This podcast interview is quite interesting if you can make the time to listen to it:
http://www.fairblog.org/2013/11/06/f...hose-in-doubt/
I think skeptics, doubters, critics and believers alike will find something here.
This podcast interview is quite interesting if you can make the time to listen to it:
http://www.fairblog.org/2013/11/06/f...hose-in-doubt/
I think skeptics, doubters, critics and believers alike will find something here.
Last edited by LA Ute; 11-07-2013 at 03:40 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
At 18:30 the interviewer asks Bushman to comment on his statement that “rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip.” This follows:
[Richard Bushman speaking]
This was not my favorite segment but it gives you an idea. His comments on the Book of Abraham were interesting. I'll try to post more.Well, I think one of the problems is that you get dogmatism vs. dogmatism. So many of the people who have their faith shaken “knew for sure”; they had a certain testimony. So when they lose their testimony and then they “know for sure” that the Church is false. They are just as dogmatic after the change as before. Neither one of them is sound or based on a real search for understanding.
These things are just immensely complicated and there is no way that through picking through and looking at everything you can arrive at certain conclusions. That’s easy for me as a scholar to say because that’s the nature of historical knowledge. Every historian knows that the biggest questions are all unanswerable or you have very restrictive answers to most of the big questions.
So, I think the better way to say is “there is a way of looking that is favorable to the Church. You don’t have to interpret everything in a negative way.” So, all I aim when I talk to people is to keep the conversation open. Don’t close your mind. Don’t decide it’s now all over.
I’m trying to rehabilitate the word “investigator.” We make “investigators” a preliminary stage to full-fledged membership, but “investigator” is a wonderful description of a religious life. You’re always investigating It requires an open mind and a questing spirit, and out of that comes beautiful results, if we can tolerate it.
That’s my aim: to keep the conversation going and keep people looking at the possible meanings of all the things we turn over.
[Bill Reel speaking]
I think you hit on a beautiful point as you’re talking about that. If rather than we try to bury the critic and their argument, we simply say “hey, there’s other possible conclusions; other ways to look at this information,” then all of a sudden agency is back on the table. For those people who want to lead with faith, now they have two conclusions they can go to, and with faith being on the table, with both conclusions being reasonable and perhaps valid, it then puts the choice back in their own hands. Which I think, more times than not, can lead one to stay in the Church and make their way through it and figure it out.
[Richard Bushman speaking]
Yeah, I’m with you 100% on that.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"Well, I think one of the problems is that you get dogmatism vs. dogmatism. So many of the people who have their faith shaken “knew for sure”; they had a certain testimony. So when they lose their testimony and then they “know for sure” that the Church is false. They are just as dogmatic after the change as before. Neither one of them is sound or based on a real search for understanding."Originally Posted by LA Ute
Really? Because the church is the organization that spends vasts amounts of time "encouraging" members to bear their testimony that they KNOW the church is true. And now this apologetic is saying that is not sound as if the members are mistaken in doing this? It's eerily similar to excuses about not teaching that Smith interpreted the plates by looking at a rock in his hat. It was the church who intentionally misled on that topic, not the members, yet official apologetics claim there was just a "misunderstanding" of what happened. The church then wonders why those who leave are pissed?
Bushman's excuses piss me off more than the actual misleading in the first place. This stuff is not helpful. In fact, it harms more than it helps.
Last edited by Two Utes; 11-08-2013 at 02:17 PM.
Two Utes,
I don't see Bushman as an apologist - I don't think what he's suggesting is necessarily what the Church would suggest. I really like his suggestion that people of faith embrace the description of investigator. I also agree - from experience with a number of friends who have or are leaving the Church - with his dogmatism vs. dogmatism comment. I'm struck by the equal certainty these friends have about either a new-found faith or their new-found atheism.
I share your frustration with the how the church "encourages" members to share testimony. It's going to take some real courage and commitment of those believing and doubting willing to share those publicly for the tide to turn even just a little. It's also going to take some bishops stepping back from the brainwashing-like method of encouraging the "I know..." format to their young men and young women. I'm not against encouraging young people to express spiritual feelings. I think it can be a good thing but I'm for encouraging authenticity in that expression not imitation of the brethren, the stake presidency or the bishop.
