Are you or NWUF prepared to defend the president's handling of Syria? The "red line" and all that followed?Originally Posted by concerned
How about Libya? I would like to hear NWUF tell me about the brilliance of that catastrophe.
Is it possible that perhaps his characterization of ISIS as a "jayvee" team was a dumb thing for the president to do?
Just what are the outstanding foreign-policy successes of the Obama administration??
I will stop there.
"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
You have moved the goal posts. The original question was whether I would discredit anything Dick Cheney said. The answer is yes, even if he said the sky is blue. Nothing he has ever said has proven true and he did more damage to American foreign policy than any other person since1900, at least.
Defending obama's foreign policy is a different question. Goldeberg's extensive analysis in the Atlantic last month and his recent follow up is a very insightful analysis of the successes and failures.
I will put this into words that LA will understand.
Dick Cheney writing an article critical of how another president has made mistakes in Iraq (without acknowledging the reasons we were there and without offering anything resembling a solution) would be similar to Barack Obama writing an article decrying how the next president broke the healthcare industry (without acknowledging the ACA and without offering anything resembling a solution).
Let me put it a different way. I think Trump is the worst person to ever win a major party nomination for president, but there is not a single person on the left or in the Democratic party that I want to hear any criticism of Trump from.
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
Make it since 1993. I can't think of anything particularly bad he did as Sec Def to Bush I.
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
A good shortcutI didn't look to see who wrote it. I dismissed it simply because of the poster's identity.
I didn't make myself clear. My fault. My question was really whether people would actually respond to the points Cheney raised, all of which are worthy of consideration, or would respond ad hominem. Both you and NWUF did the latter. You both also changed the subject from the points Cheney raised in his op-ed to GW Bush's prosecution of the Iraq War. The fact is, Iraq was in good shape when Bush left office. Now it's a mess, and that happened in Obama's watch. That's also a fact. After 50 years or so from now, when historians perhaps can be objective about that war, a lot of focus will be placed on Obama's handling of the status of forces agreement negotiations that preceded the ISIS troubles.
It's really just a clash of philosophies we're talking about: conservative/neoconservative foreign policy that believes in projecting American power and defending American interests and in nation-building (that latter part of the philosophy is not one I'm fond of), on the one hand; versus a left-liberal approach (which has been around since George McGovern) that is skeptical of American power and of American exceptionalism generally, and that tends to see the USA as a malign influence in the world that must be restrained. The people on both sides of the debate are sincere. They're not bad people.
"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-20-2016 at 07:20 AM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Wrong board.
"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
This more recent Jeffrey Goldberg piece is very interesting (thank you, concerned). Excerpt:
None of this is meant to be an argument that Obama does enough, or does enough of the right things, in the struggle against ISIS. I could (and will!) write a critique of the administration’s tactical approach, particularly as it relates to Syria. And Obama could bring more emotional intelligence to bear on this problem: He is eloquent in condemning the fearmongers, but he sometimes fails to acknowledge the legitimate fears of non-racist, non-paranoid Americans who would prefer not to be killed by terrorists acting in the name of Islam. The United States is under intermittent attack from an organization called the Islamic State, which, as Graeme Wood has pointed out in this magazine, represents one, extreme, branch of Islam. There is no point in trying to convince Americans that what is happening is not happening. But neither is there a point in encouraging hysteria and division.
Privately, Obama expresses the deepest loathing for ISIS and other radical Islamist groups. ISIS, he has noted, stands for—quite literally—everything he opposes. Nevertheless, his approach to the challenge of Islamist terrorism is sometimes emotionally unsatisfying; it is sometimes insufficient to the challenge; and he himself is sometimes too fatalistic about the possibility of change in the Middle East.
Donald Trump’s approach, on the other hand, is simply catastrophic.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/06/obama-radical-islam/487079/
I gained an appreciation for Obama's views, if Goldberg has them right. (I still don't buy them all.) Why is this type of nuanced thinking hidden, while policy views summarized as "Don't do stupid sh** are made public? Even Hillary Clinton criticized that one. Anyway, it's too bad that it takes a sympathetic interviewer to articulate what the President of the USA really thinks about one of the central national security issue of our time.
