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Thread: Random thoughts I had about Mormons, Joseph Smith, and the future of the Church, etc

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Like this beauty I grew up attending? We called it the mausoleum.

    Where is that? I want to go take pictures.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    You'll be glad to know the kids still climb all over that building, as the well as the one on 20th East and Michigan Avenue.and the Garden Park Ward. Some things never change
    And every ward member calls the police about it


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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    Where is that? I want to go take pictures.
    About 1400 S 1900 E if my memory is serving me


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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Two of the more interesting things to come from the video leak was that internal church data shows 70%+ of youth go inactive by age 20......
    Just by the eyeball test I can see gobs and gobs of young members leaving the church (or going less active), but I'm surprised it is that high. I'm having a difficult time keeping one of my three kids interested in the church at all, and the other two are marginally interested. Just doesn't seem as relevant to them, and the most recent policy announcement is a dagger in the heart. Makes my job really difficult.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    Where is that? I want to go take pictures.
    Yalecrest (which is about 1010 South) and 18th East. There are a bunch of great buildings in that stake. Garden Park, Monument Park, and Yale are all pretty cool, too.

  6. #36
    We went to the Garden Park building when we first married. Great building. We had priesthood meeting in a cottage that was next to the main building.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Just by the eyeball test I can see gobs and gobs of young members leaving the church (or going less active), but I'm surprised it is that high. I'm having a difficult time keeping one of my three kids interested in the church at all, and the other two are marginally interested. Just doesn't seem as relevant to them, and the most recent policy announcement is a dagger in the heart. Makes my job really difficult.

    The recent M.S. interview with Greg Prince is very interesting. He's had discussions with LDS officials and officials in other churches about the youth problem. It's not just a Mormon problem. His comment was that the younger generation don't feel the duty to carry on traditions, and if something doesn't work for them, they will move on to something that does. I've heard others speculate that younger people want to make a difference, and sitting in a building and listening doesn't seem like making a difference.

    Highly recommend the recent Greg Prince interview.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    The recent M.S. interview with Greg Prince is very interesting. He's had discussions with LDS officials and officials in other churches about the youth problem. It's not just a Mormon problem. His comment was that the younger generation don't feel the duty to carry on traditions, and if something doesn't work for them, they will move on to something that does. I've heard others speculate that younger people want to make a difference, and sitting in a building and listening doesn't seem like making a difference.

    Highly recommend the recent Greg Prince interview.
    link?

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    link?

    Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

    http://www.mormonstories.org/greg-pr...and-historian/


    epsiodes 2 and 3 are the best.
    episode 1 is interesting, but it's about his career.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Even though I live in CO, I'm still bummed to think that my childhood chapel on 9th ave and K st is gone. Twas a great building.
    That was the building my wife and I attended when we were first married. Sad that it is gone.
    "Don't apologize; it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."

  11. #41
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This probably describes some kids. Others leave because they are bored. Others because they are ashamed or offended. All the traditional reasons, I suppose. Maybe the percentages shift from generation to generation.

    The sad thing is that the LDS church provides more opportunities for making a difference than many of the other places youth will turn to. I did regular service through the church as a kid. Then I really felt like I made a difference as a missionary. Since then, I've had many callings where I was able to make a difference. The LDS church has also helped me make a difference as a father and husband.

    Too many of the kids who want to make a difference end up mired in politics, where their energies are completely wasted on crap that doesn't make a difference. I also met many people in New Orleans who came full of hope for the Teach for America program. Every single one of them was completely jaded within 1-2 months after realizing they were not going to make a difference for even one student.

    Side note: my ward hasn't done any kind of community service since I got here 4 years ago. I miss that. Maybe I need to do something about it. We don't even have many moves, which has always been a great way for me to feel like I've made a small difference to someone. Moving is awful, which is why helping people move feels so good.
    It seems like you have a good attitude about service. Kudos to you, Sancho.

    Too often, LDS "service" is just Mormons helping other Mormons plan/perform Mormon activities.

    I bumped into a friend today who is a Branch President. He told me that he spends a lot of Fast Offerings on his little branch. It made me happy to think that he's helping people in my town.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  12. #42
    Temple service seems to have replaced good old fashioned serving the needy which was a staple for me as a youth.

    Some of you may know the name of Lowell Bennion. He was my Bishop as a youth and, if you know anything about Lowell, he had us all out serving once a month. The projects were never even in our stake boundaries. Most projects ended at a park having some completely unhealthy food. Great memories.

