^^^Originally Posted by Utebiquitous
This.
^^^
This.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
All the pundits have the sec getting 3 (playoff, peach and sugar). I didn't think that was possible but guess so.
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"Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum
"And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla
I don't have a problem playing BYU, I'm not "afraid" of losing to BYU... but I'm seriously beginning to think if Utah is offered a slot in the Vegas Bowl, we should decline. If that means we don't go bowling, I'm OK with that.
I'm sure the players want to play the game, but I think we need to start thinking about the bigger group of people that are associated with Utah... and with BYU.
Anyone who is intimately familiar with these football programs can confirm that the players take these games less seriously than many of the fans do. It really bugs some fans that some of our players are actually friends with some of their players.
Beginning with the 90s with Ron McBride being able to make the rivalry more even, with Meyer, and certainly with Whitt, the rise of Utah has generated enormous anger among BYU fans, understandably. I've been a Utah fan since the 70s, and I will admit to getting out-of-my-mind angry at some of the results from BYU's golden era. BYU fans have had basketball recently to ease the football emotion, but the last three years have cut off that source of positive emotion.
When I see Y fans state - and get agreement from others - that Emery has replaced Max Hall as their favorite Cougar athlete, following last night's game, that's a clear sign that the disturbing increases in dysfunctional anger have not abated, with two years off in football. The pent up anger is pushing us toward a boilover.
This rivalry truly brings out the very worst in some people. An increasingly large group of people. Ask the spouses of fans in each fan base, take a poll. We all know this is the case.
If a truly disturbed person can be found among a thousand people, we're talking about a few dozen people who might be capable of doing something truly crazy, like killing somebody. After the 2009 game - which BYU won! - the Max Hall rant, the issue with Whitt's wife getting assaulted, the multiple fisticuffs, all were signs to me that things were getting seriously out of hand.
How many people - in both fanbases - have stopped going to road games in the rivalry game because of the ill-will and potential for something bad to happen? It's not just a few people looking for excuses to get out of the game - it's a LOT of people who are pretty perceptive, and rational about how they live their lives.
So, an even better idea is to get a game together where there can be thousands and thousands of fans, from both schools, a made-for-TV battle for the ages? I'm sorry, but I don't think so.
I'll go to the game in Vegas, if that's where we go, but I'll donate TWICE as much money to the Crimson Club and the Athletic Department if we decline the invitation.
Somebody will die at one of these games, eventually. I think a lot of rational, experienced, informed observers would not disagree with this prediction, given a whole host of factors and recent experience.
Shame on the Vegas Bowl for wanting to pit two irrationally angry fan bases against each other, for the sake of TV ratings. They don't care. They want to make money.
But shame on Utah Athletics if we don't do something to detoxify this rivalry. If that means being accused of being chicken, or being fearful of BYU, or whatever, I can handle that. Wiser, cooler minds need to lead, here.
Last edited by Ma'ake; 12-03-2015 at 07:58 PM.
Ok, maake, you're a good dude, but this is batshit crazy. Utah-byu is a toxic rivalry and should not be played? Try telling that to Ohio st- Michigan or Alabama-auburn or even oregon- Oregon st. If you think the rivalry is out of control, you should get out more.
Congratulations terrorists. It appears that you have won. 😢
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Last edited by Dwight Schr-Ute; 12-03-2015 at 08:15 PM.
The internet magnifies the crazy. It gives a voice to those willing to type the most, and sometimes volume is mistaken for wisdom or experience.
i see a lot of the crazy you are referencing on the Internet, but very little of it in real life. It's not impossible for something really bad to happen, think of the Giants fan at the Dodger game a couple of years ago. But I think the chances are pretty small.
“To me there is no dishonor in being wrong and learning. There is dishonor in willful ignorance and there is dishonor in disrespect.” James Hatch, former Navy Seal and current Yale student.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTc--4jz0GQ
I'm sure you'd love to play those other schools. If ESPN's PAC 12 beat writer is to be believed, the other bowls aren't interested in a Booker-less Utes team.
I get that Pudge but this is where Larry Scott needs to make his money. If I was Chris Hill I'd tell Larry Scott that the Vegas Bowl is unacceptable simply based on respect for where the U finished. Add to that the school's record in bowl games and you have a near guarantee of a competitive game.
I'm with Maake - decline the invitation if it's to the Vegas Bowl but not because you don't want to play BYU, but because you're at the top of the conference and should be represented by your commissioner as such.
It got three last year (playoff, Peach, Orange)
In mostly full agreement. Ma'ake makes some good points about the mental instability of a segment of BYU fans, but we should never be making decisions to appease them or keep them from losing their minds. There has ALWAYS been that kind of nutjob in the rivalry -- any rivalry. Alabama had a fan poison the trees at Toomer's Corner in Auburn. BYU had a fan jump out of the stands to attack a cheerleader (and subsequently get the shit beaten out of him by said cheerleader).
