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Thread: A Believer Thread

  1. #601
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #602
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I thought this reflected an interesting controversy within the evangelical world.

    Whither Evangelical Purity Culture? Thoughts on the Legacy of a Lost Pastor

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...a-lost-pastor/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #603

    Mathematical Challenges to Darwin’s Theory of Evolution

    with Berlinski, Meyer, and Gelernter


  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post

    In my heaven the 1998 NCAA Championship game will end with the Utes winning.

  5. #605
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    https://www.ksl.com/article/46633046...d-of-the-month

    Looking forward to these. The LDS Bible ones were so well done.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    Looking forward to these. The LDS Bible ones were so well done.
    I didn't know about these. I'll try to find them for our family home evenings.

  7. #607
    "It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant

  8. #608
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is well done, and a fair description of the Latter-day Saint view of the First Vision.

    http://<a href="https://youtu.be/lBv...BvxbVs7Kgc</a>

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #609
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I enjoyed this:

    SINGING WITH THE LUTHERANS
    by Garrison Keillor

    I have made fun of Lutherans for years - who wouldn't, if you lived in Minnesota? But I have also sung with Lutherans, and that is one of the main joys of life, along with hot baths and fresh sweet corn.

    We make fun of Lutherans for their blandness, their excessive calm, their fear of giving offense, their lack of speed and also for their secret fondness for macaroni and cheese. But nobody sings like they do.

    If you ask an audience in New York City, a relatively Lutheranless place, to sing along on the chorus of 'Michael Row the Boat Ashore', they will look daggers at you as if you had asked them to strip to their underwear. But if you do this among Lutherans they'll smile and row that boat ashore and up on the beach! And down the road!

    Lutherans are bred from childhood to sing in four-part harmony. It's a talent that comes from sitting on the lap of someone singing alto or tenor or bass and hearing the harmonic intervals by putting your little head against that person's rib cage. It's natural for Lutherans to sing in harmony. We're too modest to be soloists, too worldly to sing in unison. When you're singing in the key of C and you slide into the A7th and D7th chords, all two hundred of you, it's an emotionally fulfilling moment.

    I once sang the bass line of Children of the Heavenly Father in a room with about three thousand Lutherans in it; and when we finished, we all had tears in our eyes, partly from the promise that God will not forsake us, partly from the proximity of all those lovely voices. By our joining in harmony, we somehow promise that we will not forsake each other.

    I do believe this: These Lutherans are the sort of people you could call up when you're in deep distress. If you're dying, they'll comfort you. If you're lonely, they'll talk to you. And if you're hungry, they'll give you tuna salad!

    The following list was compiled by a 20th century Lutheran who, observing other Lutherans, wrote down exactly what he saw or heard:

    1. Lutherans believe in prayer, but would practically die if asked to pray out loud.

    2. Lutherans like to sing, except when confronted with a new hymn or a hymn with more than four stanzas.

    3. Lutherans believe their pastors will visit them in the hospital, even if they don't notify them that they are there.

    4. Lutherans usually follow the official liturgy and will feel it is their way of suffering for their sins.

    5. Lutherans believe in miracles and even expect miracles, especially during their stewardship visitation programs or when passing the plate.

    6. Lutherans feel that applauding for their children's choirs would make the kids too proud and conceited.

    7. Lutherans think that the Bible forbids them from crossing the aisle while passing the peace.

    8. Lutherans drink coffee as if it were the Third Sacrament.

    9. Some Lutherans still believe that an ELCA bride and an LC-MS groom make for a mixed marriage. (For those of you who are not Lutherans, ELCA is Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and LC-MS is Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, two different divisions of the same Protestant religion. And when and where I grew up in Minnesota, intermarriage between the two was about as popular as Lutherans and Catholics marrying.)

    10. Lutherans feel guilty for not staying to clean up after their own wedding reception in the Fellowship Hall.

    11. Lutherans are willing to pay up to one dollar for a meal at church.

    12. Lutherans think that Garrison Keillor stories are totally factual.

    13. Lutherans still serve Jell-O in the proper liturgical color of the season and think that peas in a tuna noodle casserole add a little too much color.

