2016 Presidential Election

[Ma'ake]

This may be a serious problem. In counties with electronic voting systems, Clinton received 7% fewer votes than expected, based on neighboring counties with conventional vote counting. *Computer scientists* are urging Clinton to ask for a recount in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

Obama said its nearly impossible to hack a US election because its so de-centralized, but nobody thought about the need to hack just certain counties in certain states.

While everyone has been assuming the election was above board in the actual counting, it takes computer scientists to see enough of a pattern to bring up the topic, long after everyone else has accepted the election.

We know that the Russians have attempted to hack into state systems, and generally manipulated information to Trump's advantage. That's what we know. Quite conceivably, there's more that we don't know.

I'm no fan of Clinton, but Americans should be outraged if our electoral system was compromised by foreign intelligence operatives. It would exonerate Nate Silver and all the predictors. They surely want to know.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politi...lenge-results/

[U-Ute]

This may be a serious problem. In counties with electronic voting systems, Clinton received 7% fewer votes than expected, based on neighboring counties with conventional vote counting. *Computer scientists* are urging Clinton to ask for a recount in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

Obama said its nearly impossible to hack a US election because its so de-centralized, but nobody thought about the need to hack just certain counties in certain states.

While everyone has been assuming the election was above board in the actual counting, it takes computer scientists to see enough of a pattern to bring up the topic, long after everyone else has accepted the election.

We know that the Russians have attempted to hack into state systems, and generally manipulated information to Trump's advantage. That's what we know. Quite conceivably, there's more that we don't know.

I'm no fan of Clinton, but Americans should be outraged if our electoral system was compromised by foreign intelligence operatives. It would exonerate Nate Silver and all the predictors. They surely want to know.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/22/politi...lenge-results/

In my experience of electronic sausage making, I know I've read in multiple sources that those electronic voting machines are far from secure. I don't trust them any further than I could throw Isaac Asiata.

[LA Ute]

I think if Clinton challenges the election outcome it will be disastrous for the USA. I mean, just think about it. Please, don't do it, Hillary. I'd say the same about Trump.

[Ma'ake]

Here's Medium entry from Alex Halderman, the U of Michigan Computer Science professor: https://medium.com/@jhalderm/want-to...0ba#.ho6xc4pkm

His hunch is the pollsters were wrong, but it's important to validate the election results, because - like U-Ute says above - these systems are far from being bullet-proof secure.

Working in IT Sec, I can tell you we're far, far less secure than we think we are.

The guys I work with - who are much deeper into this stuff than I am - are telling me that beyond the varieties of Email phishing, ransomware, script-kiddie digital graffiti, etc, that our networks are being mapped by hackers, some of whom seem less interested in making a quick buck off ransomware or password grabbers, and more interested in knowing how we function, as organizations. Call it the "Great Surveillance". Our government has been watching a lot of people for a long time... it shouldn't be a surprise that other governments or organizations are doing the same thing.

In a sense, whoever won the election is a less important question. (Tens of millions of politically detached Americans would agree.)

[pangloss]

I think if Clinton challenges the election outcome it will be disastrous for the USA. I mean, just think about it. Please, don't do it, Hillary. I'd say the same about Trump.

I tend to agree with you. But the prospect of it being true - that the election has been corrupted and the winner determined by something other than voters would be stunning. And the even more remote prospect of it being orchestrated by Russia, yikes -- that's approaching an act of war.

The statistical analysis showing one type of voting machine has a 7% bias toward Trump in Michigan needs to be explained. It doesn't mean the machine's chips or software have been rigged. Maybe they are used in the more affluent or less diverse (i.e. white) districts.

It just looks weird, really weird.

I can't fathom a repeat of the the nightmare of the 2000 election. But I want to have unwavering faith in the sanctity of the country's electoral institutions.

[Ma'ake]

News: Hillary's lead in the popular vote exceeds two million.

Trump tweet: "I've never been a fan of the Electoral College until now"

I don't think Donald was trying to be funny, but that was some quality work.

[#1 Utefan]

I tend to agree with you. But the prospect of it being true - that the election has been corrupted and the winner determined by something other than voters would be stunning. And the even more remote prospect of it being orchestrated by Russia, yikes -- that's approaching an act of war.

