Zimmerman verdict

[Ma'ake]

The verdict is in, Zimmerman was acquitted, the prosecution evidently did not make a compelling enough case for conviction. I'm sure there is more complexity and nuance in the Florida "stand your ground" law that gave Zimmerman justification for pursuing Martin, and ultimately shooting him, that I don't understand. (Honestly, I don't really want to know.)

Zimmerman's attorney said that had Zimmerman been African American, the case wouldn't have even been brought to trial. That may be true, though it's an inflammatory statement by itself.

There's a historical background for why things are the way they are. When this case first started making waves nationally, and the Civil Rights people got involved, I could immediately relate to the Martin side of things, because I've heard a lot of mind boggling horror stories about race and justice in the South, from my wife's family. Suffice it to say there's a lot of history that we in Utah never get exposed to. My wife was still attending segregated schools in 1963, nine years after Brown vs Board of Education settled the segregated school issue, largely because of white defiance in the South, the simmering resentment of Lincoln the Republican and those damn Yankees.

In the weeks and months after this incident, some of the historical context of race relations in Florida began to emerge. In 1949 (ie, 64 years ago), an African American Democratic State Senator in Florida convinced and cajoled the State Legislature to pass a law compelling the police to investigate lynchings, when they occur(red). In response, the Ku Klux Klan blew up his house, with him inside it.

I work with a woman who is from Indiana, just across the Ohio river from my wife's home town of Owensboro, Kentucky. In a discussion with this woman, I told her my wife's place of origin, and her response was "Oh yes, Owensboro! My father, when he was a child, used to go to Owensboro with his grandfather to watch the lynchings."

Hopefully the fallout from this trial will be minimal, and nobody will die. Hopefully Zimmerman and his family, and the jurors and defense attornies will not be targeted for retaliation. I'm sure Zimmerman would probably rethink things if he had this all to do over again. If there is relatively little retaliation, this will be a sign of progress, a good thing.

In my wife's hometown, about 15 years ago they started to get an invasion of illegal aliens, or at least Hispanic immigrants. It caused a stir in the town, because everyone was used to the black-white dynamic, and people playing their expected roles in society, and then there was a new set of ethnic people, the "brown people", who were upsetting the dynamics, and they were illegal, and they had a work ethic, etc. Most of the Hispanics have left as the economy has deteriorated, but they made a mark and helped to break up the historic social dynamic that was fading, but still quite engrained.

Through time, things get better, but looking at the Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman case from Utah, I can confidently state that most of us out West don't fully appreciate the context that exists in the South. We're lucky. We tend to see things without the slanted history.

Time heals. I hope Sanford, Florida can heal and move forward. Sometimes it seems like things will always fester, with differing sides keeping fuel for the past continuing. A coworker just got back from Lubbock, Texas, where she heard a few of the local rednecks referring to Obama as "our nigger president".

Sigh... things move forward. The KKK has been defeated, and we have an African American president, though the fires of yesterday still simmer, in places.

When we first got married, and we travelled back to Kentucky by car, and then on to New York & New Jersey, I was stunned at the reactions we got by being a mixed couple. That was 25 years ago, I know there has been progress, but at the time I remember thinking there was no way we could live east of Denver. Just no way.

I know things are better back east and in the South, but I'll take living in Utah, thanks.

[LA Ute]

This is the clearest, most honest evaluation of the Zimmerman prosecution I've seen.

The Embarrassment Of The George Zimmerman Verdict (http://criminaldefenseblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-embarrassment-of-george-zimmerman.html)

Someone summon UtahDan.

[concerned]

This is the clearest, most honest evaluation of the Zimmerman prosecution I've seen.

The Embarrassment Of The George Zimmerman Verdict (http://criminaldefenseblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-embarrassment-of-george-zimmerman.html)

Someone summon UtahDan.

Echoing the point that the prosecution knew it had a crappy case, I heard commentators yesterday (including Jeffrey Toobin) talking about how unusual it was--that the police officers testified almost as character witnesses for George Z. (how respectful he was, how cooperative he was, etc.), and that the prosecution did not try to cut off or limit the testimony. The commentators all said they had never seen anything like it. It was as if the prosecutors had to go through the motions, but didn't believe their case. In the absence of compelling, conclusive evidence one way or the other, it is hard to imagine how the prosescution could have proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Diehard Ute]

Reality is Florida law is very vague when it comes to "defending" yourself. It makes it very easy to shoot someone and claim self defense, especially if the shooter is the only one left to talk about it

The jurors came to the right legal verdict, but that doesn't make the accused "innocent". There's a reason it's called acquittal ;)

[U-Ute]

Reality is Florida law is very vague when it comes to "defending" yourself. It makes it very easy to shoot someone and claim self defense, especially if the shooter is the only one left to talk about it

The jurors came to the right legal verdict, but that doesn't make the accused "innocent". There's a reason it's called acquittal ;)

I agree. The real problem is the law, not the prosecution of it. It is vague and actually encourages some level of escalation. I mean, even the name of it sounds aggressive: Stand Your Ground.

