I am a non member and my wife is a member. Our children are raised Mormon. I am deeply concerned about our adolescent being asked any questions regarding her morality that involve disclosing personal information of any form.
How do members here suggest I deal with this?
It has been a long time but I don't ever recall being asked about my morality ever beyond the question in the temple recommend interview.
My suggestion is if you are concerned about it perhaps you talk to her Bishop about it and express your feelings. My guess is he will respect your requests.
I second this advice, and plan on doing it myself when my kids get old enough.Originally Posted by Rocker Ute
I think it's important for parents not to simply hand off their kids to the bishopric or any other church leader (although a kid with abusive parents may be better off in such a situation). Be a partner with the bishop. If he is doing his job, he loves your kids, thinks about their well-being often, and is constantly overseeing plans to help them. It saddens me that any parent may do anything that would cause their kids to feel fear or suspicion or distrust towards their bishop. There may well come times when for whatever reason your children need to talk to someone who cares about them and has your values, and they won't talk to you for whatever reason. In those cases the bishop can be an awfully good friend and sometimes a life-saver. Don't let the extreme outliers cause you to deprive your kids of that friend.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I don't have a problem with adults taking interest in kids as long as its not of a sexual nature. I have a great neighborhood. A ton of fathers have spent their times coaching and teaching soccer, baseball, scouts, football whatever. They've been very good role models for both my sons and daughters and I am greatful to them as it actually really does take a village to raise kids. But none of those adults have asked my kids personal sexual questions, nor should they.
LA, I am not going to let you divert the topic to something more palateable. You know as well as anybody that part of every Mormon interview with teens involves asking questions about "morality". It's nonsense and it needs to stop. If the teenager wants to inquire that may be a different issue. But probing the kid about it is wrong.
If the premise that an ecclesiastical leader has responsibility to judge worthiness is acceptable and is also in part responsible for the spiritual well-being of an individual, then such a question is not universally wrong. There is nothing nonsensical about it. Especially considering the fact that every parent has the opportunity to first counsel with the ecclesiastical leader and discuss the merits of such questions in the first place.
I have a problem with this when the extent of the training the 'ecclesiastical leader' gets amounts to a few hours of training meetings, a "Do what you feel is right", and a "here, read this handbook - and call the legal dept if you get in over your head". If the leader has an actual degree and is licensed as a psychologist, social worker, or family therapist then I would put more trust in their training.
LA, my experience was over 30 years ago and the church (and the world) is highly different now. Also, the words you seek to describe how you feel are "I would break his f@#king kneecaps", just as I said.
This is a fine line to walk. There is a need to counsel people who need counseling. But prying too deeply into highly personal and highly emotional subjects can at times lead to damaging outcomes regardless of the intentions of the leader.
As for my family, I proactively remove the potential for emotional abuse (even innocent abuse) by refusing to allow the church to control my childrens' sexuality through their chief weapon, which is shame.
Well, this is what bishops are instructed to do in youth interviews:
If you're worried about how the bishop will handle the interviews or what the impact will be on your child, just talk to the guy about your concerns.Another matter for discussion is the importance of obeying the commandments, particularly:
- Praying regularly in private and with the family, studying the scriptures, honoring parents, and paying a full tithing.
- Being modest in dress and action, refraining from any kind of sexual activity, and refraining from viewing, reading, or listening to pornographic material.
- Obeying the Word of Wisdom and refraining from using illegal drugs and misusing other substances.
- Refraining from using the name of the Lord in vain and from using vulgar expressions and other degrading language.
- Attending priesthood and sacrament meetings, participating in other Church meetings and activities, and fulfilling assignments given by quorum leaders or Young Women class presidency members….
When discussing moral cleanliness, the bishop adapts the discussion to the understanding of the youth. He also ensures that the discussion does not encourage curiosity or experimentation.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
So are you saying that no questions about morality should be asked to a teenager, or that no probing questions should be asked? Would "do you keep the law of chastity?", be an ok question? And at what age should it be asked?
If you don't want the question asked at all, how would you determine the "worthiness" (i hate that word) of teenagers to advance in the priesthood or participate in certain church activities (i.e. baptisms for the dead)?
*Two utes, I am not trying to pile on, i am just honestly curious.
Last edited by Sullyute; 03-12-2014 at 01:20 PM.