The statistical analysis showing one type of voting machine has a 7% bias toward Trump in Michigan needs to be explained. It doesn't mean the machine's chips or software have been rigged. Maybe they are used in the more affluent or less diverse (i.e. white) districts.

It just looks weird, really weird.

I can't fathom a repeat of the the nightmare of the 2000 election. But I want to have unwavering faith in the sanctity of the country's electoral institutions.

I have to kind of chuckle about this discussion. The Republicans have been accusing Democrats of voter fraud for at least the past two elections (and the lefts vehement opposition to common sense voter ID laws seemingly supports the theory).

Now we have the left's version of voter fraud only now it is mysterious computers in isolated counties in the Midwest likely hacked by Putin operatives. I don't pretend to know what may have or may not have occurred with all this but lets just say I'm skeptical.

I am a Republican "never Trumper" that voted 3rd party. Put me in the camp of never Trumpers" so turned off by the lefts (and left leaning media) reaction to this election's result (incessant whining about the electoral college which is part of our Constitution and has been in place since the countries birth ranks at the top of my pet peeves) that I am totally turned off.

The election is over. Deal with it, stop crying, and stop with the conspiracy theories already.

[Rocker Ute]

I think if Clinton challenges the election outcome it will be disastrous for the USA. I mean, just think about it. Please, don't do it, Hillary. I'd say the same about Trump.

In this case I feel just the opposite. I think this needs to be investigated and give people the confidence that the electoral process we have is sound. It is funny because I was thinking back when they were claiming attempts to hack the system by the Russians and people assuring that our system was unhackable thinking, "You don't need to hack the whole nation, just key states."

So challenge, investigate and let's get to the truth. It does more harm to the nation to have enemies influencing the outcome.

[Rocker Ute]

I have to kind of chuckle about this discussion. The Republicans have been accusing Democrats of voter fraud for at least the past two elections (and the lefts vehement opposition to common sense voter ID laws seemingly supports the theory).

Now we have the left's version of voter fraud only now it is mysterious computers in isolated counties in the Midwest likely hacked by Putin operatives. I don't pretend to know what may have or may not have occurred with all this but lets just say I'm skeptical.

I am a Republican "never Trumper" that voted 3rd party. Put me in the camp of never Trumpers" so turned off by the lefts (and left leaning media) reaction to this election's result (incessant whining about the electoral college which is part of our Constitution and has been in place since the countries birth ranks at the top of my pet peeves) that I am totally turned off.

The election is over. Deal with it, stop crying, and stop with the conspiracy theories already.

I get where you are coming from, and I too was tired of the incessant wining of voter fraud by the left, but if the system is rigged wouldn't you want to know? I mean, we'd rather string up Pete Rose but in this case it's a call to just let it go?

[LA Ute]

In this case I feel just the opposite. I think this needs to be investigated and give people the confidence that the electoral process we have is sound. It is funny because I was thinking back when they were claiming attempts to hack the system by the Russians and people assuring that our system was unhackable thinking, "You don't need to hack the whole nation, just key states."

So challenge, investigate and let's get to the truth. It does more harm to the nation to have enemies influencing the outcome.

I also think we should find out what happened. But that is different from challenging the outcome, which I think would be disastrous.

[LA Ute]

I thought this was a smart short piece in the NY Times:

*****

If there was a key moment that, in hindsight, should have alerted Republicans and Democrats that Donald Trump was a true threat to win the White House, it was in the first Republican primary debate. As Megyn Kelly confronted him with a litany of his abusive and insulting comments about women (including using words like “fat pigs,” “dogs,” and “disgusting animals”), he interrupted and claimed he’d said those things only about Rosie O’Donnell. The crowd went wild.

One has to live and work well outside the core of blue America to understand how frustrated – no, furious – millions of Americans are with the censorious and scolding progressive impulse that is branded under the catch-all category of “political correctness” or just “P.C.”Never mind that he had actually insulted far more women than just Ms. O’Donnell; he had signaled something important to a crowd desperate for a champion against the progressive elite. He wouldn’t back down. He wouldn’t apologize. He would speak his mind fearlessly.

It’s one thing to support gay marriage, transgender rights, affirmative-action, amnesty for illegal immigrants and large-scale Muslim immigration. They’re ideas worth debating. It’s another thing entirely to write off opponents of progressive ideology as homophobes, transphobes, racists and Islamophobes.