[concerned]

Reality is Florida law is very vague when it comes to "defending" yourself. It makes it very easy to shoot someone and claim self defense, especially if the shooter is the only one left to talk about it

The jurors came to the right legal verdict, but that doesn't make the accused "innocent". There's a reason it's called acquittal ;)

That's the reason its called "not guilty."

[LA Ute]

The view of Jacob Sullum, a libertarian writer: (http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/14/sorry-the-zimmerman-case-still-has-nothi), who doesn't think the case had anything to do with "stand your ground:"


The story that George Zimmerman told about his fight with Trayvon Martin, the one that yesterday persuaded a jury to acquit him of second-degree murder and manslaughter, never had anything to do with the right to stand your ground when attacked in a public place. Knocked down and pinned to the ground by Martin, Zimmerman would not have had an opportunity to escape as Martin hit him and knocked his head against the concrete. The duty to retreat therefore was irrelevant. The initial decision not to arrest Zimmerman, former Sanford, Florida, Police Chief Bill Lee said last week (as paraphrased by CNN), “had nothing to do with Florida’s controversial ‘Stand Your Ground’ law” because “from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense.” And as The New York Times explained last month, “Florida’s Stand Your Ground law…has not been invoked in this case.” The only context in which “stand your ground” was mentioned during the trial was as part of the prosecution’s attempt to undermine Zimmerman’s credibility by arguing that he lied when he told Fox News host Sean Hannity that he had not heard of the law until after the shooting. During his rebuttal on Friday, prosecutor John Guy declared, “This case is not about standing your ground.”
Meanwhile, Alan Dershowitz has some, um, colorful comments about the prosecutor (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/14/alan_dershowitz_zimmerman_special_prosecutor_angel a_corey_should_be_disbarred.html):


ALAN DERSHOWITZ: Right, it is. She submitted an affidavit that was, if not perjurious, completely misleading. She violated all kinds of rules of the profession, and her conduct bordered on criminal conduct. She, by the way, has a horrible reputation in Florida. She's known for overcharging, she's known for being highly political. And in this case, of course she overcharged. Halfway through the trial she realized she wasn't going to get a second degree murder verdict, so she asked for a compromised verdict, for manslaughter. And then, she went even further and said that she was going to charge him with child abuse and felony murder. That was such a stretch that it goes beyond anything professionally responsible. She was among the most irresponsible prosecutors I've seen in 50 years of litigating cases, and believe me, I've seen good prosecutors, bad prosecutors, but rarely have I seen one as bad as this prosecutor, [Angela] Cory. (Huckabee, July 14, 2013)

Tavis Smiley adds to the conversation by claiming "You Can Stand Your Ground, Unless You're A Black Man (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/15/tavis_smiley_you_can_stand_your_ground_unless_your e_a_black_man.html)."



DAN ABRAMS: And I want to hear from the jurors, by the way, in this case, because we don't know just based on what we've heard now, whether these jurors believe George Zimmerman or not.

TAVIS SMILEY: Well, what we do know, Dan, though, at least as it appears to me, you can stand your ground, unless you're a black man.

ABRAMS: Well, look, we don't know that.

SMILEY: It appears to me, and I think many other persons in this country that you can in fact stand your ground unless you are a black man. George Zimmerman was allowed to stand his ground, Trayvon Martin was not allowed to stand his ground.

ABRAMS: There have been a lot of cases in Florida involving black-on-black crime, where similar results have occurred where no charges were filed. I'm not justifying it, I'm just saying that I do really want to focus on this case, and then I think we need to also have the discussion, but I don't know that when you connect the two, that it's necessarily fair in connection with this case.

But I am going to be very curious to hear what the jurors say.

[Scratch]

And, in a shocking turn of events, Tavis Smiley is an idiot.

[concerned]

The view of Jacob Sullum, a libertarian writer: (http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/14/sorry-the-zimmerman-case-still-has-nothi), who doesn't think the case had anything to do with "stand your ground:"


Meanwhile, Alan Dershowitz has some, um, colorful comments about the prosecutor (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/14/alan_dershowitz_zimmerman_special_prosecutor_angel a_corey_should_be_disbarred.html):



Tavis Smiley adds to the conversation by claiming "You Can Stand Your Ground, Unless You're A Black Man (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/15/tavis_smiley_you_can_stand_your_ground_unless_your e_a_black_man.html)."







