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Thread: The Kyle Whittingham Thread

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Charles Henderson (all-Lousiana WR)
    Brian Blechen (QB)
    Tavaris Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state RB)
    Marcus Williams (played both ways in HS but was all-state WR)
    Brian Allen (if he really does switch to DB)
    Nate Orchard (all-state WR, although everyone recruited him for defense)
    Daniel Nielsen (played O-line his freshman year)
    Greg Reese (TE at junior college)
    Marcus Sanders-Williams (RB)
    Wallace Gonzalez (did not play DE for the Astros)
    I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

    Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
    Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
    I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
    Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
    Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
    Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
    Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
    Gonzalous - athlete.

    I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.
    I don't agree with this. I think Utah has done that the last two years because of our QB. If you look at our team this year, our first year with any semblance of depth, we are much deeper and talented offensively.

    Whitt's a smart man. He knows you need an offense to win in the PAC-12. He's spent the last 4 years recruiting the offense. We will see the fruit of that this year.

    What we as fans needed to do was realize that we were a MWC team competing in the PAC-12 and we needed to allow Whitt time to get depth to where it needs to be. This year is the first year we are a PAC-12 team competing in the PAC-12.

    The "week in, week out" saying is very real. We couldn't survive it. No mid-major can.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I agree that Whit's and McBride's teams both have been maddening at times in the 4th Quarter (ASU 2013 anyone?). But that's because the teams are always built on defense first, offense dead last. I think that sort of team plays to Utah's recruiting strengths, but it also gives me gray hairs.
    Before Mac, Fassell put offense first and defense dead last, and Utah lost a lot of high scoring shoot outs.

    By going to an up tempo offense and bringing in DC, it does at least appear that Whit is trying to get away from the so called "playing not to lose" philosophy.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  4. #34
    Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
    Redshirted in 2012
    Played in ten games in 2013, mostly special teams.
    Lined up at WR against Weber State.

    Essentially, couldn't beat out either Fitz or Denham, who together were less than spectacular, for playing time.

    http://www.utahutes.com/sports/m-foo...en_796843.html
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    I think your stretching a little here. Those names you named would have been moved by most coaches.

    Henderson was given a shot at WR and has a better chance to play at DB.
    Blechen was recruited for defense. Blechen is that 2 star QB with 4 star safety potential.
    I'm not going to discuss the two way players. If their highest ceiling was on defense then good for Whitt putting them there.
    Allen has been given a shot at receiver. Isn't good enough. Might get more playing time at DB.
    Neilson is too big for OL. Not good enough to play on offense. So, he gets a shot at defense.
    Reese - given a shot at offense. Not good enough.
    Sanders-Williams - not good enough. Will see the field quicker at LB this year (wouldn't shock me if he moves back to RB next year)
    Gonzalous - athlete.

    I don't think your list proves anything. A lot of those kids were on offense, weren't good enough, so they moved to where they could play quicker, which goes against your theory that Whitt recruits for defense only. Our offense is much, much, much deeper than our defense this year.
    Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).
    No problem. I understood it as he immediately put them on defense because he hates to offense. I was just showing that the guys you mentioned we either recruited for defense or switched to get a better shot at playing time.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Sorry, you asked for a list of players we recruited who switched from offense to defense. Isn't that what we're talking about? Ronnie did it (hello DeShawn Crockett!), Whit does it. Nothing to be defensive about (boo-yah!).
    DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by USS Utah View Post
    DeShawn Crockett, despite being undersized, got his shot in the 2000 opener, and it was obvious that he was not the answer at RB. There is no reasonable argument that he should have started over Tate and Hunter.
    I remember!

    This is the whole "Utah strategy" that MrBride started: bring in a ton of RBs and move the ones that don't pan out to defense. It's genius!

  9. #39
    One going the other way

    Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    One going the other way

    Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB
    That's interesting. Injuries at RB?

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    One going the other way

    Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB
    There are others too. JR Salt was a DL when he came to Utah, redshirted and moved to OL. Sam Tevi being another. A lot of people thought Fakailoatonga would make a mean DE but he's been at TE. Among others.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    That's interesting. Injuries at RB?
    RB has gotten sneakily thin. We have three guys expected to contribute a lot and then DreVian Young looks like a good player for the future. But that's it. If we had a 2-3 injuries we'd be in trouble.

  13. #43
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    Kyle has dropped to 71st in the Hot Seat Rankings at coacheshotseat.com. He started the season in the 40-45 range. And four Pac-12 coaches rate as having hotter seats -- Leach and McIntyre have skyrocketed up the list, joining Dykes and Riley ahead of Kyle.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Kyle has dropped to 71st in the Hot Seat Rankings at coacheshotseat.com. He started the season in the 40-45 range. And four Pac-12 coaches rate as having hotter seats -- Leach and McIntyre have skyrocketed up the list, joining Dykes and Riley ahead of Kyle.