My point is it is the church who purposely created the dogmatism. Now this guy is suggesting the the "members" are misguided in taking this approach, as if somehow the church isn't responsible.
Good points, 'biq. Two Utes, I urge you to listen to the podcast while you're driving or working out or walking your dog. Bushman is totally sympathetic to your views. I only quoted that one part because it was already transcribed somewhere. (I'm lazy, in other words.) Later, Bushman goes right into the who question if "I know" and makes a great case for letting people feel OK about simply saying "I believe." There's is more like that in the podcast.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I thought this was pretty good, and at least interesting:
How to Stay Mormon When You're Tired of Mormons
Last edited by LA Ute; 05-18-2015 at 10:09 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
An interesting response:
Some Thoughts on Discipleship and “Staying Mormon”
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
For me, the most valuable part of that post is the rock wall analogy.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
I liked that too.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Passed this along to my 17 y/o daughter who struggles on 2 fronts: the weirdness of the church, and getting caught up in the "weeds" of the church. For example,a recent mutual activity was a treasure hunt at the mall to hunt down members dressed as early church prophets and pioneers. Thats just bizarre. On the second front, it's too easy to get sucked in to the oddball teachings of early leaders, or learn about some of the uncomfortable history of the church.
Fortunately, I'm not an all-in guy so am able to take a measured approach to what bothers her. Plus we have a bishop that has been in her shoes, is empathetic, and meets with her regularly. I try to get her to focus on the atonement and the plan of salvation, reminding her that history in general is a messy business, and the history of the church is no different. You try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
I like, respect, and support your approach.
For me it's really eye-opening to attend church in other countries -- or even in US locations distant from Utah. To me it is a reminder of how much cultural silliness goes on inside "Zion." The gospel is so much bigger than local cultural traditions. This is not a knock on Utah at all -- I love Utah. We just need to acknowledge our warts, that's all. Meanwhile, if we're serious about our faith, we have to love and be patient with the wart-bearers too. We're all just trying to figure life out and do our best.
Last edited by LA Ute; 05-20-2015 at 11:43 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"I know" vs "I believe" - I believe that there are some out there who truly know what they testify about. I believe that the majority of the rest of us hope and/or believe that what we testify about is true. Being great followers, however, we hear leaders saying "I know" and believe that we too must say I know in order to be faithful LDS. For myself, most things I hope and believe in. There are a few things, however, that I know. I have learned to the point of knowledge that in general, my life is better, our relationship with one another is better and our relationship with our children is better during those periods of time when my wife and I read the Book of Mormon and pray together than during those times when we are not. This does not mean that we consistently do these things. We go through periods of time when we lapse in our reading and praying until we are almost compelled to return to those two things to get our lives and our relationship back on course. Stubborn folks that we are, we recognize the need to start engaging in these practices again and still refuse to do them for weeks because we don't like being forced to do stuff.
Well said. Faith is one listed of the basic principles of the gospel, not knowledge. No one should be ashamed of saying they beleive or have faith instead of saying they know. I have said it from the pulpit myself, and there didn't seem to be any repurcussions. But something in the culture has warped this faith vs. knowledge dynamic.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
Good thoughts. To me "'know" means different things in different contexts. When Jesus said "Ye shall know the truth, and the Truth shall make you free," or Moroni said "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things," they're talking about spiritual knowledge. What they're talking about is really a level of belief that is close to certainty. We could probably do a better job of articulating that. I recognize that we are trying to express something that is ineffable, but I still think the "I know with every fiber of my being" talk is confusing to a lot of people.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
For those interested in the "Letter to a CES Director."
The CES Letter: A Closer Look
http://debunking-cesletter.com/wp-co...r-10-9-15a.pdf
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Interesting piece by Peggy:
Memo to Mormons: Those essays have been approved by the faith’s highest leaders
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...se-essays-have
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"Few American theologies are more complex than that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but its flagship Brigham Young University teaches off-the-shelf, industry-standard evolution. That has been the case since 1931, when the church officially said: 'Leave biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research.' … What the church requires is only belief 'that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race,' says Gordon Hinckley, the church’s living prophet. Scientists can speculate on the rest, he says, recalling his own study of anthropology and geology: 'Studied all about it. Didn’t worry me then. Doesn’t worry me now.'”