We've always gone to the bishop and talked over with him how he intends to approach such matters. All of them (3 kids' worth of bishops) have welcomed the discussion and have been willing to work with us. I suggest that you consider that approach. Any bishop worth his salt wants to work with the parents in these situations. Keep in mind that older teens often will be willing to talk to their bishop about personal matters that they are too embarrassed to discuss with their parents, and in those cases the bishop is a good ally for parents to have. He can't disclose confidences but he can help your kid in cases when you can't because your kid has chosen not to involve you. Studies have shown that for active kids, as they approach adulthood their church leaders (Young Men, Young Women, bishops) have more influence over their religiously-related decisions than their parents. So you want those guys attuned to your wishes. All of this, of course, depends on how much trust and confidence you have in your bishop. With us, that has varied from bishop to bishop.
Last edited by LA Ute; 03-10-2014 at 06:58 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I've been fortunate in that I don't recall ever having a bishop that wasn't a great guy and wouldn't welcome this kind of input from a parent. Just tell him what your wishes are, and I'd bet there's a 99% chance he'll strictly comply with your request....I don't imagine the typical bishop wants to take on more problems than he already has.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Sorry, Viking, you are toast. All the advice on this page is great - in the United States. In Brazil, you probably have a former "crente" as your bispo, who asks about Coke in the temple recommend interview and frowns on dancing. I wish you luck.
Talk to him before your child goes in for an interview. Sit in the interview with the child, or tell your child that you will be immediately outside the door and that she is to stand up and walk out if she feels uncomfortable about the line of questioning.
The potential for abuse is just too great. The specific wording of the question they are supposed to ask is something like 'Do you live the law of chastity?'. But many kids, especially the very young youths, don't understand the word (and have no idea what it entails), and this is where some leaders can go off the reservation with their line of questioning. Pastors from nearly any other church would be horrified at the thought of asking such highly innapropriate questions of a teenager behind closed doors. Doubly so for a teenager of the opposite sex.
My wife and I have decided that the LDS church will have absolutely zero power over our childrens' sexuality and have told the Bishop to avoid even asking the question. He is supportive of that.
I'm not sure if you guys belong to the same church that I belong to. Bishops and Counselors to Bishops routinely conduct temple recommend interviews for teenagers going through the Temple for the first time (18 and 19 year olds) as well as for 12+ going to the Temple. A standard question in all of those interviews involves whether the person is morally clean. While the question can be asked in a very general way, it will be asked. Sometimes additional definition is added to make sure that the individual understands that being morally clean, in addition to avoiding sexual intercourse, means avoiding petting and oral sex. It has also been my experience that when those activities are involved, the repentance process typically involves the Bishop. I had a lot of experience with those activities as a youth and went through a significant process to go on a mission that involved my speaking to Bishop, Stake President and General Authority. Although I was not asked to describe my activities in graphic detail, I was asked to tell what I had done. The process was not embarrassing and was generally quite helpful. Now, I might have felt different if I was a girl. My two daughters have also had their share of issues. What they have shared with me about the process has generally been positive. The one negative experience occurred when my 25 year old daughter had some significant issues. Her Bishop was new to the job and I think he was simply not prepared for dealing with those types of situations. My daughter moved from the area and stopped attending for a few years. I don't think that this was directly a result of the Bishop, but his response helped push her out the door as opposed to helping her back through it. This was at the same time as Prop 8 and she had serious issues with the means being used in San Diego to push the Church's position. She moved back to the same area about 4 years later and the guy was still Bishop. He saw her in the audience and approached her after the meeting. He apologized for his lack of empathy and understanding. He said that he had thought about her regularly for the past 4 years and was grateful that he had the opportunity to see her, learn that she is well and to apologize.
I have never worried about a Bishop asking these questions inappropriately. Maybe I should have.
I have never known of any inappropriate questions being asked, but then again, we've always known our bishops quite well. In a church as big as ours, I am not surprised that there have been incidents. Still, it's not something we have ever worried about.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
deleted
Last edited by concerned; 03-11-2014 at 01:44 PM.
In response to a question below about the nature of the interviews, how many there are, etc.:
Apart from interviews for callings and young men's advancement in the priesthood (deacon to teacher to priest) and temple recommend interviews for doing baptisms, every youth is supposed to have an annual interview with the bishop and one at 6 months with the bishopric counselor assigned to their age group. (1st counselor: ages 14-16; 2nd counselor: ages 12-14. Bishop handles 16-18 age group.) From the Church Handbook of Instructions:
Now, bear in mind that the above is from the Handbook. I doubt it is followed perfectly most wards. I am a member of our ward bishopric and out interviews are pretty informal, in the nature of "How are things going?"Guidelines for Youth Interviews
The bishop interviews each young man and young woman at least annually. If possible, he interviews each 16- and 17-year-old twice annually. If this is not possible, he assigns a counselor to conduct some of these interviews.
