I never understood resignation. Why give credence to your record status in the Church?Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan
I never understood resignation. Why give credence to your record status in the Church?
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
Interesting question......and not sure any good answer exists. Perhaps people just don't want to be bugged anymore?
My parents haven't attended church in over 40 years, but still maintain their membership.
My mom, until recently, when her VT companion passed, was a visiting teacher during that time. But, that's all she did.
My dad, over the course of 40 years accepted a couple of callings that wouldn't require regular church attendance. For example, he directed the ward choir for a number of years. When the choir sang, he was at church. When they didn't. He wasn't at church.
They've also maintained HT'ers over the past 40 years, with their current HT'ers having visited for about 30 years now. Actually, the husband died this year, but his wife continues to visit them on her own.
Again, I'm not sure why my dad hasn't given up his membership. He's agnostic now. Every time there's a new HPGL, they always charge over to the house in an attempt to reactivate him. I've probably asked one of my best buddies who's in their ward to run interference with the HPGL a half-dozen times over the years. They just get too pushy.
Even if my dad wanted to attend church anymore, he couldn't. Simply to infirm to spend an hour or three at church. His time is short.
I think once my dad passes, my mom may return to church. I think she sometimes misses it.
Not sure why I even posted this as it doesn't answer your question.....just that church, or lack of it, works in different ways for different people.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Im not convinced that these mass resignation events draw much more than folks who are already long gone. I am not convinced that this will be the catastrophic event that the Dehlinites and Kellyites are hoping for/predicting. Was this handled well? obviously not ideally. Time will tell how it plays out.
This one feels different to me because it goes after children. Children are off limits......
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Hopefully the Church will go after those wierdos next.
Last edited by Sullyute; 11-12-2015 at 02:17 PM.
More than 10% of the population is LGBT?
http://www.gallup.com/poll/183383/am...y-lesbian.aspx
http://www.everydayhealth.com/health...fthanders.aspx
I should mention that you all know me, your resident flamboyant left-hander. Societal pressures that tried to force me into using backward scissors, caused me to perpetually have ink on the side of my hand, forced me to shake with my less dominant hand by tradition and left me unable to borrow a friend's golf clubs to learn how to golf. These and many other things have left me isolated and alone, damaged by your perpetual insensitivity.
This is such a common type of refrain I read from you and others here in this forum. Why? I interact with millennials on a daily basis. They are not the “great hope” you suppose them to be. While they are "politically" more tolerant, they are far more irrationally strident than any previous generation I have encountered. With greater—or what one might call absolute—societal tolerance comes much less empathy. I witness this phenomenon daily. It's jarring, because I can see where one could imagine the opposite to be true. But that's just not the case. Remembering of course, gay marriage has been legal here for more than ten years.
And I agree with Ma'ake: the wheels are turning.
Last edited by tooblue; 11-12-2015 at 08:55 AM.
Bottom line is this new policy was totally unnecessary, came across as mean spirited, and has caused a lot of confusion, anger, sadness, doubt etc..... I'm hoping church leaders are wishing they had a do-over on this one. It's gotta go -- it's the right thing to do.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
+1.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
You're right. My comments were condescending. I apologize. I consider it a great blessing to have lived in Wards and Stakes where you can look out from the pulpit on congregations with members from more than thirty different nations. My primary intent was agree with Ma'ake that it changes the way you worship and how you live the gospel. I also have immediate family who are black. That changes the very nature of dinner conversations at each frequent family gathering. It's a great blessing in mine and my family's life and I should be more careful not to diminish it with my tone.
In regards to millennials, my only intent was to dispel the myth that they are any kind of a "great hope." I just don't see it. On the contrary, I am often left disillusioned by my daily experiences. An anecdote from today in particular can highlight my concerns. In my role, teaching art and design at a community college, I have the responsibility to teach principles of narrative as it relates to interactive, multimedia and Web design. I am specifically charged with creating outlines for large, comprehensive integrated media projects. This past summer I connected with researchers at a local natural history museum to augment the quality of the content in our students project work. It's exciting and interesting. The struggle I face though is the general ignorance and limited awareness of my students.
