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Thread: A Believer Thread

  1. #181
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma'ake View Post
    Here's a thought for Mormons, or Christians or Muslims: What if the "truth" of your religion is not factually correct? For LDS, for example, what if Joseph Smith (more or less) fabricated the Book of Abraham? (Given what we know about Egyptian today this is not an outrageous hypothetical) Does that mean every other aspect of the religion is purely a façade, a fraud, worthless?

    The same question could be asked of Christianity, and Islam. If Jesus really was just a man, and he's not coming back, does that mean all of his teachings are worthless?

    What is our view today of the believers of Thor (since a lot of our ancestors certainly were in this school of thought)? All of their beliefs were basically just a futile attempt to make sense of this life?

    I suppose there is the scenario where Joseph Smith was a fraud, but Jesus is truly the Son of God, at which point you could make the case that Joseph Smith and the adherents of the LDS faith helped a lot of people come closer to Jesus, so it’s not as though the entire exercise is without merit.
    For the past 3 years, I've done a guest-lecture in an ancient history class on ancient Roman & Greek religion. In those cultures, there were the established civic cults where everyone would go to the ritual and then the barbecue (comparable to a 4th of July celebration in the US, I suggest), but there was also the personal religion, the one-on-one deals, the ex-voto offerings and side-bets with God. These almost always operated on a quid pro quo basis: if God/deity does X, then the suppliant will do Y. If X doesn't happen, then the two parties go their separate ways and a polytheistic worshiper will try another deity.

    This the model for Hannah asking for a child and promising it to God (1 Samuel 1.11), or any number of examples from ancient Greece & Rome. The students in these classes are always understandably dismissive of ancient religious belief, but they grow quiet when I remind them that, if the prayers and requests didn't work, there wouldn't be statues, dedications, and inscriptions telling us that the people believed that they did. The sheer number of ex-voto offerings suggests that these people believed that their prayers had been answered. Curse-tablets asking for horrible and violent actions have been uncovered spanning about a thousand years and huge geography. Ancient religion was inherently practical - if one god didn't fulfill your needs, you went and found another god. (note the 1st commandment to the Hebrews suggests that there are lots of options out there, but that they should have no other God before Jehovah; this is different from declaring that only one God exists). So, if these things didn't work in some way, why did people keep doing them for hundreds and hundreds of years? There was no belief (like today's) of "pay your tithing and then God will bless you temporally." It was "If God blesses me temporally, I'll pay some tithing."

    The pragmatic nature of these transactions means that the dedicators considered their prayers and requests to have been fulfilled. Who am I to discredit their loyalty and integrity in fulfilling the human end of the vow, when today's religions rely much more heavily on things like faith and patience and confidence in a final judgment? Most religions today expect their followers to obey God, submit offerings, and to meekly submit to whatever God wills. Ancient peoples expected to pay only for services rendered.

    Even if I don't believe in the gods of other times and other places, I sense a reverence or sacredness in places where people recognized their gods, whether it's Chartres Cathedral, a temple in ancient Greece, or a Native American vision-quest site. Maybe the hallowed nature of the ground stems solely from the human effort expended on that spot, and the human hopes and reverence towards something outside of themselves, but it's still there. At least to me.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  2. #182
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Excellent posts, Solon and Ma'ake.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    "One must keep on pointing out that Christianity is a statement which, if false, is of no importance, and, if true, of infinite importance. The one thing it cannot be is moderately important."

    You could say the exact thing about any mythology created for the express purpose of being infinitely important. If Unicornizm (the belief that unicorns will once again roam the earth farting eternal happiness) were true, it would be infinitely important. If I believed my toaster could transport me instantaneously anywhere through space and time, it would be of infinite importance if true. If Pauly Shore had the ability to raise the dead, it would be of infinite importance. It's a nonsensical quote where the key word Christianity could be replaced mad libs style for the same effect.

    it is infuriating because it poses the single stupidest reason for being religious in that it is a good risk/reward ratio neglecting the cumative potential lost by millions of people over centuries pursuing a false reason for existing. It is the equivalent of playing spiritual lottery except with worse odds.
    You know, it makes me roll my eyes too, but don't lose sight of the fact this is the believers thread. I'm not sure this is the right thread for a harsh critique, even though I'm sympathetic to your views. But maybe the believers don't mind? I don't know.
    “The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.”
    Carl Sagan

  4. #184
    Fascinating post, Solon. Thanks.

  5. #185
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    You know, it makes me roll my eyes too, but don't lose sight of the fact this is the believers thread. I'm not sure this is the right thread for a harsh critique, even though I'm sympathetic to your views. But maybe the believers don't mind? I don't know.
    I don't mind at all, as long as this remains a place where believers in any faith can feel comfortable discussing their faith and sharing what they value in it without ridicule, mocking, challenge, etc.

    As for the Lewis quote, Sancho had it right. Lewis, a believer if ever there was one, is simply saying that Christianity's claims (its "statement") are bold, in the cosmological sense (as Solon noted). The discussion about Christianity's merits is a separate topic.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  6. #186
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Anybody else have their father-son overnight this weekend? We're just finishing ours. I had pancake-flipping duty and acquitted myself rather well, I think.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #187
    Ours is not for another 2 weeks. Where did you go?
    Desse jeito, não tem jeito.

  8. #188
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Diego Ute Fan View Post
    Ours is not for another 2 weeks. Where did you go?
    Steckel Park, in the mountains between Santa Paula and Ojai. Beautiful place.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  9. #189
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Steckel Park, in the mountains between Santa Paula and Ojai. Beautiful place.
    We went to Snow Canyon State park near St. George. Glorious day. Windy-Rainy night. Glorious Saturday.
    Since I don't have any sons, I took my daughter.