Larry A. Witham, Where Darwin Meets the Bible (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 2002), 176-177.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Is this supposed to put doubting Thomases at ease? I really don't see how the rest of the quote follows from the premise that LDS theology is so complex. I'd draw the opposite conclusion. By the way, Oxford University Press puts out a fair amount of crap. Also, I disagree that science is about "speculation". On the contrary. But as a trial lawyer I'm sure you know that.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I think you're exalting form over substance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
'Biq makes an essential point, if the goal is understanding each other.
There was a lot of fire and brimstone in LDS teachings, like telling kids they're going to Outer Darkness if they lose their testimony. This heavy sell caused a lot of fear and guilt, which was coupled with very strong "certainty" about other teachings and truth claims.
We now know there was a lot of detail left out of what was previously taught about church history, and a lot of the old teachings are no longer emphasized, such as the belief that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church".
Many disaffected Mormons believe they were taught a "whitewashed" version of LDS history and theology, but based on what former church historian Marlin Jensen said, I think that might be an overly harsh term. (Jensen said they didn't teach all the details that are now causing doubts because they didn't think it was essential.)
I think the LDS church has adjusted impressively to the avalanche of historical information that is troubling many, and Richard Bushman's book about Joseph Smith does a good job of covering thorny issues, but from a faith-promoting perspective.
My hunch is LDS youth today are getting a more positive version of Mormon theology, the fire and brimstone has gone out of style. The negative experience many of my generation absorbed is less likely today, though issues like homosexuality and women and the priesthood might color people's views of things in the future.
EDIT - I had to trim the previous epistle. That was excessive.
Last edited by Ma'ake; 08-23-2015 at 06:18 PM.
Oh, the irony. Another one that reads like The Onion.....
http://www.sltrib.com/home/3032642-1...lk-at-byu-says
Seriously, lawyers, are students at BYU not protected from this under the Equal Protection Clause?
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
It would seem to be so much better if byu-P would simply allow students who leave the church to remain in good standing and pay the non-LDS tuition rate. Instead they can/will pull their ecclesiastical endorsement, place holds on records, and tell future schools that the student left byu for violations of the Honor Code. At most schools that means the student got caught cheating on a test or some other kind of academic malfeasance, when all that really happened was they changed their opinion on a specific religion.
It is especially egregious because a Baptist student can convert to Catholicism, then to Methodist, then Buddhist, then to Flying Spaghetti Monster, then to Ba'Hai, then ultimately to Hare Krishna after a transcendental experience at the Festival of Colors, and nobody at the school will care one bit.
But if any of those transitions are from LD-s to anything else, and the Honor Code office finds out about it, then the student is screwed. They will get treated about the same as a poster on Cougarstadium who dares to go through a faith transition.
Should they have to back pay the discounted tuition the recieved too?
What about a PEF concept for discounted tuition at BYU? You pay back your discount over time.
That could work, almost like a lease. Since students already pay 7% interest on the PEF loans it would be a moneymaker (especially since all of the principle plus the interest goes back into the church's coffers anyhow).
UMS, the existence of the Freebyu movement (comprising many hundreds of students and drawing on thousands of stories) only shows that your mission comp was a statistical outlier. Also, Football. (Bronco really cares about his players and is good at running interference for them, acting under the belief that his #1 goal is to turn his players into college graduates who are outstanding citizens)
LA, it isn't about causing mischief. That is an egregious assumption on your part. For many people who leave the church it is the single most emotionally painful experience of their lives and one which they would never wish on their worst enemy.
Also, If a student transfers as a Sophomore, no harm/no foul (beyond relocation hassles) and they can graduate on essentially the same timeline. But Jrs and Srs who transfer can delay graduation by up to a few years. That is a real loss of up to two years of salary for grads who go straight into the workforce.
