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Thread: The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

  1. #811
    If you say you will not build a website of any sort for a particular gay person, then you are discriminating and at risk. But if you don't do porn of any kind for any client, and you would happily make a car repair or scrapbooking or travel website for the same gay client, then you are being consistent and not individually discriminatory.

    The curious thing about this case is the attorneys appear to head toward calling the baker's wedding cakes a figure of 'art', and thus an act of 'speech'. But then where do you draw the line at what is 'art'? Where in the process does it become art? There is a broad range of steps between dumping the flour into the mixing bowl, whipping the eggs, lining up the rounds, laying on a fondant, spooging the roses and ivy decorations from a frosting gun, and placing the two grooms on top.

    That point in time is important because the baker in the case will be required to do everything up to that point for all pairs of clients, whether or not they have an even number of penises (zero being an even number in this case...).

  2. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Here is a serious question: my business that does marketing and websites has always had a policy that we don’t do certain types of sites, among them for illegal activities (of course), gambling, pornography and MLMs among others. Most of those things are based off my principles and religious beliefs. Presuming the Supreme Court sides with previous decisions against the baker would that mean I would be exposing myself to liability if someone wanted to build a gay porn site on my platform and I didn’t allow it?

    Or am I protected because I don’t allow any of that kind of activity?

    And no I’m not being facetious, I’m honestly curious (and no I don’t expect it to happen).

    In the same, if the baker says, “As a gay person you are welcome in my shop and I’ll serve you for everything but that event...” is he not doing essentially the same thing as me?


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    I love that MLMs get lumped in with porn, gambling, and illegal activities. I couldn't agree more!

  3. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I love that MLMs get lumped in with porn, gambling, and illegal activities. I couldn't agree more!
    Well interestingly the way my platform works has some functionality for real estate brokerages that allows individual agents to have their own websites yet the core content and control is retained by the brokerage. That is a functionality that is really nice for MLMs because you could potentially do the same thing for the downline. I've been approached many times by budding MLMs who wanted to do that and I've politely declined stating that I didn't believe our business models were a good match for each other. I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror knowing I had supported that garbage.

  4. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Here is a serious question: my business that does marketing and websites has always had a policy that we don’t do certain types of sites, among them for illegal activities (of course), gambling, pornography and MLMs among others. Most of those things are based off my principles and religious beliefs. Presuming the Supreme Court sides with previous decisions against the baker would that mean I would be exposing myself to liability if someone wanted to build a gay porn site on my platform and I didn’t allow it?

    Or am I protected because I don’t allow any of that kind of activity?

    And no I’m not being facetious, I’m honestly curious (and no I don’t expect it to happen).

    In the same, if the baker says, “As a gay person you are welcome in my shop and I’ll serve you for everything but that event...” is he not doing essentially the same thing as me?


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    i would think you are okay because none of the activities you described are practiced solely by people of a protected class, i.e., race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation. In the Baker case, the Baker would provide products to a gay person, other than a wedding cake based on his belief on marriage. This makes this case very difficult to decide and will allow the court to reach a very narrow ruling. I like the artistic expression argument because in this case the Baker does provide products for gay people, other than wedding cakes. The court could rule in favor of the Baker without creating a basis for someone to deny services to all gay people.

  5. #815
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Nelson as president selects Oaks as first counselor.

    Can I collect my swish now that there is no place in the LDS church of LDS theology for LGBTQ individuals?
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  6. #816
    When asked how the First Presidency plans to approach LGBTQ issues, President Nelson replied that God loves His children and wants them to have joy.

    “We know that there are challenges with the commandments of God; challenges to be worthy [and] to enter His holy presence when we’re through with this mortal experience.

    “We’re trying to help people find happiness and joy in this life and prepare for great possibilities in the world ahead.”

    Because of God’s love, He has given His children commandments, added President Oaks. There is the love of the Lord — and the law of the Lord.

    “He has given us a plan to achieve the highest blessings He has for His children. As leaders of the Church, we have the responsibility to teach love and also teach the commandments of God and the highest destination that He has prescribed for His children, all of which is embodied in the plan of salvation.”


    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...erenceNew.html


    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  7. #817
    Here's a pothole for many Mormons, from the new prophet: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018...n-millennials/

    And below is a response in the forums, from somebody named "JustChris1976". (I think this is why some Mormons felt like Uchdorf got the shaft in the recent transition).