Last edited by LA Ute; 06-20-2016 at 09:11 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
It was a sympathetic piece but also underscored that there is no actual foreign policy in the White House (yet also remains a far better policy than anything Trump will establish). At least with HRC we'll see a principled foreign policy again.
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It has been kind of like watching Boylenball: hard to tell what they are trying to do out there. With HRC we won't always like what she's doing but we'll at least be able to tell what it is.
"It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The Boylenball of foreign policy sums that up quite nicely actually. Add to it the ardent defenders of what he is doing, just like Boylen had his, and you've got a near perfect match.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I guess this fits here, since the Congressional sit-in on gun control began with the Orlando murders.
Which Fast Food Joint Did Dems Call During Their Sit-In?
(Hint: It was Chik-fil-a.)
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Admiral James Stavrisis, USN (ret.) on How the Next President Should Fight -- and Defeat -- ISIS:
http://time.com/4379914/next-u-s-president-isis/
"It'd be nice to please everyone but I thought it would be more interesting to have a point of view." -- Oscar Levant
This is Al Qaeda, not ISIS, but it is an interesting wrinkle:
Al Qaeda urges lone wolves to target whites, to avoid 'hate crime' label
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Interesting analysis of ISIS' recruiting techniques, citing the Orlando killer as a typical example.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/isis-and...ism-1467069159
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
An unusually interesting discussion:
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Meanwhile, Iraqi forces have run ISIS out of Fallujah, which is certainly notable. It seems the Iraqis may be starting to better grasp the "you better stick together and defend yourselves, because the US won't be there to rescue you indefinitely" concept. I'll take it!
As far as ISIS instructing lone wolf attackers, to prevent that would require the Edward Snowden all-stars at the NSA to step up their games, and deeper, more systematic monitoring of US citizens, and possibly limiting the firepower that any given wife-beater can assemble. In other words, the "thoughts and prayers" inaction will prevail, especially since football season is coming up.
I would give a higher chance to Trump moving into Buckingham Palace, and giving tips to Her Royal Highness, Queen Elizabeth II, on how to be more "hot", like Ivanka.
You know, on further reflection, this idea has some merit, as it would get The Donald out of America, and distract the British from the political chaos and financial instability they've unleashed upon themselves, and who knows, maybe QE might start chasing Justin Bieber. You just never know.
Bill Maher's racism and hate is just framed in a different way, he isn't much different from Trump in many ways. I find his rhetoric against Islam and the fact it is tolerated chilling.
I thought Michael Steele was the most rational person on that panel.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Yes, and what's worse, he's not funny. He came to a fork in the road - could be truly funny or just preachy and mean, and he took the road more traveled by.
Agreed. I can't stand Maher. His smug "humor" is not funny.
It is his shtick. It draws eyeballs to his show.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The problem is he seems to be a thought leader among some left leaning people. I hear his arguments repeated in a lot of different places as if it is progressive thinking (uf.n is just one place that comes to mind).
I've mentioned this before but after visiting the Dachau concentration camp and seeing that it was right in the middle of town in full view I began to research how the Germans got to the point where that could be tolerated. They are my people after all. The parallels to what is going on with people like Maher and Trump is disturbing. So very subtly it starts with "They're the source of all of our problems..." and "They are trying to attack our way of life..." then it evolves into "They are less than us..." and "They are different from us..." and once people are convinced of that the rest is easy.
The only thing giving me hope is he fact that Trump is plummeting in the polls right now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Just saw the news about Nice, France. At what point do we start to get numb to this? How tragic will that be, if it happens?
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
I would submit we are essentially there. This will descend into some argument by morning time.
'THEY ARE MERKEL'S DEAD!' German far-right blames Angela Merkel’s open-door migrant policy for Berlin truck attack
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/244037...ck-by-refugee/
Things are pretty tense in Europe.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
This is depressing.
Teacher quits after primary school students threaten to behead her
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/3466...-family/#page1
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
What do you all think? Much of this resonates with me. Then again....
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
The obvious lesson about terrorists — they hate us for who we are, not what we do
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...not-what-we-do
We backwards “right-wingers” who express pointed concerns about militant Islam are often dismissed by progressives as reactionary and provocative, even as bigots. But Islamists are not at war with conservatives. They’re at war with Western society generally. And among the things they most loathe is its permissiveness.
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