    I don't mean to demean temple service. I certainly view it as service but I'm plagued frequently by the definition of pure religion in James chapter one. At a personal level I'm no where near it and my ward and stake are doing almost nothing outside of providing financial support. I realize that is a significant thing but the scripture seems to require personal involvement to be truly religious.

    Just thinking out loud.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Temple service seems to have replaced good old fashioned serving the needy which was a staple for me as a youth.

    Some of you may know the name of Lowell Bennion. He was my Bishop as a youth and, if you know anything about Lowell, he had us all out serving once a month. The projects were never even in our stake boundaries. Most projects ended at a park having some completely unhealthy food. Great memories.

    I don't mean to demean temple service. I certainly view it as service but I'm plagued frequently by the definition of pure religion in James chapter one. At a personal level I'm no where near it and my ward and stake are doing almost nothing outside of providing financial support. I realize that is a significant thing but the scripture seems to require personal involvement to be truly religious.

    Just thinking out loud.
    I used to know a guy who said "service hides a multitude of sins..." I still haven't been able to find the scripture for that but I think there is some truth there. I like service but that is just because I'm not great at very many things and I have a short attention span so it is easier for me to go and rake leaves for someone than sit through some meeting.

    I used to work from home when I first started my business. When the weather was good I would sit out in my yard and work and I could see down my street. It was kind of amazing to see, but there were a bunch of people on my street and one neighbor in particular who were sneaking around non-stop doing little things for people. I'd see her walk out with some meal she'd cooked for someone. Later I'd see her go in someone's yard and pull some weeds. Then she'd be taking some vegetables to someone else. It was non-stop and every day.

    I finally yelled at her one day from my work spot that kind of kept me in hiding, "I see what you are doing all the time in this neighborhood and I can't say I approve! You are making us all look bad!" She scampered off and then the next day came by semi in tears, "Please don't tell people what I'm doing..." She really loved just serving without credit and was afraid I'd ruin it.

    But aside from her, there were just a lot of people doing cool stuff anonymously for others. Fun to see that from my vantage point.

    My mom is disabled and particularly in the winter home bound. Temple work and indexing gives her a big sense of purpose. I guess to your point above, if you are doing the least amount of service just so you can check off a box (like substituting temple service with other service) then you are missing the point.

  14. #44
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    I used to know a guy who said "service hides a multitude of sins..." I still haven't been able to find the scripture for that but I think there is some truth there. I like service but that is just because I'm not great at very many things and I have a short attention span so it is easier for me to go and rake leaves for someone than sit through some meeting.

    I used to work from home when I first started my business. When the weather was good I would sit out in my yard and work and I could see down my street. It was kind of amazing to see, but there were a bunch of people on my street and one neighbor in particular who were sneaking around non-stop doing little things for people. I'd see her walk out with some meal she'd cooked for someone. Later I'd see her go in someone's yard and pull some weeds. Then she'd be taking some vegetables to someone else. It was non-stop and every day.

    I finally yelled at her one day from my work spot that kind of kept me in hiding, "I see what you are doing all the time in this neighborhood and I can't say I approve! You are making us all look bad!" She scampered off and then the next day came by semi in tears, "Please don't tell people what I'm doing..." She really loved just serving without credit and was afraid I'd ruin it.

    But aside from her, there were just a lot of people doing cool stuff anonymously for others. Fun to see that from my vantage point.

    My mom is disabled and particularly in the winter home bound. Temple work and indexing gives her a big sense of purpose. I guess to your point above, if you are doing the least amount of service just so you can check off a box (like substituting temple service with other service) then you are missing the point.
    James 5:20:

    Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

    This is one of the reasons I spend time with Seattle Ute. Apart from his wit and wisdom, of course.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #45
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Temple service seems to have replaced good old fashioned serving the needy which was a staple for me as a youth.

    Some of you may know the name of Lowell Bennion. He was my Bishop as a youth and, if you know anything about Lowell, he had us all out serving once a month. The projects were never even in our stake boundaries. Most projects ended at a park having some completely unhealthy food. Great memories.

    I don't mean to demean temple service. I certainly view it as service but I'm plagued frequently by the definition of pure religion in James chapter one. At a personal level I'm no where near it and my ward and stake are doing almost nothing outside of providing financial support. I realize that is a significant thing but the scripture seems to require personal involvement to be truly religious.

    Just thinking out loud.
    As long as we are thinking out loud, let me add that it just occurred to me that J. Holland's GC talk on home teaching this last time around, if truly applied in the spirit he suggests, would be very Bennionesque. Service doesn't have to be organized. (I was named after Lowell Bennion, BTW.)

