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Thread: A Believer Thread

  1. #421
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I thought this was interesting. It is about the Adam and Eve story.

    http://www.plonialmonimormon.com/201...-adam.html?m=1


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #422
    Elder Richard G. Scott passed away this morning. (Sorry for the church talk.)

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35787105&nid...s_cid=topstory

  3. #423
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Elder Richard G. Scott passed away this morning. (Sorry for the church talk.)

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35787105&nid...s_cid=topstory
    Wow. I wonder if this means three new apostles next month?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Wow. I wonder if this means three new apostles next month?
    At the last general conference I commented to my wife that we could very easily be seeing four new apostles within a year or so, based on the observation that Elders Perry, Scott and Hale and President Packer all looked so frail and sick. I hate that this has almost proven true already.

  5. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-Ute View Post
    Elder Richard G. Scott passed away this morning. (Sorry for the church talk.)

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=35787105&nid...s_cid=topstory

    Why are you apologizing for church talk in the Religion Forum?

  6. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    He was apologizing in advance for bringing you back to the board.

  7. #427
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kccougar View Post
    Why are you apologizing for church talk in the Religion Forum?
    Joking. If you were more of a student of this board you'd get it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #428
    This is an enlightening interview with Ruth Lybbert Renlund, Elder Renlund's wife. She discusses her history, her ambitions, the challenges she faced as a working mother in the church, and talks about her independent strength. She is an orthodox believer and certainly is nuanced and unorthoprax in many ways, but to be honest I believe her life experience as a working mother is more typical of women today than the church's ideal, which leans toward stay-at-home moms. She gives voice to the challenges many of our wives have experienced over the years.

    She is a strong and smart woman, as is their daughter. They are wonderful people, and I know Dale will be a positive influence on the Post-Packer church.

    http://www.mormonwomen.com/2010/05/1...-call-me-ruth/

  9. #429
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This is an enlightening interview with Ruth Lybbert Renlund, Elder Renlund's wife. She discusses her history, her ambitions, the challenges she faced as a working mother in the church, and talks about her independent strength. She is an orthodox believer and certainly is nuanced and unorthoprax in many ways, but to be honest I believe her life experience as a working mother is more typical of women today than the church's ideal, which leans toward stay-at-home moms. She gives voice to the challenges many of our wives have experienced over the years.

    She is a strong and smart woman, as is their daughter. They are wonderful people, and I know Dale will be a positive influence on the Post-Packer church.

    http://www.mormonwomen.com/2010/05/1...-call-me-ruth/
    They also had "only" one child, which I think gives them valuable perspective, and I have heard they are registered Democrats.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    They also had "only" one child, which I think gives them valuable perspective, and I have heard they are registered Democrats.
    GASP! Do you think there are more of them among us?

  11. #431
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    GASP! Do you think there are more of them among us?
    I'm holding on to my testimony despite this news.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #432
    NWUF's 'post-Packer' comment reminds me, have I told my dad's President Packer story... also known as "How to avoid being Stake President with one simple joke"?

  13. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    NWUF's 'post-Packer' comment reminds me, have I told my dad's President Packer story... also known as "How to avoid being Stake President with one simple joke"?
    Well??? We're waiting...

  14. #434
    So they are calling a new stake president in my parents stake. For those of you unfamiliar with the process two general authorities show up and they do a bunch of interviews of people in the stake in one day to find the next guy. Somehow my dad's name makes it on the list of those to be interviewed. He had what he describes as a nice interview with the first GA and then next up he is to meet Pres Packer.

    My dad sits down with him and says hello and President Packer says, "It says here you are an attorney. What kind of attorney are you?" My dad joked, "Well I'd like to think a good one..."

    President Packer didn't even crack a smile, said, "That will be all." That was the end of the interview.

    So now you know what to say if you are ever in that position.


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  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    GASP! Do you think there are more of them among us?
    The 6.67% now have equal representation! Yes!