    Why Dykes or Riley would be on any kind of hot seat at the moment is beyond me.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    Why Dykes or Riley would be on any kind of hot seat at the moment is beyond me.
    Dykes has dropped some 10-15 spots, if memory serves. Still on the hot seat, but a 4-1 start (very possible) has him safe off of it. Riley isn't even on the hot seat and is listed as "Safe For Now."

  16. #46
    This goes here, maybe. From the mailbag:

    How about a Utah-Cal centric mailbag this week? As always, follow me on Twitter.

    Ver in SLC writes: Kyle Whittingham is 11-1 in non-conference and bowl games since joining the Pac-12. Going back to include the MWC days, he is 34-8 all time. Granted, the Pac is a TOUGH league, and Utah's struggles are proving that out, but could Whitt's coaching niche be more about knowing how to beat unfamiliar opponents and once a good team gets used to playing the Utes, they figure them out? After all, as the Pac schools get used to playing them each year the win totals go down. Even the win against Stanford was the first meeting of the teams since joining.

    Kevin Gemmell: I see your point. But on the flip side, it’s kind of hard to “figure a team out” when they have had four offensive coordinators in three years. Just sayin’.

    The simple fact is Utah hasn’t had consistency at quarterback – be it performance or injury related – since 2008. That they’ve managed to go 38-25 with patchwork quarterback play during that stretch is actually quite impressive. Granted, 20 of those wins came when they were still in the Mountain West.

    To your question, the Utes are 9-18 in Pac-12 play since joining the league in 2011. The conference wins have declined each year, from four wins in ’11, three in ’12 and two in ’13. Most of the quarterback injuries occurred early in the season, thus leaving the Utes in scramble mode the rest of the time.

    Also, when push comes to shove, coaching … schemes … spread vs. pro-style … a lot of that is secondary. It’s important, for sure. But football is football. And a huge chunk of it comes down to personnel. If you have the personnel to compete, you’re going to compete. Even the most brilliant of coaches can’t overcome a lack of personnel.

    What we’re starting to see from Utah is recruiting and player development to the point where it can be a competitive Pac-12 team. The Utes are recruiting faster players, stronger players and filling out depth.

    I was actually talking to Kyle Whittingham about this this morning for another story slated for next week. The Utes are better than they were in 2010. But so is the rest of the league. It’s relative. The question is are they better to the point where they can win a few more conference games?

    I think so – if they can stay healthy.
    “It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  17. #47
    This next week is big. Utah, ND and Michigan all performed similarly vs mid-major/FCS opponents. Yet ND destroyed Michigan.

    Good yardstick for our team this weekend.

  18. #48
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    This goes here, maybe. From the mailbag:

    [/FONT][/COLOR]
    Gemmell actually makes a pretty compelling case. (BTW, the question reads like it came from a BYU fan, but maybe it was just an educated Kyle detractor.) Utah's lackluster PAC-12 performance so far really does seem to be the result of bad coaching decisions; rotten luck with injuries and QB situations that either didn't work out, or that never happened because of recruiting near-misses; increasingly better PAC competition; and lack of PAC-quality depth. All of those things have been addressed and/or are improving. The luck part ought to improve just by virtue of the law of averages. So it will be interesting to see whether the needle finally moves in the other direction this season. I still love our conference situation and would rather have these challenges than be back where we were.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Gemmell actually makes a pretty compelling case. (BTW, the question reads like it came from a BYU fan, but maybe it was just an educated Kyle detractor.) Utah's lackluster PAC-12 performance so far really does seem to be the result of bad coaching decisions; rotten luck with injuries and QB situations that either didn't work out, or that never happened because of recruiting near-misses; increasingly better PAC competition; and lack of PAC-quality depth. All of those things have been addressed and/or are improving. The luck part ought to improve just by virtue of the law of averages. So it will be interesting to see whether the needle finally moves in the other direction this season. I still love our conference situation and would rather have these challenges than be back where we were.
    It all comes down to the QB. What happens if Wynn is never injured? We win the south our first year. Probably win 10+ our second. Then a big, healthy confident Wilson takes over.

    Or, what if Hansen never goes on a mission? We go to bowls the last two years.

    You can't win with a walkon QB in this league. We proved that. The good news is, our walkon is now our fifth string QB.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    One going the other way

    Per his own twitter (via Piper) Monte Seabrook has been moved to RB
    Too bad about Lucky Radley leaving. That's his spot that we have to fill.

    I just checked on Radley at SDSU: After two games, he has two carries for 1 yard. Oh well, he lives in San Diego.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post

    Ways in which Whittingham is like McBride:

    - Recruit offensive players for defense. Ronny Mac should have patented this move. It seemed like he just recruited running backs, and then flipped most of them to DB or LB. Domo is Whit's latest greatest flip.
    Brady Hoke should have taken a page from this playbook. Devin Gardner looks like he would make a great strong safety.