Upholding orthodox Christian views of marriage and human sexuality is not an act of hate. Expressing concern about the effect of large-scale immigration on wages and job opportunities is not an act of racism. And it turns out that people deeply resent being told they’re evil. They resent censorship even more.

This is why many of my pro-Trump friends and neighbors supported him even if they disagreed with his proposed temporary ban on Muslim immigration – or even if they disagreed with his proposed mass deportations. At least his mind was open to unorthodox solutions. At least he wasn’t cowed by a progressive orthodoxy that narrowed choices even as it narrowed minds.

Loathing political correctness carries its own dangers, however. The best responses to P.C. excess are grounded in truth and conviction, not in a defiant spirit that is designed mainly to annoy or enrage. Manners still matter, and in flouting political correctness Trump often used rhetoric that seemed intentionally crafted to reinforce the worst stereotypes of Republicans. In the P.C. wars, both sides now feel empowered, and conflict will rage with no end in sight.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...ices-and-minds

[#1 Utefan]

In this case I feel just the opposite. I think this needs to be investigated and give people the confidence that the electoral process we have is sound. It is funny because I was thinking back when they were claiming attempts to hack the system by the Russians and people assuring that our system was unhackable thinking, "You don't need to hack the whole nation, just key states."

So challenge, investigate and let's get to the truth. It does more harm to the nation to have enemies influencing the outcome.

I don't disagree but I would be willing to wager a significant sum right now that the alleged glitches or supposed fraud turns out to be nothing. Does anyone know who these "computer scientists" are that are the source of these conspiracies? Given the lefts overtop and seemingly never ending reaction to the election results so far, something tells me it is a group with an agenda.

Honestly, with all these protests by former Bernie Sanders supporters (half of whom sound like they didn't even bother to vote), it is starting to feel like we live in a banana republic.

[Rocker Ute]

I also think we should find out what happened. But that is different from challenging the outcome, which I think would be disastrous.

Not trying to be adversarial, just trying to understand the distinction. If they do a study and find that results have been altered how would that be any better than if it was challenged? I tend to think it is worse because a known injustice will be allowed to be carried out.


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[Rocker Ute]

I should also add that while this looks suspicious the odds of it happening still seem pretty low to me. It seems more probable they'll find demographic information tied to the machines in question that caused the discrepancy. Yet it is still worth investigating.


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[Devildog]

I love the whining and the conspiracy theory in this thread. I LOVE IT! Anti-Trump democrats are just as crazy as ANY Trump supporter could be, and you keep showing it over and over.

[Devildog]

All the educated opinion here, and at it's core... just some humans with a specific ideology. Whaaaaa cry me a river. I am so happy to see things shaken up in Washington.

[Devildog]

Say hello to the new Secretary of Defense. Obama or Hillary would never pick a man like this to lead our nation's defense... because they couldn't handle a strong self assured leader and outspoken warrior to run defense. Mattis will be a yes man to nobody... and Trump will probably pick him.

[Rocker Ute]

Shouldn't you be polishing imaginary medals?


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[LA Ute]

Not trying to be adversarial, just trying to understand the distinction. If they do a study and find that results have been altered how would that be any better than if it was challenged? I tend to think it is worse because a known injustice will be allowed to be carried out.


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From my undergraduate poli sci days I remember that in 1960 the voting in Cook County, Illinois (Chicago, Mayor Daley's lair) was very questionable. Kennedy won Illinois narrowly because of a huge margin in that county. Nixon could have challenged the outcome but chose not to because he thought doing so would hurt the country -- there would have been a long, controversial battle with an uncertain outcome. (Tricky Dick had his problems but it seems like he has gotten credit from historians for this one self-sacrificing decision.) in the present political climate I can't imagine anything more divisive than a challenge to he election's outcome. As you've said it's doubtful that anything conclusive could come out of an inquiry anyway.

I am confident I would say the same thing if the parties were reversed.

Here's a bit on the 1960 election:

http://historynewsnetwork.org

[Ma'ake]

Pivoting from the election, I really like the idea of Apple bringing iPhone manufacturing back to the US, from China. The dramatically lower labor costs in China are less relevant, as FoxConn, the Chinese manufacturer of Apple's hardware, has laid off 60,000 workers since 2014, as robotics pick up more of the workload.

