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Thread: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Media (fka Mormonism)

  1. #91
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    We are going to just have to agree to disagree.
    Both of you need to think outside the box. Just imagine the great discussion you could have in high priest group meeting about this.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #92
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46222189&ni...-church-policy

    found this interesting

    difficult challenge

  3. #93
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46222189&ni...-church-policy

    found this interesting

    difficult challenge
    20 Holocaust victims in 5 years is a great record. I wonder what the delta on that number is? (How many total vicarious baptisms in those 5 years?)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #94
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    https://www.ksl.com/article/46501361...or-code-office

    The police officer who violated individuals rights and anyone who signed off on this from BYU's Honor code side need to face church discipline. I'd much rather see excommunications for this type of behavior than I would people openly questioning/opposing doctrine.

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    https://www.ksl.com/article/46501361...or-code-office

    The police officer who violated individuals rights and anyone who signed off on this from BYU's Honor code side need to face church discipline. I'd much rather see excommunications for this type of behavior than I would people openly questioning/opposing doctrine.
    I agree. This need to try and ruin some kid’s college career seems like a really grotesque motivation.


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  6. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    I agree. This need to try and ruin some kid’s college career seems like a really grotesque motivation.


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    The "honor code" office needs to consist of one person who reports any related issue to a students bishop and it ends there, instead of the gestapo-like techniques they currently employ.

    It boils down to this and this is all that SHOULD matter to them: do they have an ecclesiastical endorsement or not?

    There is no honor code office for church employees, members or anything else and according to our own doctrine it is the bishop who is called as a common judge and entitled to discernment on this matter.

    I had a buddy who now has a very public and distinguished career that involves the church who had an "honor code violation" that had those goons trying to expel him. He made a youthful mistake (actually dragged an old vacuum behind his car at high speeds as a prank in a dorm parking lot when he was 18) but those people wanted to pull the rug out from underneath him completely. I doubt he'd be doing what he does today had that been allowed to happen.

    I wouldn't be surprised if all of this bad press leads to some sweeping changes there and a severe reduction in the role of the HC office.


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  7. #97
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The "honor code" office needs to consist of one person who reports any related issue to a students bishop and it ends there, instead of the gestapo-like techniques they currently employ.

    It boils down to this and this is all that SHOULD matter to them: do they have an ecclesiastical endorsement or not?

    There is no honor code office for church employees, members or anything else and according to our own doctrine it is the bishop who is called as a common judge and entitled to discernment on this matter.

    I had a buddy who now has a very public and distinguished career that involves the church who had an "honor code violation" that had those goons trying to expel him. He made a youthful mistake (actually dragged an old vacuum behind his car at high speeds as a prank in a dorm parking lot when he was 18) but those people wanted to pull the rug out from underneath him completely. I doubt he'd be doing what he does today had that been allowed to happen.

    I wouldn't be surprised if all of this bad press leads to some sweeping changes there and a severe reduction in the role of the HC office.
    "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion...."

    Sorry, couldn't resist!

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #98
    Don't know what to think about the wierd subculture the church has carved out at BYU. The gap between normal and BYU seems to be ever widening.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  9. #99
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Don't know what to think about the wierd subculture the church has carved out at BYU. The gap between normal and BYU seems to be ever widening.
    We don’t do well when there are too many of us concentrated in one place.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #100
    Even though this subject title hurts my spirit, I guess this is the best place for this. The aftermath of President Nelson’s commitment to the official name of the church continues to reverberate. This morning they announced that LDS.org will officially be ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Not only is that super fun to type, but if you accidentally Google it or put it in proper grammatical context, then you discover that TheChurchofJesusChrist.org takes you to a completely separate location. And eventually, the Terrestrial kingdom.






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  11. #101
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Even though this subject title hurts my spirit, I guess this is the best place for this. The aftermath of President Nelson’s commitment to the official name of the church continues to reverberate. This morning they announced that LDS.org will officially be ChurchofJesusChrist.org. Not only is that super fun to type, but if you accidentally Google it or put it in proper grammatical context, then you discover that TheChurchofJesusChrist.org takes you to a completely separate location. And eventually, the Terrestrial kingdom.






