http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33819032
Do atheists do this kind of thing to religious bloggers who disagree with them?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-33819032
Do atheists do this kind of thing to religious bloggers who disagree with them?
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
You do it in your hearts, which is just as bad.Originally Posted by SeattleUte
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Welcome to the new unbeliever blog. I have a feeling this forum will not be chloroform in print like its alter ego blog. Maybe you and I will be the Hannity and Holmes of UB5.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
Perhaps. But maybe believers will let unbelievers have their own thread so the poor faithless souls can talk to each other without someone trying to drop in and start a food fight. Not that anything like that has ever happened on this board, of course....
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
My question is what is exactly an "Un-Believer" or a "Dis-Believer", or whatever? Don't believe in the theology of a particular religion? Disbelieve any notion that there might be something beyond this life?
I think it was Dawkins who qualified his non-belief by confining it to the so-called "personal God" that western religions believe in, not a criticism of eastern religions' concept of universal consciousness, Nirvana, etc.
There was an atheist on British TV who said his proof there is no God are all the horrible things that happen to completely innocent people, like children who have some kind of insect eat their eyes out. "A merciful God would never allow that to happen".
Hinduism has no problem explaining all the miserable things that happen to good people. Life is brutal, it is suffering. What do we learn along the way?
It appears Hannity & Homes is already happening. Love it.
Unbelief as I use it refers to essentially to religions; unbelief in all religious institutions and their literature and metaphysics as anything other than man-made. It means outright rejection of all religion as deserving any special status whatsoever or anything I am at all willing to subject or subjugate myself to. Historically this attitude has been enough to get oneself branded an atheist. But I prefer the term unbelief, as a clean descriptive term that is the converse of belief. Atheist is too loaded, too subjective, and, I submit, misunderstood. Same for agnostic. Personally, I regard the difference between a thoughtful person who calls himself an atheist and one who calls himself an agnostic to be nil, other than self-definition. And of course this type of self-definition can be crucial to one's social acceptance and standing, even in the USA. Tom Paine nicely put the unbeliever's creed.
In the mid-seventeenth century a young Jewish man living in the Netherlands named Baruch Spinoza said essentially as much to himself. His primary preoccupation became biblical exegesis -- he thought it obvious that the Bible was wholly analogous to the Iliad. His critique of scripture got him excommunicated from Judaism, and also ignited the Enlightenment, which led to Darwin, modernism, the United States, 14th Amendment, Brown v. Board of Education, same sex marriage, et al. Unbelievers, like believers, see these events in terms of a cosmic battle. When Dallin Oaks condemned the Renaissance, humanism, the Enlightenment, and modernism , he was right, as an advocate of religion. So was Boyd K. Packer, when he said that intellectuals, feminists, and gays are the chief enemies of the LDS Church.
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.
I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavouring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
But, lest it should be supposed that I believe many other things in addition to these, I shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things I do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
LOL ... SeattleUte fancies himself a modern day Spinoza! Ironically asserting he has exercised his free will, emancipating himself from religion, and then in the same breath insisting that free will is an illusion because we are the sum of nature and it's laws, and nothing more. Leaving the church is "his" evolutionary advantage ensuring he will survive, by natural selection, and the believers will be rendered extinct.
Last edited by tooblue; 08-08-2015 at 07:10 AM.
Actually, I'll defend Seattle Ute, here. It's really, really easy pickins to dissect most religions, with their metaphysical claims. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are easily deconstructed, with innumerable contradictions, tall tales and text that has to be very, very finely parsed, and some parts ignored, in order to maintain any semblance of a coherent theology.
For LDS and Christian believers to understand this perspective, they should try to read the Bhagavad Gita, which is a similarly styled book, essential scripture for 900 million Hindus. I work with a number of Indians, mostly Hindu, and while most of them don't denigrate their faith, the educated Hindus we see in American Universities aren't exactly devout. I see very few Indian women who wear the Bindi, the little dot Hindus put on their forehead, unless their parents are in town and they're giving a tour of our facility.
I think the (apparent) losses in membership Mormonism is seeing is not at all unusual, and more and more people decide traditional religions just don't measure up, in terms of rationality.