  22. #52
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

    For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

    He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

    The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

    The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

    Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

    For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

    He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

    The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

    The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

    Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)
    Any zoob could see that Whitt hasn't had a PAC-12 team until this fall. Any zoob would have noticed that when he has talent, he is a pretty good coach. And any zoob would assume that now that Whitt has talent, he would be successful.

    It's ok to be pissed I've been right. What do I know? I'm surprised you haven't called me out saying that Wilson is a top half of the PAC-12 QB. That's your only hope right now. That Wilson sucks it up.

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It's still early in the 2014 season but I must admit I am impressed. Kyle has shown resourcefulness and adaptability beyond my expectations.

    For example, he's pulled in talent with an immediate impact from unlikely places: Look at what Tevin Carter, Kaelin Clay, Gionni Paul, Tim Patrick and Kendal Thompson did in the Michigan game. Those guys weren't wearing Utah jerseys 12 months ago.

    He brought in Dave Christensen and it seems that for the first time since the Ludwig era we have an offensive philosophy that works.

    The O-line is better, if not where it needs to be.

    The defense once again looks like a Ute defense.

    Yes, he had help in all these efforts, but he's the captain of the ship. I hope this continues, we see 8 wins, Kyle gets renewed, and he stays on as the Utah coach until retirement after a successful career. I hope he becomes our LaVell.(without a dropoff in program success after he retires)
    Minor quibble. Paul was on campus a year ago, and the coaches even had hope he'd be eligible immediately, what with everything going on at Miami with the sanctions and what not.

    As important as Travis is to the offense, we needed Gionni to play this year for the defense to carry the 8-win water. I'm not putting any ceiling on this team right now.

  25. #55
    I was musing this morning about the vocal minority wanted Kyle gone last season and kept talking about the inevitability of the change through the whole off-season. One of the counterpoints people like me always bring up is "Who are we going to get that will be better?" Well, two of the names most commonly brought up by that crowd were Tim DeRuyter and Matt Wells. I'm so glad that crowd has no influence as both of those coaches are looking in a bad way right now. (It's also a reminder of why hiring the successful mid-major coach or the hot assistant is always a dicey proposition, as Utah basketball has found out firsthand).

    One other note, after finally getting to watch the last 7:51 online last night I listened to Kyle's post-game interview with the ABC/ESPN crew. Maybe he was just a little punchy because of the unique situation but I thought Kyle had a little bit of a swagger to him that he doesn't usually show on game day. I remember seeing some of that in 2008. I'm not saying this team is on that level but it made me think we have a coach that knows he's got some nice things coming together and things are looking up.

  26. #56
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    Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

    At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

    At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.
    It's fluid. We haven't even played a conference game yet.

    If we reel off 5 straight conference losses like we did last year, the temperature will again rise. Even if we go 3-6 in conference, that will get us to a bowl game, which will deflect some heat. But the fact that we still struggle well below .500 in conference will be lingering out there.
    I saw a door that said exit only. So I entered through it and went up to the guy working there and said "I have good news. You have severely underestimated that door over there. By like a hundred percent." Demetri Marti

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    It's fluid. We haven't even played a conference game yet.

    If we reel off 5 straight conference losses like we did last year, the temperature will again rise. Even if we go 3-6 in conference, that will get us to a bowl game, which will deflect some heat. But the fact that we still struggle well below .500 in conference will be lingering out there.
    KW just needs to get to next year. Next year the schedule sets up for us really nicely, assuming we can replace our safeties.

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPat View Post
    Coacheshotseat.com has noticed the job Kyle has done. He's plummeted all the way to 98th, sixth in the Pac-12.

    At risk of jinxing a good thing, we're gonna have to lock this thread pretty soon.
    Too late?

  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homer Crimson View Post
    Too late?
    Sweet Louise, I don't believe anything I say has an outcome on future events, but this is getting me to at least think about it.

    Anyway, Kyle in one-possession games since joining the Pac-12:

    2011: 2-2*

    2012: 2-2

    2013: 4-3

    2014: 0-1

    Total: 8-8

    Caveats: Five of those 8 wins came against BYU, Utah State and Colorado. A sixth came in our bowl win vs. Georgia Tech. Additionally, one of the losses was 2011 USC, which officially was a 9-point loss, but was a one-possession game the final time we touched the ball. Even if you eliminate that game from Kyle's record, he's 2-7 against non-last place teams in one-possession games in Pac-12 play. That's not cutting it.

    FWIW, McBride's record in one-possession games his last three years was 5-12, and several of those losses were against teams perceived to be a huge step up in class (roadies at Arizona and Michigan 2002, No. 8 BYU in 2001 stand out). It was when he started losing big leads (AFA and UNM 2002) that support emptied out.

    2013 ASU and 2014 WSU were both one-point losses, but I think we can all tell that's the only thing those games have in common as they pertain to support for Kyle and optimism going forward.

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