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    Hmmm. Makes me think someone didn't do their homework. Rare for the Church in these situations.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #102
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Media (fka Mormonism)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Even though this subject title hurts my spirit....
    I just changed it, with an explanatory note to help avoid confusion among the uninformed. I hope that helps.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 03-05-2019 at 01:00 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  13. #103

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    What a mess of an article; rambling and incoherent in its focus. It reads more like a hit piece than an in-depth expose. Why? Outside of the fact children were abused and there is a help line that goes directly to law offices who represent the church, any of the other supposed facts presented are supposition. Supposition representative of one specific agenda driven perspective.

    Also, why release it on a Friday—to hide the fact that it is so poorly written and that the conclusion drawn from the title, but not supported by facts is at best inaccurate?

    Here's the thing about the help line: Bishops are under legal obligation to report abuse without equivocation. That's not negotiable. That's why when they call the help line they speak to a lawyer, who informs them that they are personally, legally liable of consequences if they choose not to report the abuse to authorities. The hotline doesn't protect the church. It is designed to inform the Bishops who in some circumstances do not head the legal advice given to them.

    And before anyone attempts to castigate me and my perspective on this subject, I am both a victim of childhood sexual abuse and I have served as a Bishop. I understand the severity of such situations very well.
    Last edited by tooblue; 05-03-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    What a mess of an article; rambling and incoherent in its focus. It reads more like a hit piece than an in-depth expose. Why? Outside of the fact children were abused and there is a help line that goes directly to law offices who represent the church, any of the other supposed facts presented are supposition. Supposition representative of one specific agenda driven perspective.

    Also, why release it on a Friday—to hide the fact that it is so poorly written and that the conclusion drawn from the title, but not supported by facts is at best inaccurate?

    Here's the thing about the help line: Bishops are under legal obligation to report abuse without equivocation. That's not negotiable. That's why when they call the help line they speak to a lawyer, who informs them that they are personally, legally liable of consequences if they choose not to report the abuse to authorities. The hotline doesn't protect the church. It is designed to inform the Bishops who in some circumstances do not head the legal advice given to them.

    And before anyone attempts to castigate me and my perspective on this subject, I am both a victim of childhood sexual abuse and I have served as a Bishop. I understand the severity of such situations very well.
    I don’t have any issues with the helpline. I am just glad that piece of #!*%? is rotting in jail for the next 35 years.

  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    What a mess of an article; rambling and incoherent in its focus. It reads more like a hit piece than an in-depth expose. Why? Outside of the fact children were abused and there is a help line that goes directly to law offices who represent the church, any of the other supposed facts presented are supposition. Supposition representative of one specific agenda driven perspective.

    Also, why release it on a Friday—to hide the fact that it is so poorly written and that the conclusion drawn from the title, but not supported by facts is at best inaccurate?

    Here's the thing about the help line: Bishops are under legal obligation to report abuse without equivocation. That's not negotiable. That's why when they call the help line they speak to a lawyer, who informs them that they are personally, legally liable of consequences if they choose not to report the abuse to authorities. The hotline doesn't protect the church. It is designed to inform the Bishops who in some circumstances do not head the legal advice given to them.

    And before anyone attempts to castigate me and my perspective on this subject, I am both a victim of childhood sexual abuse and I have served as a Bishop. I understand the severity of such situations very well.

    The Utah bar should investigate the Kirton lawyers claim about the sexual abuse related calls being forwarded to Kirton to see if any legal and ethical rules were violated. If the Bishop revealed confidential communications, which I imagine occurs, Kirton should possibly be precluded from advising or representing the Church in any legal proceedings that result. In my lawyer mind the complications of this process are troubling.

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    The Utah bar should investigate the Kirton lawyers claim about the sexual abuse related calls being forwarded to Kirton to see if any legal and ethical rules were violated. If the Bishop revealed confidential communications, which I imagine occurs, Kirton should possibly be precluded from advising or representing the Church in any legal proceedings that result. In my lawyer mind the complications of this process are troubling.
    A Bishop is not only the spiritual leader representative of a geographic area called a Ward, but he is also, legally speaking, the representative of the church in that area. They don't only lay hands upon the individuals head, set him apart and pronounce a blessing, and then it is over. Once that part of the 'calling' is done and the handshakes and hugs are over, the Bishop sits down and signs a bunch of legal documents.

    I have a close friend who was recently called as Bishop. A short while later I asked him jokingly: "how did you like the part where you signed your life away, in blood."

