The official Donald Trump thread

[Two Utes]

I'm more appalled that he paid 24% in taxes. This is the United States. My middle class folk pay 24%, not my rich folk. How is he not smart enough to be paying 13% in taxes?

My rich people don't pay taxes, they GET help from the government. I want to tax my poor and give breaks to my rich. How dumb is this guy?

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

[concerned]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

You and I have lots of clients who dont pay a penny in income tax, and carry forward "losses" year after year.

[Utah]

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

Ding,ding,ding.

Trump should be paying a lower tax rate than 24%.

[Utah]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

Also,youaskl
Also, your point is my point. If you are making substantial amounts of money, there are fantastic ways to change that income to a 1099 and pay a lot less taxes on it.

Whereas if you are a middle class american and you are a W-2 employee, you get screwed by the tax system and are locked into the 20-30% federal tax rate.

Why should some schlup pay 28% of his income to taxes making $150,000 a year while Mitt and Buffett pay 13% of their income to taxes?

That is my problem with the tax system. You get penalized for being less well off and pay a substantially higher taxes than those who make more money. Then, you add taxes to gas, taxes to food, property taxes, etc...

It's not good to be making less than $250,000 a year in the US. The system is designed for those who make less than $250,000 to fail, not succeed. For those making $50,000-75,000? I feel bad. You're screwed over. There is literally no shot to move up after taxes, healthcare and retirement savings. You're toast.

[concerned]

Ding,ding,ding.

Trump should be paying a lower tax rate than 24%.

I frankly don't think it is a conicidence that the first two pages of the "client copy" of Trump's 2005 return leaked, who no info as to the source of the $150 million income. Trump had that billion dollar write off from the casino bankruptcy on OPM, and likely didn't pay any taxes year after year. 2005 might have been the one year he paid taxes. Who knows.

[Utah]

I frankly don't think it is a conicidence that the first two pages of the "client copy" of Trump's 2005 return leaked, who no info as to the source of the $150 million income. Trump had that billion dollar write off from the casino bankruptcy on OPM, and likely didn't pay any taxes year after year. 2005 might have been the one year he paid taxes. Who knows.

Yeah.
This leak doesn't make any sense, unless Trump leaked it.

[Two Utes]

Yes but most rich people don't make w-2 income; they make 1099 or investment income taxed at a much lower rate (e.g., as capital gains or as carried interest) and they have many, many business expenses, deductions and write offs, as you know. A "rich" person (what is the definition?) who pays an effective rate of 30% is getting incompetent or no tax advice. i doubt such people exist.

You and I have lots of clients who dont pay a penny in income tax, and carry forward "losses" year after year.

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

[Two Utes]

Also,youaskl
Also, your point is my point. If you are making substantial amounts of money, there are fantastic ways to change that income to a 1099 and pay a lot less taxes on it.

Whereas if you are a middle class american and you are a W-2 employee, you get screwed by the tax system and are locked into the 20-30% federal tax rate.

Why should some schlup pay 28% of his income to taxes making $150,000 a year while Mitt and Buffett pay 13% of their income to taxes?

That is my problem with the tax system. You get penalized for being less well off and pay a substantially higher taxes than those who make more money. Then, you add taxes to gas, taxes to food, property taxes, etc...

It's not good to be making less than $250,000 a year in the US. The system is designed for those who make less than $250,000 to fail, not succeed. For those making $50,000-75,000? I feel bad. You're screwed over. There is literally no shot to move up after taxes, healthcare and retirement savings. You're toast.

This is not true. You can't change your income to "1099" and magically stop paying taxes. Stop perpetuating this stupid shit.

[concerned]

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

If you think it is just a perception you are delusional. But we knew that anyway.

I absolutley agree that the tax code is tilted against W-2 wage earners, like us. But most business people, esp. small business, don't take income as w-2 income. And the gain on investment income is not taxed twice. That is a shioboleth, as you certainly know.

[Two Utes]

If you think it is just a perception you are delusional. But we knew that anyway.

So you concede you pay a shit pound of taxes and are in at least the top 2%. Thank you.

However you need to figure out that magical way to change your income to 1099 like Utah describes and then not pay taxes like Warren Buffett. Everybody is doing it.

You obviously need a better accountant.

[Utah]

This is not true. You can't change your income to "1099" and magically stop paying taxes. Stop perpetuating this stupid shit.

