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Thread: Medical Views on Pornography

  1. #1
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Medical Views on Pornography

    This is by a medical journalist, not a physician, and he takes much more accepting view of porn than I do. But it is a pretty down-the-middle analysis of the issue. My guess is that the Utah legislators that took the recent action calling porn a public health issue did so to please their base supporters. (Hey, I like to go out on a limb now and then.)

    Is Pornography Creating a Public Health Crisis?

    http://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/20...health-crisis/


    "It's men in shorts." -- Rick Majerus

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    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
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    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  2. #2
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    "Well, I didn't look at any of the studies, but I read an article in Time, and this is what I think."

    I figure pornography is like any other vice - many people can engage without serious consequences. Some percentage, though, will be completely ruined by it. This is how I choose to view vice - I am probably strong enough to enjoy drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc in moderation, but since those things cause a great deal of suffering to a great deal of people, I would rather abstain.

    The real pornography experiment the ongoing one in which children start viewing pornography before they are even capable of sexuality and never stop. The results of this experiment can't really be analyzed for another 20 years or so. The arguments that involve current figures are not particularly enlightening as there is necessarily a long lag effect here. It's a dumb experiment to allow, and we really don't have much of a control group. If it doesn't do harm to the current generation of children, it will mostly be dumb luck that saves them.
    I agree with you. What's interesting to me is the hostility that your point of view arouses in many people.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  3. #3
    I'm looking for the medical part of that article LA posted, and frankly I don't see it. LA, where did you get that thread title?
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  4. #4
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I'm looking for the medical part of that article LA posted, and frankly I don't see it. LA, where did you get that thread title?
    I suppose I could have called it "public health views on pornography." I assume you read the blog post I linked. It is simply a quick and dirty review of studies on the public health aspect of pornography. But let's leave all that picayunish quibbling aside. I want you to spend a few posts here defending pornography on public health grounds. Tell us how great it is, or how harmless it is, to society in general and to the public health.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I agree with you. What's interesting to me is the hostility that your point of view arouses in many people.


    "arouses"??? What have you been watching on your Ipad.

  6. #6
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    "arouses"??? What have you been watching on your Ipad.
    Why, the Book of Mormon, of course:

    Mormon 2:24

    24 And my words did arouse them somewhat to vigor, insomuch that they did not flee from before the Lamanites, but did stand with boldness against them.

    Jacob 3:11

    11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.

    Alma 32:27

    27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Why, the Book of Mormon, of course:

    Mormon 2:24

    24 And my words did arouse them somewhat to vigor, insomuch that they did not flee from before the Lamanites, but did stand with boldness against them.

    Jacob 3:11

    11 O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.

    Alma 32:27

    27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

    touche. good one. (I assume JS did not have an Ipad)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I suppose I could have called it "public health views on pornography." I assume you read the blog post I linked. It is simply a quick and dirty review of studies on the public health aspect of pornography. But let's leave all that picayunish quibbling aside. I want you to spend a few posts here defending pornography on public health grounds. Tell us how great it is, or how harmless it is, to society in general and to the public health.
    Can you just get me some peer reviewed studies showing that it is harmful before we put it on par with real public health problems? No anecdotes. Show me the studies.

  9. #9
    Administrator U-Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concerned View Post
    touche. good one. (I assume JS did not have an Ipad)
    Maybe that's what he used for the translation.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by U-Ute View Post
    Maybe that's what he used for the translation.




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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I suppose I could have called it "public health views on pornography." I assume you read the blog post I linked. It is simply a quick and dirty review of studies on the public health aspect of pornography. But let's leave all that picayunish quibbling aside. I want you to spend a few posts here defending pornography on public health grounds. Tell us how great it is, or how harmless it is, to society in general and to the public health.
    I think in reality it's generally or usually a matter of choice--for the participants in the media as well as the consumers--which is a good thing. I listened to part of that podcast about it, or maybe it was on Netflix, and I was surprised or interested to hear some of the women say that they enjoyed their work including the sexuality of it. I note that the blogger says that there is much porn that is probably healthy. I assume because it provides outlet for frustrated or pent up desire for sex. (You're probably wondering about my personal interest in porn; yes I have checked out porn and I have absolutely no guilt or concern about looking at porn, but in general I find it boring if not outright stupid and unsexy; I much prefer soft core porn with a good story that is somewhat explicit and is integral to the plot; Lust Caution (unrated version) is probably the Holy Grail. I guess my taste is for "porn" that could be defended as art.)

