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Thread: The Kyle Whittingham Thread

  1. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    What happens in 2020 is a different story. I suspect Kyle will stick by his original plan and retire.
    If he retires, he retires. But if he's forced out, we will likely regret it.

    I disagree about an NFL team. Right now, Utah is the main attraction for football in the state. A poor man's LSU/OSU. That's good for Utah football and for the state itself.

  2. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    We are seeing pretty much the same thing every season. 7-8 wins
    Here's Kyle's breakdown as a head coach:

    Five Wins: 2012, 2013
    Seven Wins: 2005, 2017
    Eight Wins: 2006, 2011
    Nine Wins: 2007, 2014, 2016
    Ten Wins: 2009, 2010, 2015
    Thirteen Wins: 2008

    Some thoughts:

    1) The 7-8 wins per year thing is not really accurate
    2) 2012/2013 should be written off as Pac-12 transition years, I think.
    3) He started with consistent increase 7-8-9-13, then a couple of 10-win seasons, which is great.
    4) If you look at a plot of these, 2017 is the real outlier at 7 wins. We had 9-10-9 going into 2017.

    This season will be anywhere from 6-10 wins. We'll see.

  3. #1053
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Here's Kyle's breakdown as a head coach:

    Five Wins: 2012, 2013
    Seven Wins: 2005, 2017
    Eight Wins: 2006, 2011
    Nine Wins: 2007, 2014, 2016
    Ten Wins: 2009, 2010, 2015
    Thirteen Wins: 2008

    Some thoughts:

    1) The 7-8 wins per year thing is not really accurate
    2) 2012/2013 should be written off as Pac-12 transition years, I think.
    3) He started with consistent increase 7-8-9-13, then a couple of 10-win seasons, which is great.
    4) If you look at a plot of these, 2017 is the real outlier at 7 wins. We had 9-10-9 going into 2017.

    This season will be anywhere from 6-10 wins. We'll see.
    You’re like a defense attorney for him. He’s below .500 in PAC-12 games:

    2011: 4-5
    2012: 3-6
    2013: 2-7
    2014: 5-4
    2015: 6-3
    2016: 5-4
    2017: 3-6

    Overall: 28-35

    He’s actually been very consistent within a certain range.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

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  4. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    2011: 4-5
    2012: 3-6
    2013: 2-7
    2014: 5-4
    2015: 6-3
    2016: 5-4
    2017: 3-6
    \
    I'm not sure why you'd throw out 25% of the games, but this is also interesting to look at. Once again, 2017 is the outlier. After the Pac-12 transition years, He went 5-6-5 and then 3. This season will be anywhere from 4-6 in Pac-12.

  5. #1055
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I'm not sure why you'd throw out 25% of the games, but this is also interesting to look at. Once again, 2017 is the outlier. After the Pac-12 transition years, He went 5-6-5 and then 3. This season will be anywhere from 4-6 in Pac-12.
    I see the conference games as the real tests, the games we need to win in order to win championships.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I see the conference games as the real tests, the games we need to win in order to win championships.
    Sure, it's useful to look at both sets of data. We should also include bowl record; that one doesn't require any internet research

  7. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Sure, it's useful to look at both sets of data. We should also include bowl record; that one doesn't require any internet research
    Or does it? The quality of teams played in the bowl games is about like our non conference games.




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  8. #1058
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Sure, it's useful to look at both sets of data. We should also include bowl record; that one doesn't require any internet research
    His bowl record is great, but bowl championships are not the same as conference championships.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    His bowl record is great, but bowl championships are not the same as conference championships.
    That is true. I wasn't trying to be a lawyer here. My brother sent me an email with his wins per year, and I shared it. I think it is a plus on his resume. I think the bowl record is a plus as well. The Pac-12 record is not awful, but I understand how some may see it that way.

    I guess the only thing that will satisfy is a conference title. Although, if we win the Pac-12 this year and then blow a game in November next year, I expect the usual reaction. The sky is always falling after a loss.

