Can you elaborate?Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar
Can you elaborate?
“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
I am an agnostic that believes that God probably exists. Someone made a comment in SU's thread about the big bang and nothingness, that this was the biggest hurdle for Atheists to tackle. Why is there something(the big bang) versus nothing. Why matter versus nothingness. To me it points to forces beyond human understanding(and there may be some understanding with future scientific discovery).
So for that reason, I feel that there is a creator's hand in the initiation of the universe. I don't believe that this creator intervenes in the lives of living beings. Whereas MV said that this was because that which we view as a tragedy, God views as an opportunity to return some of his children. I believe that tragedy is the natural consequences of the physics and chemistry that make our world possible. In my view, God doesn't intervene to prevent sorrow, he may comfort those in sorrow, much the way we as parents comfort our children when they are in pain, or upset. But we don't intervene at every opportunity so our kids avoid dissappointment, etc(I understand that some parents are helicopter parents, but I think we can all agree to the damage that this behavior causes.)
Philosiphers and common people search for reason. Why do we exist? Why are we here? I think that we(as humans) try to make it complicated. We are here to exist, to experience, to discover. "Man is that he might have joy". That doesn't mean that joy is a given.
Thanks for the response. The part in bold is an effort to tackle theodicy. I don't think it is in the spirit of this thread to necessarily get into it here, so I might start another. It is a fascinating topic.
“The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
― Carl Sagan
Every summer we do a boy's trip just north of Island Park. My family still owns my grandmother's house on main street in St Anthony. The back yard slopes right down to the river; like you said, magical. I just don't get there enough. My dad is from closer to your neck of the woods, Aberdeen to be exact. Being 6'6" able to shoot a basketball was his ticket to the U.
"Don't apologize; it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."
That is awesome hostile, I have probably floated past your grandma's house a few times. There is a some crazy rapids and hazards right in the town of St. Anthony a lot of the river is a nice easy float.
Where "north of IP" do you go? I spend a couple weeks each summer up in the IP.
Ahhhh, "Scaberdeen" the Tigers........
-What would you do if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
Would you fear them?
Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.
What was that for?
Try to be bad.
A buddy of mine has a family cabin just off the Yale-Kilgore road, just south of Mack's Inn and near the continental divide. It's an old ranch cabin without electricity or heat. Water is from a spring. Basically we eat, shoot, fish, stay up late and BS.
Last edited by hostile; 02-26-2013 at 09:56 PM.
"Don't apologize; it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."
That sounds like a good time...a damn good time. I know where that area is.
-What would you do if you saw spaceships over Glasgow?
Would you fear them?
Every aircraft, every camera, is a wish that wasn't granted.
What was that for?
Try to be bad.
Nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I'm new, so it's new to me!
I am atheist. Some people may classify me as agnostic atheist because I don't claim to know that no diety exists. But, I personally feel that the burden of proof so to speak is on anyone claiming that something is true. Since I don't have any reason to beleive in it, I keep the agnostic off.
A little bit about my religious journey. I was born into an LDS family-in a sense. I say that because both of my parents were raised mormon, but were never active during my life. With that said though, I always felt a pressure from my extended family. I was baptized when I was 9 because I felt it is what I was supposed to do. As I got older, I realized that I didn't believe in what I was being taught. Seminary is actually one of the main reasons that I no longer believe. I tried a few times to go to various Christian churches, but ultimately decided that I simply didn't believe. My junior and senior year of high school I studied various religions, mostly Buddhism, looking for something different. Needless to say, I never found it.
With all of that said, I still firmly believe that every religion has something to offer. I do my best to learn about all religions and how they view the world. I am also very interested in peoples different views of faith, even within the same religion. Currently, I am wishing to study the Koran, but want to have someone that practices so that I can ask them questions. If any of you know of anyone of the Islamic faith that would be open to this, please let me know.
Anywho, if you are curious about anything from my journey, current family/religion situation, or beliefs, feel free to ask.
OK, my turn. This will be long and uncomfortably personal.