Since one juror has now inked the first book deal, what they have to say may be more sensational than it would have been otherwise.

[Diehard Ute]

It's not the stand your ground law that makes Florida somewhat unique. It's their definition of what can constitute self defense. In Florida one can use deadly force not only if they're in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death, but also if they 'believe' they will be. How can you or I say what he believed? How can a jury?

Beyond that, the law says a citizen can use deadly force if they believe it is necessary to prevent the "imminent commission of a forcible felony".

Those things combined provide a pretty broad range of circumstances

[LA Ute]

And, in a shocking turn of events, Tavis Smiley is an idiot.

He's the guy who took on Bill Cosby for "selling out" African-Americans in this speech:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gh3_e3mDQ8

[Scratch]

He's the guy who took on Bill Cosby for "selling out" African-Americans in this speech:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Gh3_e3mDQ8

Oh, this is nothing new. Tavis has been confirming his idiocy for some time.

[GarthUte]

Oh, this is nothing new. Tavis has been confirming his idiocy for some time.

I've never even heard of the guy. I Binged his name and learned that I had no idea who this guy was. But I at least now know that he exists.

[pangloss]

LA, in your Jacob Sullum quote, he writes "... when attacked in a public place." That phrase ignores the circumstances. Zimmerman wasn't just innocently strolling down the street and Martin attacked him. Zimmerman was conducting a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch'. He is a wanna-be cop that was rejected by a podunk police force in Florida. That night he was playing cop and hunting for bad guys to satisfy his Wyatt Earp delusions.

I didn't follow the trial. I heard a recap of one witness's testimony that seemed to plant reasonable doubt in the story that Zimmerman coldly shot Martin. The witness indicated Martin was atop Zimmerman and that it was Zimmerman calling for help. I guess we'll hear from the jurors, but if that testimony was the least bit credible it may have driven the not guilty verdict. With my limited understanding of the facts, it raised reasonable doubt in my mind.

But a couple other things seem clear:

Two people were involved in a confrontation,

Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

Martin was returning from a store with candy.

Zimmerman presumed Martin was a criminal -- most likely because of his race and dress.

If the races were reversed and a black man in a truck with a gun had stopped, confronted and killed a non-black walking down the street the narrative would have been a whole lot different. The shooter would not have had a national defense fund, wouldn't have had the same level of legal counsel, and based on statistics, he would have probably been convicted.

If both Zimmerman and Martin were black and the incident occurred in a rough urban neighborhood I doubt there would have been more than a minute of Florida local news coverage and I have no doubt there would have been no national coverage.

Zimmerman is no hero. He is a delusional jackass who killed a teen-aged boy in an incident that he initiated. He had several chances to avoid escalating the incident including one when an officer told him to stay in his truck. He chose not to follow the order. Zimmerman is not innocent. He was found not guilty in court - there's a huge difference.

[LA Ute]

LA, in your Jacob Sullum quote, he writes "... when attacked in a public place." That phrase ignores the circumstances. Zimmerman wasn't just innocently strolling down the street and Martin attacked him. Zimmerman was conducting a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch'. He is a wanna-be cop that was rejected by a podunk police force in Florida. That night he was playing cop and hunting for bad guys to satisfy his Wyatt Earp delusions.

I didn't follow the trial. I heard a recap of one witness's testimony that seemed to plant reasonable doubt in the story that Zimmerman coldly shot Martin. The witness indicated Martin was atop Zimmerman and that it was Zimmerman calling for help. I guess we'll hear from the jurors, but if that testimony was the least bit credible it may have driven the not guilty verdict. With my limited understanding of the facts, it raised reasonable doubt in my mind.

But a couple other things seem clear:

Two people were involved in a confrontation,

Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

Martin was returning from a store with candy.

Zimmerman presumed Martin was a criminal -- most likely because of his race and dress.

If the races were reversed and a black man in a truck with a gun had stopped, confronted and killed a non-black walking down the street the narrative would have been a whole lot different. The shooter would not have had a national defense fund, wouldn't have had the same level of legal counsel, and based on statistics, he would have probably been convicted.

If both Zimmerman and Martin were black and the incident occurred in a rough urban neighborhood I doubt there would have been more than a minute of Florida local news coverage and I have no doubt there would have been no national coverage.

Zimmerman is no hero. He is a delusional jackass who killed a teen-aged boy in an incident that he initiated. He had several chances to avoid escalating the incident including one when an officer told him to stay in his truck. He chose not to follow the order. Zimmerman is not innocent. He was found not guilty in court - there's a huge difference.

