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Thread: The Thread about LDS with doubts

  1. #1
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Thread about LDS with doubts

    This podcast interview is quite interesting if you can make the time to listen to it:

    http://www.fairblog.org/2013/11/06/f...hose-in-doubt/

    I think skeptics, doubters, critics and believers alike will find something here.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 11-07-2013 at 04:40 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #2
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    At 18:30 the interviewer asks Bushman to comment on his statement that “rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip.” This follows:

    [Richard Bushman speaking]

    Well, I think one of the problems is that you get dogmatism vs. dogmatism. So many of the people who have their faith shaken “knew for sure”; they had a certain testimony. So when they lose their testimony and then they “know for sure” that the Church is false. They are just as dogmatic after the change as before. Neither one of them is sound or based on a real search for understanding.

    These things are just immensely complicated and there is no way that through picking through and looking at everything you can arrive at certain conclusions. That’s easy for me as a scholar to say because that’s the nature of historical knowledge. Every historian knows that the biggest questions are all unanswerable or you have very restrictive answers to most of the big questions.

    So, I think the better way to say is “there is a way of looking that is favorable to the Church. You don’t have to interpret everything in a negative way.” So, all I aim when I talk to people is to keep the conversation open. Don’t close your mind. Don’t decide it’s now all over.

    I’m trying to rehabilitate the word “investigator.” We make “investigators” a preliminary stage to full-fledged membership, but “investigator” is a wonderful description of a religious life. You’re always investigating It requires an open mind and a questing spirit, and out of that comes beautiful results, if we can tolerate it.

    That’s my aim: to keep the conversation going and keep people looking at the possible meanings of all the things we turn over.

    [Bill Reel speaking]

    I think you hit on a beautiful point as you’re talking about that. If rather than we try to bury the critic and their argument, we simply say “hey, there’s other possible conclusions; other ways to look at this information,” then all of a sudden agency is back on the table. For those people who want to lead with faith, now they have two conclusions they can go to, and with faith being on the table, with both conclusions being reasonable and perhaps valid, it then puts the choice back in their own hands. Which I think, more times than not, can lead one to stay in the Church and make their way through it and figure it out.

    [Richard Bushman speaking]

    Yeah, I’m with you 100% on that.
    This was not my favorite segment but it gives you an idea. His comments on the Book of Abraham were interesting. I'll try to post more.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    At 18:30 the interviewer asks Bushman to comment on his statement that “rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip.” This follows:

    [Richard Bushman speaking]


    This was not my favorite segment but it gives you an idea. His comments on the Book of Abraham were interesting. I'll try to post more.
    "Well, I think one of the problems is that you get dogmatism vs. dogmatism. So many of the people who have their faith shaken “knew for sure”; they had a certain testimony. So when they lose their testimony and then they “know for sure” that the Church is false. They are just as dogmatic after the change as before. Neither one of them is sound or based on a real search for understanding."


    Really? Because the church is the organization that spends vasts amounts of time "encouraging" members to bear their testimony that they KNOW the church is true. And now this apologetic is saying that is not sound as if the members are mistaken in doing this? It's eerily similar to excuses about not teaching that Smith interpreted the plates by looking at a rock in his hat. It was the church who intentionally misled on that topic, not the members, yet official apologetics claim there was just a "misunderstanding" of what happened. The church then wonders why those who leave are pissed?

    Bushman's excuses piss me off more than the actual misleading in the first place. This stuff is not helpful. In fact, it harms more than it helps.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 11-08-2013 at 03:17 PM.

  4. #4
    Two Utes,
    I don't see Bushman as an apologist - I don't think what he's suggesting is necessarily what the Church would suggest. I really like his suggestion that people of faith embrace the description of investigator. I also agree - from experience with a number of friends who have or are leaving the Church - with his dogmatism vs. dogmatism comment. I'm struck by the equal certainty these friends have about either a new-found faith or their new-found atheism.