Six months after the annual interview with the bishop, each young man and young woman ages 12 through 15 has an interview with the counselor in the bishopric who oversees the Aaronic Priesthood quorum or Young Women class.
In large wards, bishops, acting with inspiration and wisdom, may adjust the frequency of interviews. Some youth may need added attention, while others may need less frequent interviews than are suggested, though all should be interviewed at least annually.
Leaders encourage parents to stay close to their children and to counsel them, allowing the leaders to act in a supporting role.
Interviews are excellent teaching opportunities and can be spiritual experiences for youth. Members of the bishopric should express love and listen carefully. They encourage youth to talk rather than doing most of the talking themselves.
Matters for discussion include the growth of the young person’s testimony of Heavenly Father, the mission and Atonement of Jesus Christ, and the restored gospel. The importance of sustaining the President of the Church and other general and local Church leaders should also be discussed.
Another matter for discussion is the importance of obeying the commandments, particularly:
- Praying regularly in private and with the family, studying the scriptures, honoring parents, and paying a full tithing.
- Being modest in dress and action, refraining from any kind of sexual activity, and refraining from viewing, reading, or listening to pornographic material.
- Obeying the Word of Wisdom and refraining from using illegal drugs and misusing other substances.
- Refraining from using the name of the Lord in vain and from using vulgar expressions and other degrading language.
- Attending priesthood and sacrament meetings, participating in other Church meetings and activities, and fulfilling assignments given by quorum leaders or Young Women class presidency members.
Members of the bishopric may want to refer to the scriptures, For the Strength of Youth, and True to the Faith during discussions about gospel principles and obeying the commandments.
While interviewing young men, the bishopric member gives special attention to their preparation for a full-time mission (see 4.2). He discusses preparing spiritually by being worthy, studying the gospel, and building a testimony. He also discusses preparing physically, mentally, emotionally, and financially. Members of the bishopric should be sensitive to the circumstances under which young men are honorably excused from full-time missionary service (see 4.5.3).
The bishop and his counselors encourage young women to support young men in accepting mission calls. Young women of eligible age who desire to serve a mission may do so, but they should not be pressured to serve (see 4.3.2).
Members of the bishopric ensure that youth understand the blessings of temple covenants and temple marriage and the requirements for receiving these blessings.
When interviewing a young man for priesthood ordination, the bishop or his assigned counselor discusses the blessings of holding the Aaronic Priesthood and the duties of the office to which the young man will be ordained, as revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 20:46–60 (see also Handbook 2, 8.1.1).
In interviews with young men, the bishopric member emphasizes the importance of living the standards in For the Strength of Youth and accomplishing the purposes of the Aaronic Priesthood (see Handbook 2, 8.1.3). He evaluates the young man’s progress and encourages him.
When interviewing a young woman, the bishopric member emphasizes the importance of incorporating the Young Women values and the standards in For the Strength of Youth in her daily living (see Handbook 2, 10.1.4 and 10.5). He also emphasizes the importance of completing the Personal Progress program. He evaluates the young woman’s progress and encourages her.
When interviewing youth of seminary age, the bishopric member emphasizes the importance of regular attendance at seminary and the blessings that come from active participation.
When discussing moral cleanliness, the bishop adapts the discussion to the understanding of the youth. He also ensures that the discussion does not encourage curiosity or experimentation.
Last edited by LA Ute; 03-11-2014 at 01:54 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Thanks, I guess. I had changed my mind about posting that, and deleted it, but you are too efficient. I do appreciate the information. My kids aren't to the age or point where it is an issue, but you never know. Our bishop is a great guy.
When I was about 12 or 13 I was asked by a bishopric counselor whether I had a problem with 'self-abuse'. I answered in the affirmative, and he pressed for details. He asked me whether I masturbated. I didn't know the word so I asked him what it was. He gave me a brief clinical explanation of masturbation and why people do it (pull on the thing, stuff comes out, feel good). Then he asked me whether I understood what he meant by 'self abuse', and I nodded uncomfortably despite the fact that I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about and at the time didn't have any related desire. But the seed was planted.
Then with great shame I explained that sometimes I would refuse to eat spinach and Brussels sprouts, even though they were good for me. And sometimes I would get upset and punch a wall. Those were the ways I 'abused' myself.