He's surely no hero. This was a tragic situation that resulted in the loss of a teen-age boy's life. It was avoidable on multiple levels. I like this analysis:

http://criminaldefenseblog.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-embarrassment-of-george-zimmerman.html

As far as "stand your ground" goes, I was just agreeing with Sullum (and others, apparently) that this case wasn't about that. Like you, I didn't follow the case. IMO, if you aren't in the courtroom for every minute of testimony and don't know only what the jury knows, there's no sound second-guessing of a jury verdict. I rolled my eyes at the OJ verdict, but figured it was what it was.

[USS Utah]

I've been put off by the reaction of people on both sides of the political spectrum, not just to the verdict but to the entire case. I agree with Pangloss that Zimmerman was no hero -- a police buff who couldn't made the grade -- but neither was he the cold blooded killer others have portrayed him to be (I've already read comparisons to OJ getting away with murder). Murder 2 was a ridiculous overreach, and the prosecution couldn't make a case even for manslaughter, but none of this happens if Zimmerman stays in his car. His job was to watch and report, nothing more, nothing less.

[jrj84105]

I have some really stupid legal questions.

What if police rolled up on the scene and stopped the altercation before the gun came into play? Could either Zimmerman or Martin have been charged with and convicted of a crime? I would think disorderly conduct for both of them. Also, TV law says that if someone gets killed in the process of a crime, whether intended or not, it's murder. Is that even a real thing and if so, is it limited to violent crime or felonies?
TIA

edit: i guess the term is "felony murder rule" and Florida recognizes it but according to the merger doctrine, felony assault would be excluded from this argument. Is that correct?

[Diehard Ute]

I have some really stupid legal questions.

What if police rolled up on the scene and stopped the altercation before the gun came into play? Could either Zimmerman or Martin have been charged with and convicted of a crime? I would think disorderly conduct for both of them. Also, TV law says that if someone gets killed in the process of a crime, whether intended or not, it's murder. Is that even a real thing and if so, is it limited to violent crime or felonies?
TIA

edit: i guess the term is "felony murder rule" and Florida recognizes it but according to the merger doctrine, felony assault would be excluded from this argument. Is that correct?

There's no way to say if either would have been charged or convicted. Much depends on whether either wanted to be a victim, what their injuries were at that point and the circumstances found at that time.

The rule you're thinking of applies to things like robberies. If someone is killed by one person involved in a robbery, everyone can be charged with that murder even if they were not the person who caused the death.

It has no bearing on this case at all.

[GarthUte]

LA, in your Jacob Sullum quote, he writes "... when attacked in a public place." That phrase ignores the circumstances. Zimmerman wasn't just innocently strolling down the street and Martin attacked him. Zimmerman was conducting a self-appointed 'neighborhood watch'. He is a wanna-be cop that was rejected by a podunk police force in Florida. That night he was playing cop and hunting for bad guys to satisfy his Wyatt Earp delusions.

I didn't follow the trial. I heard a recap of one witness's testimony that seemed to plant reasonable doubt in the story that Zimmerman coldly shot Martin. The witness indicated Martin was atop Zimmerman and that it was Zimmerman calling for help. I guess we'll hear from the jurors, but if that testimony was the least bit credible it may have driven the not guilty verdict. With my limited understanding of the facts, it raised reasonable doubt in my mind.

But a couple other things seem clear:

Two people were involved in a confrontation,

Zimmerman was looking for trouble.

Martin was returning from a store with candy.

Zimmerman presumed Martin was a criminal -- most likely because of his race and dress.

If the races were reversed and a black man in a truck with a gun had stopped, confronted and killed a non-black walking down the street the narrative would have been a whole lot different. The shooter would not have had a national defense fund, wouldn't have had the same level of legal counsel, and based on statistics, he would have probably been convicted.

If both Zimmerman and Martin were black and the incident occurred in a rough urban neighborhood I doubt there would have been more than a minute of Florida local news coverage and I have no doubt there would have been no national coverage.

Zimmerman is no hero. He is a delusional jackass who killed a teen-aged boy in an incident that he initiated. He had several chances to avoid escalating the incident including one when an officer told him to stay in his truck. He chose not to follow the order. Zimmerman is not innocent. He was found not guilty in court - there's a huge difference.

Just curious - if you didn't follow the trial, how can you be so sure that Zimmerman was hunting Martin? How do you know that Zimmerman was looking for trouble?

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a hero, but I don't believe him to be the vigilante that you apparently believe him to be. I do agree with you in that Zimmerman is not innocent. His defense was that he killed Martin, but did so in self-defense. He admitted to killing Martin and therefore is not innocent.

One more thing to think about, had Martin not jumped Zimmerman, he would be alive today.