    By law, especially where I live, individuals in a position such as the Bishop of a Ward can be criminally charged by authorities if they do not report abuse when told to them by a congregant. That's where the article gets this whole situation wrong. Privacy is paramount. The type of transparency the article is calling for could violate attorney client privilege, if the conversation between the Bishop and lawyer is privileged. It also could obliterate many other individuals privacy. So who better to have the conversation with than with a lawyer?

  18. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    A Bishop is not only the spiritual leader representative of a geographic area called a Ward, but he is also, legally speaking, the representative of the church in that area. They don't only lay hands upon the individuals head, set him apart and pronounce a blessing, and then it is over. Once that part of the 'calling' is done and the handshakes and hugs are over, the Bishop sits down and signs a bunch of legal documents.

    I have a close friend who was recently called as Bishop. A short while later I asked him jokingly: "how did you like the part where you signed your life away, in blood."

    By law, especially where I live, individuals in a position such as the Bishop of a Ward can be criminally charged by authorities if they do not report abuse when told to them by a congregant. That's where the article gets this whole situation wrong. Privacy is paramount. The type of transparency the article is calling for could violate attorney client privilege, if the conversation between the Bishop and lawyer is privileged. It also could obliterate many other individuals privacy. So who better to have the conversation with than with a lawyer?
    No, actually, bishops do not sign a bunch of legal documents - unless you count a signature card with the bank so they can sign checks.

    The bishop in this story made a critical mistake though that was against church policy. Any accusation of abuse need to be reported through the hotline and bishops need to comply with local laws, that means you have to also report it to authorities. As mentioned, the hotline serves for that purpose. For the protection of the victim, the bishop and the church they don't want bishops doing their own thing and making things worse (like this bishop did).

    Yes you do speak to attorneys at Kirton McConkie who basically walk you through all that you must do and must report. The first question is if you assured the victim or victims are safe and the second is have you reported it to proper authorities. Under no circumstances do they discourage you from reporting abuse to authorities. You also speak to clinical specialists who help walk you through how to help the victim and provide resources for the protection and recovery.

    They of course are then interested in the protection of the bishop and the church, but that protection is aligned with the law.

    From the handbook:

    "In the United States and Canada, the Church has established a confidential abuse help line to assist stake presidents and bishops (hotline number). These leaders should promptly call the help line about every situation in which a person may have been abused—or is at risk of being abused. Stake presidents and bishops should also call the help line if they become aware of the viewing, purchasing, or distributing of child pornography.

    This help line is available for bishops and stake presidents to call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, when addressing situations involving any type of abuse.

    When stake presidents or bishops call the help line, legal and clinical professionals will answer their questions and provide instructions about how to assist victims, comply with local laws and requirements for reporting abuse, and protect against further abuse."

    (Emphasis theirs)
    Last edited by Rocker Ute; 05-03-2019 at 09:28 PM.

  19. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    No, actually, bishops do not sign a bunch of legal documents - unless you count a signature card with the bank so they can sign checks.

    The bishop in this story made a critical mistake though that was against church policy. Any accusation of abuse need to be reported through the hotline and bishops need to comply with local laws, that means you have to also report it to authorities. As mentioned, the hotline serves for that purpose. For the protection of the victim, the bishop and the church they don't want bishops doing their own thing and making things worse (like this bishop did).

    Yes you do speak to attorneys at Kirton McConkie who basically walk you through all that you must do and must report. The first question is if you assured the victim or victims are safe and the second is have you reported it to proper authorities. Under no circumstances do they discourage you from reporting abuse to authorities. You also speak to clinical specialists who help walk you through how to help the victim and provide resources for the protection and recovery.

    They of course are then interested in the protection of the bishop and the church, but that protection is aligned with the law.

    From the handbook:

    "In the United States and Canada, the Church has established a confidential abuse help line to assist stake presidents and bishops (hotline number). These leaders should promptly call the help line about every situation in which a person may have been abused—or is at risk of being abused. Stake presidents and bishops should also call the help line if they become aware of the viewing, purchasing, or distributing of child pornography.

    This help line is available for bishops and stake presidents to call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, when addressing situations involving any type of abuse.

    When stake presidents or bishops call the help line, legal and clinical professionals will answer their questions and provide instructions about how to assist victims, comply with local laws and requirements for reporting abuse, and protect against further abuse."