For example, there was a recent poll of Russians about religion, and the number of church goers is quite low, in the 20-25% range, which is odd, considering their having been denied religion during the Soviet era, and religion hence being one of the freedoms they were re-connected with after the fall of communism. I think most Russians, having a break in intergenerational religion, didn't have the continuity in culture and belief passed down within their families, and so they were getting a "fresh" look at religion, and the overwhelming majority found it wanting. LDS missionaries have "modest" success in Russia, where it was once thought there would be eager potential converts, having suffered without the gospel for so long.
Interestingly, the same poll indicated that many Russians have "faith" that something lies beyond this life, something the religions are trying to embody, but clearly lots of churches struggle in getting and keeping members, not just Mormons.
Wait, Renaissance bashing? I've decided I live on an island within my own church. I've never heard ANY of that sort of stuff... Kind of the opposite in fact -- that technological, philosophical, social, religious, etc movements, advancements and enlightenments were predecessors and necessary for the restoration of the gospel.
What is more beautiful to Christians than the Pieta?
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1439045721.095615.jpg
This is what I get for sleeping through General Conference I suppose.
The LDS church is growing at a steady clip and will continue to grow. The issue of keeping members is no more significant now than it was at its inception, save the optics on scale: it looks like many because there are many, simply because there are exponentially more members of the church etc.
But all this is not germane to the question of whether or not SeattleUte is a true Spinozist. I suspect he is not, based on my many interactions with him. And maybe therein lies the root cause of his internal conflict: his desire to be something he's not. Which is the battle we all face on some level. Though, I think it's fun to observe that each of us defending or talking about him renders him God-like in a sense and feeds his weltanschauung, or the "logos" that governs (his) reasoning.
Last edited by tooblue; 08-08-2015 at 12:10 PM.
You definitely live on an island. Your ward will actually accept people who are open and admitted Democrats. That is rare in Utah.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
Here's how Dallin Oaks "condemned" the Renaissance:
Now that you know how SU, a very bright man, shamelessly plays fast and loose with truth, accuracy and intellectual honesty, you can decide how seriously to take his Unbeliever's Creed.The denial of God or the downplaying of His role in human affairs, which began in the Renaissance, has become pervasive today. The glorifying of human reasoning has had good effects and bad. The work of science has made innumerable improvements in our lives, but the rejection of divine authority as the ultimate basis of right and wrong by those who have substituted science for God has many religious people asking this question:
“Why [is] the will of any of the brilliant philosophers of the liberal tradition, or, for that matter, the will of the Supreme Court of the United States . . . more relevant to moral decisions than the will of God”?
P.S. Mornin', Ralph.
v
Last edited by LA Ute; 08-08-2015 at 11:36 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Is this a reasonable paraphrase: "The moral decay of society began with the Renaissance, continued through Thomas Jefferson and other Deists, and now results in people using human reasoning in place of God's commandments" ? The obvious responses would be "who's God, and which commandments?"
I read Oaks' words to mean "our downfall began with the Renaissance", if you had to boil down the first part. And you could make the case, that from a faith standpoint, there's truth in that statement, as the evolution of human reasoning and quest for knowledge has had a detrimental impact on religions, and faith.
As people have their material needs better met, and life is not as precarious as it has been over the course of human history, the need for faith is generally less, overall, which is manifested in it being much easier for LDS missionaries to find converts in poor countries, and a lot tougher to find converts in more "advanced" countries, where life's problems don't involve locating next week's food.
Clearly, modern mankind has problems - there is no utopia, no nirvana - and you find people searching for faith when they're facing the really big problems in life, but in general. But when life becomes comfortable, philosophy emerges, reason and critical thinking arise, and with the relative confidence of education and material success, people try to make sense of life, in the process giving a jaundiced eye to mythology, or looking past the metaphysical, searching for lessons.
You have people like Thomas Jefferson editing the Bible to exclude the parts he thought to be preposterous.
