The Kyle Whittingham Thread

[SoCalPat]

Three months ago, the idea of Kyle being on the hot seat was to be entertained, but not taken too seriously. Back-to-back 5-7 seasons will do that to any coach. Most coaches with lesser resumes would have been fired.

I would say since then Kyle's seat has gotten warmer. I have not been excited about the hits the program has taken as of late. We're losing mission kids, we're not making inroads in the state's top talent and our recruiting in California is no different than what it was when we were in the MWC; in fact, it may be worse (Recruiting geeks, please, make some arguments to the contrary). We just got a verbal from a kid whose lone FBS offer was San Jose State. I'm puzzled by this. If this recruit truly is all that, then we have to spend a lot of time fending off other schools -- and could lose him anyway (see: Huff, Josh; Henderson, Ryan). If he's not, he'll be there in February if we really want him. Shouldn't we be offering more polished prospects?

I don't believe I'm falling victim to the star system -- our team ranking in recruiting with relation to our conference peers has pretty much been in line with our conference finish for over a decade -- we were one of the better recruiting MWC teams, we're easily one of the bottom four recruiting teams in the Pac-12. As much as I think "recruiting news" is an oxymoron on the individual level, Rivals and Scout are pretty good with making broader assessments at the team level.

Much like Kyle delivered when everything was lined up in 2008, he's gotta bounce back when everyone is counting him out. We have never had a season under Kyle where we were being written off so far in advance. Kyle could use this to his advantage, but unlike the close calls last year, we need wins. I fully expect Kyle to be gone if we go 5-7 with Travis starting 10 or more games. If we have QB health issues again, the direction we go in becomes a much tougher call.

Fortunately, if Travis starts 12, we win a minimum of 8. I still believe in Kyle, down as I am about the aforementioned issues. If we win, we'll recruit better. But we gotta get this turned around this year. If we get to 7 total wins, I think Kyle is safe. Anything less than that, even 6-7 with a bowl loss, is really dicey. This season would have to be exceptionally cruel for us to keep Kyle without going to a bowl. If DEFCON 5 is Lane Kiffin speaking with Pat Haden at the airport, it's safe to say Kyle's status is already at DEFCON 3 and rising. But damn, this team needs a shot of good mojo. Past Travis, we haven't had any in some time.

[DrumNFeather]

I think I fall in the camp of folks (a shrinking group probably) that believes his seat is not nearly as warm as others might think. The national media still seems to really respect Kyle, and that to me is a better measure of how warm his seat might be, at least to my view, versus what the local media is pushing for or indicating. Plus, I totally buy into the money part of this thing and being "full members" along with the whole 4 full years thing he first noted when we moved to the conference.

Short of the bottom completely falling out (which I would qualify as 2-3 wins), I think we have Kyle back next season...feels like he's earned the opportunity to turn this thing around.

I agree with you that recruiting has been the toughest nut to crack here for Utah. In the past it seems like they could take a kid like this commit they just got and develop him into a nice player. These days the depth just doesn't exist on our team to be able to do that, so you're looking for more impact guys to go along with your established talents. Seems to me that they just haven't figured out how to balance going after top in-state talent, and bringing in guys from other states. I love the enroads we've made in states like Florida and Louisiana, but we need those guys to 1) Qualify, 2) Stick with the program, and 3) Breakthrough.

As for this year, the schedule again is a gauntlet, but there are some opportunities to get wins early. A competent QB beats Wazzu last year, IMO, so I'm in the camp of those that believe we need a minimum of a 3-1 start in those first four.

I agree with your comment on mojo...it felt like that was turning around with all the reports on Paul before he got hurt, so hopefully he can make it back to have an impact on the season.

[Applejack]

California recruiting has certainly not gotten worse since we joined the Pac - we used to recruit some real nobodies (Weddle, Smith, et al). It's actually pretty similar to what it used to be - we get kids that don't get offers at USC/UCLA/Stanford/Cal. In the MWC, we still had to compete with Colorado St, SDSU, SJSU for kids. Back in the day we went nuts if we beat Colorado for a recruit. Now we're pissed.

I think recruiting has fundamentally changed in a number of areas, though.

