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Thread: A Believer Thread

  1. #61
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Interesting, if somewhat vanilla, summary of a Bob Millett talk in Newport Beach few days ago.

    Millet urges Christians to look for common beliefs

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #62
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Faith in Every Footstep

    1. A marvelous work has begun to come forth among all the children of men.

    O ye that embark in the service of God, give heart, mind, and strength unto him;

    For prophets have spoken and angels have come to lift the world from sin,

    That Christ may reign over all the earth and bless his gathered kin.


    Chorus



    2. Those marvelous Saints who embraced this great work and shared it in lands far and near;

    Who gave all their heart, mind, and strength to the Lord with wisdom and vision so clear;

    Now stand as examples of virtue and faith, of souls prepared to hear,

    Of knowledge sure, born of humble heart, and love that banished fear.


    Chorus



    3. If we now desire to assist in this work and thrust in our sickle with might;

    If we will embark in the service of God and harvest in fields that are white;

    Our souls may receive the salvation of God—the fulness of his light,

    That we may stand, free of sin and blame, God’s glory in our sight.




    Chorus:


    With faith in every footstep, we follow Christ, the Lord;

    And filled with hope through his pure love, we sing with one accord.



    Copyright © 1996 LDS. All rights reserved. This song may be copied for incidental, noncommercial home or church use. This notice must be included on each copy made.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-24-2013 at 02:51 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #63
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Now who's trolling? His own thread, no less!

  5. #65
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    Now who's trolling? His own thread, no less!
    En garde! How is an interesting little video, in a thread expressly set up for believers, stating well-known apologetic arguments, trolling? You're not suggesting that I am trying to inflame non-believer lurkers, are you?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    En garde! How is an interesting little video, in a thread expressly set up for believers, stating well-known apologetic arguments, trolling? You're not suggesting that I am trying to inflame non-believer lurkers, are you?
    I doubt that your fish (SU) will watch that video. He should, though. It's a good one.

  7. #67
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I doubt that your fish (SU) will watch that video. He should, though. It's a good one.
    I found it interesting and compelling, but only in the context that belief in God can have a rational foundation. I'm not big on trying to prove religious beliefs.

    Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish. (Austin Farrer on C. S. Lewis.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I found it interesting and compelling, but only in the context that belief in God can have a rational foundation. I'm not big on trying to prove religious beliefs.
    I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.

  9. #69
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.
    I'm just saying it was an interesting way to say it's not irrational to believe in God. And it isn't. If you disagree with me on this I shall have no choice but to put an ice cube down your neck if you come to the USC game.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I found it less compelling, I guess. How would you sum up the rational foundation argument? To me it seemed that the argument was "matter had to come from somewhere, so God must have created it." Essentially it is a why-is-there-something-and-not-nothing-argument. But that obviously doesn't provide a rational basis for belief in God, it just fills in a gap.
    Yeah that video is just a restatement of the same illogical, self-refuting argument that comes up in most any discussion of god (along with some shameless appeal to authority and some elementary misunderstanding of basic terminology).

    If everything has a cause, then god needs a cause; sorry. If god doesn't need a cause, then not everything needs a cause. "God" is nothing but a cheap rhetorical trick in this argument.

  11. #71
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Nice video, shown in the General Young Women Meeting a couple of weeks ago.

    https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch...=2257665547001

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #72
    Caged Wisdom Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Interesting, if somewhat vanilla, summary of a Bob Millett talk in Newport Beach few days ago.

    Millet urges Christians to look for common beliefs
    Thanks for the reminder of why I can't stand Bob Millet. I can't think of anyone who has worked harder to water down Mormon doctrine in an attempt to curry favor with people whose opinions are of little interest anyway.

  13. #73
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tic View Post
    Thanks for the reminder of why I can't stand Bob Millet. I can't think of anyone who has worked harder to water down Mormon doctrine in an attempt to curry favor with people whose opinions are of little interest anyway.
    I am not a student of Bob Millet's work so am somewhat neutral about it. What has he done that has bugged you? I ask in peace, because all I know is that he's done a lot of outreach to evangelical Christians, most of whom seem pretty impervious to his good will gestures. (I've had lots of interreligious contact with such folks.)