Itmost
It most certainly is true. I have two options right now:

I can pay myself as a W-2 employee and pay my 28% in taxes every year.

OR

I can pay myself a small salary as a W-2 employee, pay 20% in taxes on that amount and bonus the rest as capital gains and pay a much, much lower tax rate, taking my tax rate from 28% to less than 20%.

This "stupid shit" saves me thousands in taxes every year, and some poor guy who makes the same as me as an employee has to pay the 28% in taxes.

Like I said, the system is set up to screw the guy in the middle down.

Why should I pay 20% and Mitt pay 13%? Why should some guy making the same as me pay 28% and Mitt pays 13%?

Doesn't that seem a little messed up? Shouldn't Mitt and Trump be paying 28% and the middle class be paying 13%? Or 20%

That's the stupid shit.

[Two Utes]

Itmost
It most certainly is true. I have two options right now:

I can pay myself as a W-2 employee and pay my 28% in taxes every year.

OR

I can pay myself a small salary as a W-2 employee, pay 20% in taxes on that amount and bonus the rest as capital gains and pay a much, much lower tax rate, taking my tax rate from 28% to less than 20%.

This "stupid shit" saves me thousands in taxes every year, and some poor guy who makes the same as me as an employee has to pay the 28% in taxes.

Like I said, the system is set up to screw the guy in the middle down.

Why should I pay 20% and Mitt pay 13%? Why should some guy making the same as me pay 28% and Mitt pays 13%?

Doesn't that seem a little messed up? Shouldn't Mitt and Trump be paying 28% and the middle class be paying 13%? Or 20%

That's the stupid shit.

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

[concerned]

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

here is an example, a guy I was working with this morning. He owns a number of fast-food restaurants. He makes a really really good living. Just about all his expenses can be accounted for as business related, including his cars, his country club membership, and his hunting trips and other travel, and are paid for by the company. He hasnt paid federal income tax at least since 2005, and probably never will because of the NOL's associated with the restaurants. That happens all the time, and you know it.

[Utah]

And you don't volunteer to pay more because you feel bad? So, you just complain about the system and then take advantage of it? Seriously?

Oh, wait a minute, you're not talking about yourself, you're talking about a hypothetical person. Of course, Because if you were actually talking about yourself you would know that it isn't that easy and that even at 20% (if you have the ability to jump through the hoops to pay that percent) you would still be paying shit pounds of taxes at 20% and you wouldn't be complaining the system. You can only take two years out of five of loss carry forwards on business losses. You are talking again about investment losses--monies where taxes have already been paid.

Yeah, there are exceptions to every rule. The way Romney got so much money in a Roth IRA is absolutely perplexing. But to suggest that most rich people don't pay taxes is false and silly.

Wait, I should volunteer to pay more? That is a dumb argument. No, I should not volunteer to pay more. BUT, that doesn't mean it's right.

I HATE this argument that you put forward: "Well, it benefits you, so you should just shut up and be happy".

Maybe, just maybe, I want it to be better for those behind me. Maybe, just maybe, I grew up dirt poor, and realize that if I pitch in a little more, if we all pitch in a little more, especially those who can afford it, we can make it a better place.

Maybe, just maybe, I missed the part when Jesus said, "take what you can take and screw everyone else".

Maybe I see when I pay my tax rate and someone who makes the same as me pays a higher tax rate and someone who makes exponentially more than both of us pays a lower tax rate, I think to myself, "huh, this seems off".

I duuno.

[Utah]

The tax code needs to be simplified. It shouldn't be this hard.

Do something like this:

$35,000 and under: you pay no taxes.
$35-50,000: 5% fed, 2% state, 3% health care
$50-75,000: 7%% fed, 3% state, 3% health care
$75,000-120,000: 10% fed, 4% state, 5% health care
$120-250,000: 15% fed, 7% state, 7% health care
$250,000-1,000,000: 18% fed, 10% state, 8% health care
1,000,000+: 20% fed, 11% state, 8% health care.

That's it. Whatever money you pull from whatever, is taxed at that rate. Now, there will be some issues as well, such as "I should make $999,999 instead of $1,000,000, but that's not a bad thing either. But, this is a lot better than what we have now.

[Two Utes]

here is an example, a guy I was working with this morning. He owns a number of fast-food restaurants. He makes a really really good living. Just about all his expenses can be accounted for as business related, including his cars, his country club membership, and his hunting trips and other travel, and are paid for by the company. He hasnt paid federal income tax at least since 2005, and probably never will because of the NOL's associated with the restaurants. That happens all the time, and you know it.