    What a joke! I'm sick an tired of being respectful, when old men, who haven't even tried to understand, condemn others.MISTER Nelson, I did not choose to be exclusively attracted to males. It was always just this way. Before I had even reached your "age of accountability" I was aware of the way I felt about other boys my age.As I got older, I tried, and tried, and cried as I begged, in prayer, for God to "fix me." I served an honorable two-year mission, hoping that God would turn my head for my sacrifice.After I got home, I still felt exactly the same as ever about my sexuality. It was then that I realized that I'd had my answer all along:There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not in need of redemption. I'm a moral, kind person who works hard to love others, especially my partner of TEN YEARS.Let's make a deal - You stay out of my bedroom, and I'll stay out of your silly, man-made church.

  8. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Here's a pothole for many Mormons, from the new prophet: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018...n-millennials/

    And below is a response in the forums, from somebody named "JustChris1976". (I think this is why some Mormons felt like Uchdorf got the shaft in the recent transition).

    What a joke! I'm sick an tired of being respectful, when old men, who haven't even tried to understand, condemn others.MISTER Nelson, I did not choose to be exclusively attracted to males. It was always just this way. Before I had even reached your "age of accountability" I was aware of the way I felt about other boys my age.As I got older, I tried, and tried, and cried as I begged, in prayer, for God to "fix me." I served an honorable two-year mission, hoping that God would turn my head for my sacrifice.After I got home, I still felt exactly the same as ever about my sexuality. It was then that I realized that I'd had my answer all along:There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not in need of redemption. I'm a moral, kind person who works hard to love others, especially my partner of TEN YEARS.Let's make a deal - You stay out of my bedroom, and I'll stay out of your silly, man-made church.
    My son gives some advice to his LGBTQ friends who get upset over what Mormon leaders say. Stop reading and listening to it. The poster ends his statement with "you stay out of my bedroom and I'll stay our of your silly, man-made church." It is obvious the poster refuses to do so.

    As for the statement that made him upset. The LDS Church is not going to change its doctrine when it comes to marriage or same gender, sexual relationships anymore than it is going to change its doctrine on adultery or pre-marital sex. I don't expect the LDS Church to tell me that it is okay if I want to go out and commit adultery because I happen to love someone who is not my spouse. Why do people continue to expect the LDS Church to say that it is okay to engage in same gender, sexual relationships?

  9. #819
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This woman is one of many who leave me wondering if I could ever face the challenges they face the way they do.

    https://youtu.be/vd8LkJt9iPI

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #820
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Stats, and more stats.

    Op-ed: Responding to Ellen on Mormons and teen suicide

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...n-suicide.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Stats, and more stats.

    Op-ed: Responding to Ellen on Mormons and teen suicide

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...n-suicide.html
    This is the part of the story that is disconcerting and that should be addressed by the LDS Church.

    "Another more recent Utah study of 600 families with a teen (the Family Foundations of Youth Development study, 2016-2017) found the same: more religious teens and Mormon teens were significantly less likely to experience suicidal thoughts. Teens who had previously been Mormon (had left the Mormon Church) had similar rates of suicidal thoughts as their non-Mormon peers. As we consider these findings in a highly homogenous religious state like Utah, we acknowledge that a higher rate of suicidal ideation for non-LDS youths in Utah may speak to a need for better integration of non-LDS youths within schools and local communities."

  12. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    This is the part of the story that is disconcerting and that should be addressed by the LDS Church.

    "Another more recent Utah study of 600 families with a teen (the Family Foundations of Youth Development study, 2016-2017) found the same: more religious teens and Mormon teens were significantly less likely to experience suicidal thoughts. Teens who had previously been Mormon (had left the Mormon Church) had similar rates of suicidal thoughts as their non-Mormon peers. As we consider these findings in a highly homogenous religious state like Utah, we acknowledge that a higher rate of suicidal ideation for non-LDS youths in Utah may speak to a need for better integration of non-LDS youths within schools and local communities."
    I question the value of a study of only 600 families in a place as large and diverse as Utah looking for something as nuanced as a likelihood to experience suicidal thoughts. That said, I'm all for better integration of LDS and non-LDS populations in the state.

    The stat from the article that really jumps out as being significant is the hugely elevated rate of suicidal thoughts among LGBT youth (43% vs 18%). Regardless of how the survey is conducted or what constitutes a positive response, that's a big difference.

