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Thread: An officer down in my neighborhood

  1. #91
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #92
    Did this officer have a long, clean record of service up to this point? If so, I'd reprimand him and forgive him, especially if he genuinely feels bad about losing it.

  3. #93
    What I don't understand in all of this is up to the point of when things getting crazy it was obviously just two people trying to do their jobs and doing what their supervisors demanded. Why not get their supervisors talking to each other and sort it out. She was clearly trying to comply with the cop's request by contacting various supervisors, it wasn't just her being belligerent.

    As a cop I would be worried that if the draw was done illegally it would later be inadmissible in court too.

    Paul Cassell's take was pretty interesting: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commen...s-complicated/


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  4. #94
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    What I don't understand in all of this is up to the point of when things getting crazy it was obviously just two people trying to do their jobs and doing what their supervisors demanded. Why not get their supervisors talking to each other and sort it out. She was clearly trying to comply with the cop's request by contacting various supervisors, it wasn't just her being belligerent.

    As a cop I would be worried that if the draw was done illegally it would later be inadmissible in court too.

    Paul Cassell's take was pretty interesting: http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commen...s-complicated/
    The Cassell op-ed is enlightening. If the officer hadn't lost it this could have ended without all the drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Did this officer have a long, clean record of service up to this point? If so, I'd reprimand him and forgive him, especially if he genuinely feels bad about losing it.
    The article I linked to is from a libertarian publication that leans anti-cop. I'll leave it to the SLPD to sort this out. I doubt that officer will ever be back on the blood draw detail, however.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 09-02-2017 at 12:29 PM.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #95
    Another reasonable solution given the apparent impasse would be to have the hospital do the blood draw but retain possession of it until the issue could be sorted out, or they could get a warrant, since time was of the essence regarding his potential BAC.

  6. #96
    Union doubling down on Wubbels incident......


    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45952173&nid=148
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  7. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    Union doubling down on Wubbels incident......


    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45952173&nid=148
    Hartney's comments deserve a laugh track behind them. What a stooge.

    I've spoken to officer Payne myself and he said, 'Yes, of course I could have done things differently.' But once he made the decision to make the arrest, he needs to follow through. And he did follow through,"

    Based on what little he says he has seen, Hartney believes Payne gave Wubbels ample time to peacefully put her hands behind her back before arresting her more forcefully.
    "I would say yes, because in that video I saw, I could see that she was informed that she was under arrest. I saw her swat officer Payne's hand away using her hand. I saw her back up. I saw her spin around. There was lots of movements there," Hartney said.

    He also noted that "any resisting of arrest, it's embarrassing and it does not look good. There's no way it ever can. It's odd to say, but known criminals are easier to arrest than a first-time offender because they know the process: they turn around, they put their hands behind their back, we put handcuffs on them and escort them to the car."


    Last edited by UtahsMrSports; 09-28-2017 at 05:13 PM.

  8. #98
    Payne terminated. Brown demoted. Appeals and lawsuits likely to follow........

    https://www.ksl.com/?sid=46118645&ni...tenant-demoted
    “Children and dogs are as necessary to the welfare of the country as Wall Street and the railroads.” -- Harry S. Truman

    "You never soar so high as when you stoop down to help a child or an animal." -- Jewish Proverb

    "Three-time Pro Bowler Eric Weddle the most versatile, and maybe most intelligent, safety in the game." -- SI, 9/7/15, p. 107.

  9. #99
    That seems a little harsh, but maybe I haven't followed the story close enough.


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  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    That seems a little harsh, but maybe I haven't followed the story close enough.


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    I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone, but just watching that video, even once, shows that he has no business being a police officer. I don't see what other choice they had.

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone
    I think this matters. If he's always beeb a great cop, i have no problem forgiving this mistake. I imagine they want to do that but can't because the video went viral, and we are really unforgiving towards people we don't know.

  12. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by UtahsMrSports View Post
    I don't know how the rest of Payne's career has gone, but just watching that video, even once, shows that he has no business being a police officer. I don't see what other choice they had.
    He probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or wear a mustache either.

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    I think this matters. If he's always beeb a great cop, i have no problem forgiving this mistake. I imagine they want to do that but can't because the video went viral, and we are really unforgiving towards people we don't know.
    FWIW, a guy I trust who is familiar with Payne had a very low opinion of him before this happened as an officer.

    I mentioned elsewhere that I don't think the sentence he has received (as dealt by public opinion) truly matches the crime, meaning he has been so publicly castigated that he probably won't be able to get a job anywhere. However, I also believe he probably should have lost his job with the SLCPD. Guys going nuts in a non-hostile non-urgent situation should probably not be out there protecting the public. Hopefully that distinction makes sense.

  14. #104

    An officer down in my neighborhood

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    He probably shouldn't be allowed to own a gun or wear a mustache either.
    We have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    We have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
    I don't care. He is no longer worthy of his mustache card.