To be succinct, I have researched and created an outline for the design and development of a gesture controlled app, which can be used on a tv connected to an xbox kinect type of device. Beyond teaching principles of interactive narratives, conceptualizing and writing the project outline, my secondary role is to teach the students how to make the app beautiful and improve the user experience through good design. With this particular project I have chosen to use a classic moral tale to introduce and tell a modern moral tale about climate change. We are adapting a version of one of Aesop's fables.
The first thing I did today was ask students to explain what a 'moral tale' is. Not a single student could. In fact they could not even define or tell me what the word 'moral' means. I asked them to look it up (google it). They did, but still struggled to understand the explanation and definition. My class is three hours long. I spent most of it simply defining, explaining, trying desperately to convey the potential impact of the moral tale. Exacerbating the issue, not a single one has ever heard of Aesop, nor have they heard or read a single fable. It was a long day.
My students are not stupid. Many are talented, and willing to work hard, though they require a lot of hand-holding—they are millennials. This class is offered in their final year of study. A few have attended a couple of years of University but left to attend college for more practical hands-on technical skills. For more than a few, this will not be the last or only program they enroll in. They will get a couple of diploma's, and some will return to University. They are coddled and do not want to grow up, or leave school. It reminds me of the scripture:
2 Timothy 3:7 ... Ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth
Last edited by tooblue; 11-13-2015 at 11:00 PM.
This is a long but interesting piece by Rod Dreher, a non-Mormon observer, well worth the time it takes to read it.
Mormons & Gay Marriage
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Emphasis on long. I'm still unsure of his point after reading it.
Try this one, which Dreher relied on. It gets to the nub of the issue, I think, without branching off into metaphysics.
Are Mormons villains, or just people with a different story about their identity?
The author takes a pretty calm, even-handed approach.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Then again, perhaps they are doing these children a favor:
You have to wonder what role, if any, all this played in the ruling from the juvenile judge who ordered a foster child be removed from a gay couple this week.
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I have wondered.
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Ma'ake, I think you hit the bullseye on this situation but perhaps not the way you intended. I don't see this ad people abandoning their values as much as I see it as the LDS church taking a stance that does not seem to support people's own innate sense of morality.
And as for all you left-handed people, your kids will not be allowed into the club until they turn 18, move out of your homes, get interviewed by the club president, and disavow your lefthanded lifestyle choices. We can't have your left-handedness rub off on anybody else.
NUF - Great post, I agree.
The general issue, then SSM provoking a stance, which itself becomes controversial, reveals a significant landscape shift. (Any guesses on how widespread the sentiment is on seeing this as "harsh"? Can't be more than 20%, it seems to me, because most people just focus on their daily lives.)
Theology often lags social change, but in the time compression and amplified thought expression we have in 2015, how fast can theology adapt?
The reaction itself will prompt a focused revisiting of scripture, thinking evolves.
I don't know how quickly the issue of slavery went from being sanctioned by the Bible to being anathema to Biblical teachings, but suffice it to say we're in a similar period of change, and the speed of change (enabled by technology) brings very interesting pressure.
I agree this undercurrent of discontent is not in any way widespread in the broader Mormon culture. But it is extremely broad in certain populations. In this case the population with broad discontent is the 15-35 age range. Much older populations are likely to be more broadly supportive. In many ways this is a Cronkite moment for the church (LBJ famously quipped about a negative comnentary about the Vietnam war, "If I've lost Walter Cronkite, I have lost America" ). Just how far into the future can an organization exist if its policies are anathema to young people?
Your comment on theology supporting, then abhorring slavery is salient. Religions long supported slavery, going back many thousands of years, with occasional exceptions. Relevant to American slavery, there was a small abolition movement in churches in England in the early 1700s which led to England banning slave trade. Later in the century and in the early 1800s, this caught on in American churches in the New England states, notably among Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and Unitarians. This movement among abolitionist preachers and secular leaders grew and America changed. Today there are scattered pockets of Christian churches that still preach racist teachings, but they are very few and far between. The entire field has flipped, but it started with scattered pockets of resistance.