[USS Utah]

"No Regrets"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD83PmBeaW4

[Facepalm]

[GarthUte]

"No Regrets"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD83PmBeaW4

[Facepalm]

Zimmerman needs to just shut up and be grateful that he was found not guilty. Hannity needs to be slapped for keeping this topic alive.

It's over you two idiots.

[USS Utah]

Zimmerman needs to just shut up and be grateful that he was found not guilty. Hannity needs to be slapped for keeping this topic alive.

It's over you two idiots.

"Gun rights" and "Racism" is why people on both sides will keep this topic alive.

[LA Ute]

Just for fun, here's a report of some real Neighborhood Watch-type work:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/15/19489373-teens-on-bicycles-help-rescue-missing-5-year-old-girl?lite

[mUUser]

Zimmerman needs to just shut up and be grateful that he was found not guilty. Hannity needs to be slapped for keeping this topic alive.

It's over you two idiots.

may never be over for Zimmerman. In addition to civil and/or federal litigation, he could spend the better part of his life in hiding or looking over his shoulder.

[GarthUte]

may never be over for Zimmerman. In addition to civil and/or federal litigation, he could spend the better part of his life in hiding or looking over his shoulder.

I agree that it may never be over for Zimmerman, but he's not helping himself by making a statement like that, even if he believes it. Hannity needs to move on to something else. There's really no reason for him to provide a forum for Zimmerman to stick his foot in his mouth.

[Diehard Ute]

I agree that it may never be over for Zimmerman, but he's not helping himself by making a statement like that, even if he believes it. Hannity needs to move on to something else. There's really no reason for him to provide a forum for Zimmerman to stick his foot in his mouth.

Disagree with your last statement. In fact I believe he should be given every chance to stick his foot in his mouth

[GarthUte]

Disagree with your last statement. In fact I believe he should be given every chance to stick his foot in his mouth

Why?

[Diehard Ute]

Why?

Why should people try and keep him from doing so?

I want to see the real Zimmerman, not one that's protected by the media.

[GarthUte]

Why should people try and keep him from doing so?

I want to see the real Zimmerman, not one that's protected by the media.

Protected by the media? The media that was ignored everything else that's going on in the world to paint Zimmerman as a bloodthirsty monster who targeted, stalked and gunned down the innocent Trayvon Martin?

Zimmerman was found not guilty. He's not innocent, but he went through a trial that was politically charged by people like Obama and Sharpton and then found not guilty. People want his head on a platter now despite the fact that the state of Florida had its chance to send him away and blew it. Anything that happens to him now away from the courts would be nothing but vigilantism. As a police officer, would you condone any violence that comes his way?

[Diehard Ute]

Protected by the media? The media that was ignored everything else that's going on in the world to paint Zimmerman as a bloodthirsty monster who targeted, stalked and gunned down the innocent Trayvon Martin?

Zimmerman was found not guilty. He's not innocent, but he went through a trial that was politically charged by people like Obama and Sharpton and then found not guilty. People want his head on a platter now despite the fact that the state of Florida had its chance to send him away and blew it. Anything that happens to him now away from the courts would be nothing but vigilantism. As a police officer, would you condone any violence that comes his way?

Said nothing about violence. I said let's hear what he has to say. You think he shouldn't be given the chance to speak because he'll put his foot in his mouth, if that's what he wants to do let him.

I don't have a side in this fight (which you obviously do). If people aren't smart enough to shut up, we certainly shouldn't do it for them.

[LA Ute]

By the way, George Zimmerman’s parents are in hiding because of all the death threats (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/by-the-way-george-zimmermans-parents-are-in-hiding-because-of-all-the-death-threats/)There's something quite wrong with that.

Meanwhile, Morning Joe explains the whole thing for us:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX746aLrgpg&feature=player_embedded#at=43

[Ma'ake]

Meanwhile, Morning Joe explains the whole thing for us:


Joe Scarborough himself may have permanently sentenced himself as a Republican outcast by pointing out the negative electoral ramifications of the conservative media offending blacks. It looks like Michael Steele, the former GOP party chairman, may have also exiled himself by pointing out that racism still exists and is a serious problem.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/scarborough-blasts-conservative-media-dont-antagonize-black-voters-just-because-you-hate-al-sharpton/

[Diehard Ute]

By the way, George Zimmerman’s parents are in hiding because of all the death threats (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/by-the-way-george-zimmermans-parents-are-in-hiding-because-of-all-the-death-threats/)There's something quite wrong with that.

]

There is.

Of course this is the society who forced a Cubs fan into hiding for possibly interfering with a foul ball.

Our country certainly isn't without warts, and the threats after any "public" event are some of the worst.

