The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

[Scratch]

There's nothing about what I said that suggests values aren't currently based on reason. On the contrary. Universities and scientists are among the arbiters I cited.

This is MW's "full definition" of bigotry: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Religious belief in absurd or hateful things doesn't qualify as ethnic group. Sorry. One of the better part of Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion" is his rant against the popular belief that religious belief gets a pass from the usual critique of absurd or hateful beliefs. I do think that that is changing, and religious belief is now held to similar standards as other beliefs that don't bear the religious armor.

You don't need to go anywhere near this far. I share a lot of the same values as TB, but he's acting silly to chalk up any anti-BYU sentiments to inherently negative bigotry or prejudice. Look at your definition for bigotry (which is much better than his definition); bigotry requires regarding the members of another group with "hatred and intolerance." If B12 presidents (or PAC-12 presidents) say they don't want to associate with BYU because they disagree with BYU's positions on LGBT issues, that alone certainly doesn't rise to "hatred and intolerance." You can disagree with someone or something and elect to not associate with them without having that constitute "hatred and intolerance." Seattle, you don't have to stake the extreme position here (that its OK to act with hatred and intolerance to someone who espouses LDS values) to discredit TB's narrative of pernicious bigotry and prejudice.

[tooblue]

You don't need to go anywhere near this far. I share a lot of the same values as TB, but he's acting silly to chalk up any anti-BYU sentiments to inherently negative bigotry or prejudice. Look at your definition for bigotry (which is much better than his definition); bigotry requires regarding the members of another group with "hatred and intolerance." If B12 presidents (or PAC-12 presidents) say they don't want to associate with BYU because they disagree with BYU's positions on LGBT issues, that alone certainly doesn't rise to "hatred and intolerance." You can disagree with someone or something and elect to not associate with them without having that constitute "hatred and intolerance." Seattle, you don't have to stake the extreme position here (that its OK to act with hatred and intolerance to someone who espouses LDS values) to discredit TB's narrative of pernicious bigotry and prejudice.

I appreciate you feel I'm acting silly, but my position is based on personal experience, specifically in arts related academia. My use of bigotry is accurate, especially if you replace the term "hatred" with "fear" ... and intolerance, which I have first hand experience with. But in the larger sense, with regards to this discussion, the term prejudice is perhaps more accurate, because by all accounts the writers of the LGBT letter were acting from a position of ignorance. BYU was perceived only as an easy target, and it is naive to believe it was not, in part guided by hatred. EDIT: Also, I have experienced that hatred face-to-face. It's very real.

[sancho]

If B12 presidents (or PAC-12 presidents) say they don't want to associate with BYU because they disagree with BYU's positions on LGBT issues, that alone certainly doesn't rise to "hatred and intolerance."

True, but let's not forget that BYU failed to get enough yes votes even before the letter. In the end, if BYU misses out, it will be due to their lack of success on the field and poor choice of location. If brother brigham had opened the university in Adam Ondi Aman, the cougars would be in for sure.

[SeattleUte]

Seattle, you don't have to stake the extreme position here (that its OK to act with hatred and intolerance to someone who espouses LDS values) to discredit TB's narrative of pernicious bigotry and prejudice.

Of course I agree with you up to this sentence. I am not saying that. Here is where I actually agree with too blue. He was somewhat vague in his earlier post that elicited my first response. But what he said essentially is that it's not just about LGTB--the P12 and the B12 have issues about a whole host of factors that together comprise essentially what BYU stands for--BYU's reputation.

Long before a majority of Americans supported same sex marriage, same sex marriage was a constitutional right, or Proposition 8 backfired on the LDS Church, BYU had no chance of being admitted to the Pac 12. And quite obviously it had nothing to do with fan base, access to media outlets, or football tradition. You can identify the factors I'm talking about in terms of discrete policies or events--BYU's expulsion of the Rodin statue of JTB, the lack of academic freedom (if today a professor started writing and speaking advocating for LGTB he'd be fired), the bias for Mormons as reflected by the tuition, the failure of BYU if not the LDS Church to reckon with its and the mother church's racist past (I bet many professors at southern universities have written a great deal lamenting and condemning Jim Crow), the explicitly atavistic doctrines regarding women, the biblical/scriptural literalism, the bigotry against LGTB, even Sunday no play, rejection of federal funds for research, and the lack of independence of the university from the Church. I could go on.