  10. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Or does it? The quality of teams played in the bowl games is about like our non conference games.
    This isn't true, though. The teams Kyle has beaten:

    Georgia Tech x2
    Tulsa
    Navy
    Alabama
    Cal
    CSU
    BYU
    Indiana
    West Va

    Every single one was bowl eligible. Over half were P5 teams. Each was better than about half of the other P5 teams in that given year.

    I get it - these are not all NY6 bowls. But Kyle's bowl record is a feather in his cap. I don't think there's any point in pretending otherwise.

  11. #1061
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This isn't true, though. The teams Kyle has beaten:

    Georgia Tech x2
    Tulsa
    Navy
    Alabama
    Cal
    CSU
    BYU
    Indiana
    West Va

    Every single one was bowl eligible. Over half were P5 teams. Each was better than about half of the other P5 teams in that given year.

    I get it - these are not all NY6 bowls. But Kyle's bowl record is a feather in his cap. I don't think there's any point in pretending otherwise.
    Yet who have we beaten since we jumped up to the PAC?

    His bowl record is great....but reality is since we’ve been in the big leagues we don’t have an impressive bowl victory


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  12. #1062
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    reality is since we’ve been in the big leagues we don’t have an impressive bowl victory
    I may be more easily impressed than you. I think it's great that we beat CSU, BYU, Indiana, and West Va while in the Pac-12. Those were all good teams.

    I don't know why we would discount what Kyle accomplished for us in the MWC. Why throw out half his resume? If not for those games, Utah is not in the Pac-12 right now. And, of course, he did win a national championship while in the MWC. That belongs front and center on his list of accomplishments.

  13. #1063
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I may be more easily impressed than you. I think it's great that we beat CSU, BYU, Indiana, and West Va while in the Pac-12. Those were all good teams.

    I don't know why we would discount what Kyle accomplished for us in the MWC. Why throw out half his resume? If not for those games, Utah is not in the Pac-12 right now. And, of course, he did win a national championship while in the MWC. That belongs front and center on his list of accomplishments.
    Sancho, thanks for carrying the torch on the Whittingham cause. I agree with everything you say. I understand people wanting to finally win the PAC12 South, as ever other team in the south has done. But I wouldn’t take any of those coaches over Kyle if I was hiring for the position.

  14. #1064
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    That is true. I wasn't trying to be a lawyer here. My brother sent me an email with his wins per year, and I shared it. I think it is a plus on his resume. I think the bowl record is a plus as well. The Pac-12 record is not awful, but I understand how some may see it that way.

    I guess the only thing that will satisfy is a conference title. Although, if we win the Pac-12 this year and then blow a game in November next year, I expect the usual reaction. The sky is always falling after a loss.
    NO question about his bowl record. My concern is about the plateau. There's no reason to think he can move off of the one he's on. If the team wins convincingly the rest of the way I'll re-evaluate. Before the ASU game I was thinking we finally had evidence of escape from the plateau. Not so.

    Here's the "plateau pattern:"


    • Offensive woes, serial OC changes. This one may be one he's moved from.


    • Disappointing Novembers.


    • Bizarre season-changing losses in key games in which we are favored: Colorado 2011; Arizona 2014; UCLA 2015; Oregon 2016; ASU 2018.
    • Losing PAC-12 record.


    These things happen annually except for 1 winning PAC-12 season. He has a system, "the process," and he's doggedly committed to it. The process works pretty well, but he won't change it, so will we ever get off the plateau? I don't see any reason for hope. Some people are OK with that and I get that. I'm not OK with it. I don't think it's fair to call this a "The sky is falling" attitude. It's more "Here we go again."
    Last edited by LA Ute; 11-06-2018 at 12:23 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #1065
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    NO question about his bowl record. My concern is about the plateau. There's no reason to think he can move off of the one he's on. If the team wins convincingly the rest of the way I'll re-evaluate. Before the ASU game I was thinking we finally had evidence of escape from the plateau. Not so.

    Here's the "plateau pattern:"


    • Offensive woes, serial OC changes. This one may be one he's moved from.


