I'm interested in this. Pro-life activities have never been a big part of my life, although I am very sympathetic to, and supportive of, efforts to minimize elective abortions, encourage adoption, etc. But this seems like it ought to get some attention. If the video takes the PP offiicial's statements out of context, I'd like to know. If these people are violating the law I'd like to see them prosecuted.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Yes. This video was fabricated. This happened to be a top story on Reddit this morning.
https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/co...really_proves/
EDIT - If you haven't been on Reddit before: This link sends you to a page that has a link to the story and comments from the Reddit community about the story.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...wers/30426475/
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
So far, all of the states that have done investigations have turned up nothing. Now the group that produced the video is being sued.
https://www.yahoo.com/health/state-p...533982837.html
Of course they haven't done anything illegal. There are proper legal channels to follow to obtain tissue and organ samples for research, and they follow those laws. If the embryo is going to be destroyed anyway, it should at least be used for research to help the living.
This video shows that one of their employees (executive?) had a bad case of gallows humor, but that is all.
Another point of view:
http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...al-nonsensical
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"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
More:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...pIAvqSW02jb.01
Maybe a middle ground approach to this issue would be to limit the research use of fetal tissue to that produced by non-elective abortions. This controversy reminds me of the stem cell debate, but it seems a lot less murky and nuanced. I think most people are pretty much horrified. I know I am.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I continue to be amazed how the left gets so worked up over a lion in Africa being shot by a guy who thought his guides were taking him on a legal hunt but could care less about aborting mudterm living fetus's/baby's with organs.Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan
The cavalier and disturbing attitude that has been exposed by Planned Parenthood hawking these organs is disgusting and barbaric regardless of how you try to spin it. I have a difficult time comprehending why there isn't more disgust regarding the recent videos that have come to light from the left as well. It would seem the approach and attitude demonstrated in these videos should be abhorrent to any decent person regardless of political persuasion.
Has the far left really lost so much of its moral compass that an isolated shooting of a lion in Africa is more of a tragedy and disturbing than the borderline barbaric attitude displayed by some of these Planned Parenthood executives in these videos?
Last edited by #1 Utefan; 08-04-2015 at 01:21 PM.
Seems like a no-brainer. By banning late-term abortions we'd limit the incentive to wait until later in a pregnancy before aborting (so that the baby's organs are better formed and more usable). Man, it makes me cringe even to type those words.
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Last edited by LA Ute; 08-04-2015 at 02:33 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I'm worked up over both. Where does that pigeon hole me?
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
It doesn't pigeon hole you anywhere (unless you want to be). What it makes you is a good, compassionate person who doesn't let their political ideology jade their thinking. Thinking that leads to rationalization of behavior that should treated with disdain and anger.
I am a conservative and feel the same as you on both issues. Where I differ from some of the nutty left and Hollywood crowd on the lion issue in that I don't think the dentist knew the lion was protected and was following his guides. I am not a hunter personally and don't think big game species with dwindling habitat and numbers like lions, rhinos, etc. should be hunted at all. My problem with the afore mentioned crowd is going so far as to issue death threats against the dentist while ignoring, downplaying, or excusing away the abhorrent behavior by Planned Parenthood. Seems most media outlets and the Hollywood crowd are far more preoccupied and concerned about the lion which strikes me as bizarre.
Last edited by #1 Utefan; 08-04-2015 at 02:00 PM.
Haha, you realize the far right wing has the exact same type of crowd right?
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True that. Sadly so.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Diehard, welcome to the conversation. Yes, I know there are loonies on both sides. Unfortunately, we here a lot more about the right wing than we do about the nuttie left crowd of which many in Hollywood belong. Why? It would seem for some reason that many who belong in that category are also in positions in media and movies to control the conversation.
Many that fall into this category are more concerned about this lion incident than they are about ghouls at Planned Parenthood (those that share a similar political ideology) selling aborted baby organs to the highest bidder.
