Given Coach Whitt's penchant for playing it safe with a lead, seems like he'd give one as good of a chance of a dissenting vote in a Court of Love, as any.Originally Posted by Rocker Ute
Given Coach Whitt's penchant for playing it safe with a lead, seems like he'd give one as good of a chance of a dissenting vote in a Court of Love, as any.
Stand by. I'll be back with answers as soon as I come back down from the mountain.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I wish I had the magic bullet for you. 'biq, but all I can offer is a pretty simple approach. (I was once taught the the object of all critical analysis is to simplify the complex. So I've got that going for me.) Here's how I try to do it. You'll have to ask my kids how well it has worked for them.
1. The foundation. My kids have questions, and so do I. (One of them had a polygamy question that a young Seminary teacher failed badly at answering.) I simply say that for me, the foundational claims are valid. I'm convinced of all of them: Jesus' divine "sonship" and status as redeemer of all mankind; the divinity of Joseph Smith's mission (but not of Joseph himself) -- including the First Vision, the BofM, all the angelic visitations (Moroni; John the Baptist; Peter James and John; Elijah; Moses; and the rest) and the divinity of the church today, meaning it's Christ's church and the men leading it, although imperfect, are the men He wants leading it. This is basic testimony stuff. I buy it all. I add to that my experience, e.g., the impressions my own church service have left on me and what those experiences have taught me.
2. The missing stuff. Throw into this pile learning as much as I can, from sources I trust, things like polygamy and all its facets, the priesthood ban, what is the eternal status of gays (because their marriages can't be recognized in light of stated church doctrine), and a few others. (I expect to be scratching my head about polygamy for a long, long time.)
3. The balance and reconciliation. I am so convinced of the foundational matters -- all of which can be reconciled with the missing stuff, IMO -- and so impressed by the experiential learning, that I can comfortably live with the missing stuff. In short, I'm going to be patient. I liked this very much, from the blog post I linked to earlier:
So I have a polygamy stone sitting on the ground by my wall. Incidentally, one of the stones that is already in my wall is the example of so many people who lived under polygamy. I've got ancestors who were astonishingly faithful about it and about the other aspects of life as a faithful Latter-day Saint. I know a lot about some of them and they were wonderful, giving and committed people. One great-great grandmother came across the plains as an orphan at age 12, married, at age 17, a man aged 31 who already had two wives, and had six kids with him. The kids all became awesome people. her husband was a pretty important early leader who served as president of the St. George Temple. (His portrait hangs there to this day!) After the Manifesto she was in her 70s and went to live with my great-grandmother. Her husband, by then also elderly, came to visit once a month. I think about those people all the time, and it gives me pause to see how faithfully and cheerfully she and they lived. How on earth did she do it? I am very much looking forward to meeting her someday and learning her story.An institute teacher shared this with me years ago, and it's a FANTASTIC analogy. Your testimony is like a rock wall .... Everyone is constantly building to their walls, stone by stone. And every now and then, you may stumble upon a stone and not see exactly where it fits. It may be labeled "gay marriage" or "visiting teaching" or "hymns are boring" ... that doesn't mean you abandon the wall. It means you set the stone aside and keep building with what you DO know. And as you build, you may suddenly see where that stone fits....everyone's [wall] will look completely different, and have different foundations, but all of them are still valid. It can be frustrating to feel sometimes like you're surrounded by stones you don't understand. But hang in there. You'll find their place eventually.
That's my approach. I'll know in 70-80 years how well it worked.
So like I said, it's simple. Testimony + allowing myself to have questions + patience.
StoneWall.jpg
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-08-2015 at 10:16 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Terrific stuff - both your list of three and the rock wall. Thanks to both of you. Lowell, I line up with you on all three but I've never articulated it as well as you do.