I was raised the oldest kid in a multigenerational Mormon family with parents that were somewhat adjusting to living in a non-Mormon part of the country. I would say that as transplants, our social circle mostly consisted of other church members. It was an area that was having pretty substantial population decline, and many of the Mormons in the area, who were transplants like us, were moving back West, meaning a lot of ward consolidations, redivisions, and branch closings. One branch that merged with my ward was closed because of police having to respond to fistfights at the chapel a few times. With the shortage of members, there where a lot of very undeserving people receiving callings, and they seemed to be primary teachers. Among the loads of bad doctrine I was taught, the worst offender (one of the people from the family feud that produced the fistfights) told me that my mom had shared with the relief society her patriartical blessing that said that she would be called back to heaven before the second coming and that, because I was from a "chosen generation" and it was the last days, that meant my mom was going to die pretty soon. That messed with my head quite a lot, enough that from about the age of 8-12 I would get physically sick after church, especially after "end days" heavy fast and testimony meetings, and sometimes had panic attacks when my mom was late getting home from places. I was sort of a weird kid for that period.
When I was 12, my dad was called to be the branch president in a small community about an hour from our house as there were no longer any worther priesthood holders there. (As an aside this was sort of interesting. With declining membership, I think the donations had dried up an our chapel was in pretty bad shape. The threadbare orange carpet was mostly held together with duct tape. Finally the bishropric members, including my dad, just paid for new carpet and replaced it themselves. They were all summarily released with new ward boundaries placing the bishop in one ward, the first counselor in another, and my dad out in the branch). So my dad was the branch president, and I was the Aaronic priesthood. He blessed the sacrament, and I passed it every week, sometimes helping an adult member who would transiently be worthy enough to become a deacon or teacher, but these never lasted. We had a lot of discussions on these long drives to and from church, and basically all my issues sort of resolved on their own and I quit being such a neurotic puking kid. Also, being away from my friends at church made me be a little bit more open to closer friendships at school which was a very positive thing for me. Then the branch closed and it was back to the old ward.
I don't know if you can believe in evil as an agnostic atheist, but our teacher's quorum adviser/scout master was at the minimum a very, very bad person, but I've already alluded to that previously. I was doing my ealy mornng seminary and was just really struggling for the first time to believe any of it, but was trying very hard with lots of prayer. One weekend, my family was assigned to clean out the church library. Out of curiosity I popped in an old VHS tape. It was an old black and white copy of a film reel circa 1950-1960 with some church authority talking to a bunch of primary children. When he started calling them "the chosen generation" I just started laughing and sort of happy crying. At that time, I felt like it was the answer to my prayers, a recognition that I'd been fed a load of crap and didn't need to be burdened by it any more. I quit church that day, and it is still about as happy as I've ever felt.
I spent the next 10 years exploring other religions and schools of thought, but in the end, they were all too complicated and ended up with too big of internal contradictions to make it past my BS filter. Without religion, I still felt the same reward from doing good things and the same guilt for doing bad things and realized that my internal definition of the concepts of good and bad were as good as any that I'd come across. So I just quit thinking about god, and went about my business. Then in my late 20's, with a lot of reservations considering my previous experiences with church, I moved to Utah for post graduate training. After exploring being a Methodist, a Lutheran, a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, a Buddhist, an animist, and what have you, I realized that I was an agnostic atheist ex-Mormon with a somewhat tenuous relationship with the culture and faith I was raised in. It turns out that's a thing, and it's really nice to find out that other people are in the same boat.
Cald22well and jrj,
I appreciate the journeys that you have both shared. I have a few thoughts for both of you that I will post later tonight. The hospital calleth and she is a mistress that cannot be ignored.
Ditto. I enjoyed your posts. I am a Kool-Aid drinking Mormon believer (but still am a guy who could never live happily in Utah County or many parts of Utah, if that tells you anything), but I like to be around thinking, decent people of any belief system. It's one reason I am so attached to the U. of U.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
This was a very big thing for me as well. In some ways, I almost felt like I was a better mormon after I accepted that I didn't believe any of it. I had found peace and could just live my life. Thank you so much for sharing. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one that has gone through a similar journey.
I spent 30+ years as a "Kool-Aid drinking Mormon" (to quote LA Ute). I did the mission thing, married in the temple like I was supposed to, helped countless families move as a member of an elders' quorum, served in young men's presidencies (on the ward and stake level) and was even a counselor in a bisphopric when I lost my faith.
I often remembered hearing people say (even myself) something akin to "I don't know what I would do without the Church. It makes me a better person than I would be without it." It's almost like some Mormons worry that they would be axe-murdering psycopaths if they ever quit going to a 3-hour block of extremely boring meetings every Sunday.