The last factor I listed differentiates BYU from any other religious school in the country, except maybe Catholic university. LDS GAs sit on BYU's board. BYU is more dependent on LDS funding than Utah is on state funding. The Catholic Church does not own Notre Dame or Georgetown; but the BYU is simply an LDS Church asset. Yet the LDS Church is uniquely hierarchical--like Catholicism. BYU is a department or a part of this hierarchy. BYU's bigotry against LGTB didn't matter so much ten years ago, and it's just one of many factors now.

The foregoing adds up to BYU's character, makes it a lot different than any other high profile university in the country, and what it is holistically, and makes what BYU stands for strongly at odds with the prevailing values in Austin, Lawrence, Norman, or Ames. With respect to the Pac 12, this now is obvious (it was always obvious to me). Why else did the Pac 12 take Utah and not even consider BYU? BYU fans have thought that because Big 12 schools come from red states where religion still is vital it would be different. But what they overlook is that what matters is the culture at the universities. University culture tends not to be so different from campus to campus. The University of Utah or the University of Texas or Stanford or Berkely are a lot more alike than the populations that surround them. This is why BYU won't get a Big 12 offer. And I submit it's values and not bigotry.

[Rocker Ute]

@Seattle, spend some time in the south and you'll realize that the B12 universities are accustomed to dealing with racist pasts and presents. Even among academia in the south this is not a disqualifier. Having spent significant time in B12 territory I was shocked by the blatant racism that still exists. Where I thought the KKK was limited to the back woods of Mississippi, it is alive and well in major metropolitan areas in Texas, Oklahoma etc.

I almost guarantee that no B12 school is critical of BYU on that matter.

Aside from that, I agree that BYU has too much baggage. Part of that is Mormons don't worship "tha same Jesus that ah do..."

@tooblue we appreciate your art acedemia experiences but you act as if no one else has exposure to LGBT issues, experiences and people.




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[sancho]

Why else did the Pac 12 take Utah and not even consider BYU?

The could have only been one team from Utah, and only one team had a pair of bcs wins. Maybe the factors you mention would have been important under different circumstances, but they never even came up.

[SeattleUte]

The could have only been one team from Utah, and only one team had a pair of bcs wins. Maybe the factors you mention would have been important under different circumstances, but they never even came up.

You're such a homer. This post is embarrassing. I guarantee Utah getting the gold ring and BYU not even being in the discussion wasn't because of a perceived edge in Utah's football tradition.


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[SeattleUte]

@Seattle, spend some time in the south and you'll realize that the B12 universities are accustomed to dealing with racist pasts and presents. Even among academia in the south this is not a disqualifier. Having spent significant time in B12 territory I was shocked by the blatant racism that still exists. Where I thought the KKK was limited to the back woods of Mississippi, it is alive and well in major metropolitan areas in Texas, Oklahoma etc.

I almost guarantee that no B12 school is critical of BYU on that matter.

Aside from that, I agree that BYU has too much baggage. Part of that is Mormons don't worship "tha same Jesus that ah do..."

@tooblue we appreciate your art acedemia experiences but you act as if no one else has exposure to LGBT issues, experiences and people.




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No doubt there is a lot of racism in those states. But the universities perceive themselves as islands of enlightenment in this sea of barbarism. The universities have reckoned with their own institutional racist history and continue to do so with respect to that of the population that surrounds them.

You suggest that the universities are forgiving of BYU's racist baggage because racism still prevails around the universities. I disagree. The universities don't consider themselves as racist; they regard themselves as having expiated themselves. The biggest and most influential player here is Texas. Have you ever been to Austin? It's like the Bay Area.


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[sancho]

You're such a homer. This post is embarrassing. I guarantee Utah getting the gold ring and BYU not even being in the discussion wasn't because of a perceived edge in Utah's football tradition.


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Ah, but I guarantee it was. My guarantee as a homer is worth as much as yours as a hater.

