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Thread: The Thread about LDS with doubts

  1. #61
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Had an interesting lunch with my 18 y/o daughter recently. She finally said out loud what I suspected for awhile......she's a non-believer. She teaches primary and goes to church with us every week, and is so sweet to us. Has never given us a moment of trouble. It must've been so hard for her to keep it inside, and then also finally tell me. Makes me feel sad that she felt like she needed to carry that burden herself.
    Freedom of conscience is supreme, to my mind at least. Many people of faith struggle with that where their children are concerned. Parents live their lives according to their beliefs and teach their children, but in the end the kids get to decide. Your daughter is fortunate to have you as her dad.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #62
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    At about 21:30 here Elder Ballard makes some important remarks.

    https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch...16/02?lang=eng

    Summary from Dan Peterson:

    He said, flatly, that earlier Church Education System curriculum was not adequate to today’s challenges from critical materials on the Internet, etc., and that it left our young people unprepared. They are no longer “sheltered.”

    He repeatedly spoke about “inoculating” students against difficulties and faith crises by candidly approaching such specific, controversial issues as polygamy and past statements and practices regarding race.
    He said that we can no longer dismiss issues by telling students “don’t worry about it,” or avoid grappling with challenges by merely bearing testimony.
    He exhorted teachers to know the Church’s new “Gospel Topics” essays “like the back of your hand.”
    He acknowledged his own reliance upon experts when his personal knowledge was inadequate to a topic, and he encouraged teachers to make use of solid scholarship in their teaching, and to be ready for honest, faithful discussions on difficult topics.
    Looks to me like part of a welcome sea change.




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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #63
    There are some things that are fun for you, that just aren't fun (or uplifting/fulfilling) for others. They just aren't. It's just life.

  4. #64
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    There are some things that are fun for you, that just aren't fun (or uplifting/fulfilling) for others. They just aren't. It's just life.
    sticking-out-tongue-241x300.jpg

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post


    Sometimes (what feels like) darkness can show you the light.

  6. #66
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Mormon seminary teacher responds to blogger’s 6 ideas for helping teens - See more at:

    http://janariess.religionnews.com/20....xHEetxPO.dpuf

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Mormon seminary teacher responds to blogger’s 6 ideas for helping teens - See more at:

    http://janariess.religionnews.com/20....xHEetxPO.dpuf
    I know Doug and his lovely wife very well as may several others on here

  8. #68
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Mormon church’s PR boss discusses LDS history & LGBT, race, women’s issues


    Interesting summary. Beginning paragraphs:

    Since Mormonism's founding nearly two centuries ago, the faith's vocabulary and perspectives on women, gays, immigration and history have evolved — sometimes softened, sometimes enlarged — but its eternal doctrines have not.

    That's the view of Michael Otterson, head of public affairs for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who explored such shifting awareness and reasons for it in a 50-minute address Tuesday at a Utah Valley University symposium in Orem.

    For example, he said, some members use the word "betrayal" to describe finding out about controversial aspects of the faith's founding in upstate New York in 1830....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Wasn't Kate Kelly supposed to be on some kind of humanitarian lawyer mission in Africa?
    Her (now ex-) husband is doing field research for his PhD over there. She accompanied him.

  10. #70
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Wasn't Kate Kelly supposed to be on some kind of humanitarian lawyer mission in Africa?
    I don't know. She described herself as an international human rights lawyer. <shrug>


    "It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #71
    Handsome Boy Graduate mpfunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't know. She described herself as an international human rights lawyer. <shrug>


    "It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
    She is now back in Utah working for Planned Parenthood.

    Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk
    So I said to David Eckstein, "You promised me, Eckstein, that if I followed you, you would walk with me always. But I noticed that during the most trying periods of my life, there have only been one set of prints in the sand. Why, when I have needed you most, have you not been there for me?" David Eckstein replied, "Because my little legs had gotten tired, and you were carrying me." And I looked down and saw that I was still carrying David Eckstein.
    --fjm.com

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't know. She described herself as an international human rights lawyer. <shrug>


    "It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
    What is an international human rights lawyer?

  13. #73
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    What is an international human rights lawyer?
    Beats me. If what she says here is true, her self-description as such a lawyer seems legit:

    http://www.katekellyesq.com/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #74
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "The Courage of Our Convictions: Embracing Mormonism in a Secular Age"

    Interesting talk by Patrick Mason:

    http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectiv...ge-convictions

    Excerpt:

    "Since Planted was published, I’ve received lots of e-mails from people who are reconsidering, renegotiating, or otherwise transitioning in their faith or membership in the church, as well as from concerned family members of those who are struggling.