    (Emphasis theres)
    That's only one of the documents I signed. You also sign it when you are called as a counsellor, or as a clerk. I signed a few other documents as well that I never signed as a counsellor or clerk. That's the plain and simple truth.

  20. #110
    In other news, all missionaries for the Church are now pre-approved for the BYU-Pathways program (their online college). I mentioned on this board a while back that I thought the future of church education was through this program, and I think that is another indicator.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    In other news, all missionaries for the Church are now pre-approved for the BYU-Pathways program (their online college). I mentioned on this board a while back that I thought the future of church education was through this program, and I think that is another indicator.
    But they are still too ashamed of it to allow graduates to call themselves BYU graduations. They are still merely the inferior "BYU Idaho" graduates.

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The bishop in this story made a critical mistake though that was against church policy.
    It's not clear to me if the following is a doctrinal mistake of the bishop or a mistake from the reporter, but this seems like another critical mistake of the bishop.

    Mormons believe that bishops have a spiritual gift known as the power of discernment that allows them to divine if someone is telling the truth.

  23. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    In other news, all missionaries for the Church are now pre-approved for the BYU-Pathways program (their online college). I mentioned on this board a while back that I thought the future of church education was through this program, and I think that is another indicator.
    My son is currently serving. The rumour according to him is that during down times missionaries will be encouraged to continue with their school work, which may include being enrolled in Pathways courses.

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    That's only one of the documents I signed. You also sign it when you are called as a counsellor, or as a clerk. I signed a few other documents as well that I never signed as a counsellor or clerk. That's the plain and simple truth.
    No that is not the plain and simple truth. You must have had a rogue stake president or something. Or maybe things are different in Canadia. What other specific legal documents did you sign?

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    It's not clear to me if the following is a doctrinal mistake of the bishop or a mistake from the reporter, but this seems like another critical mistake of the bishop.
    Interestingly the FBI official had it right:

    "You can pray for guidance about how to handle sexual abuse,” said Huizar. “But you can pray and also report it to public authorities.”

    Which is what you should do.

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    No that is not the plain and simple truth. You must have had a rogue stake president or something. Or maybe things are different in Canadia. What other specific legal documents did you sign?
    I was there. I know what I read through and what I signed. It was more than the card for the bank authorizing my signature. I had already done that serving as both a counsellor and clerk. Perhaps it is peculiar to my area, but there are other considerations to account for ... the authority to perform legal marriages; who can legally speak for the church with regards to church owned properties; the distribution of welfare in an area etc.

    My point is, a Bishop isn't exclusively the spiritual leader of a Ward.

  27. #117

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    I was there. I know what I read through and what I signed. It was more than the card for the bank authorizing my signature. I had already done that serving as both a counsellor and clerk. Perhaps it is peculiar to my area, but there are other considerations to account for ... the authority to perform legal marriages; who can legally speak for the church with regards to church owned properties. The distribution of welfare in an area etc.

    My point is, a Bishop isn't exclusively the spiritual leader of a Ward.
    I've been there too. I didn't sign anything more than a signature card. You do get a certificate from church HQ that states you are a bishop that you could use to whatever official was requiring it (like to visit someone in jail or to perform a marriage - although in Utah that isn't required to produce that document). But I signed no legal documents, and nothing as dramatic as signing my life away as you originally described.

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Bishop fight!
    I wouldn't fight tooblue or any man who drinks milk from a bag. Those type of guys are too unpredictable.

    And I'm disagreeing with all the love in my heart.

  30. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I've been there too. I didn't sign anything more than a signature card. You do get a certificate from church HQ that states you are a bishop that you could use to whatever official was requiring it (like to visit someone in jail or to perform a marriage - although in Utah that isn't required to produce that document). But I signed no legal documents, and nothing as dramatic as signing my life away as you originally described.
    I did state that I was joking about signing my life away, in blood ;-) At the time I also joked: "is this the point where I stand up and say I'm not ready for this, let me out of here." That went over about as well as one would imagine.

    Setting all that aside, there are levels of complexity to these issues that go beyond: "Religions are evil! There must be transparency! The Mormon church hides abuse!"

    The system isn't perfect, but in my experience it works well. Some individuals do not head the counsel given to them and that's tragic.

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