  13. #823
    The comment section in the News article regarding the about face the Provo Freedom Festival Parade committee did after initially rejecting the applications of 5 LGBTQ groups applications to participate says about all that needs to be said about the hurdles faced by the LGBTQ community in Utah. The groups were initially not allowed because organizers claimed that their applications did not meet standards and the parade is not a place for advocating special interests but to show patriotism. The groups have now been allowed to participate in the parade after agreeing to have more red, white and blue on the submission and more patriotic themes. The SLTrib showed a photo of the LDS Provo Utah Mission entry in last year's parade. It consisted of the mission president and wife walking in front of a banner with the words Utah Provo Mission and then followed by missionaries in white shirts and ties. While the frame of the photo was narrow, none of those shown were waving or carrying flags.

  14. #824

    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    The comment section in the News article regarding the about face the Provo Freedom Festival Parade committee did after initially rejecting the applications of 5 LGBTQ groups applications to participate says about all that needs to be said about the hurdles faced by the LGBTQ community in Utah. The groups were initially not allowed because organizers claimed that their applications did not meet standards and the parade is not a place for advocating special interests but to show patriotism. The groups have now been allowed to participate in the parade after agreeing to have more red, white and blue on the submission and more patriotic themes. The SLTrib showed a photo of the LDS Provo Utah Mission entry in last year's parade. It consisted of the mission president and wife walking in front of a banner with the words Utah Provo Mission and then followed by missionaries in white shirts and ties. While the frame of the photo was narrow, none of those shown were waving or carrying flags.
    I believe the Freedom Festival folks tweaked their theme requirements to be even more strict, because they’d been forced to sign the non-discrimination agreements. Their thinking was they could just say an entry wasn’t patriotic enough and avoid any controversy. The original plan for at least one of the rejected groups was a float of LGBTQ veterans. How that wasn’t patriotic I have no idea.

    They also made a big deal about funding....making sure to say the large sums of taxpayer money they receive goes to everything but the parade.


    Frankly it’s amazing local governments have such large sums of taxpayer money to hand out for parades and festivals. I’d be curious if they charge these events for resources they use, such as police and fire...if not the reported ‘donations’ are probably lower than what it’s actually costing taxpayers.


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  15. #825
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The path for homosexuals in LDS theology

    From the Trib:

    Mormon church makes historic donation to LGBTQ support group Affirmation for suicide prevention training

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/...-church-makes/

    It’s only $25K but a positive step.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #826
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Good stuff.

    Previous Latter-day Saint Bishop Shares 4 Ways We Can Show Respect for LGBTQ Members

    http://www.ldsliving.com/Previous-La...embers/s/90167

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Good stuff.

    Previous Latter-day Saint Bishop Shares 4 Ways We Can Show Respect for LGBTQ Members

    http://www.ldsliving.com/Previous-La...embers/s/90167
    That *is* good stuff. Though I don't think there was ever an overtly hostile, "extermination" kind of mindset among LDS, it's remarkable how far the common understanding has come. I don't hear anyone pushing the "it's a choice" angle anymore.

  18. #828
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This one left me a little choked up.

    "You Are My People": Inactive Gay Mormon Shares Powerful Insights After Attending Church for the First Time in Years

    http://www.ldsliving.com/Inactive-Ga...-Years/s/87741
    http://www.ldsliving.com/Inactive-Ga...hU3mZqxoFKzbac

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #829
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/us/by...rnd/index.html

    I bet that made more than a few people squirm in their seats

  20. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/29/us/by...rnd/index.html

    I bet that made more than a few people squirm in their seats
    Good for him to get this off his chest. I have known of more than 1 person who has waited to graduate at BYU before coming out.

  21. #831
    The son of good friends of ours is a freshman, and posted online around Thanksgiving that he is gay. He intends to serve a mission; I don't know if he has submitted papers yet. He is very brave. i can't imagine what it is like to be him down there.

  22. #832
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    Good for him to get this off his chest. I have known of more than 1 person who has waited to graduate at BYU before coming out.
    I don't understand how this works? Its my understanding that even though you've graduated, BYU has power to withdraw/suspend your degree (I recall the guy from Las Vegas that did the shirtless missionary calendar that was denied his degree even though he had met all the requirement and had graduated). I assume that these degrees will be honored as long as they don't openly practice, but I'm not sure?