China has nudged iPhone's to the sideline in the Chinese domestic market in lieu of domestic phone companies, so there's little damage to be done to Apple in the way of Chinese retaliation.

Tesla's Elon Musk adds some detail to what could be the path forward: Musk is aiming to get the Tesla factory in Fremont, CA completely automated... but it turns out Musk has a soul. Besides striving for environmentally responsible manufacturing, he's behind the minimum salary movement, which could be a possible way forward as a society as the Technology Revolution threatens to replace millions of jobs.

The conservative mindset is that this is a horrific idea, that our youth will sit around, smoke pot and play computer games all day.

But the conservative mindset can't explain how Airbus produces truly excellent airliners, at least as good as Boeing, the capitalist American company. The Airbus engineers should have no motivation to get off the couch every day and produce highly innovative ideas for making their jets better. But they do.

Look for California to lead, again.

[More controversial ideas below]

If red America can't tolerate these radical ideas... Calexit ! "Pacifica" would negotiate favorable trade agreements with a smaller USA, and be free to push on the accelerator in moving forward. Oregon and Washington would probably join, in a heartbeat, as would Hawai'i. Long term agreements with the US and Canada on defense issues would address those concerns.

I would trade homes with LA Ute, he could rejoin his tribe up here in Utah, I would return to my origins in LA, California, Pacifica.

[Rocker Ute]

Having spent the majority of my career in Park City, the capital of California flight, I've never heard the term "California ... leads, again" in a positive way. The consensus of that biased sample is the weather is about the only good thing about CA.


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[#1 Utefan]

Pivoting from the election, I really like the idea of Apple bringing iPhone manufacturing back to the US, from China. The dramatically lower labor costs in China are less relevant, as FoxConn, the Chinese manufacturer of Apple's hardware, has laid off 60,000 workers since 2014, as robotics pick up more of the workload.

China has nudged iPhone's to the sideline in the Chinese domestic market in lieu of domestic phone companies, so there's little damage to be done to Apple in the way of Chinese retaliation.

Tesla's Elon Musk adds some detail to what could be the path forward: Musk is aiming to get the Tesla factory in Fremont, CA completely automated... but it turns out Musk has a soul. Besides striving for environmentally responsible manufacturing, he's behind the minimum salary movement, which could be a possible way forward as a society as the Technology Revolution threatens to replace millions of jobs.

The conservative mindset is that this is a horrific idea, that our youth will sit around, smoke pot and play computer games all day.

But the conservative mindset can't explain how Airbus produces truly excellent airliners, at least as good as Boeing, the capitalist American company. The Airbus engineers should have no motivation to get off the couch every day and produce highly innovative ideas for making their jets better. But they do.

Look for California to lead, again.

[More controversial ideas below]

If red America can't tolerate these radical ideas... Calexit ! "Pacifica" would negotiate favorable trade agreements with a smaller USA, and be free to push on the accelerator in moving forward. Oregon and Washington would probably join, in a heartbeat, as would Hawai'i. Long term agreements with the US and Canada on defense issues would address those concerns.

I would trade homes with LA Ute, he could rejoin his tribe up here in Utah, I would return to my origins in LA, California, Pacifica.

Well, there is Airbus. Generally, however, most European socialistic economies save Germany are in decline and becoming increasing irrelevant globally.

You want manufacturing jobs back in the US? Lower the corporate tax rate like Trump has proposed so US corporations are incentivized to repatriate the billions they've kept overseas. At 35%, we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

Ironically, it is the Obama administration and the left that advocate these high corporate tax rates that disincentivize companies from bringing capital and possible jobs for the middle class back to the US.

I am not a fan of Trump's populist, tariff and anti-trade rhetoric. I think if implemented, it will likely damage the economy (his philosophy on trade is more Democrat than Republican). He is spot on on trying to encourage US companies to repatriate their earnings and encourage investment in growth and jobs here by lowering the corporate tax rate, however.

As for the People's Republic of California, you can have it. They still have tech but a lot of companies are leaving or shifting operations to Texas and more business friendly states. California is one of the most poorly managed and indebted states in the country and gradually headed south

[Ma'ake]

Honestly, with all these protests by former Bernie Sanders supporters (half of whom sound like they didn't even bother to vote), it is starting to feel like we live in a banana republic.