    To the extent there's a public health concern, I agree with the author of the blog that we have much bigger problems and not enough resources to address those bigger problems, and therefore Utah's public health crisis designation is ludicrously overblown--and of course driven by religion. To the extent that porn is misogynistic, I'm not interested and the objective in raising sons is of course to make it uninteresting to them--but I don't think such porn is a public health crisis or increases risk to violence against women; probably pro football is worse for society including in this respect. I don't believe porn harms marriages; it is at most a sign or harmless or helpful byproduct of a deeper, different problem.

    This is one more way the LDS Church has made itself look foolish with its obsession with sex. I've said it should call itself the Anti-Pornography Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

    Also, your use of the word medical was not trivially accidental. The LDS Church would very much like to generate an at least marginally legitimate dialogue over medical issues arising from porn.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 07-08-2016 at 12:36 PM.
    One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike -- and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

    --Albert Einstein

    The fact that life evolved out of nearly nothing, some 10 billion years after the universe evolved out of literally nothing, is a fact so staggering that I would be mad to attempt words to do it justice.

    --Richard Dawkins

    Be kind to all, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle.

    --Philo

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    "Well, I didn't look at any of the studies, but I read an article in Time, and this is what I think."

    I figure pornography is like any other vice - many people can engage without serious consequences. Some percentage, though, will be completely ruined by it. This is how I choose to view vice: I am probably strong enough to enjoy drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc in moderation, but since those things cause a great deal of suffering to a great deal of people, I would rather abstain.

    The real pornography experiment is the ongoing one in which children start viewing pornography before they are even capable of sexuality and never stop. The results of this experiment can't really be analyzed for another 20 years or so. The arguments that involve current figures are not particularly enlightening as there is necessarily a long lag effect. It's a dumb experiment to allow, and we don't have much of a control group. If it doesn't do harm to the current generation of children, it will mostly be dumb luck that saves them.
    Why would children suddenly start watching porn?

    It's always been around. Its always been on tv, in magazines, etc. Its always been up to parents to shield/protect until their child was old enough to make their own decisions.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Why would children suddenly start watching porn?

    It's always been around. Its always been on tv, in magazines, etc. Its always been up to parents to shield/protect until their child was old enough to make their own decisions.
    You can't be this naive.


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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker Ute View Post
    You can't be this naive.


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    Seriously? Now that we have the Internet, six year olds will grow up watching porn on a consistent basis?

    Give people credit. Why would children be viewing porn before they mature sexuality?

    Yeah, it's on computers now. It was on dad's videotapes in his sock drawer and in older brothers magazines under his mattress before.

    It all comes down to parenting and being a smart parent. Instead of locking your sock drawer before, you place guards in the computers (which I've done) and passwords in the television (which I've done).

    Life goes on. And the more things change, the more they stay the same.

    There has been pornography for as long as we could scratch breasts into the dirt. This isn't a new problem.

  15. #15
    I don't know much about you and my perspective on your point of view is very limited.

    Are you from Utah? Do you currently live in Utah? Did you grow up here? Are you LDS?

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post
    Seriously? Now that we have the Internet, six year olds will grow up watching porn on a consistent basis?

    Give people credit. Why would children be viewing porn before they mature sexuality?

    Yeah, it's on computers now. It was on dad's videotapes in his sock drawer and in older brothers magazines under his mattress before.

    It all comes down to parenting and being a smart parent. Instead of locking your sock drawer before, you place guards in the computers (which I've done) and passwords in the television (which I've done).

    Life goes on. And the more things change, the more they stay the same.

    There has been pornography for as long as we could scratch breasts into the dirt. This isn't a new problem.
    A client called me up as I suppose I'm the only 'tech' person she may know. Her story was that her 8yo daughter had a friend over for a sleepover. They got on the computer and looked at some porn, now she was having trouble 'getting it off her computer' and asked if I could help.

