a marked unit. Or just ask for ID, we all have picture police ID (I have a badge and ID withe me 24/7)


One thing you have to remember, you're seeing a handful of the approximately 1,000,000 cops in the US, no one releases the videos of the good guys.

I agree 100%. We only hear about the problematic minority.


Now, as to that video. The manner in which the officers act is certainly not helpful, however the driver has a few things he is incorrect about, or is not providing full information.

You are required, if asked, to produce license, registration and insurance at a checkpoint. Now laws can vary by state, but the Supreme Court has upheld such checkpoints. The driver saying he doesn't have to provide ID or answer regarding his age is incorrect.

His statements about the way drug dogs work is also incorrect, at least in well trained dogs. We can't see the rest of the car so I can't comment on any hits, but the swipe at the window is not a normal indicator

My guess is the driver purposefully drove through this checkpoint with the intention or hope of something happening. It's becoming more common. I certainly think the officers could have handled it better, and so could the driver.

Here's a video of a very professional officer who responds to a "setup" encounter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj9wahCTz08

I agree that the driver was out to sting the cops. It was unfortunate that it appeared to be two people who were both looking for trouble and they found each other.

I fully appreciate how the Klamath officer handled that situation.

[Diehard Ute]

We try and train our new officers to be respectful and courteous whenever possible. We have a job to do, and sometimes we have to do things people don't like, but its a job, and its NEVER personal for me, and I try and pass that on to new officers

Police work has changed greatly in the last 20 years and continues to change and a rapid pace. With body cameras coming online both 'sides' for lack of a better term will be filming everything. That's a large change and one that could be interesting

[jrj84105]

Is this on the radar of local police departments? http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/pubs/brochures/steroids/lawenforcement/lawenforcement.pdf

Are officers counseled at all on the potential negative effects of steroid use (whether obtained legally or illegally)? I think steroid (mis)use is more endemic among police than just "a few bad eggs".

[Diehard Ute]

Is this on the radar of local police departments? http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/pubs/brochures/steroids/lawenforcement/lawenforcement.pdf

Are officers counseled at all on the potential negative effects of steroid use (whether obtained legally or illegally)? I think steroid (mis)use is more endemic among police than just "a few bad eggs".

Not sure why you would think that, it's extremely rare around here and will get you fired if caught.

Higher suicide and alcohol abuse rates are much more concerning

[mUUser]

I try to give the police every benefit of the doubt. IMO, the first kid was little more than a know-it-all punk trying to be difficult. The girl thought she was in a fight to save her life, and the police over reacted big-time. There should be consequences to their actions.

[jrj84105]

Not sure why you would think that, it's extremely rare around here and will get you fired if caught.

Higher suicide and alcohol abuse rates are much more concerning

This is what I'm referring to http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/hundreds_of_nj_police_firefigh.html
There is a culture in Utah that anything is OK if a doctor prescribes it and that is reflected in high rates of (mis/over)use of prescription opioids, etc. It's very easy to get an "off-label use" Rx for testosterone, and it's also very easy for someone who works shifts to test as testosterone deficient (if the doc even bothers) due to the natural circadian rhythm of hormone production. The police department in Phoenix has gone on record in describing the inherent difficulties in monitoring for misuse in the era of Rx testosterone supplementation. I would be surprised if Utah had less of an issue than other areas given our culture around Rx use.

[GarthUte]

WTH?

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/North-Texas-Drivers-Stopped-at-Roadblock-Asked-for-Saliva-Blood-232438621.html?fb_ref=s%3DshowShareBarUI%3Ap%3Dfac ebook-send&fb_source=message

[mUUser]

This is one area about the Trump victory I'm absolutely giddy about-- appears the press has come out of its 8 year slumber that began with a thrill up Chris Matthews leg and largely continued until Trump arrived on the scene. We really need a hard charging investigatory press willing to crawl up the federal govts butt and root out waste, corruption, incompetence etc.... is it too much to hope that it will continue with the next administration as well? A lean and transparent federal government is the best federal government.