He probably felt bad about it for a short while and never thought about it again, and we moved a few months later. But I am sure he never thought twice about the fact that he had taught a 13 yr old boy how to masturbate.
That is a rare story if course, but if something like that happens to my kids I will break the guy's fucking kneecaps.
I really want to see the church change the interview process entirely before a class-action lawsuit forces them to do it.
What an astoundingly stupid thing to do. I think stories like yours are he reason the handbook instructions caution bishopric members not to do exactly what that guy did.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Although I agree with LA and Concerned that most bishops are careful with the topic, Viking is asking about personal interviews in which his girls are asked to disclose personal information about morality. I would think that sort of discussion is par for the course when "discussing moral cleanliness."
Fair enough. Everyone's experience is different, but behold, my opinion:
It would take a real oddball bishopric member to go south with an interview in that way. If parents are concerned about whether that will happen, a talk with the bishop will suffice in 99% of cases. Above all, if parents are talking to their kids and have good relationships they will be the ones in control of what their kids learn about sex and how their kids react when ecclesiastical curveballs are thrown their way. Of all the threats facing Mormon kids these days, I'd put the bishopric near the bottom of the list.
We will now return to our regularly scheduled programming....
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
My kids meet with the bishop now and again. He is a friend of our family. I have always assumed he was just bonding with them and showing interest in them. This thread has scared me to death. I had no idea they are being interrogated now. I assumed that didn't happen until you were much older to demonstrate worthiness to go on a mission get married in the temple etc. Now I wonder what he is asking them
I'd agree with this but it is still a threat that needs to be considered on some level. Personally, I'm not too concerned with my current bishop as I'm sure he isn't the kind of guy to dig for details.
Frankly however, I'm stunned the church still allows an adult male to have a private one-on-one interview, behind closed doors, with a teenage kid. Blows my mind.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
My 14 year old daughter came home one Sunday and told me, "Dad I had an interview with the Bishop and he asked me if I was sexually active." That was the last straw for me. In what world is it ok for the old man living down the street in the Cul-De-Sac to ask my daughter in a one on one "interview" this question? Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a decent dude who was just doing what he thought his job was as Bishop. But that's not the point. The point is it is never OK for this sort of question to be asked of my 14 year-old daughter by any neighbor, let alone a male adult.
I can't fathom how the church doesn't recognize this is a problem.
So tell the Bishop he's not allowed to interview your kids without you or your wife present.
This thread has predictably devolved to a point where paranoia and suspicion of motives is deemed wholly rational. I'm sure the guy from the Cul-De-Sac is nice, but you are likely right—dude's likely a pervert. After all, no one can be trusted to genuinely care about the physical, mental and spiritual well-being of another soul, except family. Parents especially are enough—they all ask the hard questions at the right time and I am confident every parent fulfills the full mandate of their parental responsibilities. Families don't need support, love or consideration—at least not from religion. Because if such is required, their's a community program to fill that need somewhere, I guess.
Genuine caring and concern for others is never a problem. Fear and undue paranoia is.
This doesn't even make sense. But thanks for chiming in.
It's sarcasm. Did you need a smiley?
This is the relationship that I had with my Young Men's leaders. I absolutely loved them and would have run through a brick wall for those guys. They spent tons of time with us in church, for mutual, on camp outs, high adventures, etc. I have the utmost respect for those leaders. I even sent several of them letters years later thanking them for all that they did for me.
I cannot say the same thing for the bishops that I had. They were good guys, but just didn't have the same involvement in my life during that time. They didn't always come to our quorum meetings, and rarely went on the camp outs, to mutual activities (outside of opening exercises), or on the high adventures, so I simply didn't get to know them as well. They simply had a different role in the ward and in my life.
So my point, i think, is that I benefited greatly from the love, time, sacrifice and charity of many of my church leaders. I hope that my kids experience the same thing in the church. I agree that it is very beneficial to have as many role models and caring people as possible in a teen's life, whether it be a young men's leader, young women's leader, scoutmaster, bishop or counselor, etc.
I also think that we don't need to be paranoid (as tooblue pointed out) about bishops, but a simple conversation with the bishop (or any adult your children interact with) to make sure everyone is on the same team can be nothing but beneficial for you and your child.
I don't know enough about the LDS reason for doing this to chime in on that side. I can just say it's something I never experienced of heard of in all the Protestant churches I grew up in and around.
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