I don't think I gave enough attention to the difficult issues, which would be part of step 2. I've found the "Gospel Topics" page in the LDS.org site to be a good source for the church's official position on the topics requiring "inoculation." I wish I had known these things when I was a teen. (But there was no Internet then.) This is what is on that page right now. It allows someone to decide, on an informed and individual basis, which rocks go into the wall and which ones will have to wait.
Are Mormons Christian?
Becoming Like God
Book of Mormon and DNA Studies
Book of Mormon Translation
First Vision Accounts
Peace and Violence among 19th-Century Latter-day Saints
Plural Marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Race and the Priesthood
Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham
It works for me, anyway.
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-08-2015 at 07:56 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I'll just add one more thing.
Church for me is very much a week to week thing. That is - that's about all I can control. I can't control what goes on in SLC...or what is happening out in the bloggernacle etc. What I can control is how my interaction with my fellow ward members is, and I can control my lesson prep. If I can make someone who maybe feels uncomfortable because they have doubts feel welcome in my EQ lessons, then it's been a great week (I have, and I don't say this to brag, several members of the EQ that will only attend my lessons). If the kids I teach have something sink in, all the better. It's really the only thing I have any control over, and I've wasted a lot of time worrying about things I can't control. That's not to say those things aren't important, it's just that I know where I can have a measurable impact, and that is where I've turned my energy, if that makes sense.
Last week I taught my 11 year olds the Good Samaritan primary lesson...and given that they are at an age where bullying really comes into focus, I really emphasized the part about being kind to other people etc. After I finished, one of the kids blurted something out (not related to the lesson) and another one shot back with "you totally just ruined the spirit of the lesson." For me, that she recognized that there was a spirit there of all is a minor win, and at that age, I take 'em where I can get 'em. Like I said, it's a week to week thing for me, and that's where I put my focus.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
So ironically I guess word got out about my tech presentation I mentioned last week and I was asked to present it to another ward in my stake. This time however they wanted me to talk about what to do if someone you knew texted you inappropriate things and how to handle it. Apparently a young woman was getting texts from a boy trying to get her to sext, she refused and he had been trashing her to all of his friends. Bullying today is super fast and super intense.
So they wanted me to address that without singling her out but frankly I didn't really know the answer. I had some ideas to foster the discussion though but just kind of opened it up.
One thing that kind of shocked the adults was when I said, "Just so you know there is a term for this and sorry for being blunt and crass but it is called 'slut shaming' where people will attempt to shame women EITHER WAY for acquiescing to these demands or for not..."
What came from the kids was awesome though. They talked about sharing these problems with friends and people who cared about them for support. They talked about turning things back on the guy and sharing screen grabs of what he had done. They talked about letting people know what was happening. One guy mentioned that there were serious legal ramifications for a guy attempting to solicit and distribute such things from a minor.
But the best part was now they were all armed to help each other. I pointed out that there were 60 kids in the room all on the same team and to stand up for each other. Successful bully attempts thrive on isolation.
For me, the gospel is about now. Not to dismiss historical and doctrinal issues, but the things in the present are what matters and maybe why some of the issues mentioned by Sancho aren't on kids radars. They have enough crazy stuff to deal with in the present.
Same with that lesson I gave. I can worry about blacks and the priesthood at night, but hopefully that made it will make a difference for kids today.
I think this is a great point. It seems to me that the inoculation becomes necessary at the high school level -- 11th-12th grade. That's when kids get hit with facts they didn't know about. For example, when I was a senior in high school I learned of multiple accounts of the First Vision for the first time in my life. I heard it from a skeptic, and so the information was presented with a bias. I was confused and caught off-guard. The information in the little essay on the First Vision that's now on the church website (which I think is very reasonable and straightforward) would have been nice to know.