    I share your frustration with the how the church "encourages" members to share testimony. It's going to take some real courage and commitment of those believing and doubting willing to share those publicly for the tide to turn even just a little. It's also going to take some bishops stepping back from the brainwashing-like method of encouraging the "I know..." format to their young men and young women. I'm not against encouraging young people to express spiritual feelings. I think it can be a good thing but I'm for encouraging authenticity in that expression not imitation of the brethren, the stake presidency or the bishop.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Two Utes,
    I don't see Bushman as an apologist - I don't think what he's suggesting is necessarily what the Church would suggest. I really like his suggestion that people of faith embrace the description of investigator. I also agree - from experience with a number of friends who have or are leaving the Church - with his dogmatism vs. dogmatism comment. I'm struck by the equal certainty these friends have about either a new-found faith or their new-found atheism.

    I share your frustration with the how the church "encourages" members to share testimony. It's going to take some real courage and commitment of those believing and doubting willing to share those publicly for the tide to turn even just a little. It's also going to take some bishops stepping back from the brainwashing-like method of encouraging the "I know..." format to their young men and young women. I'm not against encouraging young people to express spiritual feelings. I think it can be a good thing but I'm for encouraging authenticity in that expression not imitation of the brethren, the stake presidency or the bishop.

    My point is it is the church who purposely created the dogmatism. Now this guy is suggesting the the "members" are misguided in taking this approach, as if somehow the church isn't responsible.

  6. #6
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Two Utes,
    I don't see Bushman as an apologist - I don't think what he's suggesting is necessarily what the Church would suggest. I really like his suggestion that people of faith embrace the description of investigator. I also agree - from experience with a number of friends who have or are leaving the Church - with his dogmatism vs. dogmatism comment. I'm struck by the equal certainty these friends have about either a new-found faith or their new-found atheism.

    I share your frustration with the how the church "encourages" members to share testimony. It's going to take some real courage and commitment of those believing and doubting willing to share those publicly for the tide to turn even just a little. It's also going to take some bishops stepping back from the brainwashing-like method of encouraging the "I know..." format to their young men and young women. I'm not against encouraging young people to express spiritual feelings. I think it can be a good thing but I'm for encouraging authenticity in that expression not imitation of the brethren, the stake presidency or the bishop.
    Good points, 'biq. Two Utes, I urge you to listen to the podcast while you're driving or working out or walking your dog. Bushman is totally sympathetic to your views. I only quoted that one part because it was already transcribed somewhere. (I'm lazy, in other words.) Later, Bushman goes right into the who question if "I know" and makes a great case for letting people feel OK about simply saying "I believe." There's is more like that in the podcast.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #7
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I thought this was pretty good, and at least interesting:

    How to Stay Mormon When You're Tired of Mormons
    Last edited by LA Ute; 05-18-2015 at 11:09 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #8
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought this was pretty good, and at least interesting:

    How to Stay Mormon When You're Tired of Mormons
    An interesting response:

    Some Thoughts on Discipleship and “Staying Mormon”


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought this was pretty good, and at least interesting:

    How to Stay Mormon When You're Tired of Mormons
    For me, the most valuable part of that post is the rock wall analogy.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  10. #10
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    For me, the most valuable part of that post is the rock wall analogy.
    I liked that too.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought this was pretty good, and at least interesting:

    How to Stay Mormon When You're Tired of Mormons

    Passed this along to my 17 y/o daughter who struggles on 2 fronts: the weirdness of the church, and getting caught up in the "weeds" of the church. For example,a recent mutual activity was a treasure hunt at the mall to hunt down members dressed as early church prophets and pioneers. Thats just bizarre. On the second front, it's too easy to get sucked in to the oddball teachings of early leaders, or learn about some of the uncomfortable history of the church.