You should know that small businessmen like him get tagged and audited by the IRS if they don't pay a certain portion of their income to taxes. They have software that spits out guys just like him for audit if his tax payments do not equal a certain percentage of his income. Sure he gets aggressive with his deductions. But he still must pay taxes. In a business like his, he can only declare two years of losses out of 5.

As to people who are just skimming cash, they are cheating and there will always be people like them, but it's harder now because so many people use credit to pay for everything. He can't run an active business for several years without paying taxes. He is paying taxes. Perhaps not on the business because it breaks even if he distributes everything (which he likely does, just like your law firm does. Can you believe it, concerned? Yours and my law firm distribute everything to the partners every year so that the firm doesn't have to pay taxes. My firm doesn't pay taxes, can you believe it? I hate America.), but he (and we) is paying on his income. It's not as easy as you think.

I have a client who I love. He hates paying taxes (because he's paid so much tax over the years). He loves to call me for legal stuff and pay me so he can have an expense offset to the profit he makes. He'd rather do that than pay more taxes. I will repeat, he hates hates hates paying taxes. But he still has to pay taxes on his income and has for years.

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

[Utah]

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

Now,thi
Now, this is stupid shit.

[Two Utes]

The tax code needs to be simplified. It shouldn't be this hard.

Do something like this:

$35,000 and under: you pay no taxes.
$35-50,000: 5% fed, 2% state, 3% health care
$50-75,000: 7%% fed, 3% state, 3% health care
$75,000-120,000: 10% fed, 4% state, 5% health care
$120-250,000: 15% fed, 7% state, 7% health care
$250,000-1,000,000: 18% fed, 10% state, 8% health care
1,000,000+: 20% fed, 11% state, 8% health care.

That's it. Whatever money you pull from whatever, is taxed at that rate. Now, there will be some issues as well, such as "I should make $999,999 instead of $1,000,000, but that's not a bad thing either. But, this is a lot better than what we have now.

The fed is a ton higher right now than your scale.

[concerned]

You should know that small businessmen like him get tagged and audited by the IRS if they don't pay a certain portion of their income to taxes. They have software that spits out guys just like him for audit if his tax payments do not equal a certain percentage of his income. Sure he gets aggressive with his deductions. But he still must pay taxes. In a business like his, he can only declare two years of losses out of 5.

As to people who are just skimming cash, they are cheating and there will always be people like them, but it's harder now because so many people use credit to pay for everything. He can't run an active business for several years without paying taxes. He is paying taxes. Perhaps not on the business because it breaks even if he distributes everything (which he likely does, just like your law firm does. Can you believe it, concerned? Yours and my law firm distribute everything to the partners every year so that the firm doesn't have to pay taxes. My firm doesn't pay taxes, can you believe it? I hate America.), but he (and we) is paying on his income. It's not as easy as you think.

I have a client who I love. He hates paying taxes (because he's paid so much tax over the years). He loves to call me for legal stuff and pay me so he can have an expense offset to the profit he makes. He'd rather do that than pay more taxes. I will repeat, he hates hates hates paying taxes. But he still has to pay taxes on his income and has for years.

Small businessmen are mostly Republican--because they pay so much tax.

Everything he does is above board, done by accountants, and is perfectly legal and very common--that is the point.

[U-Ute]

And concerned, as you know, you are talking about investment income. The argument is this money has already been taxed once and so the tax should be lower on the gain. I'd prefer to see it higher than it is but there is this ridiculous perception that rich people don't pay taxes. And it's perpetuated by people like you.

You're rich (at least top two percent of the country) and you pay shit pounds of taxes. Don't lie simply because you are a self-loathing democrat.

It is a matter of percentage vs real amount.

Rich people pay a large amount of real money but a very small percentage of their wealth in taxes.

Poor people pay a small amount but a large percentage of their wealth in taxes.

Republicans like to talk about the real amount because it is a large number. Democrats prefer to talk about percentages because that is a true indicator of the impact of how much something costs.

[pangloss]

Where do people get this stuff? if you make a substantial amount of money that is income from work rather than from capital gains, you pay high twenties and thirties in taxes. There is no way out of it. If you are in a state like Californian, you are paying over 40 if you add state income tax

Rich people who make their money by salaries/income pay shit pounds of taxes.