    14. Lutherans believe that it is OK to poke fun at themselves and never take themselves too seriously.

    And finally, you know you're a Lutheran when:

    *It's 100 degrees, with 90% humidity, and you still have coffee after the service;

    *You hear something really funny during the sermon and smile as loudly as you can;

    *Donuts are a line item in the church budget, just like coffee;

    *The communion cabinet is open to all, but the coffee cabinet is locked up tight;

    *When you watch a 'Star Wars' movie and they say, 'May the Force be with you', you respond, 'and also with you';

    *And lastly, it takes 15 minutes to say, 'Good bye'.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    6. Lutherans feel that applauding for their children's choirs would make the kids too proud and conceited
    This one bugs me about Mormon's too. We have amazing musical talent in our ward, and when they perform or even when the kids sing their hearts out, it feels hollow not to be able to show some sign of our appreciation.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    This one bugs me about Mormon's too. We have amazing musical talent in our ward, and when they perform or even when the kids sing their hearts out, it feels hollow not to be able to show some sign of our appreciation.
    Do ASL applause. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqFeKj6awhU

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    If done in church, I think you'd also have to loudly proclaim "hallelujah" or "amen".
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  13. #613
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about intelligent design, but these seem like pretty interesting numbers.


    https://youtu.be/EE76nwimuT0

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #614
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Hmmm. This should be interesting.

    New General Handbook for Church Leaders and Members to Be Published in February

    http://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist....-february-2020
    https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist...-february-2020

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  15. #615
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    this ward should be given special permission to treat visitors as poorly as they can possibly be treated

    https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow/stat...73998646288385

    if I were bishop of this ward it would be extremely difficult for me to welcome them. I'd insist they weren't allowed to attend.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    this ward should be given special permission to treat visitors as poorly as they can possibly be treated

    https://twitter.com/NateNewsNow/stat...73998646288385

    if I were bishop of this ward it would be extremely difficult for me to welcome them. I'd insist they weren't allowed to attend.
    I don't know who these people are. Why are we supposed to treat them poorly?

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't know who these people are. Why are we supposed to treat them poorly?
    They are the recently married coupe from Idaho Falls who can’t or won’t provide any information about their two missing children. Also, both of their spouses dies recently, and they married each other very shortly after.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    They are the recently married coupe from Idaho Falls who can’t or won’t provide any information about their two missing children. Also, both of their spouses dies recently, and they married each other very shortly after.
    That sounds horrible.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by chrisrenrut View Post
    They are the recently married coupe from Idaho Falls who can’t or won’t provide any information about their two missing children. Also, both of their spouses dies recently, and they married each other very shortly after.
    Let’s get a bit more specific.

    July 2019 Lori’s husband is shot and killed by her brother Alex Cox who claims self defense, case is still open.

    September 2019 - Last time anyone has contact with Lori’s two children

    October 2019 - Chad’s wife dies in Idaho and is buried in Utah county. 2 weeks later Chad and Lori marry.

    November 2019 - Police in Idaho go to Chad and Lori’s home to conduct a welfare check on the youngest child. They tell police the child is with friends In Arizona. Police are able to prove this is not true and return the next day. Lori and Chad have moved and are not at the house when police arrive.

    December 2019 - Alex Cox dies at his home, case is still open

    Lori and Chad are later found in Hawaii.

    Both Lori and Chad are known to believe the second coming is near.


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  20. #620
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    Let’s get a bit more specific.

    July 2019 Lori’s husband is shot and killed by her brother Alex Cox who claims self defense, case is still open.

    September 2019 - Last time anyone has contact with Lori’s two children

    October 2019 - Chad’s wife dies in Idaho and is buried in Utah county. 2 weeks later Chad and Lori marry.

    November 2019 - Police in Idaho go to Chad and Lori’s home to conduct a welfare check on the youngest child. They tell police the child is with friends In Arizona. Police are able to prove this is not true and return the next day. Lori and Chad have moved and are not at the house when police arrive.

    December 2019 - Alex Cox dies at his home, case is still open

    Lori and Chad are later found in Hawaii.

    Both Lori and Chad are known to believe the second coming is near.
    And you think this is a suspicious timeline?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #621
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    the last few weeks they have been attending an LDS Ward in Maui, they informed the Bishop of the Maui ward that the press is one sided and they're only getting one side of the story. If I attended that ward, I'd find it impossible not to confront them. "Your welcome to attend here, once you've complied with the court order." The safety of your children overrides your freedom to worship.