    Fortunately, I'm not an all-in guy so am able to take a measured approach to what bothers her. Plus we have a bishop that has been in her shoes, is empathetic, and meets with her regularly. I try to get her to focus on the atonement and the plan of salvation, reminding her that history in general is a messy business, and the history of the church is no different. You try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  12. #12
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Passed this along to my 17 y/o daughter who struggles on 2 fronts: the weirdness of the church, and getting caught up in the "weeds" of the church. For example,a recent mutual activity was a treasure hunt at the mall to hunt down members dressed as early church prophets and pioneers. Thats just bizarre. On the second front, it's too easy to get sucked in to the oddball teachings of early leaders, or learn about some of the uncomfortable history of the church.

    Fortunately, I'm not an all-in guy so am able to take a measured approach to what bothers her. Plus we have a bishop that has been in her shoes, is empathetic, and meets with her regularly. I try to get her to focus on the atonement and the plan of salvation, reminding her that history in general is a messy business, and the history of the church is no different. You try not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    I like, respect, and support your approach.

    For me it's really eye-opening to attend church in other countries -- or even in US locations distant from Utah. To me it is a reminder of how much cultural silliness goes on inside "Zion." The gospel is so much bigger than local cultural traditions. This is not a knock on Utah at all -- I love Utah. We just need to acknowledge our warts, that's all. Meanwhile, if we're serious about our faith, we have to love and be patient with the wart-bearers too. We're all just trying to figure life out and do our best.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 05-20-2015 at 12:43 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #13
    "I know" vs "I believe" - I believe that there are some out there who truly know what they testify about. I believe that the majority of the rest of us hope and/or believe that what we testify about is true. Being great followers, however, we hear leaders saying "I know" and believe that we too must say I know in order to be faithful LDS. For myself, most things I hope and believe in. There are a few things, however, that I know. I have learned to the point of knowledge that in general, my life is better, our relationship with one another is better and our relationship with our children is better during those periods of time when my wife and I read the Book of Mormon and pray together than during those times when we are not. This does not mean that we consistently do these things. We go through periods of time when we lapse in our reading and praying until we are almost compelled to return to those two things to get our lives and our relationship back on course. Stubborn folks that we are, we recognize the need to start engaging in these practices again and still refuse to do them for weeks because we don't like being forced to do stuff.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    "I know" vs "I believe" - I believe that there are some out there who truly know what they testify about. I believe that the majority of the rest of us hope and/or believe that what we testify about is true. Being great followers, however, we hear leaders saying "I know" and believe that we too must say I know in order to be faithful LDS. For myself, most things I hope and believe in. There are a few things, however, that I know. I have learned to the point of knowledge that in general, my life is better, our relationship with one another is better and our relationship with our children is better during those periods of time when my wife and I read the Book of Mormon and pray together than during those times when we are not. This does not mean that we consistently do these things. We go through periods of time when we lapse in our reading and praying until we are almost compelled to return to those two things to get our lives and our relationship back on course. Stubborn folks that we are, we recognize the need to start engaging in these practices again and still refuse to do them for weeks because we don't like being forced to do stuff.
    Well said. Faith is one listed of the basic principles of the gospel, not knowledge. No one should be ashamed of saying they beleive or have faith instead of saying they know. I have said it from the pulpit myself, and there didn't seem to be any repurcussions. But something in the culture has warped this faith vs. knowledge dynamic.
    I saw a door that said exit only. So I entered through it and went up to the guy working there and said "I have good news. You have severely underestimated that door over there. By like a hundred percent." Demetri Marti

  15. #15
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    "I know" vs "I believe" - I believe that there are some out there who truly know what they testify about. I believe that the majority of the rest of us hope and/or believe that what we testify about is true. Being great followers, however, we hear leaders saying "I know" and believe that we too must say I know in order to be faithful LDS. For myself, most things I hope and believe in. There are a few things, however, that I know. I have learned to the point of knowledge that in general, my life is better, our relationship with one another is better and our relationship with our children is better during those periods of time when my wife and I read the Book of Mormon and pray together than during those times when we are not. This does not mean that we consistently do these things. We go through periods of time when we lapse in our reading and praying until we are almost compelled to return to those two things to get our lives and our relationship back on course. Stubborn folks that we are, we recognize the need to start engaging in these practices again and still refuse to do them for weeks because we don't like being forced to do stuff.
    Good thoughts. To me "'know" means different things in different contexts. When Jesus said "Ye shall know the truth, and the Truth shall make you free," or Moroni said "And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things," they're talking about spiritual knowledge. What they're talking about is really a level of belief that is close to certainty. We could probably do a better job of articulating that. I recognize that we are trying to express something that is ineffable, but I still think the "I know with every fiber of my being" talk is confusing to a lot of people.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #16
    Alma 32 is still the best explanation of how this works, imo. We plant a seed, we nourish it, and it grows and bears fruit, and we know, therefore, that it is a good seed.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  17. #17
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting piece by Peggy:

    Memo to Mormons: Those essays have been approved by the faith’s highest leaders

    http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...se-essays-have

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #18
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "Few American theologies are more complex than that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but its flagship Brigham Young University teaches off-the-shelf, industry-standard evolution. That has been the case since 1931, when the church officially said: 'Leave biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research.' … What the church requires is only belief 'that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race,' says Gordon Hinckley, the church’s living prophet. Scientists can speculate on the rest, he says, recalling his own study of anthropology and geology: 'Studied all about it. Didn’t worry me then. Doesn’t worry me now.'”

    Larry A. Witham, Where Darwin Meets the Bible (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 2002), 176-177.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    "Few American theologies are more complex than that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but its flagship Brigham Young University teaches off-the-shelf, industry-standard evolution. That has been the case since 1931, when the church officially said: 'Leave biology, archaeology, and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research.' … What the church requires is only belief 'that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race,' says Gordon Hinckley, the church’s living prophet. Scientists can speculate on the rest, he says, recalling his own study of anthropology and geology: 'Studied all about it. Didn’t worry me then. Doesn’t worry me now.'”

    Larry A. Witham, Where Darwin Meets the Bible (Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 2002), 176-177.
    Is this supposed to put doubting Thomases at ease? I really don't see how the rest of the quote follows from the premise that LDS theology is so complex. I'd draw the opposite conclusion. By the way, Oxford University Press puts out a fair amount of crap. Also, I disagree that science is about "speculation". On the contrary. But as a trial lawyer I'm sure you know that.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  20. #20
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Is this supposed to put doubting Thomases at ease? I really don't see how the rest of the quote follows from the premise that LDS theology is so complex. I'd draw the opposite conclusion. By the way, Oxford University Press puts out a fair amount of crap. Also, I disagree that science is about "speculation". On the contrary. But as a trial lawyer I'm sure you know that.
    I think you're exalting form over substance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #21
    'Biq makes an essential point, if the goal is understanding each other.

    There was a lot of fire and brimstone in LDS teachings, like telling kids they're going to Outer Darkness if they lose their testimony. This heavy sell caused a lot of fear and guilt, which was coupled with very strong "certainty" about other teachings and truth claims.

    We now know there was a lot of detail left out of what was previously taught about church history, and a lot of the old teachings are no longer emphasized, such as the belief that the Catholic Church was the "great and abominable church".

    Many disaffected Mormons believe they were taught a "whitewashed" version of LDS history and theology, but based on what former church historian Marlin Jensen said, I think that might be an overly harsh term. (Jensen said they didn't teach all the details that are now causing doubts because they didn't think it was essential.)

    I think the LDS church has adjusted impressively to the avalanche of historical information that is troubling many, and Richard Bushman's book about Joseph Smith does a good job of covering thorny issues, but from a faith-promoting perspective.

    My hunch is LDS youth today are getting a more positive version of Mormon theology, the fire and brimstone has gone out of style. The negative experience many of my generation absorbed is less likely today, though issues like homosexuality and women and the priesthood might color people's views of things in the future.

    EDIT - I had to trim the previous epistle. That was excessive.
    Last edited by Ma'ake; 08-23-2015 at 07:18 PM.