BYU fans became a lot less crazy to me once I stopped engaging them on social media. If Ute fans are bothered by crazy BYU fans, it's safe for me to say based on experience that you're part of the problem. (I would say the exact same thing to BYU fans who are bothered by the nutjobs within our fanbase -- and they exist all the same, despite our wishes that they didn't).
You guys are awesome, and I love you as Utes, but this is asinine, and a lie, sorry!
All of y'all that are advocating some "nobler intention" for declining an invite to the Veg, are letting your inner "yewt" show. In fact, it makes me question whether you guys are emotionally over-invested in the rivalry? Seriously, can somebody please show me an example of another mid-tier p-5 conference team that was so "big for its britches" that they declined an invite to a bowl that they deemed "inferior?" Also please show how it worked out well for that program.
If the Veg was inviting Utah and Boise State to play each other, I would be willing to guarantee that there wouldn't be as many panties in wads on this site. Or maybe the wads just wouldn't be wound up as tight, or maybe everyone here goes commando, and the issue is moot!! My point is, no matter which way you spin it, the distaste some here have for the vegas bowl is absolutely because it features a matchup with BYU, and so many Utah fans were so emotionally caught up in the rivalry, that they welcomed a final "we are better than you so we don't want to play you anymore" end to it in their own minds. the fact that fate is pulling the rivalry back together is more than they can bear.
Could Utah declining an invitation to a bowl that graciously hosted them one year previously, be a bigger drama-queen move? Would a "blue collar" analogized football team whine over an unsatisfactory bowl invite? Does winning one more game than last year make us so much better than the Veg? If Utah football is so much better than the Veg, then it should have showed it on the field and won the damn games it needed to avoid it.
I think we Utah fans may be suffering from massive head syndrome (applejack will back me up, that this is a real syndrome). It is characterized by an ego disproportionate to a persons actual standing in life. I am used to seeing BYU fans act a little delusional about their national prominence/importance, but seeing fellow Utes act this way makes me want to barf. Seriously, Utah football is in no position to turn up its nose on the Vegas Bowl.
as always I say this with all due respect, my Utah bros!
Last edited by wally; 12-04-2015 at 11:07 AM.
Wally,
I'm going to stick by my disillusionment. Let's be real - no way Chris Hill declines any invitation. He can't. But I can tell you from a conversation I had yesterday with a friend in athletics, if the Vegas Bowl becomes a reality, Hill will wish he could decline for both my reasons and Maake's.
I assure you my comment has nothing to do with the rivalry. I like the rivalry. I have no fear of playing/losing to BYU. I do feel/know we deserve better. We were there last year as a middle of the Pac-12 team. This year we are a top of the Pac-12 team (third or fourth) so yes, winning one more game than last year matters a hell of a lot. We finished fourth in the south last season losing one more game. This year we finished tied for first. It may be one game but there's a significant difference this season. This is a principle argument. You are what your record says you are.
If next year, we win seven or eight games, finish lower in the league and end up in the Vegas Bowl, so be it. That makes sense to me. Just like it did last year.
i would drop to the cactus bowl. Jan 2 is a better date, would have a lower tier P-5 opponent (maybe K state), but I understand it has a bigger payout.
I hear you bro, but at the end of the day, bowl games are a beauty contest. If Utah lands at the Veg, and we are being honest, then can we acknowledge that Utah just ain't beautiful enough to warrant a better invite and let the delusions of grandeur die? I would really prefer that our fanbase not whine and sqeal like gut-shot pigs about this matter, but hey, maybe we are exactly the same as whiny BYU fans that believe the college football gods owe them something more, just wearing red instead of blue?
You've always come across to me as a reasonable guy. Now you are suggesting that a football or basketball game will turn into a knife fight? I don't often associate outside of church with any Utah or BYU fans so don't have a good sense of what is happening on a day to day basis. What is it you're seeing along the Wasatch Front that leads you to believe there's legitimate violence in the future of these two schools?
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
As I understand it, each school gets 7,500 tickets, and the vast majority of the other 25k are up for grabs, first come, first served. As it stands, BYU fans are buying every ticket in sight right now. Yeah, we'll get our 7,500 ticket allotment, but, in the end it'll be 75% or more BYU fans, based on nothing more than timing of the invitation.
I'd tell the Veg to suck it unless they've held a whole lot more than 7,500 tickets for Utah.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
“Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman
"You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb
"Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.
Ah, yet another strike against the Vegas Bowl that I had not processed: Anyone who travels to the game will not able to see (in full) the biggest non-conference basketball game we've had in....a long time (ever?). Fans would be able to watch both on TV from home, which may only encourage fans to stay home.