    "By show of hands, how many of you personally know someone—a friend, a family member, someone in your ward—who has recently not just slipped into inactivity, but proactively left the church over historical, doctrinal, or contemporary issues?

    "It’s even more clear to me now than when I wrote the book that there is a lot of confusion out there, and a lot of very real pain, felt by sincere people who are trying to figure it all out. Many of the people I’ve heard from haven’t yet left, and are holding on with their fingertips, trying to find a way to stay in the church with intellectual, spiritual, and emotional integrity. But many others have already left, and no amount of reclamation work is going to bring them back, because their feelings are so deep, and often their paradigms have shifted so profoundly...."

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #75
    I read a stat the other day (dont remember where, but it sounded authoritative), that 64% of persons born LDS are practicing adults. that is down from about 75% a generation or so ago, and is the primary reason the mission age was lowered.
    Last edited by concerned; 08-17-2016 at 09:46 AM.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    "The Courage of Our Convictions: Embracing Mormonism in a Secular Age"

    Interesting talk by Patrick Mason:

    http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectiv...ge-convictions

    Excerpt:

    "Since Planted was published, I’ve received lots of e-mails from people who are reconsidering, renegotiating, or otherwise transitioning in their faith or membership in the church, as well as from concerned family members of those who are struggling.

    "By show of hands, how many of you personally know someone—a friend, a family member, someone in your ward—who has recently not just slipped into inactivity, but proactively left the church over historical, doctrinal, or contemporary issues?

    "It’s even more clear to me now than when I wrote the book that there is a lot of confusion out there, and a lot of very real pain, felt by sincere people who are trying to figure it all out. Many of the people I’ve heard from haven’t yet left, and are holding on with their fingertips, trying to find a way to stay in the church with intellectual, spiritual, and emotional integrity. But many others have already left, and no amount of reclamation work is going to bring them back, because their feelings are so deep, and often their paradigms have shifted so profoundly...."

    One need only look around this town lately. The demographics have severely shifted over the past ten years. Yet statistics show there is not a huge influx of out of towners moving in (except those who go to BYU and folks like LA Ute).

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    One need only look around this town lately. The demographics have severely shifted over the past ten years. Yet statistics show there is not a huge influx of out of towners moving in (except those who go to BYU and folks like LA Ute).
    SLC sure has changed. It was pretty sad when they tore down the chapel I grew up in. It's not all people leaving the church, though. When I think of the people my age I used to go to church with, almost all of them live out of state now. There are relatively few professions now that don't end up shuffling you around the country. Those of my old friends who do still live in Utah can't afford to live in the parts of SLC they would want to live in.

  18. #78
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    One need only look around this town lately. The demographics have severely shifted over the past ten years. Yet statistics show there is not a huge influx of out of towners moving in (except those who go to BYU and folks like LA Ute).
    I left in 1982. Spending a lot of time there now, I can say it sure ain't my dad's SLC anymore!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I left in 1982. Spending a lot of time there now, I can say it sure ain't my dad's SLC anymore!


    As Sancho said, I think a lot of it has to do with real estate. In our neighborhoods (basically East and Highland High areas, east of 13th east), the house sizes and prices don't allow for larger families so much. Our immediate neighborhood (Uintah elementary) is well less than half LDS, exactly the opposite of my childhood too. Often the wards combine youth activities for the stake because there are not enough in a single ward. Wards have been merged, with building overcapacity that are now used as regional singles wards.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    As Sancho said, I think a lot of it has to do with real estate. In our neighborhoods (basically East and Highland High areas, east of 13th east), the house sizes and prices don't allow for larger families so much. Our immediate neighborhood (Uintah elementary) is well less than half LDS, exactly the opposite of my childhood too. Often the wards combine youth activities for the stake because there are not enough in a single ward. Wards have been merged, with building overcapacity that are now used as regional singles wards.
    I go out quite a but for dinner with my wife. Last night we went out. It's actually strange how full the restaurants are on a Tuesday night in Salt Lake City. 10 or 20 years ago, there weren't a lot of restaurants ( way less than half) and they were half-empty except on weekends. And we NEVER deal with crying babies or a bunch of children at any restaurant (although we are starting to have to deal with the dogs--don't get me started on dog lovers).

    But I have several friends from high school who don't live far from me. I live in one of the few remaining neighborhoods in Salt Lake that is majority Mormon. My neighbor joked that they should call our neighborhood the Garment District.
    Last edited by Two Utes; 08-17-2016 at 10:24 AM.