1. We don't recruit Texas as well as we used to. This is due to a lot of factors: other teams have figured out that Texas is a good place to recruit (Wisconsin, etc); we don't play at TCU every other year so we can't promise a "homecoming"; we don't have a stable of Texas kids that can welcome the new recruits.
2. We can be successful with the second tier guys in Florida and Louisiana. In the MWC we had no chance with these guys - we'd lose anyone to FAMU.
3. We have not improved in-state recruiting as much as I had hoped that we would. I thought that Pac-12 membership would really let us compete with mormon recruits who would have always chosen BYU in the past; and I think it has. I don't think we get Chase Hansen, Jake Murphy, etc if we're in the MWC. But we have been getting killled by other Pac-12 teams coming to Utah and using our old line of "we will play in front of your family and friends every other year, but you can get away from your hometown for college." I underestimated the recruiting advantage that our joining the Pac-12 would give to other Pac schools recruiting in Utah.

[DrumNFeather]

California recruiting has certainly not gotten worse since we joined the Pac - we used to recruit some real nobodies (Weddle, Smith, et al). It's actually pretty similar to what it used to be - we get kids that don't get offers at USC/UCLA/Stanford/Cal. In the MWC, we still had to compete with Colorado St, SDSU, SJSU for kids. Back in the day we went nuts if we beat Colorado for a recruit. Now we're pissed.

I think recruiting has fundamentally changed in a number of areas, though.

1. We don't recruit Texas as well as we used to. This is due to a lot of factors: other teams have figured out that Texas is a good place to recruit (Wisconsin, etc); we don't play at TCU every other year so we can't promise a "homecoming"; we don't have a stable of Texas kids that can welcome the new recruits.
2. We can be successful with the second tier guys in Florida and Louisiana. In the MWC we had no chance with these guys - we'd lose anyone to FAMU.
3. We have not improved in-state recruiting as much as I had hoped that we would. I thought that we Pac-12 membership would really let us compete with mormon recruits who would have always chosen BYU in the past; and I think it has. I don't think we get Chase Hansen, Jake Murphy, etc if we're in the MWC. But we have been getting killled by other Pac-12 teams coming to Utah and using our old line of "we will play in front of your family and friends every other year, but you can get away from your hometown for college." I underestimated the recruiting advantage that our joining the Pac-12 would give to other Pac schools recruiting in Utah.

To your final point...

I think the Gary Anderson factor is a part of that too. So now you have all the other Pac 12 schools plus Wisconsin that are actively recruiting the state of Utah, plus the BYU lifers. Makes for an interesting challenge for Whit & Co.

I seem to remember (and this may be perceived and not real) that Utah would have a kid on their radar, make an offer, and then almost immediately other programs would swoop in and offer once the kid comitted to the Utes, so it just seems harder to hang on to some of those gems that we've had in the past.

All that said, the coaches need to figure this one out. Having DE and DC here I think will help. Perhaps it is time to bring in a solid national recruiter on the defensive side of the ball as well.

[Applejack]

To your final point...

I think the Gary Anderson factor is a part of that too. So now you have all the other Pac 12 schools plus Wisconsin that are actively recruiting the state of Utah, plus the BYU lifers. Makes for an interesting challenge for Whit & Co.

I seem to remember (and this may be perceived and not real) that Utah would have a kid on their radar, make an offer, and then almost immediately other programs would swoop in and offer once the kid comitted to the Utes, so it just seems harder to hang on to some of those gems that we've had in the past.

All that said, the coaches need to figure this one out. Having DE and DC here I think will help. Perhaps it is time to bring in a solid national recruiter on the defensive side of the ball as well.

I agree on Gary Andersen. I like the guy, but Wisconsin is my second most hated team now. I want them to lose and lose badly.

[sancho]

I agree on Gary Andersen. I like the guy, but Wisconsin is my second most hated team now. I want them to lose and lose badly.

He's got it pretty easy too. Have you seen the schedules he gets to play against? They are only slightly tougher than BYUs. And they're getting easier with Maryland and Rutgers joining that watered down conference. He has 8 games built in to his schedule that the top 22 posters on this site could probably win.

[sancho]

I'm puzzled by this. If this recruit truly is all that, then we have to spend a lot of time fending off other schools -- and could lose him anyway (see: Huff, Josh; Henderson, Ryan). If he's not, he'll be there in February if we really want him. Shouldn't we be offering more polished prospects?

The idea here is to win points by being the first to offer. That QB who supposedly narrowed it down to USC and Utah (did he choose yet?) says it means a lot to him that Utah was his first offer. At the time we offered, I'm guessing he looked like any other unwanted 2 star kid.