  22. #22
    Oh, the irony. Another one that reads like The Onion.....


    http://www.sltrib.com/home/3032642-1...lk-at-byu-says


    Seriously, lawyers, are students at BYU not protected from this under the Equal Protection Clause?
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  23. #23
    It would seem to be so much better if byu-P would simply allow students who leave the church to remain in good standing and pay the non-LDS tuition rate. Instead they can/will pull their ecclesiastical endorsement, place holds on records, and tell future schools that the student left byu for violations of the Honor Code. At most schools that means the student got caught cheating on a test or some other kind of academic malfeasance, when all that really happened was they changed their opinion on a specific religion.

    It is especially egregious because a Baptist student can convert to Catholicism, then to Methodist, then Buddhist, then to Flying Spaghetti Monster, then to Ba'Hai, then ultimately to Hare Krishna after a transcendental experience at the Festival of Colors, and nobody at the school will care one bit.

    But if any of those transitions are from LD-s to anything else, and the Honor Code office finds out about it, then the student is screwed. They will get treated about the same as a poster on Cougarstadium who dares to go through a faith transition.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    It would seem to be so much better if byu-P would simply allow students who leave the church to remain in good standing and pay the non-LDS tuition rate. Instead they can/will pull their ecclesiastical endorsement, place holds on records, and tell future schools that the student left byu for violations of the Honor Code. At most schools that means the student got caught cheating on a test or some other kind of academic malfeasance, when all that really happened was they changed their opinion on a specific religion.

    It is especially egregious because a Baptist student can convert to Catholicism, then to Methodist, then Buddhist, then to Flying Spaghetti Monster, then to Ba'Hai, then ultimately to Hare Krishna after a transcendental experience at the Festival of Colors, and nobody at the school will care one bit.

    But if any of those transitions are from LD-s to anything else, and the Honor Code office finds out about it, then the student is screwed. They will get treated about the same as a poster on Cougarstadium who dares to go through a faith transition.

    Should they have to back pay the discounted tuition the recieved too?

  25. #25
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I think that people who leave the church but want to stay at BYU are a little bit nuts. I also wonder if they want to stay just to cause trouble.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think that people who leave the church but want to stay at BYU are a little bit nuts. I also wonder if they want to stay just to cause trouble.
    Couldn't you say the same thing about anyone who isn't LDS? Why admit anyone who isn't LDS in the first place. Oh wait. Football. Never mind


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    ...... I also wonder if they want to stay just to cause trouble.
    Presumptuous. May want to continue in the accounting program, for example. One of the best in the country, and opens doors to many good opportunities. Also, a strong alumni connection.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    It's been a while since I ranted about BYU tuition. Thanks for reminding me.

    So much about the LDS church is built around an idea of fairness. Tithing is 10% for everyone. Callings are rotated around and even voted on (at least symbolically). Ward budgets are not larger for wards in Federal Heights than they are for wards in Rose Park. Missions cost the same regardless of location.

    Then there's BYU. We have everyone subsidizing college tuition for the few kids who are accepted. The kids who are rejected subsidize the tuition of the kids who are accepted. Then the general authorities come and tell them to be humble because they are a small group receiving special treatment, but all they hear is "you are smart and BYU-Idaho and UVU are for dumb people." The real kicker is that most of the accepted kids could afford to pay a real tuition. They don't even need the tuition assistance they are receiving. I would love to see BYU go to a need-based scholarship system like most other private schools. Let the rich kids pay $20,000 a year. Or subsidize every member in any college. Many foreign mormons have the PEF. Now that's a system that seems fair.
    What about a PEF concept for discounted tuition at BYU? You pay back your discount over time.

  29. #29
    EDIT: Read the article, my "take" isn't really valid now. lol.
    Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 10-07-2015 at 02:20 PM.

  30. #30
    There was a kid in my mission who either straight up left the church while out there, or very shortly afterwards (he was fairly new when I left so Ive heard several accounts). At any rate, he completed his two years and then became a youth pastor/advisor of some kind at a Christian church in Utah County almost immediately thereafter. Bronco knew, heck, the guy put it on his facebook page. Anyway, he completed his three years post mission playing for the cougars. This makes me wonder if they bent the rules for him.

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