I wonder if at some point we should tell kids, "You're going to be hit with information about certain issues in the church. There are responses to all of them that still require an exercise of faith, but they are well-reasoned and candid. Here are those responses." Maybe those discussions are best held in the home. But not every kid has parents who can be relied on to share that information properly.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I think that this is the essence of why that SS teacher got released for using the church's essay on race and priesthood in a SS lesson. I suspect the kids came home with information the parents either didn't know, or didn't want their kids to know. They griped to the Bishop, and the next thing you know, the teacher is getting released.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
I do wonder about the real facts of that situation. It makes me suspicious of that teacher's intentions that he went to Peggy Fletcher Stack with his story. That aside, right now the church's approach to "the difficult issues" seems to be to make available the information on the church's side of the matter and let people who are interested find it. That's a reasonable approach. I would not be surprised to see a GC talk that urges parents to read that part of the website and share the information with their children, as appropriate and as they feel inspired to do so. Still, just having that info on the official church website is a big and helpful step, IMO.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
^^^ Utahby5 frontrunner for the Elder Perry vacancy ^^^
I have a 17 year old girl that is struggling with her faith. We have always been very liberal and open with her (maybe too much). I'm confident that we have done a good job raising her and that this is only a temporary phase, but this certainly isn't without some pain and long suffering. I look at some of the other parents I know that have kids the same age that have sort of forced their kids through the gospel and wonder should I have been more stern? One of the tougher things is watching her LDS friends and YW leaders reach out to her and get rejected too. Ugh.
Raising kids is a marathon, not a sprint, my friend. Hang in there. It's clear you're doing everything you can.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
You aren't on an island. Our 17 year old daughter struggles with faith as well. Doesn't give us any problems, but, for a truckload of reasons, just isn't interested in connecting with the church. There's no one way....no right way, per se.....to see this through with your child.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
This hasn't been our experience at all. The internet puts everything out there -- Journal of discourses, historical temple rites, the seedy parts of Joseph's history etc.... -- all of it is out there, and pastors teach their HS students how to challenge the LDS belief system. The church has been MIA in covering any of this with the youth. It's 100 percent up to a parent to prepare them for it.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Nah, I'd be a counterfeit apostle. Oh wait, that didn't sound right...^^^ Utahby5 frontrunner for the Elder Perry vacancy ^^^
So, the EQP unknowingly swiped my lesson on fear for this upcoming week. Any talks from last GC that you'd want to hear dissected? I thought about Elder Perry's with the "counterfeit lifestyle," but I think that would not end well.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Pres. Uchtdorf's talk on grace. The evolution of our teachings on that just in my lifetime has been fascinating to watch.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Or this:
"I should like to awaken in everyone a desire to investigate, to make an independent study of religion, and to know for themselves whether or not the teachings of the Mormon church are true. I should like to see everyone prepared to defend the religion of his or her parents, not because it was the religion of our fathers and mothers but because they have found it to be the true religion. If one approaches it with an open mind, with a desire to know the truth, and if one questions with a sincere heart what one hears from time to time, he or she will be on the road to growth and service. There are altogether too many people in the world who are willing to accept as true whatever is printed in a book or delivered from a pulpit. Their faith never goes below the surface soil of authority. I plead with everyone I meet that they may drive their faith down through that soil and get hold of the solid truth, that they may be able to withstand the winds and storm of indecision and of doubt, of opposition and persecution. Then, and only then, will we be able to defend our religion successfully. When I speak of defending our religion, I do not mean such defense as an army makes on the battlefield but the defense of a clean and upright and virtuous life lived in harmony with an intelligent belief and understanding of the gospel."
--Source: Edwin B. Firmage's "An Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown" (1988)
And: "...to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God." 2 Nephi 9:29.
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-10-2015 at 09:24 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I teach a group of 14 year olds (Our 13-14 year old group is too large for one class).
Today I skipped the recommended lessons and went with Rocker's Utes four points about technology (earlier in this thread). My class was pretty engaged they all wanted to show off about how much they knew about Snap Chat, Tinder, Facebook etc.
Based on our discussion, there appears to be an ongoing battle with youth and parents over technology. Some parents are monitoring everything while others hardly anything. There are still a couple of kids in my class that the parents haven't allowed a phone yet. I'm not sure there is a right or wrong way to do this.