    • Disappointing Novembers.


    • Bizarre season-changing losses in key games in which we are favored: Colorado 2011; Arizona 2014; UCLA 2015; Oregon 2016; ASU 2018.
    • Losing PAC-12 record.


    These things happen annually except for 1 winning PAC-12 season. He has a system, "the process," and he's doggedly committed to it. The process works pretty well, but he won't change it, so will we ever get off the plateau? I don't see any reason for hope. Some people are OK with that and I get that. I'm not OK with it. I don't think it's fair to call this a "The sky is falling" attitude. It's more "Here we go again."
    2016 - Utah finished 5-4 in PAC-12 play
    2015 finished 6-3
    2014 finished 5-4

    If we win an additional game in 2018 that will be 4 of the last 5 years with a winning record in conference.

    The first 3 years in conference were brutal as expected, Utah was 9-18.
    Last edited by Scorcho; 11-06-2018 at 12:27 PM.

  16. #1066
    What in the Sam Hill is going on here. KW isn't going anywhere. What's wrong with you people? He can coach the he(( out of a team, runs a clean program, wins year-in and year-out, and is front and center as a great ambassador for the University.

    Now get back to watching what will surely be a sh!$-show this week on UF.N.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

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  17. #1067
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    My concern is about the plateau. There's no reason to think he can move off of the one he's on.
    In that sense, he's a victim of his own success. He won a national title, and he's regularly won 8-10 games in the Pac-12. He spends a good deal of time in the top 25. Moving off that plateau means becoming a top 10 program. Maybe our primary disagreement is that I don't think becoming a top 10 program is reasonable, and you do.

    Bizarre season-changing losses in key games in which we are favored: Colorado 2011; Arizona 2014; UCLA 2015; Oregon 2016; ASU 2018.
    I don't see these as bizarre. Certainly disappointing, but not bizarre. It's hard to win football games against good teams. You will lose some, even some in which you are favored. College football is famous for its chaos, meaning its upsets. That's part of the charm of the game. This is also what sets apart the true powerhouse programs from the rest of us. A true power doesn't drop those games; everyone else does. Again, I think this is about expectations. Yours are higher than mine, perhaps unreasonably higher.

  18. #1068
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    The fact of the matter is winning the PAC 12 is hard, which is why some pretty phenomenal programs like USC, Washington and Oregon, and great coaches like David Shaw, can't do it regularly.

    I have a hard time going from singing Whit and Taylor praises a week ago, to throwing them under the bus this week and dismissing them as mediocre, particularly when your starting QB goes down and a redshirt frosh replaces him. Remember we shellacked USC when Darnold played his first game, and he was the #3 pick in the NFL this year and on a team stacked with talent.
    I don't think we're lamenting Kyle's inability to win a Pac-12 championship; I know I'm not. I think we're lamenting his inability to win the South, which history has shown to be quite easy to win in that every other team in the league has done it at least once. Hell, there are coaches that have been fired in our division who have won the South.

    Greatness has always been about the QB at Utah, but Kyle has us built to win without being dependent upon great QB play. To completely fall apart against ASU defensively -- that's Kyle's calling card. We still had Moss, we still had the kicking game and we still got rolled.

  19. #1069
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I guess this is true. There are a few camps here:

    1) The camp that thinks that a new coach turns Utah into a perennial top 10 team. This camp is naive. I don't think any posters here fall into this camp.

    2) The camp that understands the risks but would like to roll the dice anyway. For this camp, merely being good is infuriating. It's greatness or bust. They are willing to accept bad odds for a small chance at greatness. These are the gamblers, the people who don't understand percentages.

    3) The camp that is satisfied with good. These are the content. They may never go to a Rose Bowl, and they're alright with that.

    4) The camp that hates losing more than they love winning. They would rather keep a sure thing than risk becoming a cellar dweller. These are the afraid.

    5) The camp that has always gotten what they want because they have money. Their minds can't fathom the idea of not being able to buy something, including a Rose Bowl trophy. These are the spoiled.