[Ma'ake]

Death threats are nothing new, they're just meant to intimidate, which is what Zimmerman's parents are caving into. Cowards! (Just kidding)

When I worked at the SLC airport we had a couple of flights that had had bomb threats, one was carrying some women's softball team back home from Arizona where they apparently pissed off somebody.

Who here was at the Utah-Arizona basketball game where they called in a bomb threat when the Utes were winning, vs Herman Harris & the mighty Wildcats, coached by Freddy the Fox Snowden?

I'll always hate Al-Qaeda because they took away one of the great American revenge tactics, the bomb threat.

[LA Ute]

Every case is different but this is a striking contrast to the Zimmerman case:

Jury Finds Roderick Scott Not Guilty (http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/490926/jury-finds-roderick-scott-not-guilty/)

[Mano]

Every case is different but this is a striking contrast to the Zimmerman case:

Jury Finds Roderick Scott Not Guilty (http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/490926/jury-finds-roderick-scott-not-guilty/)



The laws need to be changed. I understand people using guns to defend their homes and families, but the law should not protect these guys that are initiating the confrontations and then getting scared and shooting the people that they confront.

[LA Ute]

The laws need to be changed. I understand people using guns to defend their homes and families, but the law should not protect these guys that are initiating the confrontations and then getting scared and shooting the people that they confront.

I like the idea of people having access to guns for self-defense. I do not like the idea of citizen "cop wannabes" packing guns around and trying to enforce the law in their neighborhoods. Both Zimmerman and the guy in this story acted foolishly and dangerously, IMO. They initiated confrontations and could both easily be the ones who are dead.

[Rocker Ute]

Through time, things get better, but looking at the Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman case from Utah, I can confidently state that most of us out West don't fully appreciate the context that exists in the South. We're lucky. We tend to see things without the slanted history.

...

Sigh... things move forward. The KKK has been defeated, and we have an African American president, though the fires of yesterday still simmer, in places.



It is funny, growing up in Utah I thought that the KKK was largely defeated as you mentioned and only pockets in the very backwoods of our country did it still exist. Then as a missionary in Texas I frequently drove past a Kustom Kar Kovers and the Koffee Kup Kafe (name since changed) and had a realization that the KKK was still very much alive and well in the South and Southwest.

I'm removed from that again and forget the context of what this is based in, particularly the South. Not a commentary on this case, other than to say that you are exactly right, the racial divide is very deep in many parts of this nation still.

[LA Ute]

The Onion wades in:

George Zimmerman Wins Florida State Lottery (http://www.theonion.com/articles/george-zimmerman-wins-florida-state-lottery,33139/)

[Rocker Ute]

This whole thing has been interesting to me because I feel like I've been on both sides to some extent as to what happened. As a teenaged boy being chased down by over-exuberant neighborhood watch people, and also as a neighbor who wants reduced crime in my neighborhood.

Instance one involved me and my friends walking home late one night and a guy with a neighborhood watch magnet on the side of his car and a spotlight stops us and demands to know what we are doing, where we are going and asks to see IDs. Knowing I hadn't done anything wrong, but also as a 16yo fearing that I'd get in trouble with my parents about something, I refused to give him my ID or tell him who I was. He tried to intimidate us, pushed one of my buddies into the shrubs but ultimately we just walked away while he called the cops who came by, talked to us for 30 seconds and moved on.

Had we been hot heads it could have turned out badly. I have no idea if he was packing heat, but as a kid I thought I was pretty tough and actually still think my 16yo self could have taken him in a fight. While we walked away, we were all talking about what we'd do if he showed up again. Fortunately I guess, he didn't.

Now in my neighborhood as an adult we've had a number of break-ins. I've called the police on a couple of occasions (one which I'll share) and was met with general apathy and even irritation. I understand the frustration of trying to do what is right and being ignored.

One most recent incident involved me coming home late at night and as I turned into my driveway my lights hit a guy who was standing under my daughter's window (the window is elevated up around 6' high, curtains were closed, so I don't think he was peeping - still don't know what he was doing). He quickly ran off into my neighbor's yard and hid behind some cars. I called the police and kept watching where the guy went. His friend came down the street with a 12 pack of beer and emboldened by someone being with him, they both started walking down the street drinking. I stayed back but kept my lights trained on them while I waited for the police to come. After some time, the two go agitated with me shining my lights on them and started to confront me, so I backed off and watched from a further distance.

After a long while a police car came rolling through at about 25mph and slowed to 20mph when he got near my house and kept rolling. I flashed my lights at him to get him to stop. When I told him what was going on, he asked me what I wanted him to do. He claimed that he couldn't do anything about trespassing if he didn't see it himself (not true) and that there was nothing he could do about the drinking unless one of them was passed out (also not true). I asked him if he could at least find out why the one guy was hanging out underneath my daughter's window. He begrudgingly agreed to go chat with them and that was that, never heard anything again.

