I added some info to my original post.Originally Posted by sancho
I added some info to my original post.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
My daughter got baptized yesterday, it was a good day. She hates being the center of attention so it was good for her to be it a little bit.
Following in the pattern of her deeply spiritual father and general ancestry, after she came out of the water I said to her, "How are you feeling?" She replied, "Wet."
This is just an interesting take on what mainstream Christianity thinks about Christ's activities while his body was still in the tomb.
http://religiondispatches.org/jesus-...talk-about-it/
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I don't know that it deserves its own thread, but I enjoyed GC for the most part this weekend. I don't get much into the music, but I must say that MoTab's version of 'I Believe in Christ' was pretty inspiring.
Utchdorf hit it out of the park as he usually does, and many of the other talks were solid as well. Oh sure, there's always a few moments that make you crinkle your nose, but that is to be expected.
Of course the big news came from the second session on Saturday where there were dissenting votes during the sustaining of the First Presidency. For the most part, it registers a "meh" on my scale...but I'm certain it will generate discussion. It already has.
Any highlights for anyone else?
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Did anyone hear why Richard Scott didn't talk? If Packer and Hales can talk in their condition, it makes me worry for Elder Scott.
I listened to more conference this this weekend than I normally do. I enjoyed what I heard. But the biggest highlight for me was coming home from priesthood session and watching Kentucky get beat.
Last edited by chrisrenrut; 04-06-2015 at 08:39 AM.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
I had read that the opposing votes were coming, as Im sure many did as well. I thought Pres Uchtdorf handled the situation very well, as Im sure he was aware of it. Had they managed to keep it a secret, it would have been interesting to see if it had rattled him at all. That is such a mundane task, that they often barely even give a half second for the opposing votes. I am not going to question the motives of this group as a whole. I do know, personally, ,one of the folks involved in this and I can tell you in his case, this was 100% about getting attention and a cheap thrill. As several talks pointed out, there is and needs to be room for questioning within the church. And they do call for opposing votes, so I dont really have a problem with anyone voicing their thoughts and concerns, but, at the same time, these movements attract people who are looking for attention and thrills as well. And those folks will make it more difficult for the sincere ones to be taken seriously. And this is now three sentences in a row that have started with "and".......so ill stop right here.
I can truthfully say that was the first time I had ever seen someone raise their hand to oppose in some form in a meeting.
I enjoyed the talks, although it is awfully hard to hear when you are wrestling a 3 year old and getting up to walk around with a crying infant. It was neat though, as my 3 year old would occasionally pick somehting out of one of the talks and ask us about it.
I was surprised, but very happy to hear about the new temples. I didn't expect any, so that was neat and I am happy for the people of Thailand, Haiti, and the Ivory Coast, as no doubt this is the answer to countless hours of personal and public prayer. What a blessing!!
I feel like (and this is no in depth analysis here) that in the next few years, there will be a decent amount of turnover in the Qof12. President Packer and Elder Hales look worse each time. As noted above, Elder Scott was absent. President Monson had his speaking load cut in half, as he is growing older.
Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 04-06-2015 at 08:38 AM.
I think it was part of the small groundswell in reaction to the excommunications of Dehlin and Kelly. I think this is a separate group technically, but they all recruit from the same pools for the most part.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
On facebook, there are two groups that I like to follow as conference approaches to see what they have up their sleeves.......these are "Ordain Women" and "Ordain Women Exposed" (neither of which are of any use as far as serious dialogue or efforts for change go, in my opinion, but different discussion.) OWE seemed to have found this group called "Any Opposed?" and was all over it. I had a sneaking suspicion that this person I know was involved, and so after some digging, I found out about their planned activities.
Exactly. The person I know is an avid Dehlin disciple. Though not technically involved, I can also say that KK had quite a bit to do with helping this movement along.
The dumbest thing about the "no" votes is that they were shouted out. Hey, in this church we vote by the uplifted hand!
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I was hoping Dieter would make a snide remark about not even understanding the process...but I knew he was above that, which is why he is where he is and I'm an EQ instructor.