I said nothing about tradition. They needed one Utah team. There was one Utah team that had recently competed for a national title. It was easy. There was only one columnist in the world who even stopped to think "wait, why Utah instead of BYU?" and his name was Dick Harmon. Everyone outside of Provo saw the news and said, "yeah, makes sense."

[SeattleUte]

Ah, but I guarantee it was. My guarantee as a homer is worth as much as yours as a hater.

I said nothing about tradition. They needed one Utah team. There was one Utah team that had recently competed for a national title. It was easy. There was only one columnist in the world who even stopped to think "wait, why Utah instead of BYU?" and his name was Dick Harmon. Everyone outside of Provo saw the news and said, "yeah, makes sense."

I'm not going to wade into this debate with you except to say this. Someone who loves Utah ought to be more proud about the real reason the Pac 12 wanted Utah--the reason I have identified--than the football team having won two BCS games. If you disagree, your values are lacking.

[sancho]

I'm not going to wade into this debate with you except to say this. Someone who loves Utah ought to be more proud about the real reason the Pac 12 wanted Utah--the reason I have identified--than the football team having won two BCS games. If you disagree, your values are lacking.

I've never been very good at values.

There's no way Utah gets in without football success. The fact that Utah is a great university made the decision all the easier. It was a great situation for the Pac. Who knows what they would have done if we had never had 2004 and 2008? Maybe they don't expand at all. Maybe they add boise.

Football success may or may not be a sufficient condition, but it is definitely a necessary condition.

[SeattleUte]

I've never been very good at values.

There's no way Utah gets in without football success. The fact that Utah is a great university made the decision all the easier. It was a great situation for the Pac. Who knows what they would have done if we had never had 2004 and 2008? Maybe they don't expand at all. Maybe they add boise.

Football success may or may not be a sufficient condition, but it is definitely a necessary condition.

Really? Is that why the Big 10 wanted Rutgers. Regardless, now you're evading the issue.

As I've said to BYU fans for many years, it's the CULTure.

Also, anytime anyone mentions Boise, especially with respect to the Pac 12, their cred is automatically gone.

[sancho]

Really? Is that why the Big 10 wanted Rutgers. Regardless, now you're evading the issue.

You are right. Rutgers proves that football is not a necessary condition. I guess it's football/large market.

You may be right about BYU and culture. All I know is that it never came to that for the Pac. They never had to spend a second thinking about it because they already had a no-drawback team in Utah that was better.

[SeattleUte]

You are right. Rutgers proves that football is not a necessary condition. I guess it's football/large market.

You may be right about BYU and culture. All I know is that it never came to that for the Pac. They never had to spend a second thinking about it because they already had a no-drawback team in Utah that was better.

yeah, it's going to be a bit harder for the B12 to explain. Like "the others weren't the best fit". Or, "geographically, we wanted to stay within our current footprint and give West Virginia a natural partner." No Sunday play provides a good euphemism--"we just didn't want football only". But they won't even have to go that far.

[SeattleUte]

You are right. Rutgers proves that football is not a necessary condition. I guess it's football/large market.

You may be right about BYU and culture. All I know is that it never came to that for the Pac. They never had to spend a second thinking about it because they already had a no-drawback team in Utah that was better.

BYU may have a bigger market than Rutgers.

[Rocker Ute]

No doubt there is a lot of racism in those states. But the universities perceive themselves as islands of enlightenment in this sea of barbarism. The universities have reckoned with their own institutional racist history and continue to do so with respect to that of the population that surrounds them.

You suggest that the universities are forgiving of BYU's racist baggage because racism still prevails around the universities. I disagree. The universities don't consider themselves as racist; they regard themselves as having expiated themselves. The biggest and most influential player here is Texas. Have you ever been to Austin? It's like the Bay Area.


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I actually used to live in Austin and was within blocks of the UT campus and would frequently go on campus, which is why I say what I say. As progressive and liberal Austin is as a town (and it is one of the few places on earth I would consider living) there is a underlying tolerance and acceptance of racism. I remember being shocked by this because I felt like (and still do) that I was exposed to far less open and institutional racism in Utah than I was there. Seriously.