AJ is right - we aren't going to start landing 4 star kids out of CA. We are way too far down on the totem pole for that.

As for the Utah kids, we all know that winning is the only way to keep them here. And Wisconsin losing.

[DrumNFeather]

The idea here is to win points by being the first to offer. That QB who supposedly narrowed it down to USC and Utah (did he choose yet?) says it means a lot to him that Utah was his first offer. At the time we offered, I'm guessing he looked like any other unwanted 2 star kid.

AJ is right - we aren't going to start landing 4 star kids out of CA. We are way too far down on the totem pole for that.

As for the Utah kids, we all know that winning is the only way to keep them here. And Wisconsin losing.

It also feels like we've been snake-bit a little on some of our bigger recruits. Who was the last four star that we signed that had a meaningful impact on the team? Feels like at least a few of those guys have either not panned out or have had to retire due to injury, or left due to homesickness etc...

[Applejack]

It also feels like we've been snake-bit a little on some of our bigger recruits. Who was the last four star that we signed that had a meaningful impact on the team? Feels like at least a few of those guys have either not panned out or have had to retire due to injury, or left due to homesickness etc...

I agree with snake-bittedness of our team, but that is a reflection of the lack of depth due to recruiting difficulties. Losing Kenneth Scott absolutely decimated our offense last year, but it shouldn't have. There should be other good receivers on the team.

[Hot Lunch]

I agree with snake-bittedness of our team, but that is a reflection of the lack of depth due to recruiting difficulties. Losing Kenneth Scott absolutely decimated our offense last year, but it shouldn't have. There should be other good receivers on the team.

This probably pissed me off the most about last season. Kenneth Scott is good. Really good. His injury IMO cost us at least 2 wins. He makes that big of an impact on games. The fact that we didn't have some behind He and Dres to step in and be a player blew me away.

[Applejack]

Let's take a vote. If the Utes go 5-7 this year (very likely, in my esteemed opinion), does Kyle get shown the door? Not SHOULD he be fired, but WILL he?

I say no. Hill gives him a one-year, bowl or bust ultimatum.

[Utah]

I disagree. Booker, for example, has fumbling issues. He has shown he won't fumble, so he has moved up. Whitt wanted Booker to be our #1 and has said so since January. Booker needs to hold onto the ball.

2 - recruiting offense then moving them. Disagree again. In the MWC, Whitt went after HS QB's because they were athletes. A 2 star athletic QB had 4 star safety potential. He wasn't getting 4 star safeties in the MWC. But he knew he could develop one. So he did.

As far as in the PAC-12, who have they recruited then switched? Hatfield? Hatfield was a two way player in HS and an amazing defensive player. Our WR's are deep this year. This just worked out better for Utah and Hatfield.

As far as QB issues go, it's not from a lack of effort. It's more bad luck. In the MWC, you can't have more than 1 QB. The only reason you received a QB was so he could play right away. Wynn getting hurt killed us.

After Whitt's first year in the PAC-12, he signed Wilson and Hansen. The next year was Cox, Manning, Thomas. The next year he brought in Thompson, Thompson, Isom.

So, the QB issue is more MWC team playing BCS football than QB issues. The QB "issue" is more impatience with fans than anything Whitt is doing wrong.

[U-Ute]

I disagree. Booker, for example, has fumbling issues. He has shown he won't fumble, so he has moved up. Whitt wanted Booker to be our #1 and has said so since January. Booker needs to hold onto the ball.

Fumbling is the quickest way down the depth chart for a RB, but a close second is screwing up pass protection and getting your QB killed.

Poole has been in the program for a year and, consequently, he is better at the pass protection. This is a much more difficult thing for us fans to gauge since we are not aware of the pass protection calls and what the RB's responsibility is on any given play.

[Applejack]

2 - recruiting offense then moving them. Disagree again. In the MWC, Whitt went after HS QB's because they were athletes. A 2 star athletic QB had 4 star safety potential. He wasn't getting 4 star safeties in the MWC. But he knew he could develop one. So he did.

As far as in the PAC-12, who have they recruited then switched? Hatfield? Hatfield was a two way player in HS and an amazing defensive player. Our WR's are deep this year. This just worked out better for Utah and Hatfield.