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #74
    Caged Wisdom Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I am not a student of Bob Millet's work so am somewhat neutral about it. What has he done that has bugged you? I ask in peace, because all I know is that he's done a lot of outreach to evangelical Christians, most of whom seem pretty impervious to his good will gestures. (I've had lots of interreligious contact with such folks.)
    I remember reading his book in "dialogue" with some evangelical scholar a few years back. I kept wanting to throw it across the room. He made some outright absurd statements ("there's no passage in the Bible that I don't personally believe and accept as the word of God") and generally his stance was apologetic, in the bad sense of the term. I understand the attraction of appealing to the Bible to show the reasonableness of Mormon belief. I went through that phase on my mission. But it seems to me his basic impulse is to pander to his crowd by playing up similarities with mainstream conservative Christian thought and downplaying our doctrinal distinctiveness. I would much rather be bold in emphasizing our differences. None of that "all their creeds are an abomination" stuff for Millet.

    Then again, I'm not interested in scoring political points for Mormonism and I think there may be some of that in Millet's approach: i.e., "yes, you can vote for Mormon candidates, their positions are just like yours."

  15. #75
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tic View Post
    I remember reading his book in "dialogue" with some evangelical scholar a few years back. I kept wanting to throw it across the room. He made some outright absurd statements ("there's no passage in the Bible that I don't personally believe and accept as the word of God") and generally his stance was apologetic, in the bad sense of the term. I understand the attraction of appealing to the Bible to show the reasonableness of Mormon belief. I went through that phase on my mission. But it seems to me his basic impulse is to pander to his crowd by playing up similarities with mainstream conservative Christian thought and downplaying our doctrinal distinctiveness. I would much rather be bold in emphasizing our differences. None of that "all their creeds are an abomination" stuff for Millet.

    Then again, I'm not interested in scoring political points for Mormonism and I think there may be some of that in Millet's approach: i.e., "yes, you can vote for Mormon candidates, their positions are just like yours."
    I like Mormon distinctives. The Articles of Faith are full of them. (I don't consider the location of Kolob to be a good topic for serious discussion about Mormon distinctives, however.)
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-22-2013 at 07:14 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I'm just saying it was an interesting way to say it's not irrational to believe in God. And it isn't. If you disagree with me on this I shall have no choice but to put an ice cube down your neck if you come to the USC game.
    I won't muck up your thread anymore (although you started it). I am downgrading my USC likelihood to 50/50 - my wife's cousin is getting married that weekend. I can think of few more obnoxious reasons to miss a great roadie than "cousin's wedding," but such is life.

  17. #77
    Uniform Fashion Expert HuskyFreeNorthwest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Applejack View Post
    I am downgrading my USC likelihood to 50/50 - my wife's cousin is getting married that weekend. I can think of few more obnoxious reasons to miss a great roadie than "cousin's wedding," but such is life.
    That sounds like doubt and you need to take that and GTFO of this believer thread.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by HuskyFreeNorthwest View Post
    That sounds like doubt and you need to take that and GTFO of this believer thread.
    I'm a ProgFan - I can pick and choose the parts I like. Maybe I'll come to Eugene instead.

  19. #79
    Caged Wisdom Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I've never read or heard anything written by him. I just dislike him because he's a BYU professor.
    There are two strikes against him right there.

    The other thing I worry about is anyone that always puts "Ph.D" after their name (or, worse, "Ed.D". Run from those like the plague).

  20. #80
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tic View Post
    There are two strikes against him right there.

    The other thing I worry about is anyone that always puts "Ph.D" after their name (or, worse, "Ed.D". Run from those like the plague).
    "J.D." gets the same reaction from me.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #81
    Caged Wisdom Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    What about "esquire"?
    Or a roman numeral? (RGIII excepted)

  22. #82
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    What about "esquire"?

    That's generally accepted when addressing a letter to an attorney, or perhaps referring to one in the third person, but no one uses it to describe himself or herself.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #83
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I was reminded this morning of this talk by Bruce Hafen back in 1979. I was in law school at the time and it meant a lot to me. Maybe others will like it too.

