Interesting that this is the headlining article on CNN.com today:Originally Posted by sancho
http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/16/news...ity/index.html
That might support your comment above.
Interesting that this is the headlining article on CNN.com today:
http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/16/news...ity/index.html
That might support your comment above.
Milwaukee is considered by many to be the most segregated city in the country.
Please explain some things to me.
I think everyone agrees that no one chooses to be born with a specific set of genitalia or specific cutaneous melanin content.
In the case of opposition to interracial marriage, being born black is immutable. Being born black restricts a person's permissible sexual partners to other blacks. Acting on attraction to a person outside the biologically determined pool of permissible mates is not allowed.
In the case of opposition to gay marriage, being born male is immutable. Being born male restricts a person's permissible sexual partner to females. Acting on attraction to a person outside the biologically determined pool of permissible mates is not allowed.
I have a really hard time seeing the difference between these two situations. And this is the norm. I think the only way a difference can be introduced is with the notion of a god's will. Without invoking god's will as the answer (because that was the basis for not mixing races) what is the difference?
You state that there are powerful arguments on both sides, but isn't it clear by now that one side of the argument was actually was way more powerful than the other evidenced by that argument's ability to change opinions held for centuries in the course of a single generation?
If the argument is decided, in your own words, "then morally and ethically those who oppose same-sex marriage or sexual relations ought to be moved into the margins of polite society just as those who oppose interracial marriage now are."
Is that not exactly where we're at?
You've pretty much stated the case. (I don't think you really want me to explain anything to you.). Hypothetically, do you think my private religious views, apart from any behavior on my part, should cost me my job, business opportunities, educational opportunities, and so forth? Keep in mind that the country is still far from unanimous on the issue and that the Supreme Court decision was made by a one-vote margin. Don't get me wrong, the issue is decided and we all need to move on. I'm happy and quite relieved to do that. There seems to be a large faction, however, that does not want to move on, but insists on conformity, ostracism, and in too many cases revenge -- in effect, to treat people with such beliefs as the moral equivalent of Klansmen. That's what I object to.
I've heard it said that gayness is a spectrum -- some are simply born gay, others become gay due to events in their lives, others are uncertain, some make a choice, and so forth. I don't know if that's true. It sure does seem clear to me that a great many people are simply gay and have been gay every minute of their lives. I have family members I love who are in that category. Squaring that reality with what my church teaches is inevitably painful and puzzling and leaves many questions unanswered. I doubt I'll ever know the answers in this life. Lots of Mormons are in the same boat. We're trying to figure this out and to approach the issue, and the human beings involved on both sides -- children of God, in our view -- with compassion, understanding, kindness, charity and open minds. Sometimes we screw up. We're trying to get it right. We're trying to engage in dialogue. I hope you'll give us a break.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
LA, you're genuinely an inspiration to me. Your advocacy and honest, heartfelt, tolerant, fundamentally charitable essence is compelling. The people pushing the pedal to the metal on change can be like a mob. I feel for the good people who've been feeling backlash.
A small thought, from a long fallen away Mormon, on possible pathways in understanding, theologically: The church allows sealings of adopted children into their families. (Actually, in the early days of the church, sealings between people outside of immediate family bounds was not uncommon.)
It seems to me the LDS view of family is naturally amenable to more expansive views.
[Lest anyone think I'm in any way claiming to be a scriptorian, or influenced by the Holy Ghost, etc, remember, I'm the guy who's been in a Shoshone sweat lodge (sans peyote)...twice. Ie, it wasn't a mistake.]
LA, Did you choose your sexual orientation? If so, why did you choose to be heterosexual? What were the specific circumstances when you were confronted with this choice? Have you reconsidered? Please explain.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I will quote myself in my post below, which you might have missed (it is 2 posts away from yours, after all):
I've heard it said that gayness is a spectrum -- some are simply born gay, others become gay due to events in their lives, others are uncertain, some make a choice, and so forth. I don't know if that's true. It sure does seem clear to me that a great many people are simply gay and have been gay every minute of their lives. I have family members I love who are in that category.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I was born heterosexual. Please feel free to cite me as an example as well.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
How can anyone be born heterosexual or homosexual when sexuality doesn't develop until puberty? Were you sexually attracted to women as a toddler?
Sexuality is clearly more biologically, psychologically, and culturally complicated than, say, eye color.
Who cares. LA is right. Sexual orientation is immutable and that's the whole ball game right there.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I think it's immutable for a great many people. The percentages don't really matter.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The science disagrees that it is immutable in the sense that people are born gay. But I know Seattle won't read the science, but this blog article is interesting, written by a woman who does not believe in "sexual fixity":
https://socialinqueery.com/2013/03/1...5-reasons-why/
In the interest of full disclosure, I am currently pursuing a practice based PhD in art. Gender studies, feminist and queer theory are part and parcel of the process. (in New York this past year I had to explore and defend a position employing feminist theory in my argument in a workshop and excelled in my task). I should note that "[non] sexual fixity" is becoming very popular, primarily because the science does not support the idea of immutability and the notion of "choice" is problematic.
Last edited by tooblue; 08-17-2016 at 11:54 AM.