  16. #106
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    An officer down in my neighborhood

    This seems to fit here better than anywhere else.

    The NFL Stops Indulging a Dangerous Narrative

    By Jason L. Riley
    May 29, 2018 7:20 p.m. ET

    Is the National Foodball League’s new national-anthem policy a sop to President Trump or a nod to the millions of football fans who were beginning to think the people in charge of the country’s most popular professional sport were losing their way?

    After two seasons of sheepish thumb-twiddling, Commissioner Roger Goodell announced last week that players will now be required to stand for the playing of the “The Star-Spangled Banner” or remain in the locker room until the anthem has been performed. No more kneeling before the television cameras to protest this or that social cause ahead of game time on any given Sunday. Teams will be fined if players violate the new rule.

    Mr. Trump, a harsh critic of the player protests, offered support for the new policy and called for the league to go further. “I don’t think people should be staying in the locker rooms,” he told “Fox & Friends.” “You have to stand proudly for the national anthem. Or you shouldn’t be playing, you shouldn’t be there. Maybe you shouldn’t be in the country.”

    It’s doubtful many Americans believe kneeling for the anthem is a firing offense—let alone a deportable one. And the Supreme Court has held that such protests are constitutionally protected. Mindful of First Amendment values, the league is wise to give the athletes safe harbor if they don’t want to stand for the anthem. The protesting players, who say they are calling attention to police treatment of black criminal suspects, among other causes, are free to showcase their higher consciousness at other times and in other places. Just not on the field before kickoff.

    Mr. Goodell said in a statement that the goal of the new policy is to “keep our focus on the game and the extraordinary athletes who play it—and on our fans who enjoy it.” That makes perfect sense. What’s odd is how long it took for the league management to realize that it was out of step with so many ticket holders and viewers. A Yahoo Sports/YouGov survey released last week found that 53% of self-described NFL fans support the policy change while only 32% oppose it. The general public supports the policy by a 16-point margin.

    Those numbers haven’t moved much since Colin Kaepernick, a former backup quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, first took a knee during the anthem at a preseason game in 2016. Polls have consistently shown that Americans oppose this behavior. Mr. Trump isn’t the only person in the country who tunes into the NFL to watch, you know, football.

    But the protests have been more than an annoying distraction for sports fans. On a more substantive level, they have been used by political progressives and the mainstream media to advance a dangerous antipolice narrative at odds with the available empirical data. An increase in the coverage of police shootings, thanks to social media and cable news, has been presented as evidence of an increase in the number of police shootings. Statistically rare and isolated incidents are offered as evidence of an epidemic.

    In fact, police use of lethal force has been falling for decades. Police shootings in New York City are down by more than 90% since the early 1970s. In Chicago, shootings involving police fell by more than half—to 44 from 107—between 2011 and 2015, according to a database compiled by the Chicago Tribune. That means police-involved shootings represented just over 1% of total shootings in the Windy City in 2015. Over the same five-year period, police in other major cities with sizable minority populations, including Los Angeles, Houston and Philadelphia, resorted to lethal force less frequently than Chicago police officers.

    A recent study published in the Journal of Trauma and Acute Surgery assessed more than a million service calls to police departments in North Carolina, Louisiana and Arizona and found that cops used physical force in the course of arrests less than 1% of the time.

    Writing earlier this month about the study’s findings, the Manhattan Institute’s Rafael Mangual lamented “a media landscape that regularly devotes front pages and opening monologues to graphic cases of police force, against racial minorities in particular” without providing proper context. “Despite the slim chances of being subjected to police violence, many Americans continue to harbor fear of the police, substantially attributable to near-constant coverage of isolated incidents.”

    The NFL’s indulgence of this false narrative perpetrated by the political left has contributed to this undermining of social trust. Even those of us who don’t watch football should be grateful for the new policy.

    Appeared in the May 30, 2018, print edition.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nfl...ive-1527636018

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  17. #107
    Senior Member Scorcho's Avatar
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    truth can be stranger than fiction


  18. #108
    Yikes! Definitely more to the story there.

  19. #109
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

    Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...anged-writing/

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

    Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...anged-writing/
    It’s not bad, although I still think he’s throwing out all kinds of stuff just for attention.

    His statements about combat are uninformed.

    An officer I work with, who I happened to train, had been in the military for years and has done combat tours without harm

    In March of 2014 he and another officer were shot in downtown salt lake. He suffered injuries which kept him off working the streets until this year, and some of his injuries will never fully heal.

    While he was out he was assigned to the training unit, and with his military experience he was wondering what the odds were he’d be shot in the US and not in combat

    So he crunched the numbers, and discovered a police officer is statistically more likely to be shot than a combat soldier. It’s a small margin, but it exists.

    Now, he mentions learning from combat soldiers. Something we already do, but at the same time, there’s a need to retrain soldiers who become police officers.