“It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.”
Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
I thought Wixom's talk was good, but predictable (like Nielsen's). It would be interesting if someone was inspired to talk about someone who left the church, remained happy thoughout their life, and died without returning......and what as LDS we should learn from it. I know it isn't the narrative we seek during conference but it happens so often that it would be a good exercise to go through.
My wife enjoyed a talk about "dancing" or some-such. Haven't gotten to that one yet but she says she really enjoyed it.
Finally, talks about Sabbath day has always been a bit uncomfortable for me. But, this time, it didn't bother. Interesting he mentioned that he threw away his list of acceptable and not acceptable activities, then proceeded to give us a list of acceptable and not acceptable activities. Anyway, our kids have played competitive sports which requires Sunday play, so depending on the sport and season, we engage in Sunday play. I used to justify it, but, now have accepted that it is breaking the commands and counsels of the church. My wife still tries to justify it, but it's useless. I'm not certain what it says about me when I agree that I'm breaking a command as well as personal counsel from my Stake President to not play on Sunday, but, have no intention to stop. What does that say?.....I can only suppose Elder Nelson has it right. "True believers keep the Sabbath Day holy." I cannot, therefore count myself a "true believer". I will, however, because I love my wife & family, and because I still have a desire to test faith, will continue to endure till the end.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
The problem with "keeping the sabbath day holy" is where do you draw the line? Do you just sit and read scriptures all day? Really what is the difference between sitting in the house and watching movies vs playing outside vs your 6 year old's city rec soccer game?
"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
I have to admit I don't regret one bit (....yet) the time I've spent at the venues with my kids on Sundays. I've had a good number of church members, usually teachers, comment that I seem to have an unusually good relationship with my kids. And I do. For example, with my oldest, I've spent hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of one on one hours with her crisscrossing the country from the east coast to Vancouver Canada. The kind of time you just can't get with your kid any other way. Even today, as a sophomore in college, she'll call me up after every game to go over things with me, which always leads to conversations not related to softball. The same is true of the other two as well. My 13 year old will demand we watch the game together tonight. Even if I was sick and laying in bed he'd hop in and watch it with me no matter what. It's just one of our things.
I simply can't pull myself from that one on one time with my kids and my wife, and those once-in-a-lifetime experiences, regardless of the promises of keeping the sabbath holy. I've yet been able to exercise faith in that area of my life.
Having said that, I wouldn't say my kids are stellar in their church responsibilities -- no interest in scouting or the YW medallion, just mild interest in seminary. It's important to me that my kids marry in the temple as I think that's one teaching the church has absolutely nailed it -- eternal family relationships -- as well as an atonement based in compassion and inclusion. Those are the 2 testimony building blocks for me.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Seems to me even the general authorities have lines they have drawn with the sabbath. It's well documented they travel on the sabbath, and many have had occupations which they knew going in would require labor on the sabbath -- airline pilot and surgeon are 2 examples out of many.
Exodus 20:8-11King James Version (KJV)
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
That's fairly straight-forward. Anything not directed toward glorifying God cannot be considered worthy of the sabbath. So yes its true, my line, your line, their line.....there's almost always a line. My line in the sand just seems to be highlighted in talks!!
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
During my mission, the boundaries of a ward I was assigned to were redrawn. When they asked for those who were opposed to signify "by the same sign", one woman raised both her hands and shouted "I oppose!"
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
So, what say all of you of Mark Atuaia's tweet threatening anyone who opposed?
http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/fait...under-fire-for
I'd share my opinion but I'm afraid Mark would track me down and discipline me.
I think the people who got upset about that need to un-wad their knickers.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Thin skinned? Insecure? Neighborhood jerk/bully? Take your pick. It's all a sad commentary on his character.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Here is a question for the folks who know more than me (everyone):
These "Any Opposed?" folks.........are immediately stripped of their temple recommend? The guy i know is long out of the church, so he doesnt matter. But im curious, becuase that is one of the questions and they just answered it..........