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    I go out quite a but for dinner with my wife. Last night we went out. It's actually strange how full the restaurants are on a Tuesday night in Salt Lake City. 10 or 20 years ago, there weren't a lot of restaurants ( way less than half) and they were half-empty except on weekends. And we NEVER deal with crying babies or a bunch of children at any restaurant (although we are starting to have to deal with the dogs--don't get me started on dog lovers).
    Are there any good restaurants in SLC yet?
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

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    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

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  22. #82
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    As Sancho said, I think a lot of it has to do with real estate. In our neighborhoods (basically East and Highland High areas, east of 13th east), the house sizes and prices don't allow for larger families so much. Our immediate neighborhood (Uintah elementary) is well less than half LDS, exactly the opposite of my childhood too. Often the wards combine youth activities for the stake because there are not enough in a single ward. Wards have been merged, with building overcapacity that are now used as regional singles wards.
    The ward we attend when we are in town is like that - on the upper east end of the Avenues. They combine Primary and youth meetings and activities with another ward. When they do stake-level youth activities they combine with another stake. It's just the reality now.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Are there any good restaurants in SLC yet?
    Ok, restaurant snob. Yes there are. But, there isn't a restaurant in the Utah or Washington that is good enough to wait more than 40 minutes for a seat.

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    As Sancho said, I think a lot of it has to do with real estate. In our neighborhoods (basically East and Highland High areas, east of 13th east), the house sizes and prices don't allow for larger families so much.
    It's also tough for one-income families.

    My parents block is down to two LDS families. The rest are almost all lawyer/doctor power couples who tore down existing homes to build ugly mcmansions. It's a great block for my aging parents. Doctors and surgeons are always easy to find.

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    The ward we attend when we are in town is like that - on the upper east end of the Avenues.
    My childhood chapel was on 9th avenue and K street. I remember an old Dutch sister taking me by the hand one day and leading me to a particular brick to point out that she laid that brick herself. Those avenues wards were full of elderly couples. When they died in the 90s, the wards and stakes started consolidating like crazy.

    The avenues were a great place to grow up.

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Two Utes View Post
    I go out quite a but for dinner with my wife. Last night we went out. It's actually strange how full the restaurants are on a Tuesday night in Salt Lake City. 10 or 20 years ago, there weren't a lot of restaurants ( way less than half) and they were half-empty except on weekends. And we NEVER deal with crying babies or a bunch of children at any restaurant (although we are starting to have to deal with the dogs--don't get me started on dog lovers).

    But I have several friends from high school who don't live far from me. I live in one of the few remaining neighborhoods in Salt Lake that is majority Mormon. My neighbor joked that they should call our neighborhood the Garment District.
    It's an American phenomenon. Americans are eating out more. As someone who doesn't live in the states and has spent a lot of time in Europe over the past several years, eating out in America is cheap, and the variety of choice is incredible from fast-food, greasy spoon options, to lunch and dinner chains, to offerings for your favourite gourmet.

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/...rst-time-ever/
    http://mentalfloss.com/article/84712...-food-discount
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe.../#a23f44067776
    Last edited by tooblue; 08-17-2016 at 11:31 AM.

  27. #87
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Sometimes when I am in certain parts of Salt Lake I feel like I am in Boulder or Berkeley. Nothing wrong with that -- I like it. But it is different from what I knew as a native Salt Laker.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I left in 1982. Spending a lot of time there now, I can say it sure ain't my dad's SLC anymore!

    We moved back a couple of weeks ago after almost 25 years away. Agree that things are different. Other than the rude drivers, I think I prefer it now....just a lot more to do, and a lot more diversity. Having said that, I haven't yet experienced the rampant anti-LDS fan base that Utah has become.....so I'm told.....guess I'll find out for myself this season.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

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  29. #89
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    We moved back a couple of weeks ago after almost 25 years away. Agree that things are different. Other than the rude drivers, I think I prefer it now....just a lot more to do, and a lot more diversity. Having said that, I haven't yet experienced the rampant anti-LDS fan base that Utah has become.....so I'm told.....guess I'll find out for myself this season.
    I like SLC a lot now and enjoy being there. We'll probably retire there someday.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    We moved back a couple of weeks ago after almost 25 years away. Agree that things are different. Other than the rude drivers, I think I prefer it now....just a lot more to do, and a lot more diversity. Having said that, I haven't yet experienced the rampant anti-LDS fan base that Utah has become.....so I'm told.....guess I'll find out for myself this season.
    Oh brother. Maybe the LD S church should reflect about why.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

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