Since then the Zimmerman thing happened, and with that and confronted by general apathy from law enforcement (and no this isn't a reflection on you Diehard, I've had other cop buddies disgusted by his behavior) I've kind of come to the conclusion that there is little to nothing I can do to help keep my neighborhood safe. I've stopped looking around basically.

A couple of things I guess I've learned though from this. First, in both instances because at least one of the parties was willing to back down or not escalate (specifically me) nothing happened of harm although it easily could have. I think in the Zimmerman case the same thing could be said. Had Zimmerman stayed in his car... had Martin just ran home or to someplace safe if he felt threatened... had neither been emboldened by having a gun, or getting in routine fights at school this story would have been as noteworthy as mine above (in other words, not noteworthy).

Secondly, you are in a hard spot as a citizen who is interested in keeping a neighborhood safe. You have no training, you have little support, and you have little you can really do. Some guys want this to be a replacement of the military of law enforcement service. Me, I just want a safe neighborhood where I don't have to worry about my 90-year-old widow neighbor being attacked in a break-in or something.

Thirdly, as a kid I should have recognized better that a bunch of teenaged boys out after dark clowning around in the neighborhood would make most people nervous.

But what a sad thing... one life lost, many lives ruined because not one person could back down. Now it is fodder for politically motivated groups to further divide instead of unify.

[pangloss]

Just curious - if you didn't follow the trial, how can you be so sure that Zimmerman was hunting Martin? How do you know that Zimmerman was looking for trouble?

I'm not saying Zimmerman is a hero, but I don't believe him to be the vigilante that you apparently believe him to be. I do agree with you in that Zimmerman is not innocent. His defense was that he killed Martin, but did so in self-defense. He admitted to killing Martin and therefore is not innocent.

One more thing to think about, had Martin not jumped Zimmerman, he would be alive today.


Fair point, I plead guilty, I did not follow the trial but I have read a bit about the incident. I jumped to a conclusion about Zimmerman without knowing enough to draw that conclusion. A few things I heard & read -- he was the neighborhood watch captain in a gated community and was rejected as a cop - I don't know why he was rejected. I jumped to the conclusion that he is a delusional Wyatt Earp wanna-be. I suspect that's probably true but I have little basis for it.

A couple inescapable facts remain - Martin was walking down the street and had every right to be where he was. 'Walking while black' is not probable cause or even reasonable suspicion justifying Zimmerman's challenging him. Following him around the neighborhood in his truck was not justified. Getting out of his truck after the police told him not to was reckless and resulted in a death. They should have charged him with manslaughter, not second degree murder.

[USS Utah]

A couple inescapable facts remain - Martin was walking down the street and had every right to be where he was. 'Walking while black' is not probable cause or even reasonable suspicion justifying Zimmerman's challenging him. Following him around the neighborhood in his truck was not justified. Getting out of his truck after the police told him not to was reckless and resulted in a death. They should have charged him with manslaughter, not second degree murder.

I'm not sure those are inescapable facts.

Zimmerman is driving through his neighborhood, which has experienced some recent burglaries, and sees somebody he does not know. He follows in his truck and calls the police. Martin proceeds down a sidewalk between buildings, where Zimmerman cannot go in his vehicle. He gets out of his truck and walks across to another street. He tells the operator he is trying to follow and the operator says "We don't need you to do that." Note, this is after he got out of his vehicle. He says, "Okay," and starts walking back to his truck. Meanwhile, Martin, after going up on the sidewalk, takes the turn that takes him to the back of his relative's house. According to his friends, Jeantel, he actually reached his destination. See photo below.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/222414_267004046772459_783483294_n.jpg

Edit: I don't know how accurate the lines on that map are. I have seen or read other presentations suggesting Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow Martin down the street, but why walk when you can drive? One presentation shows them both traveling down the street parallel to the building where Martin's relative lived, but if so, why would Martin pass his destination to continue up the alley to the location of the altercation?

[jrj84105]

The laws need to be changed. I understand people using guns to defend their homes and families, but the law should not protect these guys that are initiating the confrontations and then getting scared and shooting the people that they confront.
Agree.

[USS Utah]

What I find so interesting is that people on both sides of the political spectrum are convinced that they know what happened that night. But I am certain that I don't know, and there are so many conflicting accounts and claims that I question whether it is even possible to know what happened that night. It appears to me that people on both sides have been convinced by arguments of outrage by people on both sides who have their own reasons for stirring up anger.