    In related news, my wife's aunt, whom we both know, got the position at byu. Her final interview was with Dale Renlund. She came away thoroughly impressed by him in every possible way. Her first interview was with a Packer-type, whose first question was "How does your husband feel about you applying for this position?"

  16. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    This is an enlightening interview with Ruth Lybbert Renlund, Elder Renlund's wife. She discusses her history, her ambitions, the challenges she faced as a working mother in the church, and talks about her independent strength. She is an orthodox believer and certainly is nuanced and unorthoprax in many ways, but to be honest I believe her life experience as a working mother is more typical of women today than the church's ideal, which leans toward stay-at-home moms. She gives voice to the challenges many of our wives have experienced over the years.

    She is a strong and smart woman, as is their daughter. They are wonderful people, and I know Dale will be a positive influence on the Post-Packer church.

    http://www.mormonwomen.com/2010/05/1...-call-me-ruth/

    Awesome. My wife has swam upstream in the traditional LDS culture her entire career.

    I'm reminded of one occasion I was talking with a bunch of guys in the lobby during sacrament meeting, and said my job as a stay-at-home parent was easier/less stressful than her job -- and it wasn't even close.

    The next sunday 3 ladies approached her with a "what the hell?" conversation. I guess some of boys went home and let the cat out of the bag. Great stuff.
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  17. #437
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This is interesting. I wonder how the general principles Francis states will be applied?

    Catholicism can and must change, Francis forcefully tells Italian church gathering

    http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/ca...sriclM.twitter


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #438
    Several years ago there was a service available that would send you a daily email to help you read scriptures. Basically, you told them which of the standard works you wanted to read, and how many days you wanted to finish. In turn, they would email you the correct amount to read for each day.

    I've poked around and haven't been able to find that service. Is anyone aware of such a thing?
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  19. #439
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Several years ago there was a service available that would send you a daily email to help you read scriptures. Basically, you told them which of the standard works you wanted to read, and how many days you wanted to finish. In turn, they would email you the correct amount to read for each day.

    I've poked around and haven't been able to find that service. Is anyone aware of such a thing?
    I subscribe to something called "Daily Messages." They're one or two-line quotes from GC talks. I don't recall how I signed up but I think it's on LDS.org somewhere. The scripture thing may be there too -- I used to get it as well.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #440
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eria-genetics/

    "Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins

    Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.

  21. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...eria-genetics/

    "Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins


    Based on the arm bone of a 24,000-year-old Siberian youth
    Troll.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  22. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post




    Troll.
    They are all trolls ... like climate scientists I guess lol:

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture12736.html

  23. #443
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    A Believer Thread

    "Half of disbelief in God in the world is caused by people who make religion look ugly due to their bad conduct and ignorance."

    Al-Ghazali (d. AD 1111)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by LA Ute; 01-16-2016 at 04:04 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #444
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    This should be a surprise to no one. Population genetics is an absolute mess of a science. It's like nutrition - no one really knows anything.
    This article is interesting, but it has nothing to do with the BOM. If you read even the first clause of the first sentence of the article, you'd see it's based on a 24,000 year old arm bone of a Siberian child. If you are inclined to condescend to such debates, however, you might point out that the article actually undermines BOM historicity as it provides more support for the land bridge being the sole means of migration of prehistoric peoples to the Americas. Ignore tooblue. He's a cynical troll.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  25. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    This article is interesting, but it has nothing to do with the BOM. If you read even the first clause of the first sentence of the article, you'd see it's based on a 24,000 year old arm bone of a Siberian child...
    I was going to respond, but it looked to me like tooblue was being kind of a false troll.

    Genetic anthropology is a mostly uncompleted puzzle, but as we get more pieces connected, it's a fascinating picture.

    One of our researchers, a physician from Tibet, was involved in a genetics study that found the genetic mutation that allows Tibetans to better tolerate very high elevations is one they inherited from their Denosovan ancestors, an extinct primate group like the Neanderthals.