Thanks. I am no scientist. I do know people (men) who tell me they never once found a female sexually attractive, only males. We're still learning about homosexuality, I guess.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Yes, and on the other end there are men who found their wives sufficiently arousing to have children with them before coming out. We are still learning, and since environmental and societal factors constantly change, it's a moving target.
tooblue isn't a scientist either. Quite the contrary. But this issue has been irritating him for a long time, apparently even now when the argument has officially been terminated. (His lament that society no longer has any values is a covert reference in part to same sex marriage.)
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I guess you're saying the science is settled. Be careful with that notion.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I thought he was saying the issue was settled, regardless of the scientific particulars. I think he's right. Science is boring, anyway.
You know that's not what I meant. But I wonder if this is even a proper subject for scientific inquiry.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
In enters, once again, ad hominem ... LOL ... I'll say this for you, you are consistent in that regard. I recommend you start your research here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215279/
It will lead you where you need to go, if you want to go there. But I suspect you don't want to do anything other than be the Donald Trump of Utahby5.com
How long before Seattle says, "it was sarcasm, I was joking."
I'm not fighting you on this. You said "the argument has officially been terminated," and I took that to mean you thought the science was settled. We failed to communicate.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
This right here is the root cause of the problem. Christians have to reconcile an all-encompassing world view centered on a benevolent and just god against a world that is largely indifferent and unjust.
Time and time again, the reconciliation is because some underclass (whether it's blacks, women, gays, or nonbelievers) are either in a position of inferiority due to their own choosing or because it's really in their best interest according to god's plan.
Rather than helping the disadvantaged change their position in society, all too often people have used religion to codify and enforce that subclass status for no other reason than an incredibly selfish desire to avoid having to honestly reconcile their belief system with the real observable world.
The continued conflict exists because people continue to try and force everyone else to acquiesce to a spoken or unspoken validation of your viewpoint as an equally valid perspective with an equally acceptable place in the public sphere. It's not. It is on par with Jom Crow. It is disgusting.
Should people lose their jobs for espousing this viewpoint. Well, homophobia isn't really a new case. Racism and misogyny are pretty clearly opinions that everyone is entitled to have, but if promoted publicly or in the workplace can cost a person his/her job.
People should be fired for having an opinion? Also, homophobia is not the same as what LA Ute is talking about. These sort of views and rhetoric are tiresome.
I agree that this happens and that is should not happen, but I assure that I don't see the world that way. In our own imperfect way lots of believers try to see others as children of God, who's no respecter of persons. Trying to live up to that aspirational point of view is a very tall order and we blow it regularly. But we try.
Ditto my comments above. What you describe is the antithesis of what I consider to be the right way for believers to treat anyone.Rather than helping the disadvantaged change their position in society, all too often people have used religion to codify and enforce that subclass status for no other reason than an incredibly selfish desire to avoid having to honestly reconcile their belief system with the real observable world.
Ditto above.The continued conflict exists because people continue to try and force everyone else to acquiesce to a spoken or unspoken validation of your viewpoint as an equally valid perspective with an equally acceptable place in the public sphere. It's not. It is on par with Jom Crow. It is disgusting.
I believe that marriage ought to be between a man and a woman. But I know that's not the law of the land. Also, there are lots of things I believe that others do not. I don't smoke but I don't think people who do are evil; and I think sex outside of marriage is wrong (an increasingly exotic view), but I don't think people who see that question differently are bad. My hope is that society can develop a live and let live approach to these matters, and that I can hold my beliefs -- without infringing on others' rights -- and not have someone figuratively trying to put a white hood on my head. I Just want to carve out that little space for my beliefs.Should people lose their jobs for espousing this viewpoint. Well, homophobia isn't really a new case. Racism and misogyny are pretty clearly opinions that everyone is entitled to have, but if promoted publicly or in the workplace can cost a person his/her job.
Someday if we are ever in the same city I'd love to have lunch with you to hash through all these these ideas. I'll buy.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
People can and do get fired for EXPRESSING certain opinions pretty regularly. There have been pretty few instances of people being canned over expressing a position on gay marriage. BYU can can someone for openly supporting such a view because it is contrary to the purpose and ideals of that private institution. If a private company spends millions on prividing benefits to gay couples and works hard to foster a gay-friendly environment, they're more than entitled to fire someone for compromising that investment by openly taking positions to the contrary.
Are they? What constitutes publicly sharing, and regularly? Does donating money to a group that supported proposition 8 warrant being fired? What about if the opposite happened? Should someone get fired for complaining their company doesn't provide benefits for gay people? Should a private company be required to do so? Since I'm publicly a Mormon and the LDS church espouses different beliefs on the subject, should that justify me being fired if my company elects to do so?
I used to work with a Muslim. He didn't believe women should work. He thought they should cover their heads. He had some other ideas that were very different from mine and the norms of the company. He spoke about those beliefs openly at work as his personal beliefs and about his wive and daughter. He also managed to work just fine with women, including women who were his superiors in the company (This of course is in my estimation, I heard women scoff at his ideas in that regard, but never complain about his work or respect). Should he have been fired for our society's common standards on sexist beliefs if he did nothing in his job that affected that? Is it possible to have open opposing beliefs and being able to still work together?
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...room/88896468/
Target adding single-stall bathrooms at all stores
I assume before long there will be a federal statute requiring that. It's a good thing for a lot of reasons! Overdue!
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
That would have made life so much easier when changing diapers and taking little kids to the bathroom.
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