Other than professional athletes and entertainers, most seriously rich folks don't get compensated with salaries. Hedge fund managers, for example, get millions in annual long term capital gains - which ought to be a misnomer.

[pangloss]

IRS income tax audits plummet as agency faces budget cuts

draw your own conclusions

[Utah]

This was in reply to Two Utes reply to me:

Yup. It would take a drastic philosophy change. It would funnel a lot more money into the states, which would decrease reliance on federal dollars.

I'd be ok with moving the state % down as well.

Cap the state at 5% and shift the rest to fed.

My biggest issue is all the corporate welfare. I'm ok with paying taxes. I'm ok with everyone paying their fair share. BUT, when some poor mom is making $65,0000 a year paying a higher tax rate that Buffett and Romney...that's a problem.

[Two Utes]

This was in reply to Two Utes reply to me:

Yup. It would take a drastic philosophy change. It would funnel a lot more money into the states, which would decrease reliance on federal dollars.

I'd be ok with moving the state % down as well.

Cap the state at 5% and shift the rest to fed.

My biggest issue is all the corporate welfare. I'm ok with paying taxes. I'm ok with everyone paying their fair share. BUT, when some poor mom is making $65,0000 a year paying a higher tax rate that Buffett and Romney...that's a problem.

The biggest problem is the benefits we are paying retired and "disabled" state and federal employees and veterans. We're living longer. the benefits we are paying out are now extended out to three generations. Grandpa who is still alive, his kid who retired at 50, 55 or 60 and the grand kid who is actually working. That and the extremely high costs of medical care for the elderly baby boomers who are such a massive number of people. It's fucking killing this country. Our infrastructure is falling apart and no one will take on this problem because they are such a large voting block (and yes also defense costs are massive.)

[Utah]

The biggest problem is the benefits we are paying retired and "disabled" state and federal employees and veterans. We're living longer. the benefits we are paying out are now extended out to three generations. Grandpa who is still alive, his kid who retired at 50, 55 or 60 and the grand kid who is actually working. That and the extremely high costs of medical care for the elderly baby boomers who are such a massive number of people. It's fucking killing this country. Our infrastructure is falling apart and no one will take on this problem because they are such a large voting block (and yes also defense costs are massive.)

Yeah, the Baby Boomers have royally screwed a lot up.

It's just going to take a huge philosophical shift in this country. I think my generation (the damned millennials) are starting to see this and the benefits of it, but I'm not sure much will change until the Boomers die off.

And while we dig deeper into Reaganomics, other countries pass us up in terms of the "American Dream".

[Utah]

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...-dream-europe/

[mUUser]

Based on your analysis of 2 ppgs of his 1040 you could save this guy $16 million in taxes? I'm certain he'd hire you on the spot and fire the team of dolts that work for him. Once word got out that all these millionaires/billionaires are paying twice what they're obligated they'll be beating down your door for your help. The downside is you'll probably need to cut back on your UB5 posts so maybe it isn't worth it. 🙄

[Utah]

Based on your analysis of 2 ppgs of his 1040 you could save this guy $16 million in taxes? I'm certain he'd hire you on the spot and fire the team of dolts that work for him. Once word got out that all these millionaires/billionaires are paying twice what they're obligated they'll be beating down your door for your help. The downside is you'll probably need to cut back on your UB5 posts so maybe it isn't worth it. 

Yeah,you'resosmart.

You got me there.

Did I invade your safe space?

[Two Utes]

Yeah, the Baby Boomers have royally screwed a lot up.

It's just going to take a huge philosophical shift in this country. I think my generation (the damned millennials) are starting to see this and the benefits of it, but I'm not sure much will change until the Boomers die off.

And while we dig deeper into Reaganomics, other countries pass us up in terms of the "American Dream".

Yep, all of this is Reagan's fault. sheesh.

[Utah]

Yep, all of this is Reagan's fault. sheesh.

Do
I'd like if better if you posted something substantial. Why is it not Reagan's fault? How has trickle down worked? Does it not worry you that our economy looks just like it did right before the Great Depression? That it looks nothing like it did when we were at our greatest?

I guess the silver lining is that if we do have another Great Depression looming, with what Trump is doing with North Korea, we can just jump into another world war to fix it, right?

He really is trying to make America great again...just like it was in the 1930's.