After my last post on this thread I went and watched a couple of episodes of Law and Order, by coincidence or happy accident, the second episode was "Subterranean Homeboy Blues." Law and Order often promoted episodes as "ripped from the headlines" and this episode on the Bernhard Goetz incident. The more things change, the more they stay the same. You can find this episode online for streaming, so if you get a chance, I would recommend watching it.

A white woman shoots two black men in a crowded subway, paralyzing one and killing the other. The shooting at first appears to be self-defense, but further investigation shows that the motive may be revenge. It is learned that the shooter sat down beside the two men while everyone else in the subway car moved away from them. The first twist comes when it is learned that the dead man has a substantial record. When the paralyzed victim cannot control himself in court, a woman comes forward to accuse the dead victim of raping her.

[GarthUte]

Fair point, I plead guilty, I did not follow the trial but I have read a bit about the incident. I jumped to a conclusion about Zimmerman without knowing enough to draw that conclusion. A few things I heard & read -- he was the neighborhood watch captain in a gated community and was rejected as a cop - I don't know why he was rejected. I jumped to the conclusion that he is a delusional Wyatt Earp wanna-be. I suspect that's probably true but I have little basis for it.

A couple inescapable facts remain - Martin was walking down the street and had every right to be where he was. 'Walking while black' is not probable cause or even reasonable suspicion justifying Zimmerman's challenging him. Following him around the neighborhood in his truck was not justified. Getting out of his truck after the police told him not to was reckless and resulted in a death. They should have charged him with manslaughter, not second degree murder.

I agree that Martin had the right to be walking down the street because his dad lived in that community. But one of the few times that I watched the coverage of the trial, it became known that Zimmerman called 911 to report what he thought looked like a suspicious person in a hoodie walking around the neighborhood. Dispatch asked about the race of Martin; Zimmerman didn't say a suspicious black person was walking around the neighborhood.
I have no problem that Zimmerman got in his truck and followed what he thought was a suspicious person.

The dispatcher told Zimmerman that he didn't have to get out of the truck, not to stay in the truck. Zimmerman told dispatch that he had lost sight of Martin anyway and that was when he was jumped by Martin.

The prosecution eventually did add a manslaughter charge, but that didn't happen until after it was obvious that they were never going to get a conviction for 2nd degree murder. But it's my understanding that charges never should have been brought in the first place because there was never enough evidence for any kind of a conviction. After a few political people injected themselves into the case, the state of Florida brought in a state prosecutor that had no jurisdiction to try the case. The shooting took place in the 18th judicial circuit and the prosecutor, Angela Corey, is from the 4th judicial circuit.

[USS Utah]

Bernhard Goetz, The Subway Gunman:

http://flattopshistorywarpolitics.yuku.com/topic/2773?page=1#.Ueg46KzJqE4

[LA Ute]

Washington Post headline:

What motivates a lawyer to defend a Tsarnaev, a Castro or a Zimmerman? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-motivates-a-lawyer-to-defend-a-tsarnaev-a-castro-or-a-zimmerman/2013/07/25/e81737e8-f2e5-11e2-ae43-b31dc363c3bf_story.html)

Um, which of those things is not like the other? Look, I think Zimmerman is pretty much a dummy who foolishly started some events in motion that led to the needless death of a teenager who, whatever his personal peccadilloes might have been, had a whole life ahead of him. But comparing Zimmerman to a mass murderer and a notorious communist dictator? This exemplifies how ridiculous the news media's excesses are in this case.

[GarthUte]

Washington Post headline:

What motivates a lawyer to defend a Tsarnaev, a Castro or a Zimmerman? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-motivates-a-lawyer-to-defend-a-tsarnaev-a-castro-or-a-zimmerman/2013/07/25/e81737e8-f2e5-11e2-ae43-b31dc363c3bf_story.html)

Um, which of those things is not like the other? Look, I think Zimmerman is pretty much a dummy who foolishly started some events in motion that led to the needless death of a teenager who, whatever his personal peccadilloes might have been, had a whole life ahead of him. But comparing Zimmerman to a mass murderer and a notorious communist dictator? This exemplifies how ridiculous the news media's excesses are in this case.

I don't think that's the correct Castro. I think it's the kidnapper/rapist from Cleveland that held the three girls captive for the last decade.

But you're correct. Zimmerman is nowhere near as bad as the other two.

[LA Ute]

I don't think that's the correct Castro. I think it's the kidnapper/rapist from Cleveland that held the three girls captive for the last decade.

But you're correct. Zimmerman is nowhere near as bad as the other two.

Even worse, IMO. An even more obvious monster.

[USS Utah]

I think this story demonstrates just how ridiculous this has become:

http://www.ibtimes.com/george-zimmerman-conspiracy-theories-did-he-really-rescue-family-it-was-not-set-or-staged-mark-omara