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Thread: The Thread about LDS with doubts

  1. #31
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Presumptuous. May want to continue in the accounting program, for example. One of the best in the country, and opens doors to many good opportunities. Also, a strong alumni connection.
    I suppose you are right about many people.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    What about a PEF concept for discounted tuition at BYU? You pay back your discount over time.
    That could work, almost like a lease. Since students already pay 7% interest on the PEF loans it would be a moneymaker (especially since all of the principle plus the interest goes back into the church's coffers anyhow).

    UMS, the existence of the Freebyu movement (comprising many hundreds of students and drawing on thousands of stories) only shows that your mission comp was a statistical outlier. Also, Football. (Bronco really cares about his players and is good at running interference for them, acting under the belief that his #1 goal is to turn his players into college graduates who are outstanding citizens)

    LA, it isn't about causing mischief. That is an egregious assumption on your part. For many people who leave the church it is the single most emotionally painful experience of their lives and one which they would never wish on their worst enemy.
    Also, If a student transfers as a Sophomore, no harm/no foul (beyond relocation hassles) and they can graduate on essentially the same timeline. But Jrs and Srs who transfer can delay graduation by up to a few years. That is a real loss of up to two years of salary for grads who go straight into the workforce.
    For students who plan to go on to grad school anyway it is smart for them to just keep their heads down and move on after getting the diploma, hoping some do-gooder roommate doesn't spoil everything for them by dropping a dime to the HCO saying so-and-so 'has doubts and is an Apostate...'. The chances are good that the HCO will force them to do crazy things to remove the hold from the record (e.g. write 5-page essays in General Conference Talks - yes that happens) or force them to leave the school. It might simply depend on whether the student's Bishop is a vindictive type who would withdraw the EE.

    Sancho, you nailed it precisely. Perhaps the biggest problem with the CES schools is the fact that the students do not bear the cost of education. If students all paid ~$25-35k tuition (typical mid-major private school ), with stipends based on need, then the admissions policy would seem to be far more egalitarian. As it is now it seems the Widow's Mite from Ecuador goes to pay tuition for the rich kids from Alpine and Pepperwood who can afford to go anywhere. And it would severely cut down on the number of applicants, who view byu as extremely cheap and also a decent education. As it stands now byu is barely more expensive than our community colleges, and is significant cheaper than our state colleges (esp UW, which is now $20k/yr minus housing for in-state).

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    That could work, almost like a lease. Since students already pay 7% interest on the PEF loans it would be a moneymaker (especially since all of the principle plus the interest goes back into the church's coffers anyhow).

    UMS, the existence of the Freebyu movement (comprising many hundreds of students and drawing on thousands of stories) only shows that your mission comp was a statistical outlier. Also, Football. (Bronco really cares about his players and is good at running interference for them, acting under the belief that his #1 goal is to turn his players into college graduates who are outstanding citizens)

    LA, it isn't about causing mischief. That is an egregious assumption on your part. For many people who leave the church it is the single most emotionally painful experience of their lives and one which they would never wish on their worst enemy.
    Also, If a student transfers as a Sophomore, no harm/no foul (beyond relocation hassles) and they can graduate on essentially the same timeline. But Jrs and Srs who transfer can delay graduation by up to a few years. That is a real loss of up to two years of salary for grads who go straight into the workforce.
    For students who plan to go on to grad school anyway it is smart for them to just keep their heads down and move on after getting the diploma, hoping some do-gooder roommate doesn't spoil everything for them by dropping a dime to the HCO saying so-and-so 'has doubts and is an Apostate...'. The chances are good that the HCO will force them to do crazy things to remove the hold from the record (e.g. write 5-page essays in General Conference Talks - yes that happens) or force them to leave the school. It might simply depend on whether the student's Bishop is a vindictive type who would withdraw the EE.

    Sancho, you nailed it precisely. Perhaps the biggest problem with the CES schools is the fact that the students do not bear the cost of education. If students all paid ~$25-35k tuition (typical mid-major private school ), with stipends based on need, then the admissions policy would seem to be far more egalitarian. As it is now it seems the Widow's Mite from Ecuador goes to pay tuition for the rich kids from Alpine and Pepperwood who can afford to go anywhere. And it would severely cut down on the number of applicants, who view byu as extremely cheap and also a decent education. As it stands now byu is barely more expensive than our community colleges, and is significant cheaper than our state colleges (esp UW, which is now $20k/yr minus housing for in-state).
    Where are you getting that 7% interest rate number for PEF? I happen to know and have helped mentor a few kids in that program and they aren't paying anywhere near that (interest rate covers inflation and currency rates basically) They also get almost a 40% reduction in their principle if they get good grades, pay on time, get a job in their vocation and a few other things. There are plenty of things to criticize in the church but that isn't one of them. I wish the government would set up a similar system for underprivileged kids.

    Go to LDS business college and you have kids from all walks of life who are part of PEF.