Charles Henderson (all-Lousiana WR)
Brian Blechen (QB)
Tavaris Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state RB)
Marcus Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state WR)
Brian Allen (if he really does switch to DB)
Nate Orchard (all-state WR, although everyone recruited him for defense)
Daniel Nielsen (played O-line his freshman year)
Greg Reese (TE at junior college)
Marcus Sanders-Williams (RB)
Wallace Gonzalez (did not play DE for the Astros)

[Utah]

Urban's "killer instinct" was possible because he had superior teams capable of scoring at will. Against more even competition in the SEC and Big10, Urban has had to go conservative many times. Good coaches have to be able to assess the situation. Whittingham has no issue with running up the score when he can. But when he's barely clinging to life against a better team, his QB and TE are injured, and his line can't buy more than a half second of protection, he has to consider trying to run out the clock.

I agree 100%. Whitt has played not to lose because his QB was a walkon or an underclassman. I think we see a completely different mentality this year with two JR QB's.

[USS Utah]

Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.

Redshirted in 2012
Played in ten games in 2013, mostly special teams.
Lined up at WR against Weber State.

Essentially, couldn't beat out either Fitz or Denham, who together were less than spectacular, for playing time.

http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-foo...en_796843.html

[U-Ute]

Nebraska reported to have met with Kyle.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports...e-whittingham/

[chrisrenrut]

Nebraska reported to have met with Kyle.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports...e-whittingham/

But the Utah coach apparently didn’t fit all the criteria Eichorst set forth for Nebraska’s head coach like Riley did.

Or hopefully more likely, Kyle turned them down flat.

[Applejack]

Or hopefully more likely, Kyle turned them down flat.

I'm sure Kyle listened. I would. Nebraska is a great football program. If he choose to stay at Utah, it's probably because Nebraska fans are more delusional than Utah fans.

[chrisrenrut]

I'm sure Kyle listened. I would. Nebraska is a great football program. If he choose to stay at Utah, it's probably because Nebraska fans are more delusional than Utah fans.

I'm sure he listened. But my guess is that they couldn't offer him enough to make it worth it to him to uproot his family, and leave what he has built here.

[U-Ute]

This made the rounds on Twitter last night. I'll just leave it here without comment.

It starts with:

Thanks for printing the details about University of Utah football coach Kyle Whittingham's contract. Are other people as outraged as I am about this?

I'll let you read the rest.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/547083...achs-salary-is

[Utah]

Charles Henderson (all-Lousiana WR)
Brian Blechen (QB)
Tavaris Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state RB)
Marcus Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state WR)
Brian Allen (if he really does switch to DB)
Nate Orchard (all-state WR, although everyone recruited him for defense)
Daniel Nielsen (played O-line his freshman year)
Greg Reese (TE at junior college)
Marcus Sanders-Williams (RB)
Wallace Gonzalez (did not play DE for the Astros)

I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
Gonzalous - athlete.

I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.

[Applejack]

I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
Gonzalous - athlete.

I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

[USS Utah]

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.

[Applejack]

DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.

I remember!

This is the whole "Utah strategy" that MrBride started: bring in a ton of RBs and move the ones that don't pan out to defense. It's genius!

[Utah]

I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.

I don't agree with this. I think Utah has done that the last two years because of our QB. If you look at our team this year, our first year with any semblance of depth, we are much deeper and talented offensively.

Whitt's a smart man. He knows you need an offense to win in the PAC-12. He's spent the last 4 years recruiting the offense. We will see the fruit of that this year.

What we as fans needed to do was realize that we were a MWC team competing in the PAC-12 and we needed to allow Whitt time to get depth to where it needs to be. This year is the first year we are a PAC-12 team competing in the PAC-12.

The "week in, week out" saying is very real. We couldn't survive it. No mid-major can.

[Utah]

Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

No problem. I understood it as he immediately put them on defense because he hates to offense. I was just showing that the guys you mentioned we either recruited for defense or switched to get a better shot at playing time.

[Diehard Ute]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

[UBlender]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

There are others too. JR Salt was a DL when he came to Utah, redshirted and moved to OL. Sam Tevi being another. A lot of people thought Fakailoatonga would make a mean DE but he's been at TE. Among others.

[Applejack]

One going the other way

Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

Too bad about Lucky Radley leaving. That's his spot that we have to fill.

I just checked on Radley at SDSU: After two games, he has two carries for 1 yard. Oh well, he lives in San Diego.