    6) The camp that will go down with the ship. These are the people intensely loyal to someone who doesn't even know them.

    7) The camp that looks around at other programs and weighs the evidence. These are the scientists. They do understand percentages.

    There's always a chance that a new coach takes us to the college football promised land. Based on evidence, it's a slim chance. But it's a chance. I guess I can understand that someone would want to take that chance. There are a lot of people who are more inclined to take risks than I am. It's a high risk/high reward mindset that doesn't resonate with me.

    There's also a chance that Kyle wins another national title for us. It could happen. It's also a slim chance. The downside, however, is minimal. Kyle is not going to start fielding awful teams.

    One last thing - if Harlan's first major move at Utah is to force Kyle Whittingham into an early retirement...well, that's not a good look. He'd better absolutely nail that new hire. He landed into a sweet job that he can have for a long time, and I don't think he'll be crazy enough to risk that.
    You can definitely put me in Camp No. 2, and I do understand percentages, TYVM.

    You're right about Camp 1 -- nobody on this site and very few elsewhere actually believe this. And I don't think Camp 5 exists here either.

    Camps 3 and 4 are absolute killjoys, but you forgot to mention that either have a massive insecurity complex with BYU or couldn't stand a year without going to the Who Gives a Shit? Bowl and would pass down the opportunity to go 13-1 and play for a national title if it meant we had to lose to BYU or go without a bowl for a few years leading up to it.

    Camp 6 only exists in large numbers on Facebook fan pages, and nobody takes them seriously anyway.

    Camp 7 offers the best rebuttals and arguments.

  20. #1070
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    You can definitely put me in Camp No. 2, and I do understand percentages, TYVM.

    You're right about Camp 1 -- nobody on this site and very few elsewhere actually believe this. And I don't think Camp 5 exists here either.

    Camps 3 and 4 are absolute killjoys, but you forgot to mention that either have a massive insecurity complex with BYU or couldn't stand a year without going to the Who Gives a Shit? Bowl and would pass down the opportunity to go 13-1 and play for a national title if it meant we had to lose to BYU or go without a bowl for a few years leading up to it.

    Camp 6 only exists in large numbers on Facebook fan pages, and nobody takes them seriously anyway.

    Camp 7 offers the best rebuttals and arguments.
    so you are ready to move on from a coach who:

    - graduates players (2nd in the PAC-12 in 2016-2017)

    - has had remarkable success giving players with problems second chances

    - not a hint of any wrong doing or scandal in his career

    - gone 27-1 (96%) in OOC games, including wins over Michigan (2), Georgia Tech, Pitt, Indiana since joining PAC-12 conference

    - is 5-3 against Stanford and USC in the last 5 years

    - should finish 4 of the last 5 years with a winning PAC-12 record

    - is 7-0 vs. in-state rival

    - has shown unbelievable loyalty for a couple of decades

  21. #1071
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    You can definitely put me in Camp No. 2, and I do understand percentages, TYVM.

    You're right about Camp 1 -- nobody on this site and very few elsewhere actually believe this. And I don't think Camp 5 exists here either.

    Camps 3 and 4 are absolute killjoys, but you forgot to mention that either have a massive insecurity complex with BYU or couldn't stand a year without going to the Who Gives a Shit? Bowl and would pass down the opportunity to go 13-1 and play for a national title if it meant we had to lose to BYU or go without a bowl for a few years leading up to it.

    Camp 6 only exists in large numbers on Facebook fan pages, and nobody takes them seriously anyway.

    Camp 7 offers the best rebuttals and arguments.
    I think I fall into Camp 7. I think I understand the risks, but being risk averse in most things, I am willing to ride this out in the hope that we get to the Rose Bowl. Up until last week I believed this would be the year, but the loss of Huntley has trampled that hope.

    Our talent and talent development put us somewhere in the middle of the PAC and that is where we have finished most years. We are talented enough to challenge and beat the big names, but not so talented that we can simply show up and beat another team of equal talent. With a few coaching exceptions, none of whom are coming to Utah, I don't see our talent level changing dramatically. As a result, I don't see the risk of change being worth it.