    So I went by her house and checked out the kids computer (kids should not have an unmonitored computer btw). It was not a one time thing, this 8yo had been looking at the most hardcore and vile stuff - stuff I hadn't even heard of or could imagine - for months and months, hours a day.

    Like you I wouldn't have thought an 8yo could be addicted like that but she was, and has been going to years of therapy.

    This story is hardly unique. I was talking to a judge in my neighborhood and he said the average age for a child to be exposed to hardcore pornography is 8.

    I successfully navigated childhood with never seeing porn, it wasn't in my dad's sock drawer and to my knowledge my siblings didn't have it either. To get porn you had to go to a store and look some guy in the eye and buy it. Certainly it wasn't hours upon hours of stuff so extreme it would make UF.n blush. So I'm guessing even if you did find your dad's collection it was likely a couple of magazines and nothing on the scale of what is readily available today.

    And the truth is today it isn't a matter of if your child is exposed to porn but when. And it is in places where you might think is safe to go like Twitter and YouTube.

    Now I don't know about you, but I don't want my kids learning about human sexuality in that way or thinking that most of the stuff that girl saw was remotely normal behavior. That kid is very messed up because of a naive parent. And yes I am LDS, but society agrees that exposure to hardcore porn at that age is not acceptable.

    So going back, please, if you have children get informed, don't be so naive as to think that an 8yo can't be harmed or addicted to it.


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  17. #17
    I agree that's it's much easier to find now a days.

    Do you live in Utah?

    The reason why I ask is that I grew up outside of Utah in a non-LDS home. None of my friends were LDS.

    When I was a young Lad (around 8), one if my best friend's father had naked women on posters in their garage. Again, when I was 11, one of my other friend's older brother showed us a nudie magazine. All of my friend's fathers had porn on VHS.

    My point? The LDS community is definitely sheltered when it comes to this type of stuff. Outside of the community where the heathens reside, it's not the end all be all that LDS folk paint it out to be.

    It's naked women. Jacking off as a 13 year old doesn't lead to a life of addiction, raping women, and demons controlling your body, no matter what your bishop tells you.

    My point is this: porn has always been around. Sure, it's easier for kids to get access to it, especially LDS kids, than before. BUT, there are ways to protect against it. And just because porn is easier to find, doesn't mean all 6 year olds are watching it all the time.

    Honestly, my first thought was when you told your story: "Dad must be using little Susie's computer to yank his crank."

    Here is another thought:

    How many of you parents would let your kid sleep over at someone of the opposite's sex's house when they are 12?

    How many would let your kids go to rated R movies?

    How many would let your kids take cross country trips alone?

    Sounds ridiculous, right?

    So why do you let your kids have unrestricted access to the Internet? Crazy, right?

    My kids have access to about 5 websites and that's it. If they need/want to go anywhere else, they do it supervised.

    It's called being a parent.

    If the library had Playboys next to the encyclopedias, would let your kid wander through the library alone?

    Nope, you'd be sitting over their shoulder watching what they do.

    So, why do you let them research stuff in the Internet without your supervision?

  18. #18
    Utah, you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On one hand you say porn is no big deal, then you say your kids can only look at 5 websites and you supervise the rest. So obviously you believe it is a problem (although I might argue that your heavy-handedness also may foster resentment in the future). I had friends whose dad had porn in the house but I could successfully avoid it for the most part, certainly didn't dwell on it or let it take hours of my day. Even still, I'm fairly certain whatever may have been in my friends homes wasn't live action stuff with three guys and a girl and fecal matter.

    Your suspicion that it was dear old dad looking at the porn, dad isn't around, it is a single mom. Plus the girl confessed to watching horrible horrible stuff and now goes to therapy for it, her views on human sexuality are skewed badly.

    Your claim that it has 'always been around' actually it hasn't. It was about 35 years ago the first VHS machine was in common circulation, and film projectors maybe 70 years ago. Printed pornography maybe 150 years ago. So no, it isn't natural and it isn't part of our genetic makeup. Certainly the graphic stuff this little girl was viewing shouldn't be considered normal ever. I can judge this single-mom for her failures, but like you, she thought 'what 8yo would be looking at that stuff'.