    During my term as Scoutmaster one thing I noticed was that when we did real service projects that affected real people in visible ways -- like taking Christmas trees to families that didn't have them -- the scouts were always very happy. Every time we did them one or two of the boys would say to me, "This is fun."

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #46
    Now I know why I think so much of you Lowell - your namesake. Cool story.

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    As long as we are thinking out loud, let me add that it just occurred to me that J. Holland's GC talk on home teaching this last time around, if truly applied in the spirit he suggests, would be very Bennionesque. Service doesn't have to be organized. (I was named after Lowell Bennion, BTW.)

    During my term as Scoutmaster one thing I noticed was that when we did real service projects that affected real people in visible ways -- like taking Christmas trees to families that didn't have them -- the scouts were always very happy. Every time we did them one or two of the boys would say to me, "This is fun."
    HT'ing is easily the best church program to date, (although I'll entertain arguments on the youth seminary program), but, am a huge fan of home teaching.

    I only have 2 families in Salt Lake, and they're both practicing members within walking distance. Feels like a cakewalk. Back east I had between 7-9 families, most were not practicing, and they were spread out over a 45 minute drive end-to-end. Even if I was fortunate to get an appointment, half the time they wouldn't answer when I showed up. I'd be lucky to get 2 visits each month, and was burnt out in no time. The visiting teachers had the same problem but they resorted to writing letters for majority of the ladies. Still love the program but was a failure in that ward. 30% activity rate, and not everyone was willing to be a home teacher. I think they've culled it down to about 3 families now by cutting out the "fat" -- i.e. those that would never let the home teachers into the home even if they secured an appt....which was almost all of the inactive members.

    Scouting OTOH -- horrible, wretched program.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    Two of the more interesting things to come from the video leak was that internal church data shows 70%+ of youth go inactive by age 20, and that there are 3.8 million active church members in the USA. Demographics seem to bear these out, as can be seen in shrinking wards.
    what video was that?

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
    Yalecrest (which is about 1010 South) and 18th East. There are a bunch of great buildings in that stake. Garden Park, Monument Park, and Yale are all pretty cool, too.
    I've taken photos of many old churches in that general area, so how did I miss this one?

    Btw, my father grew up in the Garden Park ward.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  20. #50
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    HT'ing is easily the best church program to date, (although I'll entertain arguments on the youth seminary program), but, am a huge fan of home teaching.

    I only have 2 families in Salt Lake, and they're both practicing members within walking distance. Feels like a cakewalk. Back east I had between 7-9 families, most were not practicing, and they were spread out over a 45 minute drive end-to-end. Even if I was fortunate to get an appointment, half the time they wouldn't answer when I showed up. I'd be lucky to get 2 visits each month, and was burnt out in no time. The visiting teachers had the same problem but they resorted to writing letters for majority of the ladies. Still love the program but was a failure in that ward. 30% activity rate, and not everyone was willing to be a home teacher. I think they've culled it down to about 3 families now by cutting out the "fat" -- i.e. those that would never let the home teachers into the home even if they secured an appt....which was almost all of the inactive members.

    Scouting OTOH -- horrible, wretched program.
    I understand how you and others feel about scouting. I mentioned it only because it was an example of how service done the right way is inspiring to the young men.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #51

    Random thoughts I had about Mormons Joseph Smith and the future of the Church etc

    Easy answer for a Christian. Bit if matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, but only transformed, where do atheists suggest everything came from?

  22. #52
    There was a nice quote to go with my cup of tea tonight:



    I'm sure the irony is lost on most people, but I enjoyed it immensely.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Utebiquitous View Post
    Some of you may know the name of Lowell Bennion. He was my Bishop as a youth and, if you know anything about Lowell, he had us all out serving once a month. The projects were never even in our stake boundaries. Most projects ended at a park having some completely unhealthy food. Great memories.
    I knew Lowell Bennion. I spent a couple summers at his boy's ranch in Victor, Idaho when I was 12-ish. That was a great experience. He was a peer of my grandfather. I think that's where the initial connection came from. I think that place changed a lot of lives for the better.

  24. #54
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Fascinating Terry Gross interview with Laurel Thatcher Ulrich about Ulrich's NW book on 19th century Mormon polygamy:

    http://www.npr.org/templates/transcr...ml&f=510246850

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #55
    Looks like an interesting book. Laurel Thatcher-Ulrich has fantastic insight and is an engaging author.

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