BYU facing discrimination accusations

[Ma'ake]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3459506-1...discrimination

Religious freedom vs individual rights, round 173.

No idea how far the law school accreditation investigation goes, but this FreeBYU group is bringing the attention in the court of public opinion.

The LGBT angle is one thing, but the disaffected LDS students facing disciplinary action is another. A guy I've known since childhood had a scholarship to BYU, and after his mission decided he didn't believe anymore, but went through the religious motions to get his degree.

My hunch is the legal aspect is a non-starter, but the PR aspect will fester.

EDIT - a sub plot will be how this issue is covered by the D-News.

[SeattleUte]

I just finished Michel Houellebecq's "Submission". I've read all of his other novels except his debut and have enjoyed all of them. This one is about the election of a Muslim Brotherhood candidate to the presidency of France; coincidentally the book was released on the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacres. The protagonist is a professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris), which, as a result of political deal-making, is given to the Muslims to turn into an Islamic university--it winds up looking very much like BYU, but more moderate (for one thing, they bend the rules on alcohol). The professors must convert and sign a kind of honor code agreement, or accept early retirement with full pension.

The prospect of polygamy with the wives inevitably selected from the now all-Muslim student body, and substantially increased pay, is what's interesting to our nihilistic protagonist. Of course Houellebecq's characters are not admirable; but in an ironic way they always make me examine what makes life and its tedium, aggravations, and inevitable horrors and ultimate oblivion worth living. There is also some excellent, highly entertaining satire. There's a lot of hilarious stuff about how religion really is winning and secularism and Western Civilization are "putrefied" and doomed. However, Houellebecq is quite indifferent to novel mechanics and artistry. So don't read him for that.

This book ought to interest Mormons because you see how similar Mormonism is to middle or upper middle class or Saudi-style Islam. The linked article from the New York Times made me think the same thing.http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.

[Two Utes]

I just finished Michel Houellebecq's "Submission". I've read all of his other novels except his debut and have enjoyed all of them. This one is about the election of a Muslim Brotherhood candidate to the presidency of France; coincidentally the book was released on the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacres. The protagonist is a professor at the Sorbonne (University of Paris), which, as a result of political deal-making, is given to the Muslims to turn into an Islamic university--it winds up looking very much like BYU, but more moderate (for one thing, they bend the rules on alcohol). The professors must convert and sign a kind of honor code agreement, or accept early retirement with full pension.

The prospect of polygamy with the wives inevitably selected from the now all-Muslim student body, and substantially increased pay, is what's interesting to our nihilistic protagonist. Of course Houellebecq's characters are not admirable; but in an ironic way they always make me examine what makes life and its tedium, aggravations, and inevitable horrors and ultimate oblivion worth living. There is also some excellent, highly entertaining satire. There's a lot of hilarious stuff about how religion really is winning and secularism and Western Civilization are "putrefied" and doomed. However, Houellebecq is quite indifferent to novel mechanics and artistry. So don't read him for that.

This book ought to interest Mormons because you see how similar Mormonism is to middle or upper middle class or Saudi-style Islam. The linked article from the New York Times made me think the same thing.http://nyti.ms/1PNALKH

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.

The article is fascinating.

[LA Ute]

The LDS Church really ought to consider a merger or a coalition with this element of Islam. There is a lot in common; they are the two distinct religious movements that are most alike. It could be the only hope for the LDS movement.

What a great idea.

[Two Utes]

What a great idea.

Saudi Islam is just Mormonism on steroids.

[LA Ute]

Saudi Islam is just Mormonism on steroids.

Yeah, well, minus the 13 Articles of Faith and a few other basic tenets. Then there's the facial hair thing. Maybe we could work out a compromise -- mustaches are OK? Would they agree to reduce burkas to maybe elbow-length and ankle-length -- with a little face showing as well? Bacon would also be a big issue.

[Two Utes]

Yeah, well, minus the 13 Articles of Faith and a few other basic tenets. Then there's the facial hair thing. Maybe we could work out a compromise -- mustaches are OK? Would they agree to reduce burkas to maybe elbow-length and ankle-length -- with a little face showing as well? Bacon would also be a big issue.

You guys would have to work out the modesty issue. Shoulders and knees are naughty on your world, while shoulders, knees hair and neck are naughty in theirs. You might be able to reach a compromise.

[LA Ute]

You guys would have to work out the modesty issue. Shoulders and knees are naughty on your world, while shoulders, knees hair and neck are naughty in theirs. You might be able to reach a compromise.

Then there's murdering daughters when they are raped, in order to preserve the family honor. Would you and SU represent the church in working out a compromise on that one?

[SeattleUte]

Leaving the terrorists and radicals aside, Mormonism is the New World's Islam, and each has a like love-hate relationship with Euro/American secularism. I say love-hate because Mormonism and Islam alike is inextricably tied to and reliant upon modern secularism in a way that neither recognizes. So many Mormons are even now poor, brown, disdained immigrants (like Muslims in Europe). Mormonism and Islam each was started and took root at the fringes of and in the sticks outside of great and powerful secular cultures. The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork. Granted, the D&C is more like the Koran than the Book of Mormon is.