    Until that Rose Bowl happens, I will continue to buy my season tickets, attend the games and enjoy watching the Utes. I will try not to get my hopes up until after the final whistle on the last weekend in November. I really jinxed us by buying flights to San Jose for the Championship game after the UCLA win. Fortunately they were on Southwest, so I am not out anything.

  22. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    so you are ready to move on from a coach who:

    - graduates players (2nd in the PAC-12 in 2016-2017)

    - has had remarkable success giving players with problems second chances

    - not a hint of any wrong doing or scandal in his career

    - gone 27-1 (96%) in OOC games, including wins over Michigan (2), Georgia Tech, Pitt, Indiana since joining PAC-12 conference

    - is 5-3 against Stanford and USC in the last 5 years

    - should finish 4 of the last 5 years with a winning PAC-12 record

    - is 7-0 vs. in-state rival

    - has shown unbelievable loyalty for a couple of decades
    Hold it. I hope that by saying I'm prone to being indifferent on Kyle's future at Utah, that I'm not indicating that I don't appreciate what he does Sunday through Friday for the program. Because I do, and I've never said anything to minimize it. OK, maybe I don't give a fluff about grad rates, but that's because a lot of schools have their players major in eligibility and Kyle has to play that game. But as for running a clean program, I respect the hell out of Kyle for doing that.

    Yes, there are worse things than going 9-4 every year. There are also much better things than going 9-4 every year, and I don't even expect them every year. I just want them to happen at least once: Win the South. Play in the Rose Bowl. That's what being in the Pac-12 is all about. It's not about going 27-1 in non-league games. It's not about playing in the league's 6th or 7th-best bowl. It's not about leaving BYU in the dust. Those are nice, help keep the program in a favorable light and make sure Kyle has more money than he'll ever need. But it hasn't done a thing toward achieving the two primary objectives the program has set for itself every year.

  23. #1073
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    2016 - Utah finished 5-4 in PAC-12 play
    2015 finished 6-3
    2014 finished 5-4

    If we win an additional game in 2018 that will be 4 of the last 5 years with a winning record in conference.

    The first 3 years in conference were brutal as expected, Utah was 9-18.
    I was going from (incorrect) memory and so you've got me on the conference W-L record.

    Where I part ways with many Kyle fans* is on the notion that Kyleball is as good as it gets. It reminds me of parents telling their kids to eat their broccoli because things could be worse -- there are children starving in Asia! The notion that we can't be better rubs me the wrong way. In the end I am just disagreeing with many of you about that. I can live with the situation we have and I understand your point of view.

    ____________________

    *I am a Kyle fan myself, but I am a U. of U. fan first. On the Facebook page there are many who act as if it is sacrilegious to question Kyle. That aside, it's not unusual for sports fans to have a greater allegiance to a coach than to the institution he coaches for. Again, just a different point of view.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #1074
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Hold it. I hope that by saying I'm prone to being indifferent on Kyle's future at Utah, that I'm not indicating that I don't appreciate what he does Sunday through Friday for the program. Because I do, and I've never said anything to minimize it. OK, maybe I don't give a fluff about grad rates, but that's because a lot of schools have their players major in eligibility and Kyle has to play that game. But as for running a clean program, I respect the hell out of Kyle for doing that.

    Yes, there are worse things than going 9-4 every year. There are also much better things than going 9-4 every year, and I don't even expect them every year. I just want them to happen at least once: Win the South. Play in the Rose Bowl. That's what being in the Pac-12 is all about. It's not about going 27-1 in non-league games. It's not about playing in the league's 6th or 7th-best bowl. It's not about leaving BYU in the dust. Those are nice, help keep the program in a favorable light and make sure Kyle has more money than he'll ever need. But it hasn't done a thing toward achieving the two primary objectives the program has set for itself every year.
    Well stated.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #1075
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Hold it. I hope that by saying I'm prone to being indifferent on Kyle's future at Utah, that I'm not indicating that I don't appreciate what he does Sunday through Friday for the program. Because I do, and I've never said anything to minimize it. OK, maybe I don't give a fluff about grad rates, but that's because a lot of schools have their players major in eligibility and Kyle has to play that game. But as for running a clean program, I respect the hell out of Kyle for doing that.