In fact, I walked past the Jefferson Davis statue mentioned below at least once a week. That these statues are still up on campus (and the hubbub surrounding proposals to move them) should tell you everything you need to know: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...814-story.html

Many of these B12 schools, including its largest and most influential are not the islands you say they are.


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[Applejack]

I agree with SU on this: BYU's culture made the PACs decision easy and it will make the BIG 12 take a long pause. I also agree that the schools of the BIG 12 are not like the voters in those states. With that said, they seem more open to a formerly racist and currently homophobic university than the PAC.

[SeattleUte]

I actually used to live in Austin and was within blocks of the UT campus and would frequently go on campus, which is why I say what I say. As progressive and liberal Austin is as a town (and it is one of the few places on earth I would consider living) there is a underlying tolerance and acceptance of racism. I remember being shocked by this because I felt like (and still do) that I was exposed to far less open and institutional racism in Utah than I was there. Seriously.

In fact, I walked past the Jefferson Davis statue mentioned below at least once a week. That these statues are still up on campus (and the hubbub surrounding proposals to move them) should tell you everything you need to know: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...814-story.html

Many of these B12 schools, including its largest and most influential are not the islands you say they are.


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I am sure that the decision-makers at Texas and their true constituents--trustees, faculty (including a number of Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, former or current Court of Appeals judges, Supreme Court clerks, you get the picture), and administrators--regard themselves of the same mindset about race as their counterparts in the Pac 12. They do have a different challenge with their forum state's racist past and unique residual racism (and homophobia). No doubt they regard themselves as benighted Texas's salvation in this regard. They certainly care most about their school's reputation, and don't want to feed misperceptions such as you have here expressed. As for the Davis statue, I'll refer you to Princeton's dilemma about Wilson statues and similar problems at campuses all over the country.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Rocker, what is your time frame in Austin? After you talking about your mission? That was a quarter century ago, and much can happen in that kind of time frame.

At the time we were missionaries, our own church was not yet 15 years removed from allowing black men to hold the priesthood and for black women and men to get their temple endowments (and thus potentially qualify for the highest level of heaven).

I am not saying racism and bigotry no longer exist in this nation, because we still have intense problems in that regard (see the DOJ's report the Baltimore PD).

Besides, there are plenty of great reasons to exclude the Jar Jar Binks of fanbases from the adult table.

[Rocker Ute]

I am sure that the decision-makers at Texas and their true constituents--trustees, faculty (including a number of Nobel Prize winners, Pulitzer Prize winners, former or current Court of Appeals judges, Supreme Court clerks, you get the picture), and administrators--regard themselves of the same mindset about race as their counterparts in the Pac 12. They do have a different challenge with their forum state's racist past and unique residual racism (and homophobia). No doubt they regard themselves as benighted Texas's salvation in this regard. They certainly care most about their school's reputation, and don't want to feed misperceptions such as you have here expressed. As for the Davis statue, I'll refer you to Princeton's dilemma about Wilson statues and similar problems at campuses all over the country.

LOL. It would seem despite their benighted savior status they do drag their heels a bit when it comes to celebrating confederate heroes on campus and public outcry against it. We've all got our vices I suppose. You need to visit the South sometime. None of what you say undermines what I originally said, in that if there is a conference who is looking the other way regarding race issues of 40 years ago, it is the B12, lead slightly by the SEC.

[NorthwestUteFan]

As for the Davis statue, I'll refer you to Princeton's dilemma about Wilson statues and similar problems at campuses all over the country.

FWIW, there is a wonderful discussion of the Princeton/Wilson situation on the Malcolm Gladwell podcast posted by MRD a few pages ago.

[Rocker Ute]

Rocker, what is your time frame in Austin? After you talking about your mission? That was a quarter century ago, and much can happen in that kind of time frame.

At the time we were missionaries, our own church was not yet 15 years removed from allowing black men to hold the priesthood and for black women and men to get their temple endowments (and thus potentially qualify for the highest level of heaven).

I am not saying racism and bigotry no longer exist in this nation, because we still have intense problems in that regard (see the DOJ's report the Baltimore PD).