  23. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I don't understand how this works? Its my understanding that even though you've graduated, BYU has power to withdraw/suspend your degree (I recall the guy from Las Vegas that did the shirtless missionary calendar that was denied his degree even though he had met all the requirement and had graduated). I assume that these degrees will be honored as long as they don't openly practice, but I'm not sure?
    We have another close friend -- bYu undergrad, law school bask east; has lived in NYC for 25 years. He got married in his husband's rural home town in Nebraska. It was written up in the local paper; somebody saw it and forwarded to his bishop in NYC. He was excommunicated, but he is still a graduate.

  24. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I don't understand how this works? Its my understanding that even though you've graduated, BYU has power to withdraw/suspend your degree (I recall the guy from Las Vegas that did the shirtless missionary calendar that was denied his degree even though he had met all the requirement and had graduated). I assume that these degrees will be honored as long as they don't openly practice, but I'm not sure?
    I don't think he has admitted to any behavior that is against the honor code, right?

  25. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    We have another close friend -- bYu undergrad, law school bask east; has lived in NYC for 25 years. He got married in his husband's rural home town in Nebraska. It was written up in the local paper; somebody saw it and forwarded to his bishop in NYC. He was excommunicated, but he is still a graduate.
    Can you imagine them going around rescinding degrees from 20 years ago due to honor code violations that occurred years after graduating? It's a crazy place, Provo, but that would be too far even for them.

  26. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Can you imagine them going around rescinding degrees from 20 years ago due to honor code violations that occurred years after graduating? It's a crazy place, Provo, but that would be too far even for them.
    Unfortunately, I can.

  27. #837
    I predict the Honor Code office as we now know it will not exist one year from now. Instead honor code worthiness type issues will be sent to the respective bishops and academic disciplinary actions will be handled by the school.

  28. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I predict the Honor Code office as we now know it will not exist one year from now. Instead honor code worthiness type issues will be sent to the respective bishops and academic disciplinary actions will be handled by the school.
    But what of the many parts of the honor code that are not commandments or even general church standards? What about beards?

  29. #839
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't think he has admitted to any behavior that is against the honor code, right?

    I just looked it up and it sounds like he was in the process of graduating, not officially graduated (although pretty petty by BYU)?

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...U-diploma.html

    PROVO — Selling a calendar of shirtless returned missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints first cost Chad Hardy his membership in the church.

    Now it's cost him his Brigham Young University degree.

    Hardy walked in BYU commencement ceremonies in August, but a BYU administrator informed him in a letter dated Sept. 30 that he had been deleted from the August graduation list and would not be awarded his degree in broadcasting.

    BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins confirmed BYU has not granted Hardy a diploma. "When a student applies for graduation, he or she must be in good standing with the university," Jenkins said.

    The BYU letter said Hardy's degree is on hold because he was not in good honor code standing because of his excommunication. The LDS Church owns and operates BYU. The letter invited Hardy to contact the executive director of student academic and advisement services about his degree if he returns to good standing in the church.

    Hardy completed the final requirements for his degree over the summer by completing two religion courses. Hardy was excommunicated by the church on July 13. Hardy had not been active in the church for six years.



  30. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I just looked it up and it sounds like he was in the process of graduating, not officially graduated?

    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...U-diploma.html

    PROVO — Selling a calendar of shirtless returned missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints first cost Chad Hardy his membership in the church.

    Now it's cost him his Brigham Young University degree.

    Hardy walked in BYU commencement ceremonies in August, but a BYU administrator informed him in a letter dated Sept. 30 that he had been deleted from the August graduation list and would not be awarded his degree in broadcasting.

    BYU spokeswoman Carri Jenkins confirmed BYU has not granted Hardy a diploma. "When a student applies for graduation, he or she must be in good standing with the university," Jenkins said.

    The BYU letter said Hardy's degree is on hold because he was not in good honor code standing because of his excommunication. The LDS Church owns and operates BYU. The letter invited Hardy to contact the executive director of student academic and advisement services about his degree if he returns to good standing in the church.

    Hardy completed the final requirements for his degree over the summer by completing two religion courses. Hardy was excommunicated by the church on July 13. Hardy had not been active in the church for six years.


    Most schools let you “walk” prior to degrees being official. It usually takes them months now to actually send you your diploma.




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