[LA Ute]

The founding mythology, the theology, the moral code, the attitude toward females, sexuality and gays, and food and drink codes are the same--the only difference is pork.

This just makes more clear our need for you and Two Utes to work out some compromises. Maybe in the unified faith we can throw gays to their deaths from lower floors of buildings and perhaps not hang them? Regarding women, see my earlier post about the amount of skin that can be shown. Theologically we have to do something about the difference between the Godhead and Allah, not to mention the whole Messiah thing. Also, how does Islam feel about Coca-Cola? I'm not up to speed on that one.

[SeattleUte]

This just makes more clear our need for you and Two Utes to work out some compromises. Maybe in the unified faith we can throw gays to their deaths from lower floors of buildings and perhaps not hang them? Regarding women, see my earlier post about the amount of skin that can be shown. Theologically we have to do something about the difference between the Godhead and Allah, not to mention the whole Messiah thing. Also, how does Islam feel about Coca-Cola? I'm not up to speed on that one.

LA, your post paints all Muslims with a single broad brush and I don't approve of it. Islam is very diverse. We're not talking about those Muslims, but the ones who are more just like Mormons, which, frankly, is the largest share of Muslims.

[LA Ute]

LA, your post paints all Muslims with a single broad brush and I don't approve of it. Islam is very diverse. We're not talking about those Muslims, but the ones who are more just like Mormons, which, frankly, is the largest share of Muslims.

Well, now that it's clear which segment of Islam you're saying is like Mormonism, we can have a real conversation. (Forgive me for assuming you were making an invidious comparison. You have to admit you have a track record in that regard.) Also, for the record, I know you were kidding about the merger. I was kidding back atcha.

[LA Ute]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3459506-1...discrimination

Religious freedom vs individual rights, round 173.

No idea how far the law school accreditation investigation goes, but this FreeBYU group is bringing the attention in the court of public opinion.

The LGBT angle is one thing, but the disaffected LDS students facing disciplinary action is another. A guy I've known since childhood had a scholarship to BYU, and after his mission decided he didn't believe anymore, but went through the religious motions to get his degree.

My hunch is the legal aspect is a non-starter, but the PR aspect will fester.

EDIT - a sub plot will be how this issue is covered by the D-News.

Seems to me the reasonable thing is to allow such students to stay as long as they abide by the dreaded Honor Code. I guess they would have to pay non-member tuition too, if they formally resign from the church.

[SeattleUte]

Well, now that it's clear which segment of Islam you're saying is like Mormonism, we can have a real conversation. (Forgive me for assuming you were making an invidious comparison. You have to admit you have a track record in that regard.) Also, for the record, I know you were kidding about the merger. I was kidding back atcha.

It's Mormonism's lot to have been born in the United States. I'm sure it would establish a theocracy if it could, and then it would be much more oppressive, dangerous, and relevant.

[LA Ute]

It's Mormonism's lot to have been born in the United States. I'm sure it would establish a theocracy if it could, and then it would be much more oppressive, dangerous, and relevant.

I think you are getting somewhere now. We could replace "LDS" with the acronym ROD. (Relevant, Oppressive, Dangerous). Would you call us M-RODs? That's much better than just "mo's." Maybe "NIMROD" would work. "New Improved Mormonism: Relevant, Oppressive, Dangerous."

[SeattleUte]

Fools mock...


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...erican%20islam

[LA Ute]

Fools mock...


https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...erican%20islam

Have you,um, glanced at the first 5-6 articles that come up at that link?

[SeattleUte]

Have you,um, glanced at the first 5-6 articles that come up at that link?

No. why?

[LA Ute]

No. why?

They're from anti-Mormon sources, or from critics of Mormonism. Maybe the notion that the two faiths are similar is more fodder for critics than a mainstream view. Just something for you to consider. (Not that you would ever apply that notion in such a way.)

[SeattleUte]

They're from anti-Mormon sources, or from critics of Mormonism. Maybe the notion that the two faiths are similar is more fodder for critics than a mainstream view. Just something for you to consider. (Not that you would ever apply that notion in such a way.)

Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

[LA Ute]

Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

Well, both faiths have their roots in the Abrahamic covenant and take that covenant very seriously, more so than any other faith but Judaism, so there is that similarity. The rest of what you say here is very entertaining.

As for Wikipedia, here's the first line of the entry linked:

"Mormonism and Islam have been compared to one another ever since the earliest origins of the former in the nineteenth century, often by detractors of one religion or the other—or both...."

You should be glad that you are not alone in this.

[Rocker Ute]

Wikipedia?