Every banana republic has a strongman. Trump and his family are quickly accumulating power and access at a rate that would make the Somoza family that ruled Nicaragua envious.

(Say what you will about Malia and Sasha Obama - they weren't given top security clearances and weren't suggested by their father as having the potential to make Israel and the Palestinians live in peace. Can you imagine the howling from the right if Obama did?)

Banana Republic, indeed.

[Diehard Ute]

Pivoting from the election, I really like the idea of Apple bringing iPhone manufacturing back to the US, from China. The dramatically lower labor costs in China are less relevant, as FoxConn, the Chinese manufacturer of Apple's hardware, has laid off 60,000 workers since 2014, as robotics pick up more of the workload.

China has nudged iPhone's to the sideline in the Chinese domestic market in lieu of domestic phone companies, so there's little damage to be done to Apple in the way of Chinese retaliation.

Tesla's Elon Musk adds some detail to what could be the path forward: Musk is aiming to get the Tesla factory in Fremont, CA completely automated... but it turns out Musk has a soul. Besides striving for environmentally responsible manufacturing, he's behind the minimum salary movement, which could be a possible way forward as a society as the Technology Revolution threatens to replace millions of jobs.

The conservative mindset is that this is a horrific idea, that our youth will sit around, smoke pot and play computer games all day.

But the conservative mindset can't explain how Airbus produces truly excellent airliners, at least as good as Boeing, the capitalist American company. The Airbus engineers should have no motivation to get off the couch every day and produce highly innovative ideas for making their jets better. But they do.

Look for California to lead, again.

[More controversial ideas below]

If red America can't tolerate these radical ideas... Calexit ! "Pacifica" would negotiate favorable trade agreements with a smaller USA, and be free to push on the accelerator in moving forward. Oregon and Washington would probably join, in a heartbeat, as would Hawai'i. Long term agreements with the US and Canada on defense issues would address those concerns.

I would trade homes with LA Ute, he could rejoin his tribe up here in Utah, I would return to my origins in LA, California, Pacifica.

Come on Ma'ake, you're smarter than this.

The idea that leaving the US is so easy is silly. Canada's defense relies heavily on being the US' neighbor. And you really think there'd be this "hey, you left, but sure we'll still protect you" thing going on?

California needs to stop with this stupid crap and you know it.




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[Ma'ake]

Come on Ma'ake, you're smarter than this.

The idea that leaving the US is so easy is silly. Canada's defense relies heavily on being the US' neighbor. And you really think there'd be this "hey, you left, but sure we'll still protect you" thing going on?

California needs to stop with this stupid crap and you know it.

I don't think it would ever get to California actually breaking off, but if there's anything we've learned recently, it's that aggressive rhetoric and hard-bargaining gets leverage, and in California's case flexibility in forging solutions the rest of the nation might eventually see as good.

The states are laboratories of innovation.

As for defense, the exorbitant prices we pay for systems like the F-35 can't last, and development of high-tech, highly cost effective drones would benefit California, Canada, probably the NATO countries Trump is trying to get reimbursement for our defense expenditures there, and eventually the US taxpayer would benefit. Some competition in defense systems would be good. Trump started that conversation by threatening to reduce our NATO commitment.

In short, I've come around on the idea of Brexit, and as conservative Americans cheerlead the (potential) breakup of the EU, I don't see why a similar thing would have to be a bad thing for the US.

I think the debate is healthy, and California as the magnet for really intelligent immigrants from all over the world, along with bright minds like Elon Musk, are probably the ones to lead us through the technology revolution.

The Utah Republican party and Gary Herbert are almost certainly not the ones to lead us through the changes coming.

[USS Utah]

I thought this was a smart short piece in the NY Times:

*****

If there was a key moment that, in hindsight, should have alerted Republicans and Democrats that Donald Trump was a true threat to win the White House, it was in the first Republican primary debate. As Megyn Kelly confronted him with a litany of his abusive and insulting comments about women (including using words like “fat pigs,” “dogs,” and “disgusting animals”), he interrupted and claimed he’d said those things only about Rosie O’Donnell. The crowd went wild.

One has to live and work well outside the core of blue America to understand how frustrated – no, furious – millions of Americans are with the censorious and scolding progressive impulse that is branded under the catch-all category of “political correctness” or just “P.C.”Never mind that he had actually insulted far more women than just Ms. O’Donnell; he had signaled something important to a crowd desperate for a champion against the progressive elite. He wouldn’t back down. He wouldn’t apologize. He would speak his mind fearlessly.