    For some people they can look at porn and no big deal, for many many others it becomes if not an addiction, an obsession. I'll just say that if my wife sincerely asked me to stop doing anything, I'd stop even if I didn't want to because I love her. If she said to me, "No more Utah sports..." I'd stop. I'm not saying I'd be happy, but I'd stop. But you have guys who are addicted to porn, who love their wives, whose wives ask them to stop and simply can not - even though they really really want to, at least not without help through 12 step programs etc. Or the guys who are looking at porn at work, despite risking losing their jobs and ruining their reputations. These are all signs that this is a very real issue.

    Nobody said anything about raping anyone, or being controlled by demons and your attempts to minimize it is ridiculous. It has nothing to do with what my bishop has to say about it either, as he hasn't said anything about it. I won't even get into the issue of the objectification of women that porn presents. But it has everything to do with addiction and harming healthy relationships.

    You do what you want to screw up your kids, but if I can deliver my kids to adulthood being basically shielded from that crap and give them the tools they need to deal with it when they encounter it, I'll do it. If I can teach my daughters some self-respect and that they don't need to be objects of sexual desire and that sex is a consensual expression of love, I'm going to do that. If I can teach my son the same and to respect women and they aren't objects of lust, I'm doing that too.

  19. #19
    I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm saying that porn has always been available to kids who want to watch it and because porn has always been available for kids who want to watch it, it should be the parent's job to monitor what their kids are doing and try to limit those opportunities. And because there are new ways for kids to watch it (the internet) parents need to be aware of that and take proper steps to prevent that from happening.

    Addiction to porn and looking at porn are two very different things. This is a very mormon way of looking at things. Someone looked at porn...they must be addicted. That's just not reality. Just because you have a beer after work doesn't mean you are addicted. Just because you watch some porn with your wife trying to spice things up doesn't mean you are addicted to porn. Just because some single guy/girl comes home and jacks off to an internet video doesn't mean they are addicted.

    200 years ago we were marrying 14 year olds...and some of us marrying more than one. It's always been around. Brothels have always been around. Porn has always been around. It has always been around. There has always been an "issue" (depending on your point of view) when it comes to sexuality, sex outside of marriage, sex between men, etc. These issues aren't new.

    I'm glad you would stop doing something your wife doesn't want you to do. Again, you are talking about two separate issues. One is kids growing up looking at porn. Another is people being addicted to something.

    Nice straw man bringing up the objectification of women argument. Has nothing to do with what we are talking about, which is whether or not kids watch more porn now than they did 10 or 20 years ago, but it sounded really nice. Especially when you brought it all together in your closing paragraph that was so off topic I'm not even sure if you remember what the original discussion was.

    Then, your final statement is absolutely ridiculous. I was hoping to have an adult conversation...Guess not.

    Even though I've stated that I shield my kids from things (probably more than you do, my kids have the limits on the internet that I would bet yours don't, they have never seen an PG-13 movie, etc), you jump to the conclusion that because I don't believe that kids are suddenly running out and watching porn when they are 6 years old that I will screw up my kids' lives.

    lol. Come on man. Time for me to realize that a good conversation isn't going to be had and move on.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Utah View Post

    Time for me to realize that a good conversation isn't going to be had and move on.

    Yeah, you aren't reading what I said anyway, putting words in my mouth and now are suddenly talking about brothels, homosexuality etc.; the intelligent conversation train left the station a long time ago.




    Just because you claim something has 'always been around' (it hasn't) also doesn't mean it is okay, and to go back to sancho's point, the effects of the prevalence and nature of porn readily available to youth today won't be known for a number of years.

  21. #21
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sancho View Post
    Not for everyone, no, but certainly for some. Works like other addictions.
    Op-ed in the SL Tribune challenges a lot of the current pop psychology floating around about porn and addiction.

    Here's the op-ed:
    http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/440913...-need-real-sex

    Here's the study mentioned in the op-ed that casts doubts on sex addiction:
    http://www.socioaffectiveneuroscipsy...ew/20770/28995

    Here's the study mentioned that connects religiosity & moral disapproval with perceived addiction to pornography (regardless of actual amounts of pornography consumed).
    http://link.springer.com/article/10....-0257-z#page-1
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  22. #22
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    I don't know if it's an addiction but I sure am interested in my daughter knowing, before she marries a guy, if he's deeply into the stuff and can't or won't leave it alone, and whether it has shaped his view of what sexual intimacy is all about. Some of you who also have daughters may see it differently.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    ....Some of you who also have daughters may see it differently.