    Polynesians, who appear to have migrated from Formosa (Taiwan) to New Zealand, and then across the Pacific, are thought to be about 15% Denosovan, which might explain some of their unusual physical capabilities, such as pain tolerance and ability to deal with hot & cold extremes. As a group, they also withstood extreme environmental pressure, ie, crossing thousands of miles in canoes with limited supplies of food, which explains their low metabolism and tendency toward diabetes, today.

    Here's a curveball on BOM historicity: it's no secret the BOM has been suffering from a lack of evidence that the events occurred when they should have.

    What if the BOM is to be read and understood more like some of the stories from the Old Testament? Does a lack of historicity invalidate the "truths" in the BOM?

    This would be an even bigger change in LDS thought than the ongoing evolution of understanding and acceptances of gays.

    Relatively few Christians - or Jews - believe people co-existed with dinosaurs, the 6 day earth creation timeline, the great flood, etc. But these were widely considered literal, quite recently.

  26. #446
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    I was going to respond, but it looked to me like tooblue was being kind of a false troll.

    Genetic anthropology is a mostly uncompleted puzzle, but as we get more pieces connected, it's a fascinating picture.

    One of our researchers, a physician from Tibet, was involved in a genetics study that found the genetic mutation that allows Tibetans to better tolerate very high elevations is one they inherited from their Denosovan ancestors, an extinct primate group like the Neanderthals.

    Polynesians, who appear to have migrated from Formosa (Taiwan) to New Zealand, and then across the Pacific, are thought to be about 15% Denosovan, which might explain some of their unusual physical capabilities, such as pain tolerance and ability to deal with hot & cold extremes. As a group, they also withstood extreme environmental pressure, ie, crossing thousands of miles in canoes with limited supplies of food, which explains their low metabolism and tendency toward diabetes, today.

    Here's a curveball on BOM historicity: it's no secret the BOM has been suffering from a lack of evidence that the events occurred when they should have.

    What if the BOM is to be read and understood more like some of the stories from the Old Testament? Does a lack of historicity invalidate the "truths" in the BOM?

    This would be an even bigger change in LDS thought than the ongoing evolution of understanding and acceptances of gays.

    Relatively few Christians - or Jews - believe people co-existed with dinosaurs, the 6 day earth creation timeline, the great flood, etc. But these were widely considered literal, quite recently.
    Allegorical interpretation is deeply personal and I have no quibble with it. But there are material distinctions between the OT and the BOM. For one thing, there was a Ramses, there were Egyptians, same for Assyrians, etc., even if David or Goliath were more akin to Achilles and Hector. There is archeological and corroborative contemporaneous documentary evidence. We've also found scrolls with the OT that are over 2,000 years old, among the Dead Sea scrolls. The OT is a 3,000+ year old phenomenon, the BOM is a nineteenth century phenomenon, if you think science matters. The OT is also a magnificent work of literature, the BOM is not. But I really don't enjoy nor do I find interesting these types of discussions. We're all educated people here and the foregoing just states the obvious. We run out of things to say pretty fast.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  27. #447
    Frankly I wish the LDS church would just do what the Community of Christ has done, and make a statement that the BOM is not an historical document, but that it can and should still be inspiring and meaningful on a personal level.

  28. #448
    Isn't that kind of like saying that you wish every store was The Gap?


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  29. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    Isn't that kind of like saying that you wish every store was The Gap?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    No, it more more of a request for honesty.

    I don't need somebody constantly telling me we are eating at The New Yorker or Forage, when I am sitting in the Play Place surrounded by screaming kids, eating a McNugget, and can see the Golden Arches sign outside.

  30. #450
    Here is a quick article written by a friend from high school, discussing cultural stereotypes to avoid.

    http://ldsmag.com/30-questions-nobod...ed-my-husband/

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