    Yes, there are worse things than going 9-4 every year. There are also much better things than going 9-4 every year, and I don't even expect them every year. I just want them to happen at least once: Win the South. Play in the Rose Bowl. That's what being in the Pac-12 is all about. It's not about going 27-1 in non-league games. It's not about playing in the league's 6th or 7th-best bowl. It's not about leaving BYU in the dust. Those are nice, help keep the program in a favorable light and make sure Kyle has more money than he'll ever need. But it hasn't done a thing toward achieving the two primary objectives the program has set for itself every year.
    Fair enough.

    We all want the Rose Bowl, eventually. It’s been said many times but the two AZ schools combined have played 58 seasons in this conference and have a single Rose Bowl appearance. This year I think we had a legit shot, the margin was slim and the loss of Huntley all but eliminated that possibility. But, with a few breaks we still could win the South. I think more important than winning the South is make it to one of the top tier PAC-12 affiliated bowl games like the Holiday or the Alamo. I know the two are closely related but that would show improvement IMO.

    Lastly, with a healthy Huntley I still don’t think we defeat the devils on Saturday. ASU is better at home than most people think. Last year UW went into Phoenix ranked #5 and lost to a 7-5 ASU team.

  26. #1076
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I was going from (incorrect) memory and so you've got me on the conference W-L record.

    Where I part ways with many Kyle fans* is on the notion that Kyleball is as good as it gets. It reminds me of parents telling their kids to eat their broccoli because things could be worse -- there are children starving in Asia! The notion that we can't be better rubs me the wrong way. In the end I am just disagreeing with many of you about that. I can live with the situation we have and I understand your point of view.

    ____________________

    *I am a Kyle fan myself, but I am a U. of U. fan first. On the Facebook page there are many who act as if it is sacrilegious to question Kyle. That aside, it's not unusual for sports fans to have a greater allegiance to a coach than to the institution he coaches for. Again, just a different point of view.
    I only knew those records because people keep quoting Whitt's won loss record and I decided to compare each teams conference record since the 2011 season through today:

    ASU 37-32
    UA 30-40
    CAL 21-48
    CU 16-53
    UO 46-22
    OSU 19-50
    Stan 52-17
    UCLA 34-35
    USC 48-22
    Utah 32-38
    UW 43-26
    WSU 33-37

    not sure what this means, but ...
    Last edited by Scorcho; 11-06-2018 at 03:46 PM.

  27. #1077
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    I only knew those records because people keep quoting Whitt's won loss record and I decided to compare each teams conference record since the 2011 season through today:

    ASU 37-32
    UA 30-40
    CAL 21-48
    CU 16-53
    UO 46-22
    OSU 19-50
    Stan 52-17
    UCLA 34-35
    USC 48-22
    Utah 32-38Stan 52-17 75%
    USC 48-22 69%
    UO 46-22 67%
    UW 43-26 62%
    ASU 37-32 53%
    UCLA 34-35 49%
    WSU 33-37 47%
    Utah 32-38 45%
    CAL 21-48 43%
    UA 30-40 42%
    CU 16-53 30%
    OSU 19-50 28%

    UW 43-26
    WSU 33-37

    not sure what this means, but ...
    Well, here are the winningest teams in the PAC-12 since we joined.

    1. Stan 52-17 75%
    2. USC 48-22 69%
    3. UO 46-22 67%
    4. UW 43-26 62%
    5. ASU 37-32 53%
    6. UCLA 34-35 49%
    7. WSU 33-37 47%
    8. Utah 32-38 45%
    9. CAL 21-48 43%
    10. UA 30-40 42%
    11. CU 16-53 30%
    12. OSU 19-50 28%

    Our first 3 years were terrible as we transitioned up and in, so that should be noted. Colorado was already P5, so they don't have that excuse. We are in the middle, more or less, which is decent.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  28. #1078
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Well, here are the winningest teams in the PAC-12 since we joined.