Let me just add to jrj and cald's "testimonies" that with or without the LDS Church (or any religion), you will still be the same person. I have extreme doubts about deity now -- I guess I would be considered agnostic -- but I still am a generally nice, charitable person and a good father and a contributor to society.
Plus, now I have Sundays off to watch the NFL and can give more generously to the Crimson Club since I'm not donating 10 percent of my income to a different Salt Lake City-based institution!
This brings up one of my biggest struggles as an atheist. I think there this a fundamental human need to have transcendent experiences now and again- to experience awe, wonder, humility, and thankfulness. Without that devoted block of time on Sunday, it can be easy to forget to set time aside to meet this need.
Hold your sleeping child or watch a sunrise/sunset. I'd think an agnostic could regularly experience all those things you mentioned without formal church. No?
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Absolutely, and I think stepping away from a religious discipline that isn't working for you instantly opens your eyes to all the possibilities you've been missing.
At the same time, I think you have to really consciously make an effort to go into that sort of mindset of quiet and reverence. Church does a really nice job of easing you into that with opening songs and prayer and such, so you have to find a system that works for you. These moments require a little bit of time protected from your other duties and obligations. I sometimes feel selfish in this respect, but I'm a better person if I take care of those needs.
I would probably best characterize myself as agnostic who feels that there is more likely a god than not. I guess I haven't been able to get past the nothingness becoming something/matter. I always get stuck on "the beginning" what brought it on, what triggered it. That is also one of the problems that I had with the whole "God was like us, was once mortal and was given a planet". It all had to start with someone.
For myself, the journey from inactive/indifferent to active to inactive to out the door has been a roller coaster. I was not immersed in churchdom as a child/teen. I held an indifferent view of the doctrine and tenets. I did not really question the "truthfulness" of the church as I had more important things to do. But once I met the future Mrs. JIC, it was readily apparent how this was going to go down. But, given that I hadn't really questioned anything about church history/doctrine, etc, I easily just accepted and moved along. But once immersed in the culture of the church, I could tell that I was a fish out of water. The rest of this journey is predictable. It almost cost me my marriage, but we have weathered that storm.
I'm glad to hear that your marriage has made it through JIC. Similar religious views is one of the single most important factors in a relationship for me. My non-wife comes from a Catholic family, and I know that if she were a strict practicing Catholic, we probably wouldn't be together. I know many couples that one person is religious and the other is not, or they practice different religions. I look at them and just wonder how? Especially the ones with kids. This especially boggles me with familes in which one parent is active LDS with how important families are.
I am curious as to how other people feel about having similar religious views as a partner for those that are willing to share. Anyone else on here have a spouse that is religious while they are not, or vice versa?
I think a lot of it comes down to what takes higher priority in a person's life.
Where I was raised, I knew lots of families with mixed religious backgrounds (i.e., mother and father raised in different religions). In almost every case, they just picked one or the other and went with it as a family. It was more important for them to participate together than to be in any particular denomination. The few exceptions tried to balance both religions and integrate both into family life. They seemed to pull what they liked from each and enjoyed the richness of diversity.
Most - though certainly not all - of the people I've known in LDS circles who initially marry within the faith but then experience a change in one spouse's beliefs have a very hard time with that. I think it has to do with LDS beliefs/cultural values regarding the LDS church being the one true church of God and people placing church adherence/activity/membership as a higher priority than a spousal relationship. No situation is alike, of course, but it seems to be a somewhat common thread.
I'm a card carrying atheist, but my religious upbringing has been very important to who I am. Much of my moral/ethical foundation comes from the religion I was raised in (with some tweaks.) Many Christians look down upon the Unitarian Church, but many of it humanistic foundations are the best of the majority of Christian religions. I have sat in on some religious services, and heard sermons where all I had to do was substitute a few words and exclude the references to God, and they were powerful and rewarding.
I'm non-religious, but a believer in a higher power. I grew up LDS, but had serious doubts when I was a teenager and decided I couldn't believe in the LDS truth claims anymore, based on the issues I had problems with (blacks & the priesthood, Lamanites becoming lighter skinned with righteousness). I found my own way and have not really looked back, and the availability of mountains of information about Mormonism on the Internet have confirmed my hunch from back in the late '70s. Fortunately, there has been a lot of change in LDS beliefs on race (which is good - no, it's fantastic - since I married an African American woman and still live in Utah).