For students who plan to go on to grad school anyway it is smart for them to just keep their heads down and move on after getting the diploma, hoping some do-gooder roommate doesn't spoil everything for them by dropping a dime to the HCO saying so-and-so 'has doubts and is an Apostate...'. The chances are good that the HCO will force them to do crazy things to remove the hold from the record (e.g. write 5-page essays in General Conference Talks - yes that happens) or force them to leave the school. It might simply depend on whether the student's Bishop is a vindictive type who would withdraw the EE.
Sancho, you nailed it precisely. Perhaps the biggest problem with the CES schools is the fact that the students do not bear the cost of education. If students all paid ~$25-35k tuition (typical mid-major private school
Where are you getting that 7% interest rate number for PEF? I happen to know and have helped mentor a few kids in that program and they aren't paying anywhere near that (interest rate covers inflation and currency rates basically) They also get almost a 40% reduction in their principle if they get good grades, pay on time, get a job in their vocation and a few other things. There are plenty of things to criticize in the church but that isn't one of them. I wish the government would set up a similar system for underprivileged kids.That could work, almost like a lease. Since students already pay 7% interest on the PEF loans it would be a moneymaker (especially since all of the principle plus the interest goes back into the church's coffers anyhow).
UMS, the existence of the Freebyu movement (comprising many hundreds of students and drawing on thousands of stories) only shows that your mission comp was a statistical outlier. Also, Football. (Bronco really cares about his players and is good at running interference for them, acting under the belief that his #1 goal is to turn his players into college graduates who are outstanding citizens)
LA, it isn't about causing mischief. That is an egregious assumption on your part. For many people who leave the church it is the single most emotionally painful experience of their lives and one which they would never wish on their worst enemy.
Also, If a student transfers as a Sophomore, no harm/no foul (beyond relocation hassles) and they can graduate on essentially the same timeline. But Jrs and Srs who transfer can delay graduation by up to a few years. That is a real loss of up to two years of salary for grads who go straight into the workforce.
For students who plan to go on to grad school anyway it is smart for them to just keep their heads down and move on after getting the diploma, hoping some do-gooder roommate doesn't spoil everything for them by dropping a dime to the HCO saying so-and-so 'has doubts and is an Apostate...'. The chances are good that the HCO will force them to do crazy things to remove the hold from the record (e.g. write 5-page essays in General Conference Talks - yes that happens) or force them to leave the school. It might simply depend on whether the student's Bishop is a vindictive type who would withdraw the EE.
Sancho, you nailed it precisely. Perhaps the biggest problem with the CES schools is the fact that the students do not bear the cost of education. If students all paid ~$25-35k tuition (typical mid-major private school
Go to LDS business college and you have kids from all walks of life who are part of PEF.
On a side note, discounted tuition isn't just going to rich kids. It has been a major advantage for my niece who wouldn't be able to afford going to anything better than a community college without it. She is a top notch student and with some scholarships can now get an education from, as much as this pains me to say, a quality school.
BYU should fix this issue, or give someone a reasonable path of they do leave the faith, I agree. How exactly that is done (I was being only partly facetious about back pay on discounted tuition) I am not sure.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"Mischief" was the wrong word, I admit. My concept was that many would want to hang around and agitate. That is OK on normal campuses but on a private religious one you don't get to do that. Honor Code, etc., blah blah blah. My view is, if you don't want to play by the rules you agreed to going in, move to a different playground.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
On Not Being an Ex-MormonI recently had the opportunity to see Jeremy Runnells talk at a café off Main and Broadway in downtown SLC. He was there to talk about his pending church disciplinary court (if you don’t know what I’m talking about, go here), and though I’m glad I went, I have to admit it was a pretty awkward experience for me. From what I could tell, the crowd was overwhelmingly ex-Mormon — which is pretty understandable, given the circumstances — and I am still an active believing member. I don’t think I had ever fully appreciated the vibrancy of the existing ex-Mormon subculture until that event. The speakers (which included John Dehlin of Mormon Stories fame) seemed tapped into a world full of its own ideological consistency. There was a rhythm to the communication. A vocabulary so insular, I may finally know how my non-member friends felt attending all those YA dances I dragged them to. It was a world that I’m simply not a part of. . . .
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
EDIT: Read the article, my "take" isn't really valid now. lol.
Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 10-07-2015 at 01:20 PM.
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