We went over 4 or 5 different scenarios about what you would do if this happens. I flat out asked some of the boys and girls what would they do if someone asked for a naked personal picture. While none of them said they would take one and send it, no one considered letting their parents, bishop or YM/YW leader know either. They are just so vulnerable at that age.
I feel lucky I'm an adult facing these challenges, and not 14.
I can't wait for the dinner conversation where it comes out as "Bro. Scorcho asked me if I would ever send a naked picture to him. Or something."
Last edited by Dwight Schr-Ute; 06-14-2015 at 11:38 PM.
Glad to hear this. I'm glad people are talking to kids about this stuff. On a side note, this little last minute presentation (the YM president for the first time I presented asked me to do it just a few days before the meeting... so I was panicked about not having enough time to prepare) seems to have taken a life of its own. Word has spread through the Mormon network and I've now gotten a few calls outside my stake to do this same presentation in their wards. For now I've punted it back because you are technically supposed to get Stake Presidency approval to have someone from outside your stake to present. I don't mind doing the presentation, I just don't want it to turn into some monster, if that makes sense.
Instead I have provided my slideshow that anyone is free to use or build their own. I personally feel it will be way more effective to do it as you have, Scorcho, from someone they know and trust. So, here is the presentation if anyone else wants some ideas. It is nowhere near comprehensive, and many of the pictures are cues for me to share examples that won't make sense... but whatevs: http://prezi.com/uuox3azl-10h/?utm_c...py&rc=ex0share
Edit: I should also mention the Spiral Jetty slide, as almost no one I've presented to, adult or children knew about it, and nobody knew the details about it. The Spiral Jetty is the most famous work of art from the state of Utah. Robert Smithson in 1970 built the jetty out of black basalt rock in a remote location of the Great Salt Lake, a location he chose because of the shallow water and because there is an algae in the water there that turns the water blood red. Known for monument art, he was fascinated by the concept of entropy and decay. He wanted the jetty to eventually disappear, which it did in the early 1980s when flooding raised the level of the GSL and it was buried under water for a couple of decades. After some prolonged droughts the jetty reappeared, now coated in salt crystals.
My point in sharing that was 1. Kids need some culture, 2. Throughout existence we have all always kind of depended on entropy or things decaying and going away and we had to work hard to preserve things. But we could feel comfortable that embarrassing things from our youth would disappear. Technology today has made things just the opposite. Things don't degrade and don't disappear. 3. Somewhat against Smithson's wishes, many years later his work reappeared and the same thing can happen to you. (Side note: although one might rightfully argue that he would have been okay with what has transpired, particularly because of the change that happened to the jetty while under water).
Just realized that is a central talking point of that first principal and required explanation. There are images that are personal stories, so no point in explaining those.
Last edited by Rocker Ute; 06-14-2015 at 07:00 PM.
Same here. I was thinking about my life at 14, and remembered that was the age when I joined the cool kids club and got the newest and hippest piece of technology for my birthday; a portable cd player. To this day, my younger siblings give me grief over this. One of the special features was that it had a heat resistant lid. Darn thing skipped if you moved it at all. That was only 16 years ago. I cant imagine what me and my generation would ahve done with the modern gadgets and gizmos.
Thanks for sharing this. This was awesome to go over and its really neat that it has taken on a life of its own! Im the teachers quorum advisor and I think at some point some variation of this will be a perfect lesson!
I just passed it along to the YM president it my ward. I'll let you know if anything comes of it.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
I'm the HC adviser to our stake young women presidency and am trying to be useful to them (it's not easy, they are all dynamos and really don't need advice). I passed this along to the YW pres and we'll see what happens. Maybe we'll fly you down to present. There may be a book in your future. You could be a digital John Bytheway.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
That's not a good thing.
This is not the time to discourage Rocker. He's on the verge of EFY stardom.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
There is no emoticon to express my anger.
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