    On Dealing with Uncertainty

    It's my impression that talks like this are rare (about such subjects as amiguity) at BYU these days. It is pretty thoughtful. He begins:

    Early in life, most of us think of things in terms of black or white—there is very little gray in either the intellectual or the spiritual dimension of our perspective. Thus, most of the freshmen at places like Brigham Young University and Ricks College have a childlike optimism and loyalty that may make them wonderfully teachable and pleasant. I consider it one of the great blessings of my life to be associated with so many young people at this point in their lives at Ricks. It is typical of these young men and women to trust their teachers, to believe what they read, and to respond with boundless enthusiasm to invitations for Church service.


    Where else but in a student ward comprised mostly of freshmen would you find a Church member so thrilled to be called by the bishop as song book coordinator, sacrament bread coordinator, or Relief Society Sunday morning orange juice specialist? As one returned missionary recently told me, one thing he likes best about being in a ward of freshmen and sophomores is that when topics like faith and repentance are raised for discussion, nobody yawns.


    As time goes on, however, experiences often accumulate that introduce a new dimension to a student’s perspective. In general, I would characterize this new dimension as a growing awareness that there is a kind of gap between the real and ideal, between what is and what ought to be. To illustrate, I ask you to imagine in your minds two circles, one inside the other. The inner boundary is the real, or what is. The outer boundary is the ideal, or what ought to be. We stand at the inner boundary, reaching out, trying to pull reality closer to the inspired ideals to which we have committed ourselves. When we sense that some things about ourselves or the circumstances we witness are not all we wish they were, we become aware of the distance between these two boundaries. At that point some frustrations can arise. Let me offer some examples....

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #84
    Just ran across this thread, I know I'm a little late but thought I would chime anyway. I certainly don't want to turn this into a soap box for what I believe but I find religion and faith make up who I am to a great extent. For the record I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, like many I don't always agree with what the members of the church do and say(myself included) but I believe the church to be the true church of Jesus Christ. I was enthralled with the picture of the Sombrero Galaxy and the stats of the suns that are in that galaxy. A great struggle for me personally has always been the idea of infinity. As mortal beings we measure everything in the finite realm. Initially explorers set out to map the earth we live on and give everything finite measurements. It seems for the most part that goal has been completed and the same process has been turned to the cosmos. While I don't to be any sort of expert in astrology, it amazes me how scientists of the world continue to learn more and more about the universe and the many galaxies within it. As our knowledge of the surrounding universe expands, it seems to me that the idea of a finite universe is not feasible. The known universe continues to expand and strengthen my belief in God's infinite creations. The idea that God is acutely aware of any one of us, is completely mind boggling to me and my finite mind. I believe that is where faith comes in. Faith allows me to believe in something that I can't understand or measure but I believe to be true. Faith allows me to believe what I can't see or understand.

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I was reminded this morning of this talk by Bruce Hafen back in 1979. I was in law school at the time and it meant a lot to me. Maybe others will like it too.

    On Dealing with Uncertainty

    It's my impression that talks like this are rare (about such subjects as amiguity) at BYU these days. It is pretty thoughtful. He begins:
    lol.

    Look at LAU mocking the Lord's University in the Official Believer Thread. What a hypocrite.

  26. #86
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    lol.

    Look at LAU mocking the Lord's University in the Official Believer Thread. What a hypocrite.
    I forgot how sensitive you are about such things. It's still a good talk. If you read it maybe you'll find some help with reconciling your ideal (LAU loving everything about BYU) with reality (LAU doesn't love everything about BYU). Engineers in particular struggle with ambiguity. I'm telling you, JL, Hafen's talk can help you.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 04-24-2013 at 07:57 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #87
    Hafen used to give great talks, but he seems unhinged lately. Sad to watch.

  28. #88
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Hafen used to give great talks, but he seems unhinged lately. Sad to watch.
    Too much time at BYU does that to people.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Too much time at BYU does that to people.
    No, he jumped the tracks after he left!

  30. #90
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    No, he jumped the tracks after he left!
    He also got his law degree at he U. So the seeds were planted early. I'm surprised you didn't mention this.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

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