    1. Stan 52-17 75%
    2. USC 48-22 69%
    3. UO 46-22 67%
    4. UW 43-26 62%
    5. ASU 37-32 53%
    6. UCLA 34-35 49%
    7. WSU 33-37 47%
    8. Utah 32-38 45%
    9. CAL 21-48 43%
    10. UA 30-40 42%
    11. CU 16-53 30%
    12. OSU 19-50 28%

    Our first 3 years were terrible as we transitioned up and in, so that should be noted. Colorado was already P5, so they don't have that excuse. We are in the middle, more or less, which is decent.
    Here is the breakdown for the last 5 years (with 2018 YTD):

    ASU 21-21
    UA 20-23
    Cal 14-28
    CU 12-30
    UO 24-18
    OSU 6-36
    Stan 29-13
    UCLA 19-23
    USC 30-13
    Utah 23-20
    UW 28-14
    WSU 26-17
    Last edited by Scorcho; 11-06-2018 at 04:40 PM.

  29. #1079
    This is all pretty fascinating, I think the big problem that Whittingham has with the fans is he really knows how to lose in a way that hurts the most. The Wazzu game, ASU... all painful. Even the Washington game felt like we should have been in it - in other words we didn't really get destroyed.

    And there is a history of close losses, and heartbreaking loses that snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, in either game form or eliminating us from contention. I think the fact that we can taste it frequently, that we have teams that really can and do hang with the best, and the hope that comes from those exciting runs, or the sound defeat of great competition just makes things worse.

    And the plateau LA talked about is real, the problem is it feels like it is just a minor step up to be a consistent top team in the league.

    This is life as a Utah Football fan:

    tantalus.jpg

  30. #1080
    Quote Originally Posted by UTEopia View Post
    I think I fall into Camp 7. I think I understand the risks, but being risk averse in most things, I am willing to ride this out in the hope that we get to the Rose Bowl. Up until last week I believed this would be the year, but the loss of Huntley has trampled that hope.

    Our talent and talent development put us somewhere in the middle of the PAC and that is where we have finished most years. We are talented enough to challenge and beat the big names, but not so talented that we can simply show up and beat another team of equal talent. With a few coaching exceptions, none of whom are coming to Utah, I don't see our talent level changing dramatically. As a result, I don't see the risk of change being worth it.

    Until that Rose Bowl happens, I will continue to buy my season tickets, attend the games and enjoy watching the Utes. I will try not to get my hopes up until after the final whistle on the last weekend in November. I really jinxed us by buying flights to San Jose for the Championship game after the UCLA win. Fortunately they were on Southwest, so I am not out anything.
    This has always been my view as well. I share the same frustrations* as most Ute fans (offensive problems, November struggles) but still believe that, while there are certainly better coaches than KW out there, it is improbable that our next coach is among them, especially if we were to fire or force out a highly respected and long tenured coach.

    Sure, Utah has hit a plateau, but I personally don't have a problem being patient while the team wins 8-ish games a season while we wait for that one season where things align and fall into place and we break through to the Rose Bowl. At its best Utah will never be expected to earn more than one Rose Bowl per decade (at least not by any rational neutral observer). As Utah is in its fifth year of being a legitimately competitive P5 team I'm okay to sit through another five years of 8+ win seasons before I conclude that KW is simply incapable of getting Utah there. I know it's painful that we've been so close and had some seasons where things appeared to align--this season may still be the one if Shelley turns out to be good enough.

    *I say that I share the frustrations of most Ute fans, but not all. I see a lot of people attribute Utah with the shortcoming of having one inexplicable upset or game where they "play down" to their competition every year. I always hate that because basically every team in the country has that except for Alabama, Clemson and maybe a couple other elite teams in a given year. It's part of the insanity and fun of college sports that we love--except when our team is on the wrong end of it then we are quick to conclude that our coach is a doofus. I'll step off my soapbox now.

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