    Military rules of enhancement are basically someone shoots at you, you shoot back. It doesn’t matter where your rounds hit, that’s part of war.

    We don’t get that luxury. We’re accountable for every single round. Having never used deadly force, but been on scene when others have, I have had my gun and magazines downloaded in an interrogation room on camera.

    So when we get a soldier in to law enforcement they often have great technical skills, but we have to teach them how to do what we do.

    As I’ve always said there are bad police shootings but they’re very rare. There are instances of racial bias as well, although I think that’s is rare and continues to decrease. I don’t know that this narrative will ever stop, simply because regardless of the reason an officer takes action, someone will claim a bias, even if there wasn’t one.

    The situation in Dallas is NOT a police shooting. It’s a police officer who used force off duty. While that invoked the increased investigations of an on duty incident, it certainly should not be looked at as such. (In Salt Lake an officer discharging their weapon starts 5 investigations. A citizen doing so starts 1)

    I could have shot several people in my career. I haven’t. I’m glad I was able to do something else, but sometimes there isn’t. Almost every veteran officer I know has similar stories

    This is always going to be a conversation. I appreciate the author changing his stance some, but I also believe there’s still more to be done so we can all be on the same page. (Salt Lake has a TON of opportunities for citizens to get involved, yet activists continue to demand control, not involvement)



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  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I thought this was a very thoughtful bit of soul-searching by David French, who seems like very honest and compassionate writer.

    Why I Changed the Way I Write about Police Shootings

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...anged-writing/
    That was a refreshing piece to read.

  22. #112
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    It’s not bad, although I still think he’s throwing out all kinds of stuff just for attention.

    His statements about combat are uninformed.

    An officer I work with, who I happened to train, had been in the military for years and has done combat tours without harm

    In March of 2014 he and another officer were shot in downtown salt lake. He suffered injuries which kept him off working the streets until this year, and some of his injuries will never fully heal.

    While he was out he was assigned to the training unit, and with his military experience he was wondering what the odds were he’d be shot in the US and not in combat

    So he crunched the numbers, and discovered a police officer is statistically more likely to be shot than a combat soldier. It’s a small margin, but it exists.

    Now, he mentions learning from combat soldiers. Something we already do, but at the same time, there’s a need to retrain soldiers who become police officers.

    Military rules of enhancement are basically someone shoots at you, you shoot back. It doesn’t matter where your rounds hit, that’s part of war.

    We don’t get that luxury. We’re accountable for every single round. Having never used deadly force, but been on scene when others have, I have had my gun and magazines downloaded in an interrogation room on camera.

    So when we get a soldier in to law enforcement they often have great technical skills, but we have to teach them how to do what we do.

    As I’ve always said there are bad police shootings but they’re very rare. There are instances of racial bias as well, although I think that’s is rare and continues to decrease. I don’t know that this narrative will ever stop, simply because regardless of the reason an officer takes action, someone will claim a bias, even if there wasn’t one.

    The situation in Dallas is NOT a police shooting. It’s a police officer who used force off duty. While that invoked the increased investigations of an on duty incident, it certainly should not be looked at as such. (In Salt Lake an officer discharging their weapon starts 5 investigations. A citizen doing so starts 1)

    I could have shot several people in my career. I haven’t. I’m glad I was able to do something else, but sometimes there isn’t. Almost every veteran officer I know has similar stories

    This is always going to be a conversation. I appreciate the author changing his stance some, but I also believe there’s still more to be done so we can all be on the same page. (Salt Lake has a TON of opportunities for citizens to get involved, yet activists continue to demand control, not involvement)
    Excellent info. Thanks for posting. This subject's complexity is amazing.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #113
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Diehard, this looks like a training failure by the Chicago PD. Fair guess?

    Officer shoots, kills armed security guard outside south suburban bar

    https://wgntv.com/2018/11/11/multipl...source=twitter

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Diehard, this looks like a training failure by the Chicago PD. Fair guess?

    Officer shoots, kills armed security guard outside south suburban bar

    https://wgntv.com/2018/11/11/multipl...source=twitter
    No where near enough information there to draw any conclusions.

    That’s the hardest part of these investigations. The public can say whatever they want....investigating agencies can’t say anything, so no one really knows what happened.


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  25. #115
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diehard Ute View Post
    No where near enough information there to draw any conclusions.

    That’s the hardest part of these investigations. The public can say whatever they want....investigating agencies can’t say anything, so no one really knows what happened.


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    Right, I meant to say "based on this information," but I forgot.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Right, I meant to say "based on this information," but I forgot.
    Without seeing the investigation results I’d never comment....this stuff is just so complex.

    Many never realize the off duty Ogden PD Officer at Trolley Square was the reported “second gunman” and very easily could have been shot in the chaos. He was lucky Sgt Oblad was a square away guy who picked up on physical clues and realized he was a cop.


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