As I stated, I am opposed to both. I think most big game in Africa should be off limits for hunters. That said, the response from the left (Obama abd Hillary included) on the Planned Parenthood issue has been silent while the media generally tries to ignore it and sweep it under the carpet.
Since you seem to have some opinions on these issues, care to share your thoughts?
Last edited by #1 Utefan; 08-04-2015 at 04:44 PM.
The worst thing about this fiasco for atheists and liberals is that it will now drive up the cost of baby parts. Do you have any idea how expensive it is to stick with the all-baby diet these days? You people have no compassion for people in this difficult economy.
/s
On a serious note here is a beautiful and very poignant story about medical research on fetal/newborn tissue samples.
(TL/DR - a couple had identical twins, but one was born essentially without a brain and lived for about one week. When he died they donated his tissue for research. Several years later the mother tracked down the tissue samples and traveled to the research labs to interview the scientists. The samples have infinite value to science because they are healthy and in some cases (ESP corneas) they continue to regenerate.)
http://www.radiolab.org/story/grays-donation/
Much of the current research into cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc, is impossible without access to these types of tissues. This is the very ugly truth of the matter.
I wonder if there could be a ban on use of fetal tissue from elective abortions. That would solve the moral/ethical problem, but would also reduce the amount of tissue available. For me that's an easy trade-off.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
You couldn't really get fetal tissues from non-elective abortions (miscarriages) because fetal demise is typically not immediately recognized, and even if it were the delay between recognition of fetal demise and completion of informed consent for tissue harvesting would preclude the procurement of viable tissue. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, this policy would completely halt research utilizing embryronic stem cells. And seeing as that's the only minutely redeeming aspect of this practice it would be a real shame.
I think a better policy would be to preclude whole organ collection since the clearly illegal and (in the context of abortion) unethical portion is the alteration of the procedure, in potentially unsafe ways, to accommodate whole organ procurement. It's unthinkably gruesome, and no one can talk about the practicalities of salvaging some benefit for mankind from this event without sounding like a monster, but I don't think that means that stem cell procurement shouldn't happen.
I fear that putting further restrictions on the procurement of tissue samples could create a black market for tissues from foreign countries. The live-donor organ trade worldwide already does this to some extent. (Not quite to the level of 'waking up in a tub of ice with a new incision and one fewer kidney', but still...)
Conversely it could lead to reductions in research. It is impossible to use a synthetic tissue to perform the same research, and without the tissues we cannot progress in our body of knowledge. A very large portion of all medical research is performed in the USA and restrictions based on emotions could yield far-reaching consequences for all of humanity.
It is gruesome to think about, and of course the rhetoric of tearing up babies and throwing them into a sink is highly emotional. But it is perhaps useful to remember that 91%+ of all abortions in the USA happen before 13 weeks, with an additional 8% between 13-18 weeks gestation.
And if we are talking about harvesting stem cells from an embryo we need to remember that the brain of the fly you just smashed with a flyswatter contained an order of magnitude more cells than the entire embryo.
Comprehending the situation requires a significant amount of nuance, and politicians popping off uninformed will not help.
After Chaffetz's high publicized buffoonery with the Planned Parenthood q&a earlier this week, he's decided to run for House Speaker. God help us.
Even the D News seems to be trolling him with their photo choice.
Chaffetz is planning run for U.S. House speaker, sources say
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865638094/?user=app
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I am not much of a Seth Myers fan but this is a good discussion of the whole Planned Parenthood congressionalwitch hunthearing this week.
The video that Carly Fiorina mentioned in her statement at the last debate ('a living baby was born then had its brain harvested') was in fact a video made from pictures of a baby that was born tragically at 19 weeks and only lived a few minutes. The family took some pictures holding him, sharing his brief life. The family did NOT give authorization for their pictures to be used for that video, although they won't press the issue. Carly Fiorina got duped, and did not realize it.
The person who SHOULD have been called to testify in that hearing is the president of Center for Medical Progress, David Daleiden (who put together that highly dishonest 'sting' video on PP). But there is no way they would call him to testify as his entire story would unravel in mere minutes and undermine the entire purpose of that hearing.