Maybe we are just making this too hard. How difficult could it be to just follow the Prophet and ignore the nagging doubts in our moral minds?
Last edited by NorthwestUteFan; 11-13-2015 at 09:27 AM.
Some clarification, FWIW: http://bycommonconsent.com/2015/11/13/clarification/
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Baby steps. That at least a alleviates the issue coming up in my ward.
Last edited by chrisrenrut; 11-13-2015 at 11:11 AM.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
A common-sense clarification.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Ok, so they used "same-gender marriage or similar relationship." What constitutes a "similar relationship"? Gay people living together? Dating but not living together?
I guess they'll figure that out case by case.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Not surprising. This only undermines the logic of their purported rationale, but who ever expected logic or consistency from this bunch.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
NUF - I found a letter on the 'net penned by 4 Quakers in the year 1688 in Pennsylvania stating their objection to slavery.
Remarkable position to take, 99 years before slavery was put into the Constitution with the 3/5ths compromise, but also remarkable that it was also roughly 200 years later when the change on Biblical interpretation was settled, more or less.
There's a big difference in degree between slavery and racism, and I realize my thesis that homosexuals may ultimately achieve full parity within LDS theology is a Grand Canyon sized gulf from tolerating gay marriage in a secular way, but I think it would be more like 20-40 years, instead of 200.
Kate Kelly got booted, which was probably inevitable given how hard she was pushing, but I would include the notable progress in giving women leadership positions as both a result of increased scrutiny on the topic, perhaps a bit of backpedaling from the indigestion on early polygamy history, but this also nudges forward toward gender (perhaps) becoming a non-factor.
In 1978, the wording was "all worthy males..."
Will we see "all worthy members..." by 2028? Who knows, but that would be the final barrier, it seems to me.
Like many Mormons, I’ve had questions/doubts about some of the toxic LDS issues like the practice of polygamy, the delay of the Priesthood to Blacks, the Mountain Meadow incident, etc. but I could always distance myself from those topics and come to an understanding that was a different time, and not relevant to me today. I could simply hold on to the core concepts of the LDS Gospel and not concern myself with the more controversial fringe topics (I think most LDS Members are like me and can compartmentalize these things we don’t fully understand). I know for some people that isn’t possible, and I can respect that.
However, this issue is completely different. It is relevant to me today. It’s puzzling and concerning. It’s shaken my faith.
We all have relatives, friends, co-workers who are homosexual. 99% of those are great family members, good friends and great citizens. In fact I believe many of them go out of their way to be more charitable simply because they feel the need to be more accepted than those of us that are straight. When I worked for AT&T, they put an emphasis on advertising to the gay community. Studies had shown that they were generally more affluent, had more disposable income and were less likely to default on bills. I do see these LDS policy changes as hated-filled and un-Christ like and I still have a bad taste in my mouth from when they were announced. There are all sorts of non-traditional people who make great parents.
I won’t leave the church because of this policy. I still believe that the core gospel has great principles that makes life fuller and happier and maybe given some time, my heart will soften and maybe by some miracle I gain some further understanding as to why. But for the first time, I am embarrassed and feel ashamed to be part of something I thought strived to eclipse all of that.
It’s just sad.
Last edited by Scorcho; 11-13-2015 at 11:42 AM.
To bottom line it (which is a horrible pun), the LDS Church is extremely afraid of homosexuality and everything that comes with it. I do believe they are concerned with LDS Millennials being more open and accepting to gay lifestyles.
What was a half-court press with Prop-8 appears to have expanded to a ¾ court press with these new guidelines
I can't remember where I mentioned this, but the clarification letter is in line with what my Stake President told me when I asked him about it, and what he said they were counseled to do. This is obviously a good step, and makes me wonder if the many stories that popped up of people being sent home from their missions, refused mission service, baptism, etc were instances of a Stake President being off the rails and not asking for further clarification, or if they were largely made up or where people would just assume that was what was going to happen. Probably a little from column a and a little from column b.
Last edited by Rocker Ute; 11-13-2015 at 01:51 PM.
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