Besides, there are plenty of great reasons to exclude the Jar Jar Binks of fanbases from the adult table.

I'm not as old as you, it would seem, but no this was not my mission and it was about 10 years ago (and I almost moved back about a year and a half ago). Racism is alive and well in the South. Let us not forget these:

running-scared.jpg

Look, you guys need to understand how racism works in these sort of places. Nobody is burning crosses on the UT campus, nobody is refusing service to black people, or not attending classes with them. It is more of a wink and a nod sort of a thing that is hard to describe until you experience. Now certainly other parts of Texas it is blatant (see the Koffee Kup Kafe in Killeen TX, or Kustom Kar Kovers in San Antonio). But I'll admit that before experiencing this sort of 'old boy wink and nod' deal, I thought that racism like that and the KKK was long since dead and isolated to small pockets in the back woods somewhere in Miss. It simply isn't.

Does that mean I think all of Seattle's cited intellectuals are racist? No, not at all. But there is a survival culture of looking the other way, and the good-old-boy club is alive and well and donating copious amounts of money to various UT programs and sports. Denying BYU acceptance to the B12 because of race issues would be the height of hypocrisy.

[sancho]

I agree with SU on this: BYU's culture made the PACs decision easy

Utah made their decision easy. They wanted three things: a decent football program, a decent research university, and a decent media market. There was only one school in the west that meet all three. Easy peasy. No one questioned the decision because it was obvious.

Now in some alternate universe in which Utah football was horrible, the Pac would have had a difficult decision as no other candidate met all the desired criteria. In that universe, the BYU culture thing surely would have entered the conversation.

[Rocker Ute]

Besides, there are plenty of great reasons to exclude the Jar Jar Binks of fanbases from the adult table.

I should say, this is really the point, there are lots of reasons to exclude BYU, but the racism of the LDS church 40 years ago isn't going to be one of them, particularly when their own baggage on the subject matter is so current.

[sancho]

You need to visit the South sometime. None of what you say undermines what I originally said, in that if there is a conference who is looking the other way regarding race issues of 40 years ago, it is the B12, lead slightly by the SEC.

I lived in the south for ten years, and I lived in Wisconsin for one. I heard far more racist comments in that one year in Wisconsin than I did in my southern decade. I guess everyone's experiences differ.

[NorthwestUteFan]

The only reason I mentioned racism was because tooblue claimed that 'bigotry' was the reason byu would be kept out. The very use of that word snacks of the unbearable Cougar hubris we have come to expect from that fanbase.

[SeattleUte]

I should say, this is really the point, there are lots of reasons to exclude BYU, but the racism of the LDS church 40 years ago isn't going to be one of them, particularly when their own baggage on the subject matter is so current.

Nobody will say, in their deliberations, that BYU is racist or it has failed to reckon with or apologize for 40-year old racism. But this history is part of BYU's makeup that comprises its reputation that I've described. It's the BYU fan's eternal burden. (By the way, the South has been reckoning with its racism in poignant ways all along. It's why some of our greatest literary treasures have been issued and are being issued by southern writers to this day. Part of what's creepy about the LDS Church's treatment of its own racism is its blindness to it: "Gee, we don't know why it happened.")

[Rocker Ute]

I lived in the south for ten years, and I lived in Wisconsin for one. I heard far more racist comments in that one year in Wisconsin than I did in my southern decade. I guess everyone's experiences differ.

My frame of reference is Utah and Texas and parts of Oklahoma, so an admitted small sample set. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to get this hijacked thread back onto 'the path for homosexuals in LDS theology."

Ah, here is how. I maintain that the church LGBT issues will far outweigh any race ones.

[sancho]

My frame of reference is Utah and Texas and parts of Oklahoma, so an admitted small sample set. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to get this hijacked thread back onto 'the path for homosexuals in LDS theology."

Ah, here is how. I maintain that the church LGBT issues will far outweigh any race ones.

Booooo! We have a good sports thread going; let's not turn it into politics.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to get this hijacked thread back onto 'the path for homosexuals in LDS theology.

That derail was tooblue's fault. Friggin Torontonian.