It kind of begs the question: why isn't the Cactus Bowl above the Vegas Bowl in the first place? Literally everything about it is better. In fact, you may be able to argue that Cactus should be above the Sun Bowl as well, although I haven't looked up the payout for the Sun.
My somewhat sour comments:
- We aren't going to turn down the Vegas Bowl if that's the offer we get. Utebiquitous is right.
- Larry Scott should earn his money and use what influence he can to keep us out of that bowl. 'biq is right about that too.
- It will be a downer to have to play BYU from a program perspective, not a personal one. You can't make the case that playing them in that bowl would be good for the program. It will make some Ute fans happy and a great many BYU fans very, very happy. That's all.
- If it happens I will certainly watch it if I can. My wife and I might go to NY to see the Duke Game in Madison Square Garden.
You can say that playing BYU in Vegas would be a fine end to this season, but good luck putting lipstick on that pig.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Are you trolling us? Just wondering. Haven't seen you here.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Yes. He's that wannabe Red Sox fan on Cougarstadium.
i presume chronology. The Vegas Bowl was locked into the 6th pick by contract before there was an agreement with the cactus bowl, which was relegated to 7th.
This is a very legitimate complaint. By the time BYU's opponent is announced, BYU will have had a full week to buy up the most/best tickets.
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Again, why is this? Why would playing our arch-rival (and winning!) be bad for the program? Why would it be worse than the other options from a program perspective? Someone explain it to me without vagaries like "East Coast Media" or "deserve." Playing in some lower tier bowl (which is all we have a shot at) is not going to boast the program, so why not Vegas? Why not BYU?
Last edited by Applejack; 12-04-2015 at 03:12 PM.
- First, Of course we are not turning the invite down, That would be insane.
- second, do you think that Utah's/Chris Hills dissatisfaction at going to the Veg, is anywhere on Larry Scotts radar as something that he should effort to change? Larry Scott is gonna keep his job by keeping the top revenue generators in the conference happy, we are small potatoes in that regard, if we're being honest.
- How is getting a free rivalry game in a non-rivalry year a downer from a program perspective? Utah crawled out of football obscurity through the 80's, 90's and 2000's in part by turning the tide in the rivalry, as a first step, then dominating it the program turned the corner. It is an integral part of our past, and playing BYU in a bowl game after 2 full years off, is simply stated awesome. The first company I ever worked for changed CEOs during my tenure and the new guy wanted to expand rapidly into different markets. Well, the effort flopped as the corporate identity suffered from turning away from the company's roots. The Utah/BYU rivalry is part of our root system. It is part of our identity. We can choose to hate it or love it, but turning away from it is to lose part of our identity.
Finally, Maybe we are the pig in lipstick that the "higher" bowls don't want? I hope that people in the program that are whining about it (if there are any) cut it out, and put on a show at the Veg that makes whatever bowls turned us down take note for next time, and then let's get the rivalry started!!!
Finally, Finally, tell me there is not just some part of us that believes that football Gods exist and destined this to happen (if it happens)!
We just disagree. I still love you as my Ute brother. (Virtual man-hug here.) It won't be bad for the program, it just won't be good. We are supposed to beat non-P5 schools, so winning does nothing for us. Losing is an embarrassment. That's about it. Nothing to gain.
You'll forgive me for resorting to a vagary: If we play someone else, we at least get some modicum of additional exposure to their fans and their sports news media (and the media's readers). It's not huge, but it is something. We're playing BYU in 9 months anyway (and yearly thereafter) and can get the goodies you want from beating them then.
Besides, why do you care? You're on the East Coast. Take the train up to NY and watch the Utes play Duke that day.
Last edited by LA Ute; 12-04-2015 at 03:49 PM.
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
--Yeats
“True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”
--John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell
Beating up on BYU is always a good thing. We need to show the local recruits where the green grass is.
That being said, I would have liked to play a Big-10 or ACC team for east coast exposure. A Utah/BYU game will only have local interest.
I think it would be disappointing, to say the least, if BYU played in literally the same bowl game as Utah. It's even more disappointing that it would happen in one of the best seasons in Utah history.
BYU is the insignificant independent. They don't get to play in the same caliber bowl games as Utah. At least they shouldn't be able to when Utah has a great season. Maybe during the down years, but certainly not during a year when Utah was one of the best teams in the Pac 12.
No freaking way. Utah did the Vegas thing last year, and proved they deserved better. Utah is much better this year.
There should be a very clear understanding with recruits that BYU is nowhere near Utah's level. And that can't happen if Utah finishes up one of the best seasons in Utah history by playing in the same bowl game as BYU.
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