For many years I went to church with my wife, to her black Baptist church, and it was a very rewarding experience, over all. They were very strong on the spirit and strongly oriented toward forgiveness and God's mercy, which was quite different than the "tone" at Southern Baptist churches we sometimes attended because they were closer. At that point I learned that much of what is taught and conveyed at church is based on culture: many blacks had experienced serious hardship (sometimes self-induced) and were thus focused on God's mercy and forgiveness, while the white Baptists were more oriented toward God's judgment, justice, and punishment, etc. The difference was striking, and kind of unnerving, but it helped me understand how religions can be so different.
I had learned to take the scriptural aspect of church with heavy, heavy amounts of salt, as scriptures are written by men, in different time periods, different circumstances, different cultures, and the interpretation of scripture evolves through time, as well, sometimes to be almost unrecognizable between eras. Example: during the slavery debate in our nation, the pro-slavery side argued the Bible sanctioned slavery, and the abolitionists really didn't have an answer to that point. Today, nobody believes that the Bible sanctions slavery.
In the LDS world, the racial stuff was very strongly believed and thought to be the absolute truth, with Brigham Young proclaiming that blacks would never have the priesthood until everyone else on Earth had a chance to accept the gospel, and Spencer Kimball claimed that Navajo kids who came up to school in Utah were visibly more righteous because in photographs when they went home their skin was lighter than their siblings and parents. (We now know this is from something called "winter".) Today, if you ask a young Mormon about these earlier teachings they have no idea what you're talking about, essentially they look at you as though you're fabricating lies about their church. So, things change through time.... a LOT.
And my circumstance has changed, too. Living in Bountiful, one of my sons decided to become LDS, and my wife recently converted and is devout. (Did I mention I'm glad the LDS views on race have taken a sharp turn away from previous beliefs?) Something resonates with them, which I respect. I used to believe much of the same things they do, although I've moved on and now take a more critical eye to what I previously believed, though in truth it occupies less and less of my consciousness over time, as I focus on just understanding and accepting other people, offer support and help where I can, and I derive my spiritual sustenance through nature, I'm a hiking & snow-shoeing fanatic, and have had many profound experiences in nature.
Being in a split religion marriage is not without challenges, though I understand the LDS mentality quite well - which helps me to not be offended get really pissed off - and the subsequent social pressure for me to come back into the fold and get sealed with my wife and son, and presumably pull the other kids into the church, as well.
I've tried to take the high road, and explained that I believe in the Hindu belief that there are multiple good paths in life, paths back to the divine, and that I see Mormonism is a respectable, good path. When I feel the pressure from them, I point out that I respect their path, and really wish they would respect mine, truly live the Golden Rule.
There's not really a good answer to that challenge for Mormons, as they're oriented toward converting others, and their world view necessarily looks down on other religions and other choices people have made, but pointing out their inability to reciprocate the respect I have for their path has kept them off my case for a few months now. Hopefully this "détente" lasts for a while.
I think they probably felt since my son and wife converted, it was only a matter of apologizing for some assumed past insult for me to break down and come humbly and joyously back into the fold, or whatever. I'm quite a ways past that possibility. Or, if I talk about the spirit resonating with me from the words of the Shoshone medicine man, they realize I'm so lost that it's a hopeless cause to reclaim me. (It's quite odd the lengths that have been gone to to try and bring me back in - pseudo-offers to be in the bishopric, etc. It's kind of flattering, but it really is an example of the gift of discernment being wildly off the mark, by people at the Stake President level.)
Since I left Mormonism I've found my own path, and have had lots of fulfilling, transcendent experiences, in a wide variety of settings, so I'm completely comfortable in my own skin, and have no doubts whatsoever about whether I made the right choice or not. And understanding the LDS mentality has helped me not be offended as they try different approaches at getting me back into the church. They mean well, they see the world a specific way, and while I express my respect for them, and support my wife and son in their direction, in order to return to that religion I would have to deny the truths I've learned since deciding to leave Mormonism. I told my wife "I would have to be fraud, an actor, to come back and pretend I believe that stuff. I don't think anyone wants that." She respects that, and things are working well, at this point. I love my son, and support him in his direction, but I kind of feel sorry for him, because he (naturally) wants our family to be together for eternity, etc. I've explained to him that I already strongly believe that's going to be case, and a temple ordinance doesn't change that. Still, he worries, and prays for me. It's hard to be angry with people who pray for you.
I don't believe you carry an atheist card.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
its fake. he uses it to get senior discounts at hotels and motels.
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