  22. #622
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    the last few weeks they have been attending an LDS Ward in Maui, they informed the Bishop of the Maui ward that the press is one sided and they're only getting one side of the story. If I attended that ward, I'd find it impossible not to confront them. "Your welcome to attend here, once you've complied with the court order." The safety of your children overrides your freedom to worship.
    It was their marriage 2 weeks after his wife died that got me.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #623
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    It was their marriage 2 weeks after his wife died that got me.
    Before her death, he claimed to have a premonition that she was going to die soon. When she died he refused an autopsy. I didn’t even know that was a possibility?

  24. #624
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    Before her death, he claimed to have a premonition that she was going to die soon. When she died he refused an autopsy. I didn’t even know that was a possibility?
    In most states certain deaths are coroner's cases and no one has any say in whether or not there will be an autopsy -- there's just going to be one. But I don't know the relevant law in Utah or the facts surrounding her death.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #625
    I’ve been listening to Helter Skelter, the book by the prosecutor of the Manson family killings. These doomsday cults twist their brains into thinking anything they do is God’s will, including stealing and killing other people. It was really interesting to hear Charlie’s take on Revelation chapter 9. He interpreted it as the Beatles were the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse, their White Album was all prophesies and messages about Helter Skelter, the Black race rising up against the Caucasian’s. They would take shelter in an underground abyss in Death Valley, and build their progeny up to 144,000, then come retake power from the Black race. Spoiler alert- they justified killing inhabitants of 2 houses to kick off the racial war.

    Makes me wonder what justification these two wackos likely came up with to kill their spouses and kids.
    Last edited by chrisrenrut; 02-13-2020 at 09:17 AM.
    “To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.

  26. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    In most states certain deaths are coroner's cases and no one has any say in whether or not there will be an autopsy -- there's just going to be one. But I don't know the relevant law in Utah or the facts surrounding her death.
    She died in Idaho

    But the sheriff has said there was nothing suspicious at the time so no autopsy was done, but then it became suspicious so they exhumed her body in Utah.

    In Utah any unattended death law enforcement responds and investigates. But we also call the medical examiner who 9 times out of 10 takes custody of the body.

    The only time an autopsy isn’t done is if there is zero indication of foul play and the individual has been seen by a doctor in the last 30 days and the doctor is contacted and is comfortable signing the death certificate.

  27. #627
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    She died in Idaho

    But the sheriff has said there was nothing suspicious at the time so no autopsy was done, but then it became suspicious so they exhumed her body in Utah.

    In Utah any unattended death law enforcement responds and investigates. But we also call the medical examiner who 9 times out of 10 takes custody of the body.

    The only time an autopsy isn’t done is if there is zero indication of foul play and the individual has been seen by a doctor in the last 30 days and the doctor is contacted and is comfortable signing the death certificate.
    my mom died at a young age in her sleep in Utah, and they required an autopsy. My dad had no say it in it, but wanted to know why she passed, so it wasn't an issue. I just assumed that if there were mysterious reasons behind your death that it was mandatory? I think it should be.

  28. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by Scorcho View Post
    my mom died at a young age in her sleep in Utah, and they required an autopsy. My dad had no say it in it, but wanted to know why she passed, so it wasn't an issue. I just assumed that if there were mysterious reasons behind your death that it was mandatory? I think it should be.
    It’s all up to to the medical examiner. They have an investigator respond to the scene and make that call.


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  29. #629
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    this story was a 2 hour episode of Dateline with Keith Morrison last night. Thay mentioned it might be the most bizarre story of the last 25 years of Dateline.

  30. #630
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The new Church Handbook of Instructions is out in digital format — which apparently will always be the format now. It’s titled “General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, and replaces both Handbook 1 (for stake presidents and bishops) and Handbook 2 (for all other leaders).

    https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist...neral-handbook

    This change caught my eye, and I really like it:

    32: Repentance and Church Membership Councils

    This chapter (formerly known as “Church Discipline”) has significant revisions. It guides leaders in a more sequential way through key decisions and actions necessary to help people repent of a serious sin. The chapter also focuses on how to help protect others from those who pose a physical or spiritual threat.

    Some key terminology has changed. Disciplinary councils are now called “membership councils.” As before, these councils are an expression of love, hope and concern, designed to help Latter-day Saints through their repentance process. Also, instead of being “disfellowshipped,” members are given “formal membership restrictions.” And excommunication is now labeled a “withdrawal of membership.”

    “The idea behind these terminology changes is to ensure that we understand that when we make a mistake in our life the Lord is always extending His arms of mercy,” said Sister Aburto.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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