It’s one thing to support gay marriage, transgender rights, affirmative-action, amnesty for illegal immigrants and large-scale Muslim immigration. They’re ideas worth debating. It’s another thing entirely to write off opponents of progressive ideology as homophobes, transphobes, racists and Islamophobes.

Upholding orthodox Christian views of marriage and human sexuality is not an act of hate. Expressing concern about the effect of large-scale immigration on wages and job opportunities is not an act of racism. And it turns out that people deeply resent being told they’re evil. They resent censorship even more.

This is why many of my pro-Trump friends and neighbors supported him even if they disagreed with his proposed temporary ban on Muslim immigration – or even if they disagreed with his proposed mass deportations. At least his mind was open to unorthodox solutions. At least he wasn’t cowed by a progressive orthodoxy that narrowed choices even as it narrowed minds.

Loathing political correctness carries its own dangers, however. The best responses to P.C. excess are grounded in truth and conviction, not in a defiant spirit that is designed mainly to annoy or enrage. Manners still matter, and in flouting political correctness Trump often used rhetoric that seemed intentionally crafted to reinforce the worst stereotypes of Republicans. In the P.C. wars, both sides now feel empowered, and conflict will rage with no end in sight.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...ices-and-minds

Minds and choices have also been narrowed by conservative orthodoxy. This is the fruit of extremism from both sides.

[USS Utah]

Not trying to be adversarial, just trying to understand the distinction. If they do a study and find that results have been altered how would that be any better than if it was challenged? I tend to think it is worse because a known injustice will be allowed to be carried out.


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It would be better to challenge the outcome based on evidence rather than speculation.

[USS Utah]

Say hello to the new Secretary of Defense. Obama or Hillary would never pick a man like this to lead our nation's defense... because they couldn't handle a strong self assured leader and outspoken warrior to run defense. Mattis will be a yes man to nobody... and Trump will probably pick him.

Mattis is a great pick for SecDef. However, there are some anti-common core folks who are dismayed at Trump's pick for Sec Education, who supports common core, which he vowed to eliminate.

[Ma'ake]

Well, there is Airbus. Generally, however, most European socialistic economies save Germany are in decline and becoming increasing irrelevant globally.

You want manufacturing jobs back in the US? Lower the corporate tax rate like Trump has proposed so US corporations are incentivized to repatriate the billions they've kept overseas. At 35%, we have the highest corporate tax rate in the world.

First of all, any US corporation that pays 35% in taxes deserves to go out of business.

The European experiment of binding nations based on geography has failed, to a significant extent, and the American experiment is fraying. We need to be honest. LA Ute fears the secularization of California, the advance of gay rights / persecution of religious people, and I know a lot of brown people who fear what many other parts of America appear to be becoming.

Why not let this play out a little further - let California / Pacifica sharply curtail 2nd Amendment rights, and expand civil rights for gays, etc. Let them be free to attract talented immigrants from wherever they want, and see what happens. Let them establish manufacturing with a much smaller employment footprint, and tax their cheap exports to the rest of the US and the world, to subsidize a base salary, and see what kind of pent up creativity is unleashed if people work less, but don't go into poverty.

[#1 Utefan]

First of all, any US corporation that pays 35% in taxes deserves to go out of business.

The European experiment of binding nations based on geography has failed, to a significant extent, and the American experiment is fraying. We need to be honest. LA Ute fears the secularization of California, the advance of gay rights / persecution of religious people, and I know a lot of brown people who fear what America appears to be becoming.

Why not let this play out a little further - let California / Pacifica sharply curtail 2nd Amendment rights, and expand civil rights for gays, etc. Let them be free to attract talented immigrants from wherever they want, and see what happens. Let them establish manufacturing with a much smaller employment footprint, and tax their cheap exports to the rest of the US and the world, to subsidize a base salary, and see what kind of pent up creativity is unleashed if people work far less, but don't go into poverty.

If they want to, I say go for it. As I stated pre iously, California is one of the worst managed and indebted states in the country. The high taxes and liberal economic policies are gradually eroding their business base. Add the cost of defense and California would crumble pretty quickly.