    On a side note, discounted tuition isn't just going to rich kids. It has been a major advantage for my niece who wouldn't be able to afford going to anything better than a community college without it. She is a top notch student and with some scholarships can now get an education from, as much as this pains me to say, a quality school.

    BYU should fix this issue, or give someone a reasonable path of they do leave the faith, I agree. How exactly that is done (I was being only partly facetious about back pay on discounted tuition) I am not sure.


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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    She would be able to go under a need-based system like that used at most private schools (in fact, if BYU had not admitted her, she would have been able to choose from and afford any number of good schools with need-based financial aid).

    I have no idea what the numbers are, but I'm pretty confidant in saying that the vast majority of BYU families could afford and would pay much more.

    Edit: I suspect the real reason BYU keeps tuition so low, knowing that most families could/would pay more, is that it keeps them in the US News ranking game. Without the insanely low tuition, BYU falls out of the first tier, which is unacceptable.
    Not knowing her situation or what was offered I'm not sure how you can make that assessment, but okay. I'm not sure why I am defending BYU here, as I've often made cracks about making sure none of my tithing goes to BYU, so I'll just shut up now.

  5. #35
    7% is what my BIL paid when he emigrated, but maybe they have a sliding scale based on need. That is also the amount quoted by Goatnapper's BIL in his book (by Daymon Smith, written when he worked in the COB , as a study in organizational behavior and anthropology, not as an 'exposé' ). The PEF does a lot of good for a lot of people, but it is also a good investment vehicle. Contributions to the fund only build the principle, and only interest is loaned out. My parents give a lot of money to the fund and a few years ago were told that it can't accept new contributions for an undisclosed reason. I believe it is again growing now.

    Again Sancho nails it. If the price of attendance was in line with similar competition their all-important USAToday Tier 1 ranking which could be devastating.

  6. #36
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    LA, it isn't about causing mischief. That is an egregious assumption on your part. For many people who leave the church it is the single most emotionally painful experience of their lives and one which they would never wish on their worst enemy.
    "Mischief" was the wrong word, I admit. My concept was that many would want to hang around and agitate. That is OK on normal campuses but on a private religious one you don't get to do that. Honor Code, etc., blah blah blah. My view is, if you don't want to play by the rules you agreed to going in, move to a different playground.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #37
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Many of Your Assumptions About Mormons Are Untrue

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8804912


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #38
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Many of Your Assumptions About Mormons Are Untrue

    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8804912


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Bump.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #39
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    For those interested in the "Letter to a CES Director."

    The CES Letter: A Closer Look

    http://debunking-cesletter.com/wp-co...r-10-9-15a.pdf

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #40
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quick Thoughts from Patrick Mason on Studying the Past and Presentism

    http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/201...-mason-on.html

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Quick Thoughts from Patrick Mason on Studying the Past and Presentism

    http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/201...-mason-on.html
    I hate this newspeak like presentism and scientism that religious apologists make up.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  12. #42
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I hate this newspeak like presentism and scientism that religious apologists make up.
    You need to get out of your Seattle bubble more. Here's a piece by the President of the American Historical Association:

    Against Presentism


    And here's a piece from that right-wing rag, The New Republic:

    The Trouble with Scientism

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You need to get out of your Seattle bubble more. Here's a piece by the President of the American Historical Association:

    Against Presentism


    And here's a piece from that right-wing rag, The New Republic:

    The Trouble with Scientism
    Neither of those pieces use those terms the way your religious apologists do. They are always eager to hijack the language of academia for their own bad faith purposes.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  14. #44
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Neither of those pieces use those terms the way your religious apologists do. They are always eager to hijack the language of academia for their own bad faith purposes.
    You don't even know who Patrick Mason is. That much is now clear.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You need to get out of your Seattle bubble more. Here's a piece by the President of the American Historical Association:

    Against Presentism


    And here's a piece from that right-wing rag, The New Republic:

    The Trouble with Scientism
    I've known Patrick (or Pat as our group of friends always called him to his mom's dismay) since 7th grade. His scholastic achievement is actually quite impressive, including a stint as a professor of religion at Notre Dame and a few other places. I was frankly a bit surprised that he ended up at Claremont. We've had a few interesting discussions in the past, but I've always appreciated his approach. I'm concerned that these quotes make him look like an apologist, when really my experience with him would indicate that what he is saying is take a scholarly approach and seek out the reputable sources and put in the time. Looks like SU has already labeled him as such though.

  16. #46
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I've known Patrick (or Pat as our group of friends always called him to his mom's dismay) since 7th grade. His scholastic achievement is actually quite impressive, including a stint as a professor of religion at Notre Dame and a few other places. I was frankly a bit surprised that he ended up at Claremont. We've had a few interesting discussions in the past, but I've always appreciated his approach. I'm concerned that these quotes make him look like an apologist, when really my experience with him would indicate that what he is saying is take a scholarly approach and seek out the reputable sources and put in the time. Looks like SU has already labeled him as such though.
    Well, he does insist on "respectable, evidence-driven, peer-reviewed scholarship." That makes his approach scholarly in my mind. The current debate is over whether "presentism" or "scientism" are "newspeak," made up by apologists, as SU asserts.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Is being an apologist an inherently bad thing? The validity of the argument should matter more than the label.
    I guess I'm viewing the term 'apologist' as someone who will bend to any length to explain or justify a position. Pat is anything but that.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Ok, I'ver never really been sure of the definition. Is it someone who will do anything to justify a position, or is it just someone who defends something unpopular?