Elder Oaks was decrying "The denial of God or the downplaying of His role in human affairs," not the Renaissance. He mentioned the Renaissance only to mark the time when the change in thinking began. SU said Oaks "condemned the Renaissance," which is simply dishonest. Oaks wasn't condemning anything but excessive secularism. You've done a much better (non-trolling) job of articulating the position that Oaks does not like. It's an argument on which reasonable people can and do disagree.
And now I've allowed SU to troll me. Then again, sometimes he actually means what he says about such things.
Sam_and_Ralph_choke.jpg
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Our ward tried to make it more Christ-centered, and changed it to "Jesus loves everyone, except Galileo".
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
Apparently I've hit all five of them in my adult life.
Speaking of Galileo, it is perhaps one of life's best paradoxes that his anti-science accusers/tormentors (Jesuits) became some of the Renaissaince's most influential scientists and champions of gaining a secular education to augment a religious education. Jesuit astronomers established the Vatican Observatory, developed the highly-accurate Gregorian Calender we still use today, and drove the church to (nominally) accept science. Jesuit scientists contributed to the study of Genetics, mathematics, biology, paleontology, etc., all of which were previously seen by conservative fundamental religious types as anathema to religious belief. They also established some of the world's finest universities. And the current Pope is a Jesuit who spent time as a Chemistry professor.
Give this excellent podcast a listen. Neil Degrasse-Tyson interviews Richard Dawkins as well as a pair of Jesuit priests who are strong proponents of the Theory of Evolution. It is well worth a listen.
http://www.startalkradio.net/show/ex...chard-dawkins/
Nice graphics, LA. I wish I had thought of that. One of my favorite cartoon series ever. They don't make them like they used to.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
Hmm, I think you're being too charitable to religion. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Three things inevitably converge: increased rate of education, increased rate of unbelief, increased prosperity. I think you may have your chronology twisted up.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
I'm just glad I thought of it first so I could have first dibs on being Sam the Sheepdog and relegate you to being Ralph the Wolf (cousin to Wile E. Coyote, IIRC).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I have no problem being Ralph. A guy like Ralph, eventually winds up on top. Perseverance is the most important quality for success; that's what I tell my kids. Anyway, in this crowd I'm definitely Ralph and you're Sam.
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
Ha! I love when I miss the sarcasm and fall for it. You got me today, apologies on the slow uptake.
I hope they put this picture up for the 'Down with Renaissance' program:
This is a dangerous precedent. Next thing you know they will allow people to have their pets join.
It is a slippery slope.
Not surprised at all you interpreted his comments that way. Selective listening and hearing what you want to hear to fit a narrative unfortunately isn't uncommon.
Spinoza wasn't emancipated from religion. On the contrary, he sought to re-kindle spirituality from the vapid ritual-based religion of his time. Spinoza worshiped God - not the words on a page of scripture or the ritual in a church at Mass. Richard Bushman, whose opinion seems to be in hot demand these days, spoke in the same vein when he suggested recently that LDS should worship God, not Mormonism. Similarly, the O.T. prophet Amos (5.5-6) urged Israel to seek The LORD, not Bethel (a holy site that means "House of God"). Spinoza advocated an ethical love that stripped away all of the unnecessary convolutions of religion, ritual, bureaucracy, and tradition - is this not what Jesus did to the Judaism of his time?
We need more Spinozas in today's world to advocate for the freedom to allow people to think for themselves, to decide what kind of ethics, beliefs, and morality they want to adopt as they pursue happy lives;
just like we need more Seattle Utes who (in real life) advocates for those who have no other advocate. There is more Jesus in SU than he might be comfortable admitting.
Let's keep this place friendly, please.
Last edited by Solon; 08-10-2015 at 03:42 PM. Reason: fixed link
σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
-- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.
Shut up, you jerk!
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Mississippi's flag:Since 2011 Mississippi has been ranked the most religious state in the country--Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missis...ississippi.svg
Mississippi is the only state in the Union that bans same sex couples adoptions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/us...=top-news&_r=0
Coincidence?Mississippi is ranked low or last among the states in such measures as health, educational attainment, and median household income--Wikipedia
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.
--Albert Einstein
The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.
--Richard Dawkins
Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.
--Philo
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