    I have a couple of daughters in college, and my overriding concern is they don't fall in love with someone who struggles with anger. Domestic abuse is probably my greatest fear for them. I'm stunned at how quickly anger escalates for a lot of people. You see it on the road every day.

    Having said that, I'm with you on this. I don't see how viewing porn can strengthen a relationship, and would advise my girls to steer clear of a guy that views pornography. Whether it's an addiction or not is irrelevant to me. Maybe its a compulsion, a vice or an interest. Whatever it is, I hope my girls don't get involved with a user of it.
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  24. #24
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mUUser View Post
    I have a couple of daughters in college, and my overriding concern is they don't fall in love with someone who struggles with anger. Domestic abuse is probably my greatest fear for them. I'm stunned at how quickly anger escalates for a lot of people. You see it on the road every day.

    Having said that, I'm with you on this. I don't see how viewing porn can strengthen a relationship, and would advise my girls to steer clear of a guy that views pornography. Whether it's an addiction or not is irrelevant to me. Maybe its a compulsion, a vice or an interest. Whatever it is, I hope my girls don't get involved with a user of it.
    Anger is at the top of my list. I agree with you.


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    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  25. #25
    Malleus Cougarorum Solon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Anger is at the top of my list. I agree with you.
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    With me, ugliness is the deal-breaker.
    I tell my daughters to marry attractive. Personality wears off after awhile and your spouse will definitely drive you nuts eventually.
    You can still get a lot out of a marriage when the person giving you the silent treatment is smoking hot.
    σοφῷ ἀνδρὶ Ἑλλὰς πάντα.
    -- Flavius Philostratus, Life of Apollonius 1.35.2.

  26. #26
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    With me, ugliness is the deal-breaker.
    I tell my daughters to marry attractive. Personality wears off after awhile and your spouse will definitely drive you nuts eventually.
    You can still get a lot out of a marriage when the person giving you the silent treatment is smoking hot.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    With me, ugliness is the deal-breaker.
    I tell my daughters to marry attractive. Personality wears off after awhile and your spouse will definitely drive you nuts eventually.
    You can still get a lot out of a marriage when the person giving you the silent treatment is smoking hot.

    How truly shallow you are. Looks don't matter, because everybody loses them or get botox. I tell my daughters to marry rich, and make sure her parents get some of it.

    Every father's worst nightmare: his daughter marries Anthony Wiener, homely, poor, and mentally ill.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I don't know if it's an addiction but I sure am interested in my daughter knowing, before she marries a guy, if he's deeply into the stuff and can't or won't leave it alone, and whether it has shaped his view of what sexual intimacy is all about. Some of you who also have daughters may see it differently.
    If that is a requirement, then you can rest assured that your daughter is doing to marry a liar.

  29. #29
    Sam the Sheepdog LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthwestUteFan View Post
    If that is a requirement, then you can rest assured that your daughter is doing to marry a liar.
    Missing_the_point.png

    I simply hope she knows about it if a guy she's seriously considering marrying is deeply into porn and can't or won't leave it alone, and it has shaped his view of what sexual intimacy is all about. A pretty modest hope, I think.

    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

    "Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold."
    --Yeats

    “True, we [lawyers] build no bridges. We raise no towers. We construct no engines. We paint no pictures - unless as amateurs for our own principal amusement. There is little of all that we do which the eye of man can see. But we smooth out difficulties; we relieve stress; we correct mistakes; we take up other men's burdens and by our efforts we make possible the peaceful life of men in a peaceful state.”

    --John W. Davis, founder of Davis Polk & Wardwell

  30. #30
    Oh well that is different. 'Deeply into the stuff' is another thing all together. (Although 'deeply' is still a highly subjective measurement)

    The percentage of people who are on the Plan of Fappiness who are actually addicted to the point where they cannot leave it alone, to the point where it affects their work life, etc, is actually very low. Certainly an order or two of magnitude lower than the church's statements would make one think. The institutionalized shame is more damaging than is actually having a wank.

    Any young, single adult who claims to never do that is either asexual/has a low sex drive, or is a facile liar of Mike Pence proportions.

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