    I think the latter is the technical definition, but I believe the term is now popularly used and in particular how SU is using it as a derisive term for someone like I described.

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You don't even know who Patrick Mason is. That much is now clear.
    As of yesterday, when I looked him up on Wikipedia, I knew he was an American historian who is the Howard W. Hunter Chair in Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I guess I'm viewing the term 'apologist' as someone who will bend to any length to explain or justify a position. Pat is anything but that.
    I think this is a little extreme but the term definitely connotes a bias or an agenda. I do think an apologist can believe that his ultimate objective promotes a greater good. See, e.g., my Whittingham posts. They are not always cynical or mercenaries.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  21. #51
    https://www.facebook.com/events/667227996662013/

    So, Claremont obviously accepted a large donation to establish this HWH chair. There probably was a requirement upon which the donation was conditioned that a believing Mormon fill the HWH chair. I'm all for academic freedom so what the heck; so be it. But I wonder how many institutions would have made that bargain. (Undeniably, Claremont Graduate University is a phenomenal institution and in one of my favorite places on earth.)
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I think this is a little extreme but the term definitely connotes a bias or an agenda. I do think an apologist can believe that his ultimate objective promotes a greater good. See, e.g., my Whittingham posts. They are not always cynical or mercenaries.
    Pat and I have had a few talks about being a scholar and a historian regarding his own religious beliefs. I'm comfortable in saying that he likely isn't going to be employed by FAIR any time soon. You'd probably enjoy him SU, although he may run circles around you regarding this subject, no fault in that, it is his livelihood.
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 01-04-2016 at 02:28 PM.

  23. #53
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    As of yesterday, when I looked him up on Wikipedia, I knew he was an American historian who is the Howard W. Hunter Chair in Mormon Studies at Claremont Graduate University in Claremont, California.
    Here's his official Claremont bio:

    http://www.cgu.edu/pages/9241.asp

    I do not think that (1) the terms "presentism" and "scientism" are newspeak or that (2) he is abusing those terms. You seem to have abandoned both positions.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Here's his official Claremont bio:

    http://www.cgu.edu/pages/9241.asp

    I do not think that (1) the terms "presentism" and "scientism" are newspeak or that (2) he is abusing those terms. You seem to have abandoned both positions.
    Why doesn't it say anywhere where he went to college? My guess is he went to BYU and he's ashamed of it.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  25. #55
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Why doesn't it say anywhere where he went to college? My guess is he went to BYU and he's ashamed of it.
    Well, who can fault him for that?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Why doesn't it say anywhere where he went to college? My guess is he went to BYU and he's ashamed of it.
    He did and I'm ashamed of it. He was on the Benson scholarship.


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  27. #57
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting interview with Patrick Mason about his new book.

    http://bycommonconsent.com/2016/01/0...patrick-mason/


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #58
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    On Not Being an Ex-Mormon

    I recently had the opportunity to see Jeremy Runnells talk at a café off Main and Broadway in downtown SLC. He was there to talk about his pending church disciplinary court (if you don’t know what I’m talking about, go here), and though I’m glad I went, I have to admit it was a pretty awkward experience for me. From what I could tell, the crowd was overwhelmingly ex-Mormon — which is pretty understandable, given the circumstances — and I am still an active believing member. I don’t think I had ever fully appreciated the vibrancy of the existing ex-Mormon subculture until that event. The speakers (which included John Dehlin of Mormon Stories fame) seemed tapped into a world full of its own ideological consistency. There was a rhythm to the communication. A vocabulary so insular, I may finally know how my non-member friends felt attending all those YA dances I dragged them to. It was a world that I’m simply not a part of. . . .

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #59
    Had an interesting lunch with my 18 y/o daughter recently. She finally said out loud what I suspected for awhile......she's a non-believer. She teaches primary and goes to church with us every week, and is so sweet to us. Has never given us a moment of trouble. It must've been so hard for her to keep it inside, and then also finally tell me. Makes me feel sad that she felt like she needed to carry that burden herself.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Had an interesting lunch with my 18 y/o daughter recently. She finally said out loud what I suspected for awhile......she's a non-believer. She teaches primary and goes to church with us every week, and is so sweet to us. Has never given us a moment of trouble. It must've been so hard for her to keep it inside, and then also finally tell me. Makes me feel sad that she felt like she needed to carry that burden herself.
    I'm not LDS. My wife's father is, and still active, it's been hard for her as someone who hasn't had any interest in being LDS to officially cut ties. Her dad is very supportive, but knowing that the LDS church was important to him has made it more difficult for her.


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