This entire hullabaloo about defunding PP is such a strange thing. PP doesn't get a fat check from the government; they get reimbursed for services provided. The only way to 'defund' the organization at the Federal level would be to pass a law that forbids them from billing for medical charges, or by collectively revoking their medical licenses somehow.
The chart shown in this vid by byu-p placekicker Jason Chaffetz purports to show a decrease in breast exams and a corresponding increase in abortions. But the scales are completely out of whack. The truth is the number of abortions increased over the time scale at a rate of about half the increase of the total US population increase (from ~315k to ~325k). Breast exams decreased from ~970k to ~950k over the same time frame. But the chart shows them overlapping. And this is even more out of scale if you compare the TOTAL amount of annual patient visits to the number of abortions. The total number of discrete patient visits is on the order of 10.5M annually vs the 325k abortions.
I don't care what opinion people have of PP, but you have to admit that Exec Director Cecile Richards is a cool cat. Just like her mom (former Texas Governor Anne Richards).
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...g-jim-geraghty
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Can you give an exec summary?
Fiorino: "Well, yeah, we lied, but can you say that's not happening?"
Do you guys think there are any legitimate questions or concerns about PP and fetal tissue?
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I don't even know if I understand the rules well enough to say.
What I can say is I don't necessarily trust the people attacking the system because they keep using unscrupulous techniques to try and discredit them and if they had any real information they wouldn't have to resort to trying to trick people.
I get that and am no activist in this area. But as I understand it the people who made the videos used typical investigative reporter-type techniques. They also made complete unedited versions of their videos available so no one can say they edited them unfairly. I don't know that PP violated any laws but if what they do is callous and repulsive to people, and taxpayers are funding it, there's no reason not to shine a spotlight on it. Just my opinion.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
If they have the complete unedited videos available, then whomever understands the law can make a decision as to whether or not they are doing anything illegal.
Until I hear that the videos actually show something, then I'll have to assume everything is fine.
Absolutely. And those questions do get asked. And in this case medical ethics committees and/states attorney general in twelve separate states DID investigate.
From New England Journal of Medicine:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1510279Along the way, the target broadened, and the use of fetal tissue in research was also attacked. Portrayed as ghoulish vivisection and body-part snatching, it was decried as barbaric by members of Congress. Within weeks, inquiries were announced in Arizona, Indiana, Florida, Kansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Ohio, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas; Arizona began looking into making it more difficult to provide tissue; and bills were drafted in Wisconsin and California to make it virtually impossible to use fetal tissue or fetal cells. The inquiries revealed no law broken by Planned Parenthood, but only time will tell how many bills become law.
I think for a lot of people it is just repulsive to hear someone speak so callously and non-chalantly and often even pridefully about killing fetuses. I watched some of these videos, I wish I hadn't.
Also, as far as the purported deception by Fiorina regarding these videos you'd have to be pretty stupid to believe that what they were showing were actual pictures and video of the abortion practices as described by the former abortion technician. She is recounting her co-worker's triggering the heart of a 19 week old fetus and then cutting down its face to procure the brain. They also show a fetus that is still breathing but discarded in a bowl with some surgical tools. I don't know what that video is from but it is terribly painful to see it being treated like that. I wish I hadn't seen it.
The problem in all of this is people are realizing exactly what is going on with these procedures and realizing it is really disturbing. Hearing a woman over lunch describing forcing a soon to be aborted fetus to be delivered breach because it is easier to chop it up and also keep the brain intact is shocking.
I get that people who deal with awful things often become callous or have gallows humor or what not, but it is as disturbing as if you realized a mortician was being callous or disrespectful to the deceased. It probably happens with some but is better not seen.
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Last edited by Rocker Ute; 10-05-2015 at 09:37 AM.
Poor women need Planned Parenthood. They are among society's most vulnerable and at risk people. That is the bottom line. People who are deploying whatever was said -- callous or even illegal as it may have been (I've really not read it, I admit) -- are evil, for lack of a better term.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
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