The two faiths are demonstrably similar. Only why that is so is an open question. Islam was a well-known phenomenon even in rural America by 1830, and it is the kind of thing that would have interested JS and Mormonism's other founders. Did it provide a model? Muhammad even had a first vision (granted, in a cave, not a grove, and he was visited by Angel Gabriel, not GF and Jesus). Is there any evidence that LDS founders had an Islamic model in mind? I've never heard that there is, but I haven't looked for it. You could say that the logical or most plausible explanation is that Islam was the model. But I'm willing to entertain a theory that the strains of monotheism that arise in reaction to Pauline Christianity and Euro or Classical based societies look much the same. And there is a lot in history to support this, as we consider not only Mormonism and Islam, but also the radical, ascetic strains of Judaism during the historical Jesus' time (such as the Essenes) that some consider the seeds of Islam, and the ascetic Protestant sects started in more remote places of Northern Europe and other New World sects.

So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

[SeattleUte]

So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

The comparisons I've made are neutral. I don't know why LA presumes the comparison is intended to belittle Mormonism. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why. It smacks of bigotry against Islam or a lack of self-awareness.

With respect to your proposal, I'm sure that no difference is a deal breaker. Indeed, is there any doubt that polygamy would still be in Mormonism but for compulsion of law in America? Why not get all the fasting done during Ramadan and do away with fast Sundays? Fast Sundays are policy, not doctrine, right?

[NorthwestUteFan]

Throw in a Reform Judaism version for the more liberal Mormons, and we would have a deal. Conservatives/fundamentalist Mormons merge with Islam, liberal or more nuanced Mormons merge with Reformers, And everybody is happy.

That way we could all enjoy bacon cheeseburgers and mild barley drinks from craft brewers and pure wine of the grape from local vintners. All that with none of the confusing magic mumbo jumbo.

[LA Ute]

So somewhat similar background makes us perfect bedfellows. I like this line of thinking because it also allows me the simpler path of believing, like that all Asians are bad drivers... which they are.

I'm with LA though, and I'd like to propose that we move forward and form a council where we get to pick the better options of the basically very few diverging beliefs or ones that need some slight tweaking as we combine them. For example, I'm down with Ramadan as it is about a month long, but let's do it more like Christmas where we exchange gifts and eliminate the fasting... and of course we take the time off. Praying multiple times a day seems nice on paper and a good practice, but maybe we switch it around a bit so that maybe we send inspirational quotes 3x a day on social media. Friday or Sunday as a holy day? Why not both? And since we've increased our faith more by observing two holy days, why don't we just do it from sun up to sun down, that way we still have our evening? I can see a whole cottage industry if we find a way to combine burkas with modest t-shirts... we have modest-tees, why not burka-tees, something that is form fitting with lace at the bottom?

I've got lots of other ideas. We can bring this together people.

Now you're talking!

[LA Ute]

Who doesn't like it? Everyone here seems to be in favor. And I want to eat more lamb.

And I want to rock a beard without getting disapproving looks!

[Rocker Ute]

The comparisons I've made are neutral. I don't know why LA presumes the comparison is intended to belittle Mormonism. Islam is more important, older, bigger, richer, etc. The Koran is much more respected as literature than Mormon scriptures. The Islamic brand is probably a lot more valuable. I'm sure it would be the acquiring entity. If Mormons don't like the comparison they should ask themselves why. It smacks of bigotry against Islam or a lack of self-awareness.

With respect to your proposal, I'm sure that no difference is a deal breaker. Indeed, is there any doubt that polygamy would still be in Mormonism but for compulsion of law in America? Why not get all the fasting done during Ramadan and do away with fast Sundays? Fast Sundays are policy, not doctrine, right?

If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sullyute]

If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:applause:

[SeattleUte]

If we get the right people to the table this just might happen. I don't think anyone would view this as belittling Mormonism, in fact it is quite an honor. Of course when we made claims of 1 billion members Trib commentator haters would have to revise their numbers to say, "Sure Russell bin Nelson claims 1 billion members but the actual number is REALLY closer to 200 million and people are leaving in DROVES... What do you expect from I$lam Inc.?"

Could we figure out a way to exempt yourself from home teaching if you made the trip to Mecca for the year? Particularly if you recount the pilgrimage in testimony meeting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re home teaching, do some horse trading with the call to prayer four times a day.

I think what the LDS Church brings to the table is its Western market and goodwill such as it is. It could add a positive touch to the Islamic brand.

No crosses or graven images in LDS buildings is a plus. Minarets should be snap to add.

[mUUser]

A couple of these articles have come across my wife's Facebook the last couple of days. Here's a sampling.....

http://www.inquisitr.com/2979357/byu...s-as-suspects/
http://kutv.com/news/local/byu-stude...ictims-of-rape

I hope there is more here than being reported.

If true, why does the church/BYU insist on digging in and doubling down on this stuff.....ridiculous enforcement of HC with rape victims, baptism of children from gay households, expulsion from BYU for leaving LDS Church. These are just, in my view, 3 of the most recent head scratchers......