Right. I should have worded it better. I assume that anyone with a TR who is seen opposing church leadership would be asked to speak with a bishop and the objection would be discussed and action taken from there. I imagine it is case by case, but Im curious.
I suppose the answer revolved around the questions around this is 1. What does it mean to sustain the leaders of the church and 2. What is the reason they opposed?
I personally believe that the major part of sustaining church leaders is doing your part to 'build the kingdom of God' through fulfilling your callings and most importantly being a Christlike person. Part of a sustaining vote is just a public manifestation and maybe a personal accounting of whether you are doing these things. So it might be argued that you could disagree with church leadership and even oppose them in a vote while still sustaining them.
Next is the reason for the opposing vote. I have a great story around an opposing vote that involves some details that I can't disclose to protect both the guilty and the innocent. But a high overview is this:
A certain public figure was called to the high council in his stake. This public figure does a number of things that bothered another stake leader including hosting and judging bikini contests, gambling etc, it is sort of part of his job. So this other stake leader goes to the stake president and explains that he doesn't think it is appropriate for a man involved in what he is to also be on the high council. The stake president considered the feedback and ended up calling him anyway. The other stake leader then went on to work with the public figure without issue, despite his voiced opposition.
Point being you can oppose and it might be for good reason which is why they give this opportunity.
If these individuals say they can't and won't work to resolve these issues, or if they have legitimate concerns shouldn't be reason to strip someone of their recommends in my humble opinion.
As for me, I'm glad they opposed. Suddenly people are considering a scripturally mandated ceremony that most people never think about.
I found this statement by Henry B. Eyring interesting and thought-provoking:
“By our sustaining vote, we make solemn promises. We promise to pray for the Lord’s servants and that He will lead and strengthen them (see D&C 93:51). We pledge that we will look for and expect to feel inspiration from God in their counsel and whenever they act in their calling (see D&C 1:38).
“That promise will need to be renewed in our hearts frequently. Your Sunday School teacher will try to teach by the Spirit, but just as you might do, your teacher may make mistakes in front of the class. You, however, can decide to listen and watch for the moments when you can feel inspiration come. In time you will notice fewer mistakes and more frequent evidence that God is sustaining that teacher.
“As we raise a hand to sustain a person, we commit to work for whatever purpose of the Lord that person is called to accomplish.”
I'm going to try to do a better job with our ward's Sunday School teachers....
A longer discussion of the subject is here.
Last edited by LA Ute; 04-08-2015 at 04:31 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
In my mind it looks something like this: Provide a certain amount of due respect, pray for the leaders that they'll seek truth and understanding, help leaders when able, be patient with leaders knowing their job is next to impossible, give them the benefit of the doubt if possible, and at minimum, hear them out. Ultimately, we rely on our own senses (read the HG) for inspiration and confirmation. I believe there's a fairly wide acceptable width of "ok" on any given question. Obviously, I'm not of any group that blindly follows the title or calling. And, if I'm wrong, those with proper stewardship will correct me and make the call as they see it. I've been denied before on the "attend sacrament and other meetings" question when I missed a number of consecutive weeks due to athletics. I lived. To his credit, he changed his mind on the topic and asked to reinterview me and gave me the recommend.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
I think it's a safe bet that at least one of the 12 won't be around next conference.
3 or 4 of them appear to be gravely ill, if I'm 92 I'm not sure I would opt for Chemo?
Probably. The current group is unusually elderly, even for the LDS church.
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
There was a long period of time where the Q12 was the same. and then from 2004-2008, five of them passed away. Since then, it has been consistent. As you guys have pointed out, we are likely approaching another 3-5 year stretch where we will see a lot of turnover.
Its always sad, because I feel like I have learned so much from these men. But at the same time, I know many of them are anxious to be reunited with their wives and other loved ones.
Church Approves Electronic Method to Submit Tithes and Other Charitable Donations
The Sunday afternoons of ward clerks and bishopric counselors are about to be improved for the better.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
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