    So jealous that you were in Ojai this weekend.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  10. #190
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Believer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    We went to Snow Canyon State park near St. George. Glorious day. Windy-Rainy night. Glorious Saturday.
    Since I don't have any sons, I took my daughter.

    So jealous that you were in Ojai this weekend.
    It's one of my favorite places. The drive there, if you do it right, is as much fun as being there. Highway 23 north to Fillmore, 10 miles west on 126 to Santa Paula, then Ojai Road north over the mountains. Lots of places to stop, out-of-the-way eateries, mountain farms, and some spectacular views of Ventura County.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 05-19-2013 at 11:33 AM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  11. #191
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    A pretty interesting blog post by an Episcopal priest, Danielle Tumminio (who seems like a pretty cool person, based on her bio):


    Don't Judge a Book of Mormon By Its Cover: How Mormons Are Discovering the Musical as a Conversion Tool

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I don't see how a toaster time machine would be of infinite importance to me. .
    You underestimate the toaster. I could go find young CS Lewis, kick him in the nads, take a deuce on his carpet, and wipe my ass with his Narnia manuscript. Then I could go back a few thousand years, keep an eye on the tomb, know the Truth with certainty, and repent for the whole CS Lewis thing if applicable

    And as others stated better, my issues were that you could make the same claim about any number of religions, and as Ma'ake said, the teachings of Jesus still hold immense value even if he wasn't a deity/savior. I just have a thing about CS Lewis; he tries to hit these high exultant notes, but just comes across as flat and tinny at best to me. Not sure why he gets under my skin so much, but from my first encounter with the Narnia stuff in grade school, I've found his writing immensely annoying.

  13. #193
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrj84105 View Post
    You underestimate the toaster. I could go find young CS Lewis, kick him in the nads, take a deuce on his carpet, and wipe my ass with his Narnia manuscript. Then I could go back a few thousand years, keep an eye on the tomb, know the Truth with certainty, and repent for the whole CS Lewis thing if applicable

    And as others stated better, my issues were that you could make the same claim about any number of religions, and as Ma'ake said, the teachings of Jesus still hold immense value even if he wasn't a deity/savior. I just have a thing about CS Lewis; he tries to hit these high exultant notes, but just comes across as flat and tinny at best to me. Not sure why he gets under my skin so much, but from my first encounter with the Narnia stuff in grade school, I've found his writing immensely annoying.
    I get it. Shall we try Chesterton next time?

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I get it. Shall we try Chesterton next time?
    Chesterton away!

  15. #195
    saw this this morning in Real Clear Politics Religion; may be of interest to many

    http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the...n-translation/

  16. #196
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    The Believer Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    saw this this morning in Real Clear Politics Religion; may be of interest to many

    http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/the...n-translation/
    Thanks. I downloaded it to my Kindle earlier this morning and look forward to reading it.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 06-09-2013 at 01:30 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #197
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    “The Work of Salvation” Missionary Broadcast

    Ward and stake council members, their spouses, full-time missionaries, and other interested Church members are invited to participate in a special session of the Seminar for New Mission Presidents entitled “The Work of Salvation,” which will be broadcast from the Marriott Center in Provo, Utah, on Sunday, June 23, 2013, at 4:00 p.m. mountain daylight time. The program will be subsequently rebroadcast to many areas of the world. President Thomas S. Monson, President Boyd K. Packer, and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles will share messages about how members and missionaries work together in a unified effort.

    Where necessary, local leaders should adjust scheduled worship services so that members are able to participate in the live broadcast of this historic event.

    A schedule including broadcast information for the Church satellite system, the Internet, and other media is available online at broadcastinfo.lds.org.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  18. #198
    If any of you missed the live missionary broadcast yesterday, it's worth watching.

    Here it is:

    http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/...g=eng&vid=
    Desse jeito, não tem jeito.

  19. #199
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #200
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    This piece, by a very smart guy who is an Evangelical Christian (and not not of the insufferable type) fits in this thread.

    Yes, There is Evidence God Exists


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  21. #201
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Last edited by LA Ute; 08-15-2013 at 02:02 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  22. #202
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    When I listened to this Dieter Uchtdorf talk the second time, it seemed that I had never before heard it. It made my week.


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #203
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    http://www.lds.org/liahona/2013/10/o...f-jen?lang=eng

    This is in the Oct. 2013 Ensign (although I don't know why it shows up as a Liahona article on lds.org).

    Jen is my sister. I thought this was a really nice compliment to her.

    Funny, though - I have some very different memories of my sister & the author in high school.

    (just kidding)
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  24. #204
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    It's a nice compliment, but a specific example would help the reader identify more with how that one person's gift was so meaningful. I wanted to know more why.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  25. #205
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    It's a nice compliment, but a specific example would help the reader identify more with how that one person's gift was so meaningful. I wanted to know more why.
    I totally agree. I remember my sister & the author during those years. My suspicion is that the specific examples are not Ensign-approved.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  26. #206
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    I totally agree. I remember my sister & the author during those years. My suspicion is that the specific examples are not Ensign-approved.
    Probably.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #207
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Probably.
    She was out of your league, LA.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  28. #208
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    She was out of your league, LA.
    Probably, but more importantly out of my generation.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  29. #209
    Educating Cyrus wuapinmon's Avatar
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    The snark of other shores is absent here.
    "This culture doesn't sell modesty. It sells "I am more modest than you" modesty." -- Two Utes

  30. #210
    Believers, here are some excellent sermons for you.

    http